GMH Hunters - What's Up With That?

[whitt]

I also have a habit of playing roles that aren't horribly newbie friendly. In retrospect, it would be pretty difficult for newer players to be successful on an IC level with my system. I guess staff has to consider the full spectrum of playability and enjoyment and not just the abilities of veterans.

As a vet, I could rock that roll.

Thinking back to when I was a newbie, I would be lost and could never make that work and would never be able to fill orders. 

I had not considered that.

D-man...

The wife took over your account.

Time to change your password.

[Desertman]

I also have a habit of playing roles that aren't horribly newbie friendly. In retrospect, it would be pretty difficult for newer players to be successful on an IC level with my system. I guess staff has to consider the full spectrum of playability and enjoyment and not just the abilities of veterans.

As a vet, I could rock that roll.

Thinking back to when I was a newbie, I would be lost and could never make that work and would never be able to fill orders.  

I had not considered that.

D-man...

The wife took over your account.

Time to change your password.

The weak should perish. Get off my lawn. I've no considerations for those that can't stand alone. Garble garble grable stuff and things!!! *Shakes Fist*

[Semper]

Why not just get rid of [the need for] GMH hunters altogether? Make it as a flavor role if someone wants to play a House Hunter (like a Noble House guard is presently), and push the actual hunting-type PCs into independent groups. I think group dynamics would be more interesting that way.

[added] It should be more of a political/social move to join a GMH for a hunter, rather than a motive to actual do hunting. If you just want to make a living as a hunter, then joining an independent merchant who actually needs your services would be more rewarding (which it should be). Perhaps once you are an experienced hunter, then joining a GMH allows your character to focus on politics rather than having to go out and risk your life all the time in order to make a living. And make it so only a limited few can join a division, so it's actually some status your character gains by making it into those select few.

[Barzalene]

It would turn Salarr and Kadius into Nenyuks. Nenyuk didn't work.

Why not just get rid of [the need for] GMH hunters altogether? Make it as a flavor role if someone wants to play a House Hunter (like a Noble House guard is presently), and push the actual hunting-type PCs into independent groups. I think group dynamics would be more interesting that way.

[added] It should be more of a political/social move to join a GMH for a hunter, rather than a motive to actual do hunting. If you just want to make a living as a hunter, then joining an independent merchant who actually needs your services would be more rewarding (which it should be). Perhaps once you are an experienced hunter, then joining a GMH allows your character to focus on politics rather than having to go out and risk your life all the time in order to make a living. And make it so only a limited few can join a division, so it's actually some status your character gains by making it into those select few.

[Semper]

It would turn Salarr and Kadius into Nenyuks. Nenyuk didn't work.

How so?

[Barzalene]

Because the hunters are the best part.

[valeria]

D-man, did you consider how many more obscure materials will be used when craters mcrafters have access to more recipes via the analyze skill... because there are models available to analyze now that could be pulled off of npcs for that purpose?  Instead of having to constantly fetch the same neverending supply of easily craftable stuff.   Maybe crafters will actually dog into the knobby fuckwood pile, making it necessary for hunters to get more four the first time in ever.  This could actually be a good thing for hunters.

I think any problems of overusing npcs to the detriment of pc hunters and craters can be addressed by staff.

[Patuk]

So, what again is the objection to giving high crafters/sponsored dudes recipe lists?

[Semper]

So, what again is the objection to giving high crafters/sponsored dudes recipe lists?

Probably for the same reason the spell and skill lists aren't given? I figured it's a staff policy.

[BadSkeelz]

keeps the newbies down

[Talia]

So, what again is the objection to giving high crafters/sponsored dudes recipe lists?

find out ic

[Desertman]

D-man, did you consider how many more obscure materials will be used when craters mcrafters have access to more recipes via the analyze skill... because there are models available to analyze now that could be pulled off of npcs for that purpose?  Instead of having to constantly fetch the same neverending supply of easily craftable stuff.   Maybe crafters will actually dog into the knobby fuckwood pile, making it necessary for hunters to get more four the first time in ever.  This could actually be a good thing for hunters.

