Creating Meaningful Conflict (GMHs, Nobles, etc)

[Jeax]

I'm creating this thread to keep the idea rolling on how to create meaningful conflict between Great Merchant Houses and Noble Families, without necessarily elevating it to a city-state level. Ideologies, resources, product competition, economic warfare, all of these have been brought up. It seems to me that player-run conflicts have a ceiling, and that if Staff were to create some sort of plot that people took sides on, we could see much more explosive play.

What would make meaningful plots in these places? How could we get long-term conflict going on, that would keep this element of story rolling? What are the player responsibilities here, and where would we need Staff's help? Etc, discuss, etc.

[Jeax]

Local markets and monopolies vs other local markets and monopolies on the merchant-tycoon level is just so much more interesting to me personally than global monopolies by a single entity.

This is where I'm hanging my hat. I think finding a way to have the GMH battle on an economic plane would be awesome. Right now the global monopolies prevent (I feel) meaningful competition between each House to a degree that they can't fight and sway one another, and perhaps even sway city-states. It would certainly give Hunters a lot more to fight for, and just a whole new level of RP to a House I think.

[Desertman]

Local markets and monopolies vs other local markets and monopolies on the merchant-tycoon level is just so much more interesting to me personally than global monopolies by a single entity.

This is where I'm hanging my hat. I think finding a way to have the GMH battle on an economic plane would be awesome. Right now the global monopolies prevent (I feel) meaningful competition between each House to a degree that they can't fight and sway one another, and perhaps even sway city-states. It would certainly give Hunters a lot more to fight for, and just a whole new level of RP to a House I think.

It just brings to the forefront so many opportunities that are currently blocked by the very real and valid excuse of "We don't want to rock the boat because we have interests everywhere.".

If we had opposing merchant Houses dealing in the same products fighting each other over the global access to materials regularly...*mindblown*.

The number of hunters/soldiers/House guards hired with stuff to actually do? Damn.
The number of mercenaries hired? Damn.
The number of House on House raids against each other's caravans to places like Luir's and Redstorm? Damn.
The number of assassin's hired? Damn.
The number of spies hired? Damn.

Right now, none of that can happen because Salarr has no reason to hire anyone for any truly meaningful conflict against another merchant entity. They are too comfortable, and really, they have no reason that makes any sense to risk that in any way.

[Down Under]

As I stated in the previous thread, having 'resource competition' would provide an outlet for that economic instability. Even resources that aren't directly related to said House (Rubies for Salarr, though they might inset them into blades, but they'd need to be nice and cut and polished by Kadius...) would be of interest to them, because it provides leverage with other Houses.

Spice Deposit uncovered near Red Storm. What's that? Salarr managed to scoop it up before Kurac? Well shit, I guess if they want that spice refined they'll have to sell it back to Kurac, but Kurac won't give them a good deal on it.

Ruby Deposit uncovered in Mountain Range...Kadius manages to scout it out and get some workers up there, but they mysteriously don't report in. Kurac is rumored to have come into a 'large collection' of rubies...Related?

Onyx Deposit uncovered in the Tablelands...All the GMH are interested in it, but aren't on the best of terms with the Soh Lanah Kah or the Sun Runners. Diplomacy is key in this resource race...

And so on. I think it creates conflict in the realm of economy, diplomacy between the Houses, and conflict between each branch of hunters/field operatives.

[Jeax]

The number of hunters/soldiers/House guards hired with stuff to actually do? Damn.
The number of mercenaries hired? Damn.
The number of House on House raids against each other's caravans to places like Luir's and Redstorm? Damn.
The number of assassin's hired? Damn.
The number of spies hired? Damn.

Right now, none of that can happen because Salarr has no reason to hire anyone for any truly meaningful conflict against another merchant entity. They are too comfortable, and really, they have no reason that makes any sense to risk that in any way.

Agree here. It would turn playing in a GMH into a frenzy. I think it would be amazing. I think this could even be started by player initiative. What if a House Merchant gets upset and starts mastercrafting armor, and committing them to the House, etc...that's now a product of the House...there's competition about who is the better gear, and even if you off that Merchant, the avalanche has started. Staff would just have to allow this to take place, and perhaps provide a seed for it.

I think, as you say, we would then see an increase in plot for everyone. Mercs, assassins, spies (people joining both Houses, essentially corporate espionage) and everything. Yeah. Need.

[Desertman]

Would Kadius actually go to war with Salarr over those deposits?

They could I guess, but would they? I don't think the current structure really promotes them doing that, and even if they did it would be a one-pop shop that would require a lot of staff support.

I prefer the idea of smaller local monopolies competing for the same global resources for on-going and potentially never-ending conflicts that would require basically no on-going staff support once the initial Houses/docs were created.

[Jeax]

Ruby Deposit uncovered in Mountain Range...Kadius manages to scout it out and get some workers up there, but they mysteriously don't report in. Kurac is rumored to have come into a 'large collection' of rubies...Related?

With the monopoly, this wouldn't matter. Everyone would just sit there and be like "Oh, looks like Kadius struck gold." and you would get some indies up there. If Kurac decided "Hey, this deposit is closer to us than it is Kadius' main force...we should take it and start a jewelry line." -- now you have a conflict.

Edit: Of course, I don't think Kurac would have any interest in jewelry, this is just an example.

[Jeax]

Disclaimer: The below is total spitballing. It's all poorly thought out, waterfall of ideas.

I will just go ahead and sail this right into the sky--what if, with the ruby example, Tuluk shows up...and can't get in because the Fist is there, or because Kadius already took it and they blocked the way, or something like this...would Kadius be kicked out of Tuluk? That would be interesting, and in the same way I think...for example, the city I live in and company I work for...the mayor is giving us a free plot of land downtown because of the amount of revenue we bring to the city. I think it's safe to say you want coins rolling through your city. You want trade, or you will dry up. That's exactly what a GMH is.

Salarr used to have an outpost--would things like that spring back up? Would it be cleaned out and brought back to life? (I'm hoping the addition of Builders perhaps opens the way to enhanced plot lines like this)

I think with the GMHs we have a bit of a "sleeping giant" in our midst. I wouldn't want to do anything that would basically require tons of Staff hours, but I think there's a lot that Staff could just get started and see how it rolls.

[Desertman]

It would even create things for the noble Houses in those specific cities to get behind and be part of. If you are House Tor of Allanak and the weapons/armor House of Allanak, House Jabawak is going to war with House Salarr of Tuluk over a deposit of really high-grade obsidian.....Tor, who is arguably supplied by House Jabawak for their war efforts MIGHT want to be part of that conflict.

Things like that.

[Desertman]

Then again, I absolutely do not expect any of this to happen. It would require a ton of effort on the front end in terms of staff involvement.

[Jeax]

Then again, I absolutely do not expect any of this to happen. It would require a ton of effort on the front end in terms of staff involvement.

This is true. That's why I think Builders could help out with a lot of it.

[Talia]

It seems to me that player-run conflicts have a ceiling, and that if Staff were to create some sort of plot that people took sides on, we could see much more explosive play.

Man, why didn't I think of this before?!?!?!??

Take that as gentle sarcasm Now, not to be a totally "find out IC" asshole (like I usually am), but, have you guys...maybe...tried finding out IC whether there's anything like this already happening?

The reality of the way that Armageddon works as a game is that large plots that will create inter-clan conflict require staff oversight,  involvement, planning, and execution. Unfortunately, they can't truly be started at the player level. This was true and I knew it when I played leaders (some during the totally-player-driven era, and some before), and I can even more clearly now see the truth of it.

That doesn't mean that players won't be involved and even that player actions won't turn plots this way and that. We work very diligently to incorporate player actions and reactions. And we reward players for their actions, too. We spend a lot of time discussing, "Hey, so-and-so could use a plot bone here, how do we do that? What about whatsherface, how can we get her more involved?" And then we execute, both in accordance with our grand plans and themes, and in reaction to what players are doing in the moment and long-term.

One thing players can do to make these big plots come to life for the broader playerbase is to involve other PCs in your information, your schemes, and your efforts. Often, leaders will hold stuff really close to their vest. But if you have trusted minions, why not tell them what you know and give them some plot-related jobs to do? (When I played minions during big plot things, I found it frustrating that despite my trust level being 9000, I often wasn't confided in or tasked.) The truth about plot info is that it's going to come out, at some point; leaks are expected and desirable.

