Progression of removal of play options on Arm

[Incognito]

When I started playing Arm over a decade ago, the game was HUGE, the options were so numerous - that it was difficult not to be in awe of such an extensive game world in a text-based game.

The decision to close off Tuluk for PC play, is a milestone - that makes me sad and apprehensive.

Over the years, we've had so many playable options removed from the game world, it makes me wonder if these were really needed, and where the game is eventually headed.

In a not-chronologically-correct order - things that have been removed/modified from gameplay (either ICLY or OOCLY):
Mantis clutches
Gith tribes
Entire halfling society
Slave PCs
Mul mages (first) and then mul slaves
Blackwing tribe
Siltwinds
Dune Stalkers
Sand Jakhals
Red Fangs
Restrictions on d-elf mage play (via spec app and pre-approved only)
Haruch Kemad clan
Red Storm East
Undertuluk
Restrictions/changes to many psionicist skills
Removal of certain tribal clans
Tan Muark curtailment
Tyn Dashra
Consolidation of Tuluki templar order
Removal of some Whiran spells
Restrictions on casting inside cities
Restrictions on certain travel spells
Automated city defenses for magicks and psionics
Full sorcerors
And now - Tuluk in its entirety with all the clans that go with it.

Now, this post is not meant as a rant, or to make the top tier of Staff members look bad.

It's an honest assessment of what we're heading towards, and have been for some time now.

Sure - there HAVE been certain clans which have been added, or re-opened for play - and that is always a good thing!

The whole allure of ArmageddonMud - was and always has been the vibrant Zalanthas-spanning diversity, but it appears to be getting more and more restricted as time passes by.

Personally I'm of the opinion, that if given the chance, I'd swap the current play world for the world which existed pre-2004 era in a heartbeat! And thats just my 0.02!

In any case, being the hardcore Armer that I am - I will wait and watch - and see where this new direction leads us.....

[Narf]

While I personally am wary of how many things are being removed from play, this sort of list isn't fair or useful without a list of what's been added. I think reduction in net options is a more important value when looking at this sort of issue.

[Patuk]

A lot of things have been added, this is true, but I'd like to see how much of that isn't universal code. That is, the Akei'ta Var being reopened certainly would count, but I don't think something like the bury code, despite it being a great addition, has a place on a list like that.

[Bast]

I miss a lot of the things that are gone. I certainly missing having more magick in the game. I am honestly NOT interested in playing in game setting that basically a bunch of normal people running around doing normal human stuff. I do wish we could find a happy magick middle ground and I as someone who played what most people consider one of the powerful mages from the 2007 era I do feel that the their was too much magick craziness. I would like see some of the reaches back in the game and Elemantals talking again though. Its like we tilted from one extreme to the other. I wish we had more race options and I wish the game wasn't so' and Humans rules basically everything ever because' . I honestly don't think Humans are that great on IRL level. Also 90% of game settings are basically set up in a human dominated world where the Elves are in decline and the other races are just sorta..like..there.  

That said; I think the Staff does have the games better intentions at heart and it has gotten better recently. I was very close to never coming back last time time I took an extended break but I am happy I did. Its good to see staff running plots again and it makes me hopeful about the stuff that I really miss. This game belongs to all of us but I will promise you its highly unlikely any of us share all the exact same ideas on the direction we want our mud to go. As a storyteller for table tops games I can tell you nothing hurts more than hearing your players think your out to get them or mess up the game. Anyone has staffed this game for free for over a year isn't doing to it out of anything but love for it. Tuluk isn't gone forever I think they likely just need to make some really big changes to make it work better for us and for them. To do that without stepping all over PC's in the game who might be seriously upset their clan is changing or going away its just easier to close the city down and have big stuff go on behind the magic curtain. I'm having to store a PC I am really enjoying right now so yes it sucks but I have Faith in Staff and I know a lot of them care a great deal about Tuluk and this wasn't easy on them either.

Also Mantis's just aren't playable they have Hive mind and half their communication is sending emotions to each other...The Halflings I miss though.

I don't know sometimes I just feel like we never recovered from the Arm 2 announcement but I would like to think the game is coming back from that.

[Narf]

A lot of things have been added, this is true, but I'd like to see how much of that isn't universal code. That is, the Akei'ta Var being reopened certainly would count, but I don't think something like the bury code, despite it being a great addition, has a place on a list like that.