I think any problems of overusing npcs to the detriment of pc hunters and craters can be addressed by staff.

If you can pull the items off an NPC to get the recipe, that means you can pull them off the NPC to market them. It still makes hunters an option, not a necessity, and not even necessarily the best option in terms of making clients happy.

[Saellyn]

The NPC will only hold one of each item, and once you buy it to hand it out (unless it's nucraftable), it's gone. Better get your crafters working!

[Desertman]

The NPC will only hold one of each item, and once you buy it to hand it out (unless it's nucraftable), it's gone. Better get your crafters working!

I don't see where this was said.

[Semper]

D-man, did you consider how many more obscure materials will be used when craters mcrafters have access to more recipes via the analyze skill... because there are models available to analyze now that could be pulled off of npcs for that purpose?  Instead of having to constantly fetch the same neverending supply of easily craftable stuff.   Maybe crafters will actually dog into the knobby fuckwood pile, making it necessary for hunters to get more four the first time in ever.  This could actually be a good thing for hunters.

I think any problems of overusing npcs to the detriment of pc hunters and craters can be addressed by staff.

If you can pull the items off an NPC to get the recipe, that means you can pull them off the NPC to market them. It still makes hunters an option, not a necessity, and not even necessarily the best option in terms of making clients happy.

Which is why I say just get rid of the need for PC GMH hunters to actually hunt, and instead have them fulfill a different primary function in their respective clan. With all the additional free time that I assume merchants/crafters might have, put it to good use interacting with other clans/groups, rather than sitting around waiting for hunters to kill NPCs.

Free up PCs to actually make plots happen, instead of every plot being "fulfill this or that order for templar/noble hardnose".

[Desertman]

D-man, did you consider how many more obscure materials will be used when craters mcrafters have access to more recipes via the analyze skill... because there are models available to analyze now that could be pulled off of npcs for that purpose?  Instead of having to constantly fetch the same neverending supply of easily craftable stuff.   Maybe crafters will actually dog into the knobby fuckwood pile, making it necessary for hunters to get more four the first time in ever.  This could actually be a good thing for hunters.

I think any problems of overusing npcs to the detriment of pc hunters and craters can be addressed by staff.

If you can pull the items off an NPC to get the recipe, that means you can pull them off the NPC to market them. It still makes hunters an option, not a necessity, and not even necessarily the best option in terms of making clients happy.

Which is why I say just get rid of the need for PC GMH hunters to actually hunt, and instead have them fulfill a different primary function in their respective clan. With all the additional free time that I assume merchants/crafters might have, put it to good use interacting with other clans/groups, rather than sitting around waiting for hunters to kill NPCs.

Free up PCs to actually make plots happen, instead of every plot being "fulfill this or that order for templar/noble hardnose".

I would argue there really is no "need" for them to hunt right now (and in a lot of ways hasn't been for a very long time) and that will be compounded by the new NPC feature.

[nauta]

So what's the fix?  To me?  The "fix" seems to be to ditch the concept of GMH Hunters.  Have the Houses outsource their Hunting to Indy Hunters.  Get what you can IC for whatever price you can IC.  If you can't get it IC, pay a set cost for that resource (probably more than you would pay IC) to get it from another (OOC) source.  If someone comes along that a GMH can readily get supplies from on a regular basis, they'll naturally give that Hunter discounts in an effort to retain them, but there wouldn't be an expectation of a GMH House Hunter role.

Hi Witt!

I think it is a neat idea, and some of it happens already IG.  I know that my indy hunters often sold things to GMH merchants, although some of them were chased down by GMH thugs (for doing just that).

Just to comment on your suggestion, I think there might be two things to consider:

1. It is pretty radical as a fix.  I think there's still plenty of room for GMH hunter PCs in the game world, even if OOCly you know you are not actually doing anything but have to pretend that you are (after all that's what nobles and, well, pretty much all of us have to do anyway - there are, after all, other virtual hunters in the House). PC hunters can still go on hunts with their "bros", wear the swag, get easily involved in house politics/plots, have social standing above the average independent (if people play the docs right), have stressful jobs that prevent them from giving enough love to their dimwitted honies back home who will cheat on them with some disgusting no-rank indy, get let out of jail for a lesser bribe or no bribe at all, etc. etc. In general it offers a different RP experience than that of the average independent hunter.

