Gith - The Enemy Returns (to open or no?)

[X-D]

I bet my gith would last at least a year.

Snowflake? I think a snowflake gith would get quashed rather quickly.

[Zoan]

It's easy to survive as a gith.

Step 1: go to tablelands.

Step 2: change ldesc lopes here.

Step 3: wait for 2 day old delf hunter to try and kill you.

[Malken]

I bet my gith would last at least a year.

Snowflake? I think a snowflake gith would get quashed rather quickly.

By snowflake I mean the minute someone identifies a gith that appears slightly different than others it would turn into a mega permanent hunt hrpt. There's also the fact that any gith pc encampment would be discovered within a week max.

[X-D]

To the first part, I do not believe that would be the case, I rather trust players and staff more then you it seems, but I believe they would treat them as gith, which have always been around.

As to the second part, Players and PCs already know where most if not all the gith emcampments are. Even if there was a new one, There are many ways to make them basically safe...not much an issue there.

[Clearsighted]

Most gickers are so afraid of getting killed, that I doubt they'd risk tangling with even a bunch've newbie gith rangers and warriors. In reality, that uber-gicker rarely if ever appears, beyond the occasional mischievous whiran. In any case, I'd gladly assume the risk, for the chance to play a true raiding tribe/clan again.

I also trust that if staff had the foresight and wisdom to make gith playable, they'd handle any attempts to wipe them out appropriately. There are supposedly hordes of gith.

[HavokBlue]

Those hordes of gith won't do a whole lot when a PC gith gets mon un ruin-your-lifed by Lord Templar Hardnose's gemmer gang. They won't do a whole lot when Generic Half Giant Ranger rolls up on PC gith while PC gith running around the salt flats. They won't do a whole lot when Ex-Bynner Amos puts a perraine arrow in them from three rooms away.

The challenges that a PC gith clan would face are pretty similar to the challenges a PC raider faces now, except the gith clan might have a few safe rooms to store all the climbing spikes and byn abas they loot off dead bodies?...

[Armaddict]

The challenges that a PC gith clan would face are pretty similar to the challenges a PC raider faces now, except the gith clan might have a few safe rooms to store all the climbing spikes and byn abas they loot off dead bodies?...

That's what I was trying to get at, but it pretty much flew in the face of people, I think.  This can be done without a gith clan.  I am not averse to gith reopening, but the assertion that they need to be opened for raiding to commence is a silly one to me.  And there are safe rooms galore out there.

[Naruto]

Merely having a gith clan in the Red Desert would bring a whole new dimension, life and conflict to the world, and make travel between Allanak and Luirs actually somewhat risky, now and then.

I'd rather have PCs providing this tension, with just as much to risk losing, than random NPCs puppeted by staff.

Travel between Allanak and Luirs can be made more dangerous by simply loading more of dangerous critters. And believe me there wouldn't be a real need for staff to puppet those NPCs to stop you travel. If you want to see and experience this first hand, I suggest you to go and explore the depths of the Grey Forest. 

[Clearsighted]

The challenges that a PC gith clan would face are pretty similar to the challenges a PC raider faces now, except the gith clan might have a few safe rooms to store all the climbing spikes and byn abas they loot off dead bodies?...

That's what I was trying to get at, but it pretty much flew in the face of people, I think.  This can be done without a gith clan.  I am not averse to gith reopening, but the assertion that they need to be opened for raiding to commence is a silly one to me.  And there are safe rooms galore out there.

I understand exactly what you were saying, but I don't think you know what you're talking about.

Raiding clans/tribes have done fine in the past, and the reasons why they went under had little if nothing to do with player agency (krathis, half-giant rangers, peraine, whatever).

A real coordinated tribe and clan provides a gravitas and a center of gravity for conflict and politics to come into life around it, that a single dumbass human raider that will be dead in a couple days, doesn't. Or maybe one or two of his friends. It provides a nexus for other people to app into, without being some meta-organized OOC buddy.