I'd tend to agree with this method of analysis. Compare things according to category. Code additions can't be meaningfully compared to a clan or location subtraction. This isn't to say they're less important, but rather they're just a different category of effect on gameplay.

That said, there have been clan and location additions that are comparable to things that have been removed. The additional rooms in the Rinth, the new player created clans, the Akei'ta Var, etc...

[Barzalene]

I agree  the loss of elementals feels like a diminishment. I've always been a player that prefers mundanes, and feels that the choice to play magickers accepts the premise of social repercussions. But it should still be cool and powerful. Elementals were cool and powerful.

[LauraMars]

Streamlining is something I consider to be a good positive thing imo.  I like any change that further consolidates our playerbase since conflict and interaction make the world go round for me - I'd hate the game to be like some RPIs that are full of huge amounts of content but you can never find anybody in the places you go.  But a lot of things have been added too that enhance play in an extreme way, like extended subguilds, choice of both starting background and starting location, additional skills and crafting (pottery!), unique areas for plots, revamping of certain areas, additional wildlife, and that's just recently.

[Jeax]

Yeah, this is a matter of game design. If all of those things were still open, you would have 1-2 people in each of them somewhere, or some of them just not in use at all, and people wouldn't be having as much fun as if it was consolidated.

Consolidation sucks at the time, but I think it has always been for the better of the future. I am skeptical about the most recent consolidation, but that's not because it's a consolidation, but more because of how conflict and such will be treated going forward. It could be done greatly and really be a bonus to the game, or it could be done poorly and be a huge sap. As far as the decision to consolidate Tuluk, I think it was a solid one. I was excited to see the ATV reopen, I think that's awesome, and as Talia showed in some statistics, we are seeing growth, but we're not the same as we were some years ago (2006-2008?). I have faith that if we see growth enough, certain things will open back up. As just another example, I think being a desert-elf would suck if Sand Jakhals, Red Fangs, Blackwing and everything was still open. At times, even with just the Sun Runners and the Soh Lanah Kah, the Soh usually have about 3 people, and the SRs at times are buzzing, and other times it's very, very slow and lonely. If there were 5-6 active tribes, as I said earlier, you would just have 1-2 people in each, and people would not have a lot of fun.

There really is a game design dynamic to all of this, about making sure that things are interacting and have the ability work together in a way that is convenient, and sometimes that's a tall order. To then try to do it in a way that makes everyone happy is just going to be impossible. Instead of then focusing on the negatives as a player about what we've lost, it is most beneficial to see what opportunities a larger playerbase in certain areas brings. As soon as I saw the post that Tuluk was closing for example, I was like "I should app a merchant in Red Storm right now, and crank up an indie crew." -- I am 100% confident this idea would have been a success, because of the influx of players that will be coming down. I didn't do it, I'm playing something else that I think will also be interesting with the influx of players coming in, in an effort to get them involved in plots as they come.

[Incognito]

While I personally am wary of how many things are being removed from play, this sort of list isn't fair or useful without a list of what's been added. I think reduction in net options is a more important value when looking at this sort of issue.

The point - wasn't to be fair or unfair to anyone or to any group of people. And the idea behind the post was definitely not to compare removals v/s additions. It was just to highlight the list of diminished options - which have been the soul of the game world for so many years and have contributed to the entire "feel" of Arm.

Yes, things will change, and the game will move forward. But that doesn't mean that we cannot feel sad and reminisce about past days and glories. And feel a pinch - that new players will never be able to experience what we did, over the course of these wonderful years.

[Nyr]

We were discussing this a bit last night upon seeing another slippery slope argument leading towards the inevitable heat death of the universe, and we did have some ideas on how to get there faster.  In order to achieve maximum player density, everyone will be limited to playing in one place:  The Gaj.  We will expand it, making it 300 rooms.  Each room will be a different table.  You can sleep under the tables, no need for apartments.  We will split staff into four teams, each handling one quarter of the Gaj.  We will remove combat code in favor of brawl code.  Winner of the brawl gets to play Vennant, but only on Barani.  Maximum player density?  Achieved.  Interaction?  Optimized.

