GMH Hunters - What's Up With That?

[Jihelu]

Considering you probably meet and go past countless nameless npcs one of them stepping up and being your boss/a good hunter isn't unheard of I would think.

[Semper]

I kind of talked about this before, but I think this is just another thing that supports my particular view. Gunna make yall suffer through my logic again.

Currently (even more so with the changes) the only real difference with gmh vs indie hunters are:
GMH (who get these benefits right from the start)
-established compound and relatively safe storage
-pcs to interact with
-other people to help keep your pc busy (crafters, agents, boss hunters)
-some rules to follow to keep your pc alive
-free equipment and tools

Indie (must build everything you get from scratch unless you join an established indie group)
-On your own and can do whatever you want

As an experienced player, the indie option seems so much more appealing. If you already know how to get everything that a gmh can provide, what other incentive is there for you to join them in exchange for your independence? With the new changes, house hunters have even less of a real reason to be hunting, since they make their coins on a salary. No matter how much you work as a gmh hunter, other than a few bonuses you might get if your boss is nice, it doesnt matter how much you bring in.

What I think joining a gmh should actually be providing is safety and security. Not only physical safety/security, but political and social. If you are an indie, you should have to be looking over your shoulder no matter where you are, and to feel a real threat to your well-being if you are not on top of things.

If the game has more conflict between groups, where there is a real threat for pcs unless they are associated with someone in power, then I believe gmhs can be a way to attract more players, and really drive plots along. If the center of power and plots are between large groups, then this should appeal to players of all experiences.

Ultimately, I say the game could be more dangerous for everyone. Then coded power (how good your twinking skills are) becomes less of an issue, and that political and social interaction comes to the forefront. Breeds, muls, non-gammed mages, all of these fringe characters feel more threatened because they don't have a powerful group to protect them. Indies without association to a person in power are vulnerable to the political machinations of group conflict. Staying in a mob of other pcs (and being accepted by them, or even becoming a leader among them) is appealing because alone you are vulnerable.

But right now, that is not really the case. I could probably be way more successful than a gmh family member if I avoid interaction for a while and twink up, and then make more coins than even nobles without a threat to my pcs safety or wellbeing.

I say make the cities more dangerous. Give having a political connection more weight and power. Then let everyone consolidate into two or three really big powers who compete against each other for limited resources left remaining both inside and outside the city. More than anything, make safe zones such as apartments limited resources and "Dark Places" in the city be actually dangerous. Consolidate safe zones then pcs will be forced to gather together and interact with each other. Thise who don't fit in are forced to live out in the wilds.

[Kol]

Kill indies, hide behind your PC leader. If they're a good leader, they'll thank you before they throw you to the wolves. If the wolves even care.

If you're a leader, you should be encouraging these activities. It ensures that, even if it's just rumor, the next generation remembers that working for a GMH is safer than striking out on your own to step on toes.

If you're not a leader, why are you not doing everything your leadr tells you while searching for that opportune moment to stick a dagger in their back?

If you're an indy, well.....hope your purse is bigger than a GMH's.

[Barzalene]

I played in GMH houses periodically over the last several years. My experiences both as an employee and as a leader have been all over the board. In 2002 or 2003 I played in Kurac, and watched a plot unfold where a couple of people betrayed the house and were hunted down and killed. That was so awesome.
I didn't play in Kurac during the liberation of Tuluk, but I got captured by them and I think I was the last person they killed at a bout 6 in the morning after staying up all night. You could tell those people were having fun.
I played a GMH leader who was at times subpar, at times mediocre and at times hit moments of magic. There are times when things come together and everyone is involved and working together and the flavor is just Armageddon. There's an experience just peculiar to clans. There's something about being part of something permanent and important (icly at least important) that makes the great merchant houses really close to my heart.

But you have other times when it's just eh. No one is connected. You just all eat the same food. Those times just suck.