Here's a fast fact. The only successful non-clan/non-tribe raiders that I can remember, in like the last ten years, have been gickers. And the best of them were gemmers raiding up in Tuluk. So what I find silly, is the somewhat condescending suggestion to 'be the change', when the reality of a human raider is basically suicide. And for it to even scratch at what I was getting at, it would have to be more than one human raider, but a whole group/clan of them, to where they could affect Kurac, Allanak and the tribes and provide some geopolitical intrigue.

No other tribes/indies can currently step in and do that. Only the gith.

[Armaddict]

I understand exactly what you were saying, but I don't think you know what you're talking about.

Well.  I've been told, and since I clearly have no idea what I'm saying and am referencing things I have no experience in whatsoever, I yield the floor of victorious reasoning to you.

[X-D]

I would give up my current PC for a gith....But I would have to ask staff for a week to make the PC as I would agonize of desc and class and sub for that long:)

[Aruven]

lol this thread...

The stuff I want to comment on is about the casual off-handed remarks about other stuff that is just not accurate.

First of all, for someone without the right skillset, it is already sometimes unreasonably ridiculous and dangerous to make a trip from Allanak to Luirs, or anywhere in between for any character under like 5 - 10 days. We don't need more dangerous critters because the amount of cures needed and the incredibly short re-load times of the mobs as is now is crazy.

Second, X-D, I think you are right with the comment, some of us don't trust the PLAYERS. I've told a long story before about trying to side with the 'bad guys' during the whole 'thrall' campaign. After weeks of e-mails and storyline building, after me and the staff member pulled the trigger on it (And I was a noob so i played it bad and trusted ONE other player with it) the same day the AoD (I can still never talk about how this went down) came out of a portal into the room I was in and insta-killed me within seconds without a single talk, say, or tell. No I was not in the city of Allanak. They weren't concerned with a giant mekillot slaughtering gate guards and citizens at the time, they took the chance to use that super twink ability to draw into the room I was in en masse and shut down any chance at any developing plotline. (granted mine was just one of.... many at the time)

So yes, I think if some of the players noticed a particular gith, i'm either underestimating the honesty of bored players or you are underestimating the ridiculousness of bored players. They will do anything just to do it if it is unique. Anyone trying to play a gith is just going to be hunted after, and the reasons will get more and more ridiculous as the players have to justify it to the staff. Eventually staff might be like ... "Oh, so you found a pancake under a rock in the barracks and knew to go out there and find that gith...?" But we all know the resurrection policy doesn't help us at that point.

I'm voting no because most players aren't cool enough to handle this seriously. if I thought it would involve more RP than: "I've seen a white-skinned gith once and we'll talk about it until someone collects that bounty" I might change my mind.

Or if the staff said: "Hey, we're going to let you play a gith with the same s-desc as ALL the other gith." --> Then i'm willing to reconsider this perspective! Sorry players.

[Clearsighted]

I'd be happy to play a gith, and I think people are dramatically overestimating the rest of the playerbase in thinking that gith PCs would be unfairly hunted down.

There's only one power in the game that could 'unfairly' hunt down another player, and I'm sure staff would take a dim view against it being used against random gith.

I love my current character, but what I wouldn't give for a real antagonistic clan to be back in the game somewhere.

[Aruven]

Staff:

Please let like 3 players who won't walk into a pit do this and then send me the logs of their deaths so I can validate my claims. Even do it all sneaky and don't announce it is happening. Here's a preview.


A room in either the tablelands or the red desert with lots of sand and potentially gith nearby.
You are standing here.
An NPC half-giant is standing here.
A hard-nosed templar is standing here with a bunch of magick augmentations.
A couple of gemmers are standing here.
A couple PC militia soldiers are here.
ex: NWSEU

Look west: You see

[Near] Nothing

[Far] Nothing

[Very Far] A white-skinned gith crouches here, foraging for tasty poop. (Lets just be fair and even say it is the s-desc 'yellow-skinned gith lopes along here')

....

Lie to me, but not to yourselves about what happens following this scene over the next five minutes of any arm players lifetime.
That event was years ago, it is shared for experience. Everyone is constantly chomping at the bit to do something 'more exciting'. My role at the time was the equivalent of officially becoming a 'bad guy'. It officially lasted like 2 hours (Granted, nobody has ever had the same power Samos' generation and his minions in Allanak did so far as I know so I picked a bad time to be a villain).