But seriously, yes, things have changed.  Sometimes the grass looks greener because there was a septic tank under the lawn.  The game also used to have a drow city and an illusionist guild and grassy lands just outside of Allanak; I don't see those on the list...

It's good to reminisce on the past days.  It's also good to think hopefully about what is to come.  Builders, more consolidated staff, and more staff time spent on things that matter.

[Ktavialt]

Kerblammo.

[Malken]

An ArmageddonMud with just one room and where players are only given a flint knife and loincloth to begin with is actually my dream RPI.

[Cavaticus]

Some things contract, other things expand.

An example: yes, in some ways magickal classes have been restricted. On the other hand, the additions of extended subguilds, CGP skill bumps, and a codified spec app system have increased the options for all classes (mundane and magickal both) tenfold.

[valeria]

I was going to make a similar post at one point in the party when I was feeling pretty sour grapes about something (I can't even remember what now, but it was probably the sorcerer change or maybe a celf issue).  I think it's undeniable that playable options have been removed from the game.  But I think staff has done a better job of adding options as well lately, and bringing old options back as warranted.  I mean, at one point both Tor and that one delf tribe that recently opened were closed.  So I do think it needs to be examined in light of options that have also been added.

[Molten Heart]

Things get removed over time and should be balanced with new additions. I think because of the announcement of the Reborn game (9-10 years ago) the game began to suffer because most building and creative efforts in this game were put on hold. Many of the players have long memories but I think staff have been slowly adding new welcome additions. We'll see where they go. I'm thinking maybe the game will start moving towards what more of Arm Reborn was supposed to be like and it would seem like staff aren't giving any spoilers so I for one am going to just see what happens, but at least things seem to be happening. :-)

[Adhira]

When you list things so categorically it seems like everything has been taken away all at once. Some of those things were in existence 20 years ago, and taken away 15 years ago. Some of them weren't introduced to the game till 10 years ago, and taken away 5 years ago.
So it really is hard to make a good comparison of things that were 'removed' from the game, and the playability of the game because of that, in the same way that it's hard to weigh up the additions of the game vs what has been removed.

Some things on the list actually still exist, they just don't exist in a free for all form

Take mul slaves for example. These are still playable. You can special app to a clan that might have those and ask to play one. Staff also put out calls to see if people wish to play them. So they aren't removed from the game, they are just much more limited than they might have been 10 years ago.

Some closures within the game world are also cyclical. We've closed down things like Tor, the Atrium, the ATV and just recently reopened them.  There are other things on that list you have that with more time may see similar treatment.

[Revenant]

Sad to see Tuluk go, especially after a significant staff investment. It honestly looked like a great place to play, I gave it another shot, and, I can sort of see the potential problems that made closing the area, for now, the best possible solution. More than anything, I feel bad for the players of some of the sponsored roles that can't leave, but hey, I think staff left some wiggle room in there for them to be able to arrange their plots to move on to new lands, didn't they? I would love to see some of these inspired and inspiring characters continue to exist, though I think, sadly, many may vanish.

With any luck, though, the increased population of the other areas will lead to more interesting interactions and less downtime sitting at the bar and sipping a mug. I don't know though, kind of taking a break for now so, maybe I'll see it whenever the break is over.

[wizturbo]

I agree  the loss of elementals feels like a diminishment. I've always been a player that prefers mundanes, and feels that the choice to play magickers accepts the premise of social repercussions. But it should still be cool and powerful. Elementals were cool and powerful.

Just an FYI, elemental interaction (with staff assistance of course) is possible.  It's just different.  Find out IC.

[Bast]

I agree  the loss of elementals feels like a diminishment. I've always been a player that prefers mundanes, and feels that the choice to play magickers accepts the premise of social repercussions. But it should still be cool and powerful. Elementals were cool and powerful.

Just an FYI, elemental interaction (with staff assistance of course) is possible.  It's just different.  Find out IC.

Different is one way to put it 

[BadSkeelz]

I had an elemental throw a rock at me so hard that my character got propelled out of the room - this was within the last 3 years. Have heard of other incidences since then. They still seem around.

[AdamBlue]

Eventually, the RP will be limited to humans and the only play option will be the 'rinth because Allanak is too player friendly.

[Semper]

I'm content to wait and see what'll happen. The concerns are real, but it seems that it's all perhaps a bit too early to be making conclusions. So what if Arm is changing, any good game will require changes to keep up-to-date. So long as we have the right staff and player-base.