[Armaddict]

stuff

Pretty much the same discussion as the noble discussion, really.  It would be nice for there to be a crimcode revamp, so that we could take care of the lack of desire for clans and other 'little' things like the discussion of brawling at the same time.  Essentially...as you climb the social ladder, the 'safety' of the city becomes more secure.  Or at least the city response to threats to that safety.

That and warring clans.  I really want warring clans.  This was, again, the gist of what I was going for with my 'gate village' thing and required wait time to get into the city proper.  Turn that into a more populous, crime-ridden, capitalist-price-gouging area that indies and low-ranking members of society just...have to go through, due to the bureaucracy of security at the city gates.  Some people would just live and make their living out there.  Crim code remains intact inside, but getting inside is a pain, and patrols outside are less common and usually more for directed incidents of worry.  Merchant houses, on the other hand...have special dealings.  They don't wait at gates, they get waved on through.  Noble houses, likewise, don't wait, and they're the only ones that can escort indies and such through.

Things like that.  I derailed into my idea, but essentially...crimcode.  Yeah.  It's late and I rambled.

[solera]

Considering you probably meet and go past countless nameless npcs one of them stepping up and being your boss/a good hunter isn't unheard of I would think.

It doesn't stop you being antsy when they land in the middle of Your crew. That's what I find in a similar situation in my RL.

[Patuk]

A lot of people seem to be saying that GMH's are good for special plots or whatever. That hunters can also be used as makeshift assassins or spies and you get invited to dinner parties or whatever and everything is cool.

And I say, fine, but that's not a GMH person thing, that's an everyone thing.

If I want to do all of that, I can just as easily roll up a soldier, a partisan in the north, or join the amber wyverns. Hell, if I make an independent hunter and start passing random political people coin, chances are they'll like me a hundred times better than any GMH agent out there. Saying GMH hunters are fun for the connections and activities about it is like saying the byn is fun because it has people inside it: it's not exactly a unique feature.

So, if GMHs are to have crews of multiple PC hunters, actually let them hunt for a reason.

[Dakota]

So basically this thread was started b/c Indie Hunters want to get in on GMH plots and fun?

Everybody wants Cake and wants to eat it too.

If you're bored in your GMH House, leave. The Rebel command is used too little.

[Barzalene]

Hint to pc leaders in GMH
Junk stuff once a month. Have minions sell excess and give them sid. Use all you can. But when that's done and there is still too much stuff, quietly, when no one can see, junk it in huge batches. Don't tell the hunters you're doing it.

[Barzalene]

Not that it will fix everything. It won't. It would be good to make the hunters feel more crucial. But I don't think anyone in the game feels crucial all the time (with exceptions for the spectacular players.) Junking things will only make them feel less redundant.

[RogueGunslinger]

I've pretty much only had good experiences with hunters of any type. Clanned, unclanned, it's a great role, and the few drawbacks for clans or for indies are hardly ever enough to trump the inherent fun that being a hunter gives.

[Is Friday]

A lot of people seem to be saying that GMH's are good for special plots or whatever. That hunters can also be used as makeshift assassins or spies and you get invited to dinner parties or whatever and everything is cool.

And at the same time, GMH focus should be on completing tasks. There's "room" for plotting, but nothing is more annoying as a GMH mil leader than to roll in to find that you have 5 assassin-types picking doors on the regular and trying to murder people instead of hunting.

GMH hunting crews are for hunters first and foremost, not femme assassins.

[whitt]

So basically this thread was started b/c Indie Hunters want to get in on GMH plots and fun?

Everybody wants Cake and wants to eat it too.

If you're bored in your GMH House, leave. The Rebel command is used too little.

Um, no.

This thread was started to discuss what the benefits are of having GMH Hunters versus the GMH using indie hunters.  To the Houses, to the players, and to the game.

[Semper]

I think this is pretty much the same issue as the Noble Power thread. Gmh should have certain advantages that appeal to players over being an indie hunter, but that just isnt the case in a lot of situations. Whether that is accurate or not is up for debate.