This is advocating for opening up a race with no allies, no ways other than death or war to interact with any other race (except each other)-- And you will very much be the bad guy.

There's a whole clan of southern soldiers without a northern enemy to face them anymore so the next available mob for spam killing is gith and their own people, and we've already seen one of those.

There's not really an issue with opening them to play, except I think it is a waste of time and that nobody will ultimately enjoy anything from it but tears of frustration and a feeling of emptiness inside of you. That staff time could have been spent (hopefully) doing something like expanding the actual gameworld so I have new stuff to interact with.

Gith would be a terrible place to try and go now in my opinion, for the players who tried to make it interesting. Just play a tribal if you want that kind of a role, its the same thing minus having army-sized numbers and cannabalism (this varies). If I am coming off as insensitive it really isn't.

I don't think most people will enjoy this role as much as they think they will, and would very swiftly become frustrated in most cases. There is nothing for gith to do but die unless they stay in boring mob guarded rooms and iso play as far as I know. I could be wrong on this also.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

For me, closing Tuluk made sense, because trying to maintain two large cities' political scenes made no sense to me at all. Opening the gith makes far more sense, as it is just a raiding clan. Give them a 'powerful ruler' to back them up, so that you don't get to Samos them with a non-Samos character, and open them as the new, more powerful Blackmoon.

Cap PC membership at like ... 6. They don't detract from anything, and add a raiding threat back into the game. Give them a couple rules. They only kill 1 in 5 victims, and they trade in Red Storm, like the days of yore.

[Clearsighted]

Staff:

Please let like 3 players who won't walk into a pit do this and then send me the logs of their deaths so I can validate my claims. Even do it all sneaky and don't announce it is happening. Here's a preview.


A room in either the tablelands or the red desert with lots of sand and potentially gith nearby.
You are standing here.
An NPC half-giant is standing here.
A hard-nosed templar is standing here with a bunch of magick augmentations.
A couple of gemmers are standing here.
A couple PC militia soldiers are here.

I can't ever recall seeing a templar with the sack to go hunting gith in the wastes. NPCs at that, let alone PCs, and I don't recall staff being keen on letting them take half-giant NPCs walking along with them.

Baring a few seemingly legendary exceptions, it seems to take substantial staff encouragement or an RPT to encourage the vast majority of templars or militia to step outside the walls. I find it hilarious that anyone thinks they would go out without being forced to.

I know there are a couple anecdotes to the contrary, but I've been playing Armageddon for a very long time, and I have never seen a templar leave Allanak without it being part of a staff plot. I know the Jihaens were better at leading Legionary patrols. Gemmers are annoying, but if staff is fine with the templarate using their whirans to hunt down random gith, then so be it. I don't think it would realistically happen. If I'm playing a gith, I'm definitely staying hooded. And if someone is stupid enough to contact me in a scene to sniff my sdesc, I would eat them.

The real danger to the gith would probably be Sun Runners (more owing to their NPC support than their PCs) and bored, maxed out 50-day+ GMH hunters/soldiers. But the Allanak templarate/militia doesn't even rate in my top ten for anything that doesn't take place within spitting distance of the Gaj. lol.

Besides. I see the gith shaping up more like a hardcore Red Fang experience than anything else. The Red Fangs and Gith supposedly traded as well.

[Aruven]

Well it won't be such a big issue if its happens, like I said! I'm not right about everything.

I'm advocating for players to get to try this since everytime I see the GDB people are apparently playing on a different version of Ginka than I am.

I guess I would also add:

Doing this hopefully prepares you for the waves of people who fought closures of their clans (Like the red fangs, and other small 'raiding groups'). What about those guys? Do they get their clans opened back up with a max cap of 6 since the only reason we are adding the gith back to the game is to have some more dangerous elements in the sands?

[Synthesis]

If gith PCs piss off the Sun Runners, it's gonna end reeeeal fucking badly for the gith, unless the Staff let you roll a gith defiler.

[KankWhisperer]

Gith PCs will be stomped out long before it comes to the attention of any templar, fairly certain. They have no connections with other PC organizations. They are the throwaway bad guys. It would be a hard role but here's how I think it could work anyway?