[palomar]

I agree  the loss of elementals feels like a diminishment. I've always been a player that prefers mundanes, and feels that the choice to play magickers accepts the premise of social repercussions. But it should still be cool and powerful. Elementals were cool and powerful.

Just an FYI, elemental interaction (with staff assistance of course) is possible.  It's just different.  Find out IC.

Different is one way to put it 

I imagine how those things work was changed after the End of the World plotline, and probably also in some small, yet significant part due to player abuse.

We've had quite a few awesome code additions over the years, but we've also seen a lot of in game stuff being removed or drastically changed. I'm hoping to see more in game additions because what I've personally experienced in that field in recent years has been great.

[Delirium]

Definitely replace a few of the quit-safe wilderness rooms that got zorched. It is incredibly annoying being a non-ranger in the wilds - it's not just "lol you shouldn't be out there" it's "some character concepts require being out in the wilderness when you're not a class ranger and having nowhere to quit out unless you quit OOC (and you can't do that more than once in a row HAHA) is fucking OOCly annoying and does not represent the in-character ability of your PC to take care of themselves" and I forget exactly where I was going with this but it's an OOC annoyance not a "ooh cool the game is harsh" feature. Make the harshness represent itself in active threats not "lol you can't leave you silly person".

Okay back to work.

[BadSkeelz]

I wonder if the Quit rooms outside the Tuluki gates will still be there

[wizturbo]

Different is one way to put it  

Honestly, having experienced elementals in the past and present (I played the Templar in the "Communion" original submission for instance) I can't say the present is significantly different in a negative way.  The change is relatively minor, but again, find out IC.  Of course, all of this has always required a willing staff member to participate.

This assumes you're not talking about the things that happened back in the End of the World plot lines where things went pretty bonkers on the magick front, that was obviously a lot different.  I'd like to see some of this "bonkers" stuff reintroduced to the game, as long as steps are taken to keep it from getting out of hand or disruptive to the relatively low-fantasy setting.

[Wday]

How magick was done and change to now seems good. I understand the back in the day end of the world stuff.
I got to see a lot of it back then. Now days it is poison and believe you get five periane at starting point?

[Zoan]

All these reductions are starting to smell strongly of SoI and its eventual demise.

[Malken]

All these reductions are starting to smell strongly of SoI and its eventual demise.

Yeah I was thinking about that too. Same happened with Harshlands when they tried to squeeze everyone in Tashal.

[Marauder Moe]

In any case, are these measures not a symptom of a diminished/ing player population, rather than the cause?

It was made pretty clear that the fact that we're not at 2006 population levels is a factor.  Seems to me that if we want Tuluk back all we have to do is recruit and retain ~50 more players.   

[Malken]

And the retarded players like myself need to man up and become great Staff potential instead of being a beacon of immaturity and negativity.

[wizturbo]

All of these changes are reversible.  I think it'll be easy to see if the game is lacking without Tuluk, and if it is, all of this can be undone.

I think my favorite part about these changes is the reduced emphasis on PvP Tuluk vs. Allanak, and a focus on more PvE combat plots and PvP political plots.  Huge epic things will be much easier to do for all parties involved when there is only one city to worry about.

I also love the fact that I might find people to play with at all hours of the day and night.

[RogueGunslinger]

I also love the fact that I might find people to play with at all hours of the day and night.

I have nothing much to add to this thread, but I just agree with this. It's what I look forward to the most, and seems to be taking place already even though tuluk is still open(maybe people are just excited and decided to log in last night like me). I was up really late last night playing in an area that I never see people. Probably coincidence, but still. There's excitement, and I think that shows in the playerbase.

[path]

The good Ginka giveth and the good Ginka taketh away.

All hail!

[Gaare]

I always thought single city-state could be awesome.  Even though, Tuluk was my far favourite, it's Allanak where Zalanthas' heart is.  On the other hand, possible problem would be creation of quests and plots along wilderness. I hate when every single thing is ran by IMMs. Crowded city may and hopefully will mean more powerful PCs; Red Robes, Senior Merchants&Nobles, etc. Also after end of Tuluk, I really hope to see some factions outside 'nak high walls flourish. I kinda hope and expect to see playable gith&mantis tribes now. Even maybe some serious bandit clan.