2. The very thing that makes GMH hunter PCs redundant/unnecessary a fortiori makes independent hunter PCs unnecessary to a GMH Merchant PC, namely: that items purchased and their raw materials can be 'virtually' obtained either (as it was before) a request to staff or (as it will be nowish) an NPC vendor.  And from what I understand, the NPC vendor is basically the most awesome thing ever in every regard other than that it amplifies the feeling of redundancy/non-necessity for a PC GMH hunter.

3. Some people have pointed out that one fun dynamic is that between indy hunters and GMH hunters, and it'd be a shame to lose this.

[Barzalene]

In the end if we have a choice between losing a meaningful and longstanding part of the game (GMH Hunters) either by proposed change or attrition (due to reduced fun ) or brainstorm something new to enhance the role I want to advocate what's behind door number 3. I don't want to lose hunters. I do want the merchant order process improved. What can we add to the equation to make it balance.

[Desertman]

In the end if we have a choice between losing a meaningful and longstanding part of the game (GMH Hunters) either by proposed change or attrition (due to reduced fun ) or brainstorm something new to enhance the role I want to advocate what's behind door number 3. I don't want to lose hunters. I do want the merchant order process improved. What can we add to the equation to make it balance.

I still like my idea of giving the kids the tools and letting them play in the sand instead of just handing them finished sandcastles.

It appears most people prefer finished sandcastles however, which saddens me, but, I can't argue with the numbers.

My view of GMH's is probably an issue also. I really do view them as having the goal of creating and marketing those items they are known for to PC's and that being their primary goal. Apparently this is not such a huge concern on the PC front and is not necessarily their entire focus.

I view doing exactly that as the measure of their success, while it seems most people view the marketing and selling of those goods as a secondary inconvenience to the role, and not necessarily the primary function of the role.

Learning most people view taking orders and filling orders in a GMH as a pain made me really re-think my entire standpoint behind what I am shooting for with my idea.

My idea was meant to enhance part of the game that most people seemingly don't even prefer to do.

Thus, it is a failed idea from the start.

With this knowledge, I actually fully support the idea of an NPC that can fill all orders. It means I'll probably never play one of those roles since it doesn't really cater to my preferred "objectives" I like when playing a role, but, if it makes most people enjoy it, I'm elbow deep two-thumbs up.

[Barzalene]

I think you are right about hu terms having work that feels crucial. Its worth discussion.

[Desertman]

I think you are right about hu terms having work that feels crucial. Its worth discussion.

This is going to be a great change for non-crafter House merchants and House Family/Agents who aren't crafters who want to get their orders filled and go back to playing politics.

In my opinion, it is going to serve to further hurt how meaningful playing a grass-roots crafter and hunter in a House feels. I also speculate it is going to make filling those roles even more difficult than they already are at times now.

We will see how it goes.

[Delirium]

I'm all for making it possible for merchants to fulfill orders without relying on staff intervention - freeing up staff time can only be a good thing.

That isn't a problem.

The larger problem, as I see it, is that the GMH have won. They have nothing to struggle for. They're top dogs. They don't need to fight each other. They don't need to use their "hunters" as assassins, thugs, and guardsmen. They don't need to compete with (most) small indie outfits. You don't "need" to guard the wagons. You don't "need" to make caravan and supply runs. There's little to no real danger presented by the coded world. They have little left to do except for relatively sparse politicking and jockeying for position that is ultimately meaningless due to the lack of ability to affect real change - for better or worse. If you degraded relationships between the Houses, I about guarantee they'd shut YOU down rather than the opposing house, in favor of profits. While sensible, that leads to stagnation and lack of any real, meaty conflict, and keeps most of that conflict behind meeting-room doors.