Another thing to remember is that big plots usually can't be won in a traditional sense. They can be survived, they can be enjoyed--but ultimately, Tek/Muk/other big badass are the real winners. So enjoy the ride, throw yourself in, play your heart out, and worry less about winning.

[Desertman]

Talia! You stop with your personable reasonable responses this very instant! I won't stand for it! Filthy necker.

Seriously though, that was refreshing to read. Thanks for the reply.

I am the world's/Known's worst about not trusting anyone with anything with my leaders. Absolutely the worst.  

But, if I tell them, then they might tell someone, and then stuff and things and stuff and OMAGAHD HERE COMES THE TEMPLARZ WHY!?!?!?!?!

[Nyr]

Then again, I absolutely do not expect any of this to happen. It would require a ton of effort on the front end in terms of staff involvement.

Don't worry.  We've got a pretty good handle on the kind of things we'd like to spend our time working on.

(this is one of them)

[Desertman]

Then again, I absolutely do not expect any of this to happen. It would require a ton of effort on the front end in terms of staff involvement.

Don't worry.  We've got a pretty good handle on the kind of things we'd like to spend our time working on.

(this is one of them)

You don't tease me!

[Nyr]

Just stating the facts, sir.  Those are things we like doing.

[Semper]

The reality of the way that Armageddon works as a game is that large plots that will create inter-clan conflict require staff oversight,  involvement, planning, and execution. Unfortunately, they can't truly be started at the player level. This was true and I knew it when I played leaders (some during the totally-player-driven era, and some before), and I can even more clearly now see the truth of it.

That doesn't mean that players won't be involved and even that player actions won't turn plots this way and that. We work very diligently to incorporate player actions and reactions. And we reward players for their actions, too. We spend a lot of time discussing, "Hey, so-and-so could use a plot bone here, how do we do that? What about whatsherface, how can we get her more involved?" And then we execute, both in accordance with our grand plans and themes, and in reaction to what players are doing in the moment and long-term.

One thing players can do to make these big plots come to life for the broader playerbase is to involve other PCs in your information, your schemes, and your efforts. Often, leaders will hold stuff really close to their vest. But if you have trusted minions, why not tell them what you know and give them some plot-related jobs to do? (When I played minions during big plot things, I found it frustrating that despite my trust level being 9000, I often wasn't confided in or tasked.) The truth about plot info is that it's going to come out, at some point; leaks are expected and desirable.

Another thing to remember is that big plots usually can't be won in a traditional sense. They can be survived, they can be enjoyed--but ultimately, Tek/Muk/other big badass are the real winners. So enjoy the ride, throw yourself in, play your heart out, and worry less about winning.

This is totally what I was hoping for! I'm so glad staff are on board with this. I think I'm just a bit mystified that there isn't more open conflict across Zalanthas. Being in a pretty involved clan, I bring this topic up now and then because I really don't see the things that Talia mentions here IG, and so I get disheartened at the lack of plot diversity.

Please make it easier for everyone and anyone to get involved in these plots (if they really do exist). I seriously think we need more open conflict going on (perhaps in my particular region of Zalanthas just needs it more than the other?). If you are a leader PC in the seat, please share with other PCs and help spread the fun! I'd love for a new player, without knowing anything going on with the GDB and the discussion here, to be able to jump into the game and realize by themselves that "wow, my character is having to make some really important, moral choices right off the bat. There's this conflict there that I could be involved in, and if I don't like that plot, then there's this other plot over there that I can be involved in"! Right now, the feeling I get when I log in is "suck up to a Noble, Templar, ANYONE, and maybe I'll get a bone to pick thrown my way after a full IG year, once I'm FINALLY trusted to wipe the dust off my leader's boots."

The game chases new players (and old) away, ultimately because it's so hard to get involved in a meaningful plot without being a 50+day master warrior/assassion/ranger. If you get involved in plots from day 0 as a player, we could retain so many more players. Being a veteran player should not give you an advantage over a newer player in what kind of plots you can be involved in. PLEASE FIX THIS!

[Delirium]

"People hate Superman because he takes all of the stakes out of everything because he never fucking loses."

That's the problem with the GMH - it's incredibly hard to create meaningful, sustainable, and sensible conflict due to the way they're established.

The difficulty of coming up with a resource-conflict plot that makes sense is (unfortunately) a good example of this.

There would need to be a major sea change before you could really start creating visible plots for the GMH that affected a wide range of PCs.

[Jeax]

Then again, I absolutely do not expect any of this to happen. It would require a ton of effort on the front end in terms of staff involvement.

Don't worry.  We've got a pretty good handle on the kind of things we'd like to spend our time working on.

(this is one of them)

Yissss

[nauta]

One thing players can do to make these big plots come to life for the broader playerbase is to involve other PCs in your information, your schemes, and your efforts. Often, leaders will hold stuff really close to their vest. But if you have trusted minions, why not tell them what you know and give them some plot-related jobs to do? (When I played minions during big plot things, I found it frustrating that despite my trust level being 9000, I often wasn't confided in or tasked.) The truth about plot info is that it's going to come out, at some point; leaks are expected and desirable.

I just want to +1 that.

[HavokBlue]

"People hate Superman because he takes all of the stakes out of everything because he never fucking loses."

That's the problem with the GMH - it's incredibly hard to create meaningful, sustainable, and sensible conflict due to the way they're established.

The difficulty of coming up with a resource-conflict plot that makes sense is (unfortunately) a good example of this.

There would need to be a major sea change before you could really start creating visible plots for the GMH that affected a wide range of PCs.

Agent from House A spends several months scouting locations, gathering funds, supplies, and allies from both his House and other clans to excavate a location for artifacts. Agent from House B finds out and tries to snag the location first. Conflict happens. Wham. Bam. Players can start this, and you low-level competing interests.

Senior merchant from House B notices House A owns the place where raw materials are bought and sold. Senior Merchant decides his house uses more raw materials and should control the raw material trade. He works to gain political allies and discredit House A so that House B can try to swing a takeover of the raw material trade. Wham. Bam. Players can start this, and you have more competing interests! You might not succeed, but it's another thing you can do.

[Armaddict]

Now, not to be a totally "find out IC" asshole (like I usually am), but, have you guys...maybe...tried finding out IC whether there's anything like this already happening?

-I- see what you're doing, Talia.  YOU BE MAKING MY JAW DROP LIKE WHOA.

One thing players can do to make these big plots come to life for the broader playerbase is to involve other PCs in your information, your schemes, and your efforts. Often, leaders will hold stuff really close to their vest. But if you have trusted minions, why not tell them what you know and give them some plot-related jobs to do? (When I played minions during big plot things, I found it frustrating that despite my trust level being 9000, I often wasn't confided in or tasked.) The truth about plot info is that it's going to come out, at some point; leaks are expected and desirable.

ALREADY WORKIN' ON IT BRUH.

For srs, this one was a pretty damn sweet idea that I've not seen anything like in my entire time here.  Props for logical originality.

[wizturbo]

Just stating the facts, sir.  Those are things we like doing.

Can confirm.  They are doing these things...  A lot.... 

[Wday]

I don't see conflict coming with simple fact that a indy hunter has more meaning and wealth then a House hunter.
That said even if two three five houses get into a fuss, I see people saying screw it and just doing indy to keep out of the fray.

[HavokBlue]

Those people probably shouldn't complain on the GDB about a lack of plots then.

[Wday]

Posted by: HavokBlue
Insert Quote
Those people probably shouldn't complain on the GDB about a lack of plots then.

Very true. I myself rarely post on this because I am not the one with big ideas on help and enjoy running with what we have already.
I don't want staff to see this and think another bitching player, But if my two cents count. I say what we need is thos scary oh shit tribes from the past alive again.
I am talking about raiders, Benjaris, Off set D elves and such. Now days feels like if you raid your whole damn bloodline is known and will be wiped. We need the bad guys back in the desert. But just killers and over power dwarves, muls and mages. But those give me your pack assholes, Even if the target runs they are afraid next time.