[FantasyWriter]

The good Ginka giveth and the good Ginka taketh away.

All hail!

<3

I'm cool with the Tuluki closure trial. Lots of players have suggested it over the years.  I feel like the only real down side (but a very significant one) is the feels of the players and staff who favor Tuluk and have but so much work into the revamp and the time they spend keeping their PCs out there keeping tuluk alive and active.
I hope we don't loose any players over it like we have some of the changes in the past.

Some selfish ideas/musings that I think would help add options/content for non-city favoring PCs.

Maybe it's me transitioning into a grizzled not-noobie, but the sands feel so much smaller, less magickal (in a figurative sense) than they did a decade ago.
The extended subguilds have been a big help for desert pcs because you know longer have to always choose between "the skill set that best fits my PCs BG/Goals" and "what keeps my PC alive" but as a player with a high PC turnover (and someone who likes playing the occasional higher karma role), I don't get to use them as often as I would like.

I think a trial reopening of the gith would be a good move for livening up the deserts around or new sole city state as well as offer a truly "different" role to play every once in a while.  I would much prefer to being confronted by a PC gith than a MOB.  As an occasional player of raider PCs, it's next to impossible to play a successful outdoors antagonist without being sniffed/whirand/templard before you have the time to being a real threat. (PS-I've never PKd or been PKd in a PvP raider scene, like so many people seem to think is the standard.)
In the words of the great Blackmoon Captain Reynolds: "You all wanna be looking very intently at your own belly buttons. I see a head start to rise, violence is going to ensue."

More quit rooms please. When a delf or gicker can check out every quit or save room in a zone in a single game day, it's a little unrealistic (though IMO perfectly IC for them to want to do). Or make some way to make short-lived quit rooms through a very long-delay command that adds a campsite to the room that degrades over time unless maintained. (code discussion thread incoming).

New short lived places to explore or resources to exploit.  Put a bug in the appropriate clan leader's ear from a scout. Or throw an echo up to to said scout or explorer PCs that they see something strange off to the east.

[Jihelu]

When did we get rid of Fire kank pcs?

[frankjacoby]

I have been reading a LOT of posts and replies going back as far as the board will allow and I see 2 different things here:

1. Players are on the decline, Why?
    A. Graphic intensive games
    B. Better console games
    C. Better human interaction on those multi - player games which allow gaming headsets (Easier communication)
    D. Perception of favoritism leading to rage quits

2.  A. Lack of transparency and a majority of PC's being on the outs

3.  A lack of understanding of what is expected

4.  A Misunderstanding / misinterpretation of someone else's roleplay / A tendency to prefer some roleplaying styles over others

Either way, I see a divide between players and staff and I personally don't think there is a way to resolve this quickly.
Personally, I took a few steps back from the game, but I am interested in seeing the direction of the game before I make a final decision.

That being said, I think that there should be more opportunities granted to people with less or no Karma as it allows them to feel like they
are contributing to the game, instead of the same old group that keeps rolling out there and dying quickly or retiring from the sponsored roles
while those who would be more dedicated would have the opportunity to show that we/they are willing to contribute to the game.

My 0.01 worth

[Nyr]

That being said, I think that there should be more opportunities granted to people with less or no Karma as it allows them to feel like they
are contributing to the game, instead of the same old group that keeps rolling out there and dying quickly or retiring from the sponsored roles
while those who would be more dedicated would have the opportunity to show that we/they are willing to contribute to the game.

We have a certain amount of those opportunities out there already.  If broken down, they'd probably look like this:

Roles requiring trust or at least staff familiarity with your account and play and history:  Templar; maybe nobles
Roles that are much easier for you to prove yourself in provided you've got leadership chops and are willing to communicate: Everything else; maybe nobles

The amount of trust required for someone playing a templar is much higher than the amount of trust required for almost every other role, so that can create a barrier to entry if staff just don't know about how you play.  Nobles do require an amount of trust, but they do not directly/codedly control life and death within a wide swath of territory, so I would not lump them into either category.  I've seen nobles get approved from accounts that had 0-2 karma (it happens more often than you might think), especially if they've had a history of communication and leadership ability.  Every other role is very accessible to players without karma (or with low karma) and can also be attained in-game.  You can become a Byn Sergeant simply by playing, surviving, and being a good leader IC.  You can become an Agent for a GMH the same way.  You can rise to the ranks of leadership in almost any clan as a human; you might not be the noble or templar in charge, but you would have IC power.