[Desertman]

I thought this thread was started as a way to propose ideas to make being a GMH hunter more appealing.

Most notably, by making what they do....hunt....actually matter in terms of the success and progression of the House/the specific unit they are part of.

As it stands, nothing they gather matters in any meaningful way because everything would get produced no matter what by staff-loaded items anyways if the hunters didn't exist (and often times even if they do).

Once the NPC with all of the items goes in, hunters will actually serve to slow down the process if anything. If the hunters didn't exist, there would be a valid excuse on behalf of the merchant to just auto-instant load everything.

Nothing a GMH hunter does matters in terms of hunting in reality. For me personally, it has always made the role unfulfilling.

My proposal:

• 
  Provide the crafters in the Houses once they reach a certain rank with a list off all craftable items and their recipes. This way they can tell hunters exactly what they need and tell clients exactly what they can make. This produces things for people to do that matter.
  
  Put the auto-load NPC in but only with items that are not craftable. This way it doesn't screw with the meaningful things the PC's are doing. There is also no "instant alternative" if the hunters didn't exist.
  
  Use the list on the NPC's as a go-to list of items, "We need to make crafting recipes for.", when staffers have free time, or possibly the new builders as well? This could be something great for them to work on that would actually help the game world, the economy, and the fun/usefulness of these roles.

Right now the mindset is, "They will only use the NPC if there are no hunters and crafters available to make the items, or the hunters and crafters they have aren't good enough to get them what they need.".

While I see why that is the case, I also see that it makes playing a hunter, or a crafter in a lot of cases, feel like a secondary flavor role where nothing you do matters. It doesn't matter if I exist or not, and in fact, if I didn't, this order would get filled much faster.

I much prefer the idea of leaders having (because no other options) to scramble to produce actual productive crews instead of producing productive crews being something they have the option to do for success. If they can't/are having too hard of a time of it....they just use the NPC for success.

One of these creates plots and pushes the idea of branching out and scrambling to come up with new inventive ways to be successful. The other just lets them have a fallback if their "best efforts" aren't fruitful.

In the end, this is the scenario you have when playing a House hunter.

The Merchant House Merchant says to you, "I need you to figure out a way with your crew to harvest me four kryl shells First Hunter. I have to have these.".

The character is saying, "Absolutely Merchant House Merchant, I will do my best with my crew.".

The player is thinking, "But we both know if I don't, it doesn't matter, whatever it is will just get made anyways.".

It is compounded further with the new NPC system, "We both know if I didn't exist at all you would have the order already filled.".

That doesn't make me feel good about what I'm accomplishing with my role as a House hunter and I think players like to feel good about what they are accomplishing.

[Desertman]

Adding that my way seems just as fruitful in terms of cutting down the staff's workload without leaving a bad taste in the mouth's hunter PCs in regards to their actual meaningful usefulness.

They still will not have to load any items into the game. The players have an entire list of everything they can produce through their own IC efforts.

They have an NPC to load everything they can't.

Either they are successful by the sweat of their brow, or they aren't. If they aren't, staff can animate the right higher ranking NPC's to come kick some ass.

If they are, staff can animate the higher ranking NPC's to come spread some praise and possible rewards.

What staff doesn't have to do? Ever answer another question about loading items.

You have the sandbox and all of the tools you need. It is up to you now.

Will there be some nobles or Templars along the way that want, "This specific item that is craftable and not on the instant-NPC.", that might have to wait because your crew needs time to get the materials/you need time to IC'ly figure out how? Yes. But, that creates plots and drives production and makes people feel useful.

You know what doesn't? Walk to NPC. Get item. Walk back to Templar. Walk to bank.

I just see so much potential and so much awesome to be had here and I feel like we are missing an opportunity.

I would love to play the House hunter that got told, "Look Amos, Lord Templar Borsail wants this breastplate. I can make it, but I need this shell. If you get it or not determines if we make this Templar happy. There is no other way. Go be awesome.".