[Talia]

Please make it easier for everyone and anyone to get involved in these plots (if they really do exist). I seriously think we need more open conflict going on (perhaps in my particular region of Zalanthas just needs it more than the other?). If you are a leader PC in the seat, please share with other PCs and help spread the fun! I'd love for a new player, without knowing anything going on with the GDB and the discussion here, to be able to jump into the game and realize by themselves that "wow, my character is having to make some really important, moral choices right off the bat. There's this conflict there that I could be involved in, and if I don't like that plot, then there's this other plot over there that I can be involved in"! Right now, the feeling I get when I log in is "suck up to a Noble, Templar, ANYONE, and maybe I'll get a bone to pick thrown my way after a full IG year, once I'm FINALLY trusted to wipe the dust off my leader's boots."

The game chases new players (and old) away, ultimately because it's so hard to get involved in a meaningful plot without being a 50+day master warrior/assassion/ranger. If you get involved in plots from day 0 as a player, we could retain so many more players. Being a veteran player should not give you an advantage over a newer player in what kind of plots you can be involved in. PLEASE FIX THIS!

I hear your perspective but I don't really agree with you. We plan open-ended plots where all sort and levels of skillsets are useful. Basically, if your PC has contact maxed (and guess what, they all do now!), then you can get involved in large regional plots without any other skills. It does require you, the player, to find out what's going on and proactively get involved if you don't have a leader who is doing that for you. Yes, it may require some sucking up to leadership. I'm not even gonna apologize for that--large regional plots require leaders, so leader do get a lot of the attention, and will have tasks and information to hand out. Yes, we also try to run scenes on the street for PCs to see and get involved with at every level. And we do try to involve peripheral PCs when we can. But we have clans and we have leaders and plots will largely, always, trickle down through them.

For example: The "Halloween" plot we ran last year in Allanak. A wide variety of PCs were involved in the run-up, and in the actual dungeon crawl. Many were combat PCs, some were sneakies, some were social roles, others were nobles and templars and GMH leaders. Often, the involvement of the PC depended on the player's personal willingness to get involved. Yes, that's right, we frequently see players back out of plots because they are risky and scary. And it's true, they are--your PC could indeed die or have something else bad happen! So it's really not on staff if players choose to not get involved.

[Desertman]

Truth, I once backed out of a staff offered plot and did not even realize it until quite a while later. There were other things surrounding my inability to be involved, I couldn't have regardless, but, when I realized it was a staff-ran NPC later, I felt like such a douche. I'm pretty sure they had setup an entire adventure/location/rooms just for my group.

[Jeax]

I am talking about raiders, Benjaris, Off set D elves and such. Now days feels like if you raid your whole damn bloodline is known and will be wiped. We need the bad guys back in the desert. But just killers and over power dwarves, muls and mages. But those give me your pack assholes, Even if the target runs they are afraid next time.

I think we are seeing this happen. SRs, Soh, and now the ATV...I expect the sands to come alive with things that aren't city-state travelers in the near future (moreso than before anyway). I agree with you that having another raider group could spice life up. Of course, House to House conflict...you could contract raids. Hire bandits, etc. Getting additional conflict in the every day means additional things like that out in the sands. I also feel like you're making a comment based off of only one example.

[Wday]

I have backed out of plots because I simply felt over my head there. It happens I know, but I still would say I support major plots and think in truth it is more minor plots we need going.
I would be tickled to see the Houses change from norther and southern into two Houses itself. I could see fun and great outcome from such plots.

[BadSkeelz]

I missed a staff plot because I was having too much fun RPing not giving a fuck about a trolling animation. My bad

I'm going to link this old thread here because it's a similar argument, except with the City State as actors instead of the GMH.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48108.0.html

Basically, if there's no competing interests and no achievable goals, there's going to be no conflict. GMH have no clear competing interests (though I think there's room to find some in the game as it now stands). If they did have some reason to come to blows, there's little PCs could do in the game than bump off the odd Hunter or Agent. It's not like there's actual caravans we can easily raid.

[Patuk]

I think a lot of conflict would be easier if more organisations had conflicting needs.

I also think a lot of conflict would be easier if skilled characters weren't such a ridiculous pain to come by.

Lastly, I think conflict would be way easier if advantahes gained wouldn't be so great.

Suppose you take a game that's Arm's polar opposite maybe, battlefield. Conflict in battlefield is really easy: team A needs to capture the thing, team B needs to capture the thing, conflict.

People in battlefield also aren't very invested in their characters. If some sniper gets you or you get backstabbed, you don't lose six months of painstaking twinking on an outdated codebase praying nothing bad happens so you'll have to start over again. If you get shot in battlefield, you can respawn and run back to where you're supposed to be without it being too big a deal?

But in Arm?

Half of Arm's organisations don't really get in each other's way in the first place.

GMH's are the most obvious example: they have no meaningful competition or equal-sized people to go up against. Noble Houses aren't immune to it, either. Dasari can go ahead and gather plants or whatever without it getting in the way of other Houses(though they could use their help, maybe.) Winrothol is the only slaving operation in Tuluk, and Borsail's competitor has no PC's in it. Nobody can compete with Tenneshi in building shit, nobody goes for bread and games but Fale, nobody employs gemmed dudes but Oash.

So, as I'm demonstrating, Houses and such are so far apart that there isn't even much of a reason for conflict.

But screw it, your PC is cutthroat/sadistic/ambitious/whatever, and you're going to compete with people anyway. Okay, cool. Power to you for keeping the game fun.

I can respawn in Battlefield with an equally strong dude to play, or die in WoW and not lose everything, but in Arm? Tough shit. Need a saboteur for your smuggle/politics/whatever conflict? Better give a dude a month of copious, boring training where there's a very real chance they'll die from exposure to other shady dudes/bored soldiers. Need 2-3 dudes who are half-decent fighters and won't die in the first sandstorm to show up? Weeks of training at least, with any number of your people dying because the wilderness is dangerous and they had the dubious fortune to find a raptor AND a tarantula.

And even then, chances are your people will have different ideas. Your plot to dunk a wheel of mouldy cheese into Oash's still or smuggle a low-quality inix stud into Winrothol's pen may be awesome for you, but your assassin bro and ranger bitch might think they have way better shit to do than to risk everything so stupidly just to mess with people a bit. There's a ton of old characters with nothing to do at any point in time because they (rightly) feel going out poses a lot of risk for only a little reward.

But suppose that's not a problem eitherh. You have something meaningful to do, and your dudes don't mind spending months buffing up to actually be useful. In fact, you managed to get your people all together and rode out in an RPT to battle your rival clan. Awesome! Maybe you chose a quiet street a night, or a certain dune in the sands, I don't care, shit's awesome and some kind of cool battle happens..

.. And you lose. Shame.

It's not so bad, really. Maybe they had more time to prepare, or just had more people, some lucky reels, whatever. Doesn't matter. You'll just train new dudes and gather new weapons and-

Nope. Nevermind. Arm isn't stagnant, and running conflict doesn't work in it. If the AoD fights the Legions today, loses, and even a few people die, it's game over for a long time to come. There's no strong people to join up out of the blue or shortcut to get strong characters. Barring northern dudes going extinct in massive RPT's or all getting bored and dying, the Legions are gonna win a normal fight pretty easily for another while now.




I know my post seems a tad bleak, but it needn't be. The three problems I point out may or may not get changed, but even with zero coded changes, there are plenty of things you could do to work towards solving them:

The solution to clans having no reason to get angry with each other is, basically, to make sure their interests conflict. Make sure clans need shit found only in each other's backyards. It doesn't even need to be over resources off in the middle of nowhere. Instead give House Tor's finest a great preference for mounts taken from the north, especially those of now-Winrothol breeding. In turn, Dasari might find out the ocotillo Oash brews into their wine is top-notch for some kind of awesome brew, and will therefor have people trying to get their hands onto that shit. It doesn't need to be epic-level, grand, and all-important, but just making sure there are clear things your clan needs that other clans have/also need means there always is something for people to focus on.

As for people's investment in their character, and the effort required to get to a 'useful' level..

.. Please don't make some things so arbitrarily hard to raise/dangerous?

People have went over ways to make skills actually raisable without resorting to punching stilt lizards or whatever a thousand times, so I'm not going to talk about that. Still, it'd help.