You don't necessarily need to rise to IC leadership to prove that you can play a noble or templar.  It does help very much for you to establish yourself as a player who, over time, grows and learns from mistakes, and seeks out to involve (and be involved with) other characters.  The best advice I can offer:  apply for roles.  Being turned down is not the end of the world.  We often (99% of the time, now, if not more) will not explain why we didn't pick you or give constructive feedback because it is not solicited (and it can get taken the wrong way).  If you do want feedback, we can give it--just ask.

[IntuitiveApathy]

I also love the fact that I might find people to play with at all hours of the day and night.

I have nothing much to add to this thread, but I just agree with this. It's what I look forward to the most, and seems to be taking place already even though tuluk is still open(maybe people are just excited and decided to log in last night like me). I was up really late last night playing in an area that I never see people. Probably coincidence, but still. There's excitement, and I think that shows in the playerbase.

As an off-peak player in recent years, I can also say that this is the result that I am most looking forward to.  The main lure of Armageddon is player interaction - without it there's myriad single-player games that are better in ways that Armageddon cannot be.  But try as I may, I have yet to find an experience that can match Armageddon when I'm able to actually regularly play with other people in this crazy desert playground.  I'd say there certainly is some sort of tipping point where there's "enough" interaction available in a given area at a given time - the problem with off-peakers is that encountering that point is kind of like winning the lottery, since you must not only pick the right location, but also the right role.  Choose wrongly and things could be going on elsewhere, but you weren't around to be a part of it.  This problem isn't necessarily limited to off-peak players (though certainly exacerbated for them) given how big the world is even after the closure of Tuluk.

I've been playing Armageddon for over 20 years, and I can say that while it was nice to have options available to play a range of different roles in the game in the past, much of the time I wouldn't choose them anyway, knowing that I wouldn't be able to get the interaction needed to make the role actually fun for the majority of the time I'd play it.  This is true even for the time I was a peak player, which I was for the majority of those years.  If I wanted to only have fun 1/10th of the time playing a MMO, I'd go play Eve.    Interestingly enough, the way I see the current consolidation effort is that it will actually make more viable some of the remaining roles in the game for people like me who do want player interaction.  The tipping point will be more easily surpassed if the player base is concentrated.  For us off-peakers that actually hope to play with others?  It's a godsend.

For those of you talking about the closures of areas in other games as a sign of impending doom - Armageddon actually has a more active playerbase now than it has for much of it's history.  Armageddon used to see 50+ players only during a HRPT, for instance.  But I would argue that for much of that history players had too many options, with the playerbase too spread out, which I suspect limited the growth of game for much of that time.  Of course, there's no way to prove that - it's just been my humble view of things.  Again, my feeling is that with the concentration and people potentially being able to get more player interaction, that things are actually looking up, rather than the reverse.  Then add on top the additional benefits of staff concentration - better plot support, building, response times, RPTs, etc - just icing on the cake, really.

There's still an amazing variety of roles available for players to play in Armageddon, even in the post-Tuluk era.  I'm really looking forward to seeing how things turn out - I do think they will be for the better.

[Saellyn]

I never get any of the sponsored roles I go for. They keep telling me they liked someone else better.

Then that someone else stores or dies or something, and I just go "HAH. That wouldn't have happened if you'd trusted good ol' Saellyn."

SOON.

[Jihelu]

I never get any of the sponsored roles I go for. They keep telling me they liked someone else better.

Then that someone else stores or dies or something, and I just go "HAH. That wouldn't have happened if you'd trusted good ol' Saellyn."

SOON.

You just jinxed your self man.

[Saellyn]

i know, now i'll finally get that black robe templar i keep apping for during every role call.

[AdamBlue]

I wanna play a black robe templar.
I wanna play a black robe templar named Bruce Lee
grafted to his hands are steel cesti so that when he punches it's actually a steel bludgeon weapon
stronger then a half-giant, faster then an elf
dang                                                                                  gosh
but really no
black robe templar sounds like fun but ~so stressful~

[Erythil]

Real talk:

Bring back the drow city with the lore of the underground-dwellers planned for ARM 2 and I would play the fuck out of it.