They already do have a little infrastructure to back them up:

• They have three(?) spots they could retreat to where groups of PCs would not rush into hastily (twice).
• Make their documentation acceptable for them to do that.

Give them a little coded support:

• Have them start slightly skill boosted. (climb/hide/sneak)
• Give them more movement than desert elves.
• Code in the anti-mount stuff for player use and then let them use it too. (Perhaps they have to return a scalp/head and then they are given one. Some kind of limit)
• Make these gith the kind that can vanish like the ones in the red desert. Some kind of psychic dimension door ability with a long cooldown.

High and Low expectations:

• Require two+ karma.
• Make sure the players knows going in that they are likely to die. Make sure they know it's more of a flavor role.
• Emphasize playing it smart. Attack weaker groups and lone travellers.
• -Or make it so they don't care about surviving or odds, they care about feats of battle. So the newbie gith's main concern is some feat for some cultural reason.
  
• Emphasize playing it realistically. No trading/friends with other races. No travelling outside their territory.

[Clearsighted]

Honestly, I think people are dramatically over-estimating just how dangerous it would be to play a gith.

There are some neat things that would benefit them, like having a defiler PC and variants of kankbane. But I do not think they would need boosted skills, or any special ability to escape danger. It would have to depend, I suppose, on what the current justification is for some gith NPCs to randomly disappear. I was never sure if that was actual gickery, a racial 'flee hide' type deal, or a trinket-type thing.

But it honestly wouldn't be that difficult. Most PCs would be far more terrified of even a newbie gith than vice versa. The Red Fangs, for example, were never particularly bothered by gickers. Typically because gickers prefer to not get shot with poison arrows.

The real issue isn't that the gith would be unfairly abused, it is that people would complain too much from them being threatened by gith PCs. Armageddon has had raider/antagonistic clans for most of its existence until somewhat recently. And now even the North vs South element is largely gone. So having an antagonist clan out there might be a rude shock to some people.

I will note though, that historically, IC, the gith did carry out trade with other races.

[X-D]

Give them a little coded support:
•Have them start slightly skill boosted. (climb/hide/sneak)
•Give them more movement than desert elves.
•Code in the anti-mount stuff for player use and then let them use it too. (Perhaps they have to return a scalp/head and then they are given one. Some kind of limit)
•Make these gith the kind that can vanish like the ones in the red desert. Some kind of psychic dimension door ability with a long cooldown.

All I can say to that is, Remember, gith are a TRUE desert race...it is likely that they have plenty to represent that.

High and Low expectations:
•Require two+ karma.
•Make sure the players knows going in that they are likely to die. Make sure they know it's more of a flavor role.
•Emphasize playing it smart. Attack weaker groups and lone travellers.
•-Or make it so they don't care about surviving or odds, they care about feats of battle. So the newbie gith's main concern is some feat for some cultural reason.

•Emphasize playing it realistically. No trading/friends with other races. No travelling outside their territory.

2 karma, yes.
As to the rest, I can think of at least 20 players including myself who could, assuming reasonable docs, keep a gith alive pretty much as long as we wanted...I really do not see an issue there.
And after setting them up,  and docs, the only real staff support I see them needing would be to make sure that PCs like Templars etc, act in a realistic manner...Not that I think this would be a problem, it was not with the red fangs.

After all...
Lord Templar, There are gith Raiders!!

Where, the gates, inside the city?

No, the desert!

Templar looks at man like he is a complete moron.

Come with me citizen...let me introduce you to the cuddler...OF COURSE THERE ARE GITH RAIDERS IN THE DESERT FOOL.

Oh, as to trading, As to gith culture/mentality...trading is not out of the question, but it should be Very hard.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Gith used to have npc representation in Red Storm. I'd allow that. As for the rest ... yeah.

[Malifaxis]

I would enjoy roleplaying in that culture.  Gith are damn cool.

[In Dreams]

If you're the staff, why would you throw support and effort into a clan of things whose interaction with others would mostly just consist of coded combat and growly noises?

[BadSkeelz]

To get a clan that for once doesn't just spend all their time mudsexing. (Hopefully)