Additionally, it'd be kind of nice if people trying to raise their skills weren't come down on so hard. I've been crimcoded for getting frusrated at sneak just not raising past advanced and going twink on it not too long ago. Similarly, staff tells off people weighing themselves down with rocks and shit, and fine, that's no less twinky - but whatever else are people supposed to do?

As for danger, I think a lot of people might be more willing to go out and do whatever if there were a way to assess risks. People don't ask to be allowed to throw their torches into adjacent rooms because they want to be arsonists, but because it sucks losing an awesome ranger to a death trap darkness room you just can't illuminate. I don't think the game necessarily needs more safety, but a better way for people to know whether or not they're about to die horribly would be neat.

As for prolonged conflict being hard.. I'm not especially sure what to do about this. Certainly it helps there isn't some kind of weekly 'Allanak and Tuluk duke it out' RPT, but if you want to promote conflict between anyone, it may be helpful to keep it indirect and covert rather than out in the open and blades flashing. I actually think staff do really well at ensuring this doesn't become a problem, but everytime people ask whether they please can have a war can we or somesuch, I think of this. Prolonged direct conflict just doesn't work very well in a PC context.

Certainly this can't solve everything, but I do at least hope it offers a solid framework. Getting things going is not easy, but I really do want to see it happen.

[KankWhisperer]

Even if you want to get involved doesn't mean you can or should. Sometimes you get cockblocked by other players and not the staff anyway because they don't want you stealing all the fun of their little RPT.

[MeTekillot]

Role apps for skilled cronies should be more commpn. Will elaborate when i get home

[Semper]

I hear your perspective but I don't really agree with you. We plan open-ended plots where all sort and levels of skillsets are useful. Basically, if your PC has contact maxed (and guess what, they all do now!), then you can get involved in large regional plots without any other skills. It does require you, the player, to find out what's going on and proactively get involved if you don't have a leader who is doing that for you. Yes, it may require some sucking up to leadership. I'm not even gonna apologize for that--large regional plots require leaders, so leader do get a lot of the attention, and will have tasks and information to hand out. Yes, we also try to run scenes on the street for PCs to see and get involved with at every level. And we do try to involve peripheral PCs when we can. But we have clans and we have leaders and plots will largely, always, trickle down through them.

Why not just broaden the scope of those involved when planning? Instead of micro-managing the plots, and who gets involved, if the staff puts out a regional/global/whole House directive, then anyone on the fray will be picked up without having to be part of a clan, or led around by a leader.

I wasn't around for the holloween plot you mention, but I'll take the RatSucker plot as an example. That is a city-wide plot that a lot of clans could be involved with, but overall, between each plot "scene" (X rat got killed, post a rumor board, then wait to see who reacts, how far the reaction goes, etc), there was a lot of downtime that didn't directly impact PCs. A stander-by or a new player walking into the game in the middle of this can't really get involved unless they are directly involved with the clan leaders who are pursuing the plot. And once the Ratsucker plot came to a conclusion, what real impact was there to the overall flow of the game? Did further plots come out of that? Were the lives of PCs impacted, and important decisions have to be made? I don't know what happened at the end exactly, but the whole way the plot was run seems to me like a D&D style dungeon crawl (just like you describe the holloween plot?).

What I'm proposing is not more D&D-style plots, where if your character makes it to the end of the dungeon you get a prize and a pat on the back. I'm saying have large, all-encompassing plots that simply determine two important things:
Who is involved? Is this regional, city-wide, clan-wide, etc?
What value is at stake? What kind of morale decisions do PCs have to make by getting involved? And this last point is what I feel is missing in the way staff plots are being run currently. If there is a morale impact, PCs may still have the choice of backing out (if it really is dangerous), but by backing out of the plot, what value are they giving up on? How does their decision NOT to get involved impact those around them? These are critical questions that if a plot can provide, will increase the value of participating greatly.

I'm going to take the previous Ratsucker plot I mentioned before, and give it the twist that I'm arguing for, purely for the sake of an example. What if getting attacked by the Ratsucker didn't just suck you of life, but caused a magickal side effect? The blood of those diseased not only cure those who drink it, but cause them to glow. (Totally pulling this out of my butt, but hear me out to the end.) What kind of decisions will this force ANY character in the city to make? How your character treats those who become diseased can become a moral decision now. Do I value the life of the diseased, or do I value the life of the person being saved from their illness by sacrificing the diseased? Does my character choose to accept the magickal side effects of the healing, or consider it an abomination which should be purged? Do I allow more people to be diseased in order to get more of this healing blood, or do I destroy the Ratsucker and prevent anyone from potentially recieving this special healing? You see how much more conflict can be driven if a moral conflict is introduced to just a regular dungeon plot? Any character stepping onto the scene is immediately forced with making very important decisions, whether or not they even want to be involved in the plot or not. Choose NOT to be involved becomes a choice, because your character is deciding not to care about the increase in diseased people, etc.

I think all I'm really saying is, "Yes, I know there are plots going on IG which the staff try to get people involved in. Yes, I appreciate very much what the staff does in order to get plots going. Yes, I know how much is involved with the planning of each plot. But why not step back on the dungeon master way of handling plots, and throw in a moral decision that people make, and let the players paint the rest of the picture? Instead of a finite "Boss" at the end of each dungeon, why not make plots more focused around a never-ending conflict of values?

[Semper]

If you make plots based on moral decisions and values, rather than a dungeon boss at the end, then you really don't even need codedly skilled characters in order to participate. Any character can be involved in some way or form, because getting involved doesn't mean having to survive through "DOOMSDAY #25, SUPER FLAMING ELEMENTAL OF DESTRUCTION" in order to complete the dungeon. All your character can do to get involved is (for example) "support House X who has the same values that my character does, and is actively treating the victims of the monster with compassion."

[BadSkeelz]

The Ratsucker plot was just about perfect without any magickal mumbo jumbo or "moral" decision bullshit.

Though to be fair, I'm saying this as a player who joined just as that plot was really heating up. My unskilled, idiotic character got swept up in those events and really set on his life path. There was a crisis, warm bodies were needed, and I got to participate from there.

[Nyr]

This is something we have done before.  This is something we'll continue to do where we see it as appropriate.  Not events that are based on moral decisions and values (because this is Zalanthas, and we're already turning moral decisions and values on their heads), but events that are based on tough decisions or regional Zalanthan values.  It's too bad you missed the Halloween plot or some of the other ones that have happened that weren't Ratsucker.

[Semper]

This is something we have done before.  This is something we'll continue to do where we see it as appropriate.  Not events that are based on moral decisions and values (because this is Zalanthas, and we're already turning moral decisions and values on their heads), but events that are based on tough decisions or regional Zalanthan values.  It's too bad you missed the Halloween plot or some of the other ones that have happened that weren't Ratsucker.

Okay~ I think I'm honestly missing all the fun then! 

[KankWhisperer]

This is something we have done before.  This is something we'll continue to do where we see it as appropriate.  Not events that are based on moral decisions and values (because this is Zalanthas, and we're already turning moral decisions and values on their heads), but events that are based on tough decisions or regional Zalanthan values.  It's too bad you missed the Halloween plot or some of the other ones that have happened that weren't Ratsucker.

Okay~ I think I'm honestly missing all the fun then! 

Sometimes the only way to get involved in RPTs is to throw your own.

[Armaddict]

I say what we need is those scary oh shit tribes from the past alive again.

I assert that the 'old days' had scary raiding tribes, yes, but that the PC population itself was just more prone to raiding.  In the 'opening stages' of my playing the game, I would say that roughly -half- of desert encounters were ending in conflict.  Either that person wanted to raid you, you decided to raid that person, or they needed something and would chase you down (scaring the shit out of you in the process) just to show they weren't hostile, but needed something from you.  Sometimes, you'd defend yourself pre-emptively.  Blackmoon raiders were around, and they were the big name, but by and large, the population of the game itself was more hostile in the wilderness, which I saw as fitting.  Cities are the bastions of relative safety compared to the wilderness.  Back then, you'd report a raider to a templar, and they wouldn't respond with their mages.  The Byn wouldn't get hired to deal with you.  Everyone would stare at you and be like 'Out in the sands?  The fuck makes you think that's my problem?'