[Clearsighted]

I miss the tribes, and the gith. Especially the rough ones, like the Red Fangs, Benjari and such.

I think leaving us with only the 'nice' tribes available for PC play is boring and makes the wastes too safe. I don't care for the Sun Runners, who are far too pampered for my taste. They've always struck me as the delf Tan Muark. ATV and SLK are a bit meh-ish.

I don't miss any of the gicker crap or Tuluk. I don't miss Old School Sorcs. Because it was like the same 2-3 people doing it for ten years with anything approaching class. I wasn't a particular fan of the era when Arm 2.0 was being hyped, and everyone and their mother was playing a whiran or nilazi. I don't miss the mantis or the halflings. Halflings were stupidly iso, and playing mantis was like the equivalent of apping a raptor.

If I could bring anything back to Arm, it would be the gith, and a few of the more interesting tribes, human and delf, that are no longer playable. And kanks. I miss kanks, and being able to use words like 'kank fecker' and have it make sense.

But if all those things stayed gone, and Tuluk stayed gone with it, I'd consider it a fair trade.

[HavokBlue]

I can't speak for the SLK because to my knowledge, they've been in the same sad limbo state since re-opening, but if you think the ATV were too nice, you should try one.

[Clearsighted]

I can't speak for the SLK because to my knowledge, they've been in the same sad limbo state since re-opening, but if you think the ATV were too nice, you should try one.

I do and I have.

[Comfortably Dumb]

As someone who had interaction the "old" way and the "new" way with elementals, I think the new way is vastly improved.

I hated how some PCs basically used them as quest dispensers and I'm glad that's gone. Perhaps I have a narrowly-defined view of what "magick should be" on Armageddon, but telling mortals "go get me ten crystals and a gith skull and I'll give you special powers" doesn't fit within that view.

[boog]

I can't speak for the SLK because to my knowledge, they've been in the same sad limbo state since re-opening, but if you think the ATV were too nice, you should try one.

If my SLK merchant hadn't died due to lag... and a skeet...

[Clearsighted]

As someone who had interaction the "old" way and the "new" way with elementals, I think the new way is vastly improved.

I hated how some PCs basically used them as quest dispensers and I'm glad that's gone. Perhaps I have a narrowly-defined view of what "magick should be" on Armageddon, but telling mortals "go get me ten crystals and a gith skull and I'll give you special powers" doesn't fit within that view.

I think the old way had a lot to do with the end of the world and no one giving a shit anymore. I vastly prefer the new way as well. That said, when it comes to magick, I always lean towards it being frightening, mysterious and potentially as dangerous to the user as the victim (if in different ways) than to anything as casual as summoning a little friend and asking it for advice.

[Eyeball]

and potentially as dangerous to the user as the victim

I.e. useless to anyone who isn't suicidal. Who will want to play a mage under those circumstances.

> cast '.. nil .. .. ..' x 1,000,000,000 (to get anywhere)

followed by

> cast '.. un .. .. ..' x 1
Aieeee, flaming death engulfs you!

*beep*

Welcome to Armageddon

[wizturbo]

Potentially dangerous to the user can be (and sometimes is) different than merely coded attacks that have the risk of a sudden mantis head on your screen. 

[BlackMagic0]

All these reductions are starting to smell strongly of SoI and its eventual demise.

The direction of the game it seems lately.

[Armaddict]

All these reductions are starting to smell strongly of SoI and its eventual demise.

The direction of the game it seems lately.

Only with more players on across most timezones.  Maybe I'm just jaded or used to it, but clans being closed and reopened, areas of the game being shut off and reopened...it's happened enough that I'm just really not worried about it.

[Rathustra]

Circling the drain, guys. The end is nigh. Everything is ruined. Farewell friends.

[Bushranger]

Circling the drain, guys. The end is nigh. Everything is ruined. Farewell friends.

And I don't even have a character!

[Jingo]

Tuluk is broken because something something D&D: Darksun?

[Zoan]

ARE WE NOT EVEN TALKING ABOUT BEING UNABLE TO FALL OFF THE SHIELD WALL!?

[FantasyWriter]

ARE WE NOT EVEN TALKING ABOUT BEING UNABLE TO FALL OFF THE SHIELD WALL!?

WUT?!