The only House which has ever felt like it has a reason to keep fighting and struggling is, on occasion, House Kurac - and even then, those occasions are rarer than I'd like.

When you've won, the story becomes far less interesting, because there's far less immediate conflict the players can sink their teeth into.

Fix that, and the GMH will be more interesting. It isn't about being able to fulfill orders. It isn't about needing to go hunt gortok #8978.

It's about conflict, and that's what the GMH lack.

[Jihelu]

From what I'm getting through all of this, are GMH hunters babied? Hunting when it's only fun or something.

[Barzalene]

I'm all for making it possible for merchants to fulfill orders without relying on staff intervention - freeing up staff time can only be a good thing.

That isn't a problem.

The larger problem, as I see it, is that the GMH have won. They have nothing to struggle for. They're top dogs. They don't need to fight each other. They don't need to use their "hunters" as assassins, thugs, and guardsmen. They don't need to compete with (most) small indie outfits. You don't "need" to guard the wagons. You don't "need" to make caravan and supply runs. There's little to no real danger presented by the coded world. They have little left to do except for relatively sparse politicking and jockeying for position that is ultimately meaningless due to the lack of ability to affect real change - for better or worse. If you degraded relationships between the Houses, I about guarantee they'd shut YOU down rather than the opposing house, in favor of profits. While sensible, that leads to stagnation and lack of any real, meaty conflict, and keeps most of that conflict behind meeting-room doors.

The only House which has ever felt like it has a reason to keep fighting and struggling is, on occasion, House Kurac - and even then, those occasions are rarer than I'd like.

When you've won, the story becomes far less interesting, because there's far less immediate conflict the players can sink their teeth into.

Fix that, and the GMH will be more interesting. It isn't about being able to fulfill orders. It isn't about needing to go hunt gortok #8978.

It's about conflict, and that's what the GMH lack.

At first I thought, 'Delirium is absolutely right.' But as I continued to ponder my second thought is that there is a lot of stress and obstacles for the GMH. The problem is that its not inclusive or visible enough most days. For the purpose of this conversation that may come down to the same thing.

[Harmless]

The problem I see is that the NPC merchant that sells craftables takes a commodity that is essentially infinite (coin) and creates a product that is in short supply normally. From infinite supply to short supply --> now your formerly rare, hard to create item is essentially infinite.

I totally agree with Dman and Delirium, that sucks.


How's this? Instead of taking mundane obsidian coins, the NPC merchant only accepts "House credit." In order to gain "House credit," you need to supply a NPC merchant (maybe the same one) with something in finite supply --> crafted goods.

This could all be "simulated" with regular coins. Again, it requires discipline on the part of the GMH merchants, but with no additional coding your merchants and hunters will still be invaluable.




On week 1, Hunters and Crafters produce 10 Durrit-hide armor pieces, 10 mekillot bone weapons, and 10 salt worm tooth daggers. These commodities are all fairly common but are also House only recipes that people generally like.

However, on Week 2, Lord Templar Brannigan wants a custom made, Kiyet-hide red skirt to wear. And he wants it YESTERDAY.

Sadly, on Week 2, Hunters and Crafters are busy with RL shit, or there's just a few of them, and there's NO KIYET HIDES IN THE STORES. There's no plans for any hunting trips soon, so that's bad!!

What does GMH merchant do? He exchanges some of Week 1's surplus for "House Credit."

He brings some of the durrit-hide armor pieces and the weapons into the special NPC merchant area only senior merchants and agents have access to. He looks at the Kiyet-hide red skirt that Lord Templar Brannigan desires, and sees its cost of 1500 coins.

**RATHER THAN DIGGING OUT THE COIN FROM HIS POCKET,** he then /sells/ the durrit-hide armor pieces and the salt-worm tooth daggers to the merchant to accumulate at least 1500 coins. Then he buys the kiyet-hide skirt.

//Instead of selling, if the NPC merchant doesn't accept the sale, he could then simulate selling by using his value skill on the durrit-hide armor and weapons and simply /junking/ them until he's junked a total of 1500 to virtually exchange for the skirt.//

Takers?