I don't think we need clans opened or staff run plots for raiding to be more widely used.  We just need...people who are willing to base out of less populated centers that don't care, who are familiar enough with the game to feel comfortable traveling to raid.  Maybe I'll try (again) to get that rolling, soon.  Last time failed miserably.

[KankWhisperer]

I hear your perspective but I don't really agree with you. We plan open-ended plots where all sort and levels of skillsets are useful. Basically, if your PC has contact maxed (and guess what, they all do now!), then you can get involved in large regional plots without any other skills. It does require you, the player, to find out what's going on and proactively get involved if you don't have a leader who is doing that for you. Yes, it may require some sucking up to leadership. I'm not even gonna apologize for that--large regional plots require leaders, so leader do get a lot of the attention, and will have tasks and information to hand out. Yes, we also try to run scenes on the street for PCs to see and get involved with at every level. And we do try to involve peripheral PCs when we can. But we have clans and we have leaders and plots will largely, always, trickle down through them.

Why not just broaden the scope of those involved when planning? Instead of micro-managing the plots, and who gets involved, if the staff puts out a regional/global/whole House directive, then anyone on the fray will be picked up without having to be part of a clan, or led around by a leader.

I wasn't around for the holloween plot you mention, but I'll take the RatSucker plot as an example. That is a city-wide plot that a lot of clans could be involved with, but overall, between each plot "scene" (X rat got killed, post a rumor board, then wait to see who reacts, how far the reaction goes, etc), there was a lot of downtime that didn't directly impact PCs. A stander-by or a new player walking into the game in the middle of this can't really get involved unless they are directly involved with the clan leaders who are pursuing the plot. And once the Ratsucker plot came to a conclusion, what real impact was there to the overall flow of the game? Did further plots come out of that? Were the lives of PCs impacted, and important decisions have to be made? I don't know what happened at the end exactly, but the whole way the plot was run seems to me like a D&D style dungeon crawl (just like you describe the holloween plot?).

What I'm proposing is not more D&D-style plots, where if your character makes it to the end of the dungeon you get a prize and a pat on the back. I'm saying have large, all-encompassing plots that simply determine two important things:
Who is involved? Is this regional, city-wide, clan-wide, etc?
What value is at stake? What kind of morale decisions do PCs have to make by getting involved? And this last point is what I feel is missing in the way staff plots are being run currently. If there is a morale impact, PCs may still have the choice of backing out (if it really is dangerous), but by backing out of the plot, what value are they giving up on? How does their decision NOT to get involved impact those around them? These are critical questions that if a plot can provide, will increase the value of participating greatly.

I'm going to take the previous Ratsucker plot I mentioned before, and give it the twist that I'm arguing for, purely for the sake of an example. What if getting attacked by the Ratsucker didn't just suck you of life, but caused a magickal side effect? The blood of those diseased not only cure those who drink it, but cause them to glow. (Totally pulling this out of my butt, but hear me out to the end.) What kind of decisions will this force ANY character in the city to make? How your character treats those who become diseased can become a moral decision now. Do I value the life of the diseased, or do I value the life of the person being saved from their illness by sacrificing the diseased? Does my character choose to accept the magickal side effects of the healing, or consider it an abomination which should be purged? Do I allow more people to be diseased in order to get more of this healing blood, or do I destroy the Ratsucker and prevent anyone from potentially recieving this special healing? You see how much more conflict can be driven if a moral conflict is introduced to just a regular dungeon plot? Any character stepping onto the scene is immediately forced with making very important decisions, whether or not they even want to be involved in the plot or not. Choose NOT to be involved becomes a choice, because your character is deciding not to care about the increase in diseased people, etc.

I think all I'm really saying is, "Yes, I know there are plots going on IG which the staff try to get people involved in. Yes, I appreciate very much what the staff does in order to get plots going. Yes, I know how much is involved with the planning of each plot. But why not step back on the dungeon master way of handling plots, and throw in a moral decision that people make, and let the players paint the rest of the picture? Instead of a finite "Boss" at the end of each dungeon, why not make plots more focused around a never-ending conflict of values?

I would tend to agree with this. I hate feeling that the only thing motivating me to join these plots is either willful ignorance or purely for OOC 'fun' reasons, or white knight syndrome, because there doesn't seem to be any upside for your group.

[Delirium]

I say what we need is those scary oh shit tribes from the past alive again.

I assert that the 'old days' had scary raiding tribes, yes, but that the PC population itself was just more prone to raiding.  In the 'opening stages' of my playing the game, I would say that roughly -half- of desert encounters were ending in conflict.  Either that person wanted to raid you, you decided to raid that person, or they needed something and would chase you down (scaring the shit out of you in the process) just to show they weren't hostile, but needed something from you.  Sometimes, you'd defend yourself pre-emptively.  Blackmoon raiders were around, and they were the big name, but by and large, the population of the game itself was more hostile in the wilderness, which I saw as fitting.  Cities are the bastions of relative safety compared to the wilderness.  Back then, you'd report a raider to a templar, and they wouldn't respond with their mages.  The Byn wouldn't get hired to deal with you.  Everyone would stare at you and be like 'Out in the sands?  The fuck makes you think that's my problem?'

I don't think we need clans opened or staff run plots for raiding to be more widely used.  We just need...people who are willing to base out of less populated centers that don't care, who are familiar enough with the game to feel comfortable traveling to raid.  Maybe I'll try (again) to get that rolling, soon.  Last time failed miserably.

Well, that and the sentiment is so strongly against "asshole" characters. Whenever I make assholes everyone is just SO OFFENDED that my mean, ugly, sunnovabitch didn't LOVE THEM!

To which I say, toughen up, buttercups.

[BadSkeelz]

I would tend to agree with this. I hate feeling that the only thing motivating me to join these plots is either willful ignorance or purely for OOC 'fun' reasons, or white knight syndrome, because there doesn't seem to be any upside for your group.

Not wanting your city overrun with monsters is a fairly compelling interest to most people, I'd imagine. Characters that try to shirk "Responsibility" like that should be held accountable by the powers that be - which opens up avenues for other plotlines!

I think the Ratsucker example is pulling us off track, though. That was a conflict between the Environment (i.e. Staff) and the PC/NPC population. In my opinion that's the best kind of conflict; it's certainly been a lot more rewarding than PVP I've experienced. However, this thread is about how to start conflict between players, right?

[KankWhisperer]

I would tend to agree with this. I hate feeling that the only thing motivating me to join these plots is either willful ignorance or purely for OOC 'fun' reasons, or white knight syndrome, because there doesn't seem to be any upside for your group.

Not wanting your city overrun with monsters is a fairly compelling interest to most people, I'd imagine. Characters that try to shirk "Responsibility" like that should be held accountable by the powers that be - which opens up avenues for other plotlines!

Your city is not everyone's city.

[wizturbo]

The timing on this thread is sorta hilarious to me.

[Jeax]

You're welcome.

[Is Friday]

Just a comment toward those players that feel that they should be "involved in more plots", I would like to politely disagree.

Say I am playing Noble Lord Rennik who wants to poop all over Noble Lord Jal. Rennik (me) puts the word out that he's supplying everybody in the city with toilet paper that doesn't flush well in order to cause a problem for his rival Jal. Minions A, B, and C all tell their friends. Independents D, E, F hear the word and spread it to minions J & K, who work for Jal. Jal counters this toilet paper plot by creating a new "double-ply, EZ flush" toilet paper.

This is what happens with most plots, in my experience. The more people you involve, the more opportunity your plot opponents have to counter.

Using this silly yet applicable example should provide a decent explanation as to why leaders choose to only involve trusted minions as opposed to "anyone". Sure, some things are not necessary to keep secret. But I guarantee you if I have 3 or more minions for information gathering, I can figure out what Lord Jal is doing if I connect the dots on his activities.


Everybody wants plots. But nobody wants to play useful minions. 

[Nyr]

This is something we have done before.  This is something we'll continue to do where we see it as appropriate.  Not events that are based on moral decisions and values (because this is Zalanthas, and we're already turning moral decisions and values on their heads), but events that are based on tough decisions or regional Zalanthan values.  It's too bad you missed the Halloween plot or some of the other ones that have happened that weren't Ratsucker.

Okay~ I think I'm honestly missing all the fun then! 