[Zoan]

Go try it. I'll wait.


Heh heh heh...

[Jihelu]

A many Byn lost their lives today at the bottom of the Shield Wall.
RIP
Zoan is being tried for murder.

[FantasyWriter]

Damnit! I hate writing up new pcs!!!

Also, fuck you Zoan, FUUUUUUCK you. 

[X-D]

That so reminds me of how I used to juke people with a certain delf.

[Supified]

Some of the things on that list were so absurdly over powered it was.. Absurd?  Like spells that you couldn't defend against and could kill you without even being remotely close to you or put the caster at any degree of risk what so ever, they just required the creativity of a small child.  It's remarkable they weren't abused more than they were.

Also I'm just assuming they were toned down. hah.

[hopeandsorrow]

More quit rooms please. When a delf or gicker can check out every quit or save room in a zone in a single game day, it's a little unrealistic. (though IMO perfectly IC for them to want to do).

I agree with all but the last part.  The last part is to me way more OOC motivated.

I kind of always hated when I figured out about every single quit room is known by 70% of the player base.  In fact I feel in more danger in quit rooms then I do in the middle of red desert sleeping.  I would love to see them all moved about, changed, new ones add, old ones removed.

Maybe could stand to have a few more, but for the most part, I believe the current ones, on the whole need to be shuffled around or change in some way.  More reason to explore, maybe a few of them will slip by and not immediately become known to every one.

[Rokal]

More quit rooms please. When a delf or gicker can check out every quit or save room in a zone in a single game day, it's a little unrealistic. (though IMO perfectly IC for them to want to do).

I agree with all but the last part.  The last part is to me way more OOC motivated.

I kind of always hated when I figured out about every single quit room is known by 70% of the player base.  In fact I feel in more danger in quit rooms then I do in the middle of red desert sleeping.  I would love to see them all moved about, changed, new ones add, old ones removed.

Maybe could stand to have a few more, but for the most part, I believe the current ones, on the whole need to be shuffled around or change in some way.  More reason to explore, maybe a few of them will slip by and not immediately become known to every one.

I agree with this. The lands are always changing in one way or another.

Things that change like this can keep everyone on their toes - even vets.

[BadSkeelz]

replace all quit rooms with bottomless pits

[Malken]

replace all quit rooms with bottomless pits

I used to knock gortoks and snakes unconscious with a dude of mine not that long ago and just drag them all into that pit in the tablelands, in the hope that someone would fall in it and encounter the 150 angry and starving 'toks and snakes that I had dragged there, but the game was crashing too often back then, so I was always having to re-do it

[Narf]

replace all quit rooms with bottomless pits

I used to knock gortoks and snakes unconscious with a dude of mine not that long ago and just drag them all into that pit in the tablelands, in the hope that someone would fall in it and encounter the 150 angry and starving 'toks and snakes that I had dragged there, but the game was crashing too often back then, so I was always having to re-do it

Pretty sure all they'd fall into is a pile of gortok and snake corpses.

Granted, there'd probably still be some head scratching.

[Malken]

replace all quit rooms with bottomless pits

I used to knock gortoks and snakes unconscious with a dude of mine not that long ago and just drag them all into that pit in the tablelands, in the hope that someone would fall in it and encounter the 150 angry and starving 'toks and snakes that I had dragged there, but the game was crashing too often back then, so I was always having to re-do it

Pretty sure all they'd fall into is a pile of gortok and snake corpses.

Granted, there'd probably still be some head scratching.

Pretty sure that I had perfected that technique to mastery, so if gortoks fought snakes, I probably would have adjusted what goes into the pit early in my career (can't remember if they did or not, though).

[jstorrie]

I for one am glad to see that staff finally pulled the trigger and admitted that the current scope of the game exceeded the working capabilities of their team. failing to make that decision w/r/t Armageddon Reborn ended up wasting a lot of development hours and destroying a lot of the community's trust. complaining about losing options is incorrect I think given that many of these options were unmaintained and/or broken. at some point you need to be real about what you do and what you do not have the capacity to accomplish.

granted, I don't play anymore. I only logged in because someone told me about Tuluk closing!

[MeTekillot]

I only logged in because someone told me about Tuluk closing!

what i say to myself every day i put in my password.

[jstorrie]

it's a githmas miracle