Not a slight against you at all--it may simply mean it happened in a place you were not playing.  The nature of some plots are that they most involve the groups "closest" to them, and we want the info to leak IC in a smart IC way to other people that could get involved.  We don't want to see it leak OOC in a dumb OOC way.  That is one of the things that Talia is referring to, I believe.

One of the things that is probably most difficult about RPTs is the level of disconnectedness from them.  Rarely do you have something show up on your calendar that says, "be here at x time for something that you need to find out about secretly."  This is wholly different from real life, and the organizational structure of our boards before didn't use calendars.  We can use them now, though...we'll have to test it out and see how it can work.  Beyond the simple "calendar" aspect is the lack of connectedness to other events.  We don't link events to each other.  We don't usually hint that an RPT is a continuation of a previous RPT.  You can't know that the Ratsucker plot is going on until it is over unless you are playing and involved in it (we aren't going to call it "Ratsucker" or anything as a clickbait title, either).  You also wouldn't know for sure (except from staff hints) that there are staff-sponsored plots going on, or where they are.  There might be some ways to make this all better for our game's unique plot environment...if nothing else, I will be thinking on it.

[Barzalene]

I say what we need is those scary oh shit tribes from the past alive again.

I assert that the 'old days' had scary raiding tribes, yes, but that the PC population itself was just more prone to raiding.  In the 'opening stages' of my playing the game, I would say that roughly -half- of desert encounters were ending in conflict.  Either that person wanted to raid you, you decided to raid that person, or they needed something and would chase you down (scaring the shit out of you in the process) just to show they weren't hostile, but needed something from you.  Sometimes, you'd defend yourself pre-emptively.  Blackmoon raiders were around, and they were the big name, but by and large, the population of the game itself was more hostile in the wilderness, which I saw as fitting.  Cities are the bastions of relative safety compared to the wilderness.  Back then, you'd report a raider to a templar, and they wouldn't respond with their mages.  The Byn wouldn't get hired to deal with you.  Everyone would stare at you and be like 'Out in the sands?  The fuck makes you think that's my problem?'

I don't think we need clans opened or staff run plots for raiding to be more widely used.  We just need...people who are willing to base out of less populated centers that don't care, who are familiar enough with the game to feel comfortable traveling to raid.  Maybe I'll try (again) to get that rolling, soon.  Last time failed miserably.

Well, that and the sentiment is so strongly against "asshole" characters. Whenever I make assholes everyone is just SO OFFENDED that my mean, ugly, sunnovabitch didn't LOVE THEM!

To which I say, toughen up, buttercups.

I don't know about anyone else, but I appreciate your asshole characters. Even the ones I don't encounter. I appreciate that you're willing to play them.

[Talia]

Why not just broaden the scope of those involved when planning? Instead of micro-managing the plots, and who gets involved, if the staff puts out a regional/global/whole House directive, then anyone on the fray will be picked up without having to be part of a clan, or led around by a leader.

I wasn't around for the holloween plot you mention, but I'll take the RatSucker plot as an example. That is a city-wide plot that a lot of clans could be involved with, but overall, between each plot "scene" (X rat got killed, post a rumor board, then wait to see who reacts, how far the reaction goes, etc), there was a lot of downtime that didn't directly impact PCs. A stander-by or a new player walking into the game in the middle of this can't really get involved unless they are directly involved with the clan leaders who are pursuing the plot. And once the Ratsucker plot came to a conclusion, what real impact was there to the overall flow of the game? Did further plots come out of that? Were the lives of PCs impacted, and important decisions have to be made? I don't know what happened at the end exactly, but the whole way the plot was run seems to me like a D&D style dungeon crawl (just like you describe the holloween plot?).

It's kiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiind of funny that you mentioned Ratsucker, since I was one of the architects of that plot I do know what it involved and how we ran it, quite intimately. One thing players often misunderstand is that a lot of downtime in plots is created by players. Often there are "next steps" that players need to take--communicating with each other, communicating with clan staff, getting thing X from place Y, running an RPT, and all of these things delay plot progress. Sometimes that's frustrating to players, and sometimes it feels like nothing is happening, but no one is playing this game 24/7, and it does take time to get things done. Patience is helpful.

Also, we don't "micro-manage" plots. You misunderstand me. We try to spread plots around; if player leaders aren't doing a good job of spreading the plot out to other PCs, then we will do that for them, if we can do it in a way that makes sense within the plot. That's what I meant about discussion between staff members. Sometimes we're trying to figure out how to involve particular PCs, sometimes we're targeting whole clans to get involved. "Micro-managing" makes it sound like what we're doing is a bad thing. It's not. It's a good thing, because if we left all of this up to players, most plots would involve just a couple of people. That would be bad! (Also a waste of effort.)

I also want to say about the impact of plots: Most of them don't have lasting world impact. And they don't need to; that's fine. Plots impact players. Plots are for having fun, not for changing the world. They're for developing characters and deepening relationships and introducing twists and creating memories. The other questions you have about impacting PCs, making decisions, further plots: Yes, those things happened. Those things do happen when we run big plots.

I'm sorry that you're not seeing any of this near you right now. I suspect you maybe just need to get a little more involved with PCs beyond the borders of your clan. Players are often pretty insular, but building relationships with other PCs, and demonstrating your usefulness or interestingness or willingness to be involved will go a long way to buying your ticket to the Big Plot Ride of Doom.

[Delusion]

I also want to say about the impact of plots: Most of them don't have lasting world impact. And they don't need to; that's fine. Plots impact players. Plots are for having fun, not for changing the world. They're for developing characters and deepening relationships and introducing twists and creating memories. The other questions you have about impacting PCs, making decisions, further plots: Yes, those things happened. Those things do happen when we run big plots.

I wish they did. I end up feeling like storing most of my PCs after maybe 20 days on the clock (roughly when the average character has either achieved some modest but not insignificant rank, or otherwise reaches a decent level of competence, but before the long, long grind to be genuinely powerful), unless I get a definite sense that maybe I can have some impact on some overarching story or whatever that changes up everything, or more commonly, to bear witness to it from some interesting perspective. Interpersonal conflict? Having all my PC's friends die again? Eh. Doesn't interest me if the world's not changing as a consequence. I end up storing and going at it with a fresh character, until they, too, come to the same somewhat dull conclusion after some enjoyment on my part of their initial development. I want to feel something's happening, but if the world's static, I just don't get that, and I don't have much more that I feel I can really do with the average character, come a certain point.

Edited post a bit to clarify and change wording in the last bit.

[Jihelu]

I also want to say about the impact of plots: Most of them don't have lasting world impact. And they don't need to; that's fine. Plots impact players. Plots are for having fun, not for changing the world. They're for developing characters and deepening relationships and introducing twists and creating memories. The other questions you have about impacting PCs, making decisions, further plots: Yes, those things happened. Those things do happen when we run big plots.

I wish they did. I end up feeling like storing most of my PCs after maybe 20 days on the clock (roughly when the average character has either achieved some modest but not insignificant rank, or otherwise reaches a decent level of competence, but before the long, long grind to be genuinely powerful), unless I get a definite sense that maybe I can have some impact on some overarching story or whatever that changes up everything, or more commonly, to bear witness to it from some interesting perspective. Interpersonal conflict? Having all my PC's friends die again? Eh. Doesn't interest me if the world's not changing as a consequence. I end up storing and going at it with a fresh character, until they, too, come to the same pointless conclusion after some enjoyment on my part of their initial development.

That makes the game for me I think.
That "So much has happened but the world doesn't give a singular fuck".
Unless you happen to be friends with Tek/Muk and they die. Then all hell goes.

[MeTekillot]

Role apps for skilled cronies should be more commpn. Will elaborate when i get home

A big thing that stops conflict is that when your MAIN GUY (that is, your one of three guys you've spent the last three months training up to 20-days played competence) gets owned by House Your-Rival, is that one third of your effectiveness has just gone totally kaput for a very long time. I think it would help to facilitate a lot of conflict if the leader PCs in high-profile high-power clan had a reserve of role-apps that they could put a call out for, where someone could app into their clan as a moderately skilled whatever, so that they actually have the sway that they virtually do have.

Also give people reasons to branch out their organization's main thing, with incentive to step on the toes of other organizations. Maybe Oash decides that, since they have fields already, Rennik doesn't need all that dosh from being the agriculture guys. Kurac decides that being the main supplier of narcotic pleasure isn't enough, and starts to do luxury goods, Kadius be damned because goddamnit we have an Outpost, you silk-sleeved little shits. Something. If not, maybe staff could put in plots to plop down some very neat stuff in the deserts that should take a little while to harvest, a la the Copper War. Both Kadius and Salarr have a reason to try to tap that gem vein that's been discovered in the Red Desert, and they're playing for keeps. I'm not a one man planning machine, so what I've probably presented is somewhat limited in scope, but work with me.

also destroy tuluk consolidate players

[Semper]

I also want to say about the impact of plots: Most of them don't have lasting world impact. And they don't need to; that's fine. Plots impact players. Plots are for having fun, not for changing the world. They're for developing characters and deepening relationships and introducing twists and creating memories. The other questions you have about impacting PCs, making decisions, further plots: Yes, those things happened. Those things do happen when we run big plots.

I wish they did. I end up feeling like storing most of my PCs after maybe 20 days on the clock (roughly when the average character has either achieved some modest but not insignificant rank, or otherwise reaches a decent level of competence, but before the long, long grind to be genuinely powerful), unless I get a definite sense that maybe I can have some impact on some overarching story or whatever that changes up everything, or more commonly, to bear witness to it from some interesting perspective. Interpersonal conflict? Having all my PC's friends die again? Eh. Doesn't interest me if the world's not changing as a consequence. I end up storing and going at it with a fresh character, until they, too, come to the same somewhat dull conclusion after some enjoyment on my part of their initial development. I want to feel something's happening, but if the world's static, I just don't get that, and I don't have much more that I feel I can really do with the average character, come a certain point.

Edited post a bit to clarify and change wording in the last bit.

I think this is the feeling for a lot of veterans? That things happening IG just don't matter.

I hear what the staff are saying. I just think perhaps there could be a different perspective to try out now'n then? There must be a better way to fix this feeling of repetition, wash'rinse'repeat cycle.

Arm 2.0 End-of-World plot? There was a certain 'energy' behind those plots, because as a player, I knew some big changes were going on, and things that I was involved in as a character could impact how things were going to shape in the new world (even if the chances were slim). That kind of motivation for over-arching, long-term plots, could really drive players into playing motivated characters once again. (I'm not suggesting anything here, just stating how I felt at that time.)

[Barzalene]

I'd extol the staff not to be afraid of letting pcs change the world changing plots. Big shock value. It should happen rarely. Just enough that it feels possible. Then you plot to put it back in time. Like the fall of Tuluk. Like the liberation of Tuluk.

[Talia]

That doesn't mean that players won't be involved and even that player actions won't turn plots this way and that. We work very diligently to incorporate player actions and reactions. And we reward players for their actions, too. We spend a lot of time discussing, "Hey, so-and-so could use a plot bone here, how do we do that? What about whatsherface, how can we get her more involved?" And then we execute, both in accordance with our grand plans and themes, and in reaction to what players are doing in the moment and long-term.

[Barzalene]

That doesn't mean that players won't be involved and even that player actions won't turn plots this way and that. We work very diligently to incorporate player actions and reactions. And we reward players for their actions, too. We spend a lot of time discussing, "Hey, so-and-so could use a plot bone here, how do we do that? What about whatsherface, how can we get her more involved?" And then we execute, both in accordance with our grand plans and themes, and in reaction to what players are doing in the moment and long-term.

I hear that, and its awesome. I meant more the opportunity for a PC  or PCs to be the catalyst. (I get lazy and fail to express myself clearly. If you guys were omniscient this wouldn't be an issue. Please try to get those mind reading skills leveled. Thanks.)

[Talia]

I hear that, and its awesome. I meant more the opportunity for a PC  or PCs to be the catalyst. (I get lazy and fail to express myself clearly. If you guys were omniscient this wouldn't be an issue. Please try to get those mind reading skills leveled. Thanks.)

By "catalyst" do you mean "be the starter of the plot"? Because we do actually do that. E.g., something that BadSkeelz referred to up-thread that his PC did in response to an animation, which started a particular mini-plot ball rolling. The animation was just supposed to be an animation, but PC action turned it into an actual plot for the clan and the resulting interaction involved a number of PCs.

Another example from a few years ago: The player of a templar decided that his PC had been assigned to drudge work at the copper mine by some enemy, and had just now made it back to being stationed in Allanak, and wanted to find out who his enemy was. We turned that into a plot which had some really fun moments. (Until the templar died )

I could give other recent examples too, except that I can't.

If by "catalyst" you mean "make a particular plot event happen before it's ready to happen, because PCs want to" then all I can say is...plot stuff happens when staff and players have both done what is necessary to make it happen. We do need prep time, we can't do everything off-the-cuff all the time. As mentioned, often plot delays happen because players get delayed in their actions. Other times staff is doing a build-up and we're not ready for players to "solve" the plot yet, because you guys haven't done enough work and/or because we want the plot to get around to more PCs and/or because we want the timeline to go longer.

Something that keeps coming to mind as I read player responses in this thread is that, unfortunately, since you guys can't see what staff sees, then you can't ever see if we're actually doing what you say you want, and which I'm saying we are doing. Again with the BadSkeelz example, let's assume he's not playing that PC anymore; if there was anything still happening with that plot, he would never know. Staff simply can't give concrete, solid examples of what we're doing currently, and often we also can't tell you what we did in the past.

You're just going to have to trust us. Or not. That's up to you.

[Barzalene]

I hear that, and its awesome. I meant more the opportunity for a PC  or PCs to be the catalyst. (I get lazy and fail to express myself clearly. If you guys were omniscient this wouldn't be an issue. Please try to get those mind reading skills leveled. Thanks.)

By "catalyst" do you mean "be the starter of the plot"? Because we do actually do that. E.g., something that BadSkeelz referred to up-thread that his PC did in response to an animation, which started a particular mini-plot ball rolling. The animation was just supposed to be an animation, but PC action turned it into an actual plot for the clan and the resulting interaction involved a number of PCs.

Another example from a few years ago: The player of a templar decided that his PC had been assigned to drudge work at the copper mine by some enemy, and had just now made it back to being stationed in Allanak, and wanted to find out who his enemy was. We turned that into a plot which had some really fun moments. (Until the templar died )

I could give other recent examples too, except that I can't.

If by "catalyst" you mean "make a particular plot event happen before it's ready to happen, because PCs want to" then all I can say is...plot stuff happens when staff and players have both done what is necessary to make it happen. We do need prep time, we can't do everything off-the-cuff all the time. As mentioned, often plot delays happen because players get delayed in their actions. Other times staff is doing a build-up and we're not ready for players to "solve" the plot yet, because you guys haven't done enough work and/or because we want the plot to get around to more PCs and/or because we want the timeline to go longer.

Something that keeps coming to mind as I read player responses in this thread is that, unfortunately, since you guys can't see what staff sees, then you can't ever see if we're actually doing what you say you want, and which I'm saying we are doing. Again with the BadSkeelz example, let's assume he's not playing that PC anymore; if there was anything still happening with that plot, he would never know. Staff simply can't give concrete, solid examples of what we're doing currently, and often we also can't tell you what we did in the past.

You're just going to have to trust us. Or not. That's up to you.

Text is hard. No censure or criticism is implied. I do trust you! I do!
I think our disconnect is you don't  want to make promises that you may not be able to fulfill. I think you guys are doing more, but don't want to be in the position of having to say: yes you bought 100 torches. No you can't burn down Luirs Outpost.

But we  (yeah I'm putting  words in everyone's mouth) want to feel impactful and that we can be surprised. I think its likely true. We just want it in writing.

That said, I have no doubt that you guys are doing your part. My experience has been awesome.

[wizturbo]

Everybody wants plots. But nobody wants to play useful minions.  

^^^

One of the best roles in the game is being a useful/trusted minion of a good leader.  You get the plot action, and way less OOC or IC responsibility.  Whenever I'm not playing one of these, part of me wishes I was.

[Talia]

Text is hard. No censure or criticism is implied. I do trust you! I do!

Oh, I really do know this. My only frustration with this type of conversation comes from the fact that the staff perspective is so radically different from the individual player perspective, and I think we talk past each other a lot as a result. I don't think there's a fix for that other than trust on both sides.

I think our disconnect is you don't  want to make promises that you may not be able to fulfill. I think you guys are doing more, but don't want to be in the position of having to say: yes you bought 100 torches. No you can't burn down Luirs Outpost.

Yeah, again unfortunately, we do have to say no more often than we'd like to. Sometimes this is because a player didn't communicate with us at all, sometimes it's because the thing a player wants to do is unrealistic, sometimes it's because we just don't have staff resources available to support the thing right then, sometimes it's because it's just not something we want to see in the game world right now. E.g., burning down Luir's (totally facetious example, I know) would suck for a lot of players both IC and OOC and so we don't want to do that.

Side note: Does it seem to anyone else like threads like this pop up a LOT more when players are actually excited about the game and stuff is happening? I sort of feel like they do. Excitement seems to generate the feeling of "but if we just did a little more of THIS..." And then we get GDB threads.

[Jeax]

Side note: Does it seem to anyone else like threads like this pop up a LOT more when players are actually excited about the game and stuff is happening? I sort of feel like they do. Excitement seems to generate the feeling of "but if we just did a little more of THIS..." And then we get GDB threads.

Yes.

When people feel good and/or are inspired by activity, they turn creative and want to keep moving the bar higher and keep pressing on, etc.

[whitt]

Side note: Does it seem to anyone else like threads like this pop up a LOT more when players are actually excited about the game and stuff is happening? I sort of feel like they do. Excitement seems to generate the feeling of "but if we just did a little more of THIS..." And then we get GDB threads.

Yep.  At work we call it "Enthusispasm". 

It is usually followed (sadly) by a period of some idea presenters feeling rejected as "great ideas" are "shot down" when in reality what's happened is that the team that has created some momentum has either already talked through those ideas or is actively attempting to not get overloaded with additional work.

It's a rare team that avoids Helium hand and just delivers slow steady progress.  The last several months have been pretty awesome.  Expect more Enthusispasms.

[Talia]

Expect more Enthusispasms.

Please consider this the new sig I would have if I wasn't so sentimentally attached to fire kanks.

Thanks for the explanation and for getting what I meant, guys!

[wizturbo]

The last several months have been pretty awesome.  Expect more Enthusispasms.

^^^

[KankWhisperer]

I think certain areas seem to get all the attention.

[Semper]

I think certain areas seem to get all the attention.

My gut reaction is to agree with this. I think I just need time playing in a political/social role before I can really make another accurate judgement on the current conflict level in the game. My hope is that things really are going as the staff describe.

[HavokBlue]

I think certain areas seem to get all the attention.

What do you mean? One city over the other?

Because they both have separate, dedicated staff teams. =/

[Rokal]

The game chases new players (and old) away, ultimately because it's so hard to get involved in a meaningful plot without being a 50+day master warrior/assassion/ranger. If you get involved in plots from day 0 as a player, we could retain so many more players. Being a veteran player should not give you an advantage over a newer player in what kind of plots you can be involved in. PLEASE FIX THIS!

I can say right now, as a newbie player.

I never let my lack of experience with arm stop me from getting involved, nor did being a newbie or a fresh character stop others from trying to involve me.

I didn't hesitate to get into anything that happened, even from day one!

As a new player, I get into things and I get so many: AWESOME!   moments.

I think what your speaking if is an out of character -fear- of what may be the consequences for getting involved with a fresh character.

The thing is though, the bumpy road of getting involved  with a brand new, fresh and inexperienced character can make the experience better. in my experience so far, fresh characters aren't ignored, if anything, they're welcomed quickly, and given plenty of opportunity to get into plots.

[Jeax]

The game chases new players (and old) away, ultimately because it's so hard to get involved in a meaningful plot without being a 50+day master warrior/assassion/ranger. If you get involved in plots from day 0 as a player, we could retain so many more players. Being a veteran player should not give you an advantage over a newer player in what kind of plots you can be involved in. PLEASE FIX THIS!

I can say right now, as a newbie player.

I never let my lack of experience with arm stop me from getting involved, nor did being a newbie or a fresh character stop others from trying to involve me.

I didn't hesitate to get into anything that happened, even from day one!

As a new player, I get into things and I get so many: AWESOME!   moments.

I think what your speaking if is an out of character -fear- of what may be the consequences for getting involved with a fresh character.

The thing is though, the bumpy road of getting involved  with a brand new, fresh and inexperienced character can make the experience better. in my experience so far, fresh characters aren't ignored, if anything, they're welcomed quickly, and given plenty of opportunity to get into plots.

This is a good perspective. I think a lot of players wait until their skills as journeyman+ to start trying to get involved in anything, and before then they sort of lie low. This isn't necessary, especially if you're in numbers. While I am somewhat guilty of this myself, I have played a couple of more "ballsy" characters that just go for stuff, and I have found myself in plots as only a 2-4 day character or so. I would agree that it is definitely an OOC fear.

[valeria]

The 20 day slump is a real, actual problem for me.  The character's shiny newness has worn off, her friends have probably died or been replaced, and probably a couple original goals are impossible to obtain or have already been obtained.  Fortunately, being aware that it's a problem makes it easier to power through.

[Harmless]

As someone who prefers the minion role over the leader one, I don't usually have trouble being involved in plots.

Of course that doesn't mean I won't miss the action because my playtimes suck. Or because I suck and die to a beetle or something before I can actually be useful.

Because I take on that minion mindset though I usually find myself involved in stuff.

Unless I am a city elf. Nobody involves city elves in anything unless they are undoubtedly useful, like if they have  monopoly on a certain skillset. And even then it is more likely they will just be executed or thrown away. If you want to be involved in plots don't be a city elf or visibly obvious breed, tht is my advice. Even half giants hve trouble gaining trust due to their intelligence.

[Delirium]

It's a rough spot. Those who would hand out plots often find themselves having to bend roleplay expectations to include city elves.

[bcw81]

It's a rough spot. Those who would hand out plots often find themselves having to bend roleplay expectations to include city elves.

In some cases, that's not even true. If the city elf is playing to documentation, and you aren't playing "Knight in Shining Armor Sponsored Role #4208", you can pretty much hire them to do all sorts of unsavory jobs. Sure, you can't hire them to do the -same- jobs as humans, but they didn't pick to play a city-elf to have the same experience as a human.

Give them shit jobs.
Whore them out.
Send them to clean the stables.
Have them spy on your enemies.
Try to put them into a position where you can use their presence to make your political rival look bad.
Tell them they may actually be something to get their hopes up so they'll do some nefarious task for you.

Honestly, the list is endless. Basically, the only thing you can't do with an elf is hire them into your clan. (Unless you're Kurac or the Byn.)

[Khorne8]

It's a rough spot. Those who would hand out plots often find themselves having to bend roleplay expectations to include city elves.

Can't speak for all folks who might play cElves, but whether it be cElves or any other race.  Please.  Please.  Do not do this.

A big part of the experience playing a pariah race is other races reacting accordingly to the presence of a gith/breed/cElf/mutant/gick.

Any cElf player worth their salt expects to be mistrusted.  They very likely anticipate being treated a certain way and revels in it when the armosphere treats them like the docs suggest they would be treated, eg with extreme distrust and general dislike.  Being treated like a sociopathic kelptomaniac might be a bit much, but to each their own.

The same, I would think, holds true for breed players.  They expect to be treated like dirt and kicked around.  It's when they're hugged and welcomed with open arms that the pof Breed is thinking... wtf just happened here?  Not when someone shoves them off their stool, because... breed.

Play to your character, the pariahs will thank you for it OOCly.

[bcw81]

^That too^

[Saellyn]

Trust me when I say some of those"pariahs" don't want to be pariahs, they want to be treated just like humans and will hate you for life if you don't treat them like they're your equal.

[RogueGunslinger]

Can continue discussing derail over here: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49189.0.html

[Nyr]

I've moved a pointless derail out of here into moderation.  Not only has it been discussed to death multiple times, it has derailed other threads.

Note that deliberately derailing a thread is considered trolling, and since this has come up before, it looks pretty deliberate.  Consider this a warning.  Further derails of this nature will be met by the rules of the board being enforced.