Welcome to my dream hunter role sign-me-the-fuck-up.

(I'm not trying to poo poo on staff's idea of making the NPC have everything. I'm just trying to make a few roles a lot more fun in terms of what I enjoy personally and that I hope other people will enjoy. I just want to make the game better for everyone. I only have my own experiences to work with in terms of providing those ideas.)

[whitt]

In the end, this is the scenario you have when playing a House hunter.

The Merchant House Merchant says to you, "I need you to figure out a way with your crew to harvest me four kryl shells First Hunter. I have to have these.".

The character is saying, "Absolutely Merchant House Merchant, I will do my best with my crew.".

The player is thinking, "But we both know if I don't, it doesn't matter, whatever it is will just get made anyways.".

It is compounded further with the new NPC system, "We both know if I didn't exist at all you would have the order already filled.".

I think the above is a reasonable view of things.  However I think there are a few assumptions in there.

First, that there is no limit to the amount of resources that can be requested from the NPC suppliers.  
Second, that the the cost to the merchant would be negligible to get the resource from the NPC supplier.
Third, that there is no delay between asking for and receiving said resource.

If instead the conversation played out as:

The Merchant House Merchant says to you, "I checked and it'll take a month to get these four kryl shells I need and cost me two large to have someone escort the shipment here.   I need you to figure out a way with your crew to harvest them sooner, First Hunter. I have to have these for Lady Whatsername and Lord Whosit."

The Hunter Character is saying, "Absolutely Merchant House Merchant, I will do my best with my crew.".

The Hunter Player is thinking, "I should be able to get one or two, I'd have to do nothing else to get all four and Amos would almost certainly get eaten."

The Merchant House Merchant is thinking, "If they get me one... I can get started, two I can fill Lady Whatsername's order and three gets me almost all the way there.  I'll order two now just to be safe."

It is supported by the new NPC system, "We both know if I didn't exist at all you would have the order filled, but it would have been another RL week and you'd have spent more sid getting those tiles, so how about you throw your hunters a bone."

I'm still not sure what the GMH gains from using a GMH Hunter instead of outsourcing hunting to independent hunters / groups.

[Barzalene]

I'm still not sure what the GMH gains from using a GMH Hunter instead of outsourcing hunting to independent hunters / groups.

Fun, and the perpetuation of tradition and structure of the game world.

For a while Nenyuk was open with a vastly reduced ability to recruit. It was hard to fill those roles. And the last one that lasted more than a couple of months was in 2001. (Several years before they closed.) No one wants to be king of an empty kingdom.

[Patuk]

I think whitt and Desertman are both correct, even if their positions might seem a little mutually exclusive.

Making hunters truly useful by ensuring their produce is the only way items can be created makes sure being a hunter is fulfilling.

Conversely, if hunters become too useless through this added NPC, I think outsourcing your rare GMH hunting needs becomes useful. It's a way for independent groups to naturally form and compete over things.

Right now we're kind of stuck in the middle of things where GMH hunters are apparently needed enough that every House keeps a cadre because reasons, but not so needed that they actually will be getting shit people want most of the time.

[Nyr]

For what it is worth, we do not provide crafting lists.  At this time, the plan is that the auto-load NPCs will load stock items regardless of whether they can be crafted or not.  We generally make decisions about the game based on past behaviors, using facts.  In this case, we know item orders are not that fun for those that have to do them.  This includes staff and players.  Many players suggested this as a solution to the problem of item orders.  It can be implemented with some not-insurmountable work.  However, we generally do not make decisions about the game based on slight concerns about future clan leaders making completely OOC decisions that they shouldn't be making.  It is far easier to just say "this is the policy, this is what should happen, please refer to these docs," and deal with the (likely rare, knowing our playerbase) case-by-case situations that might occur in the future.  Players are generally pretty good about sticking to documentation and working their staff when there are issues.

[Saellyn]

GMHs have gotten along just fine thus far without crafting lists. Hunters get to do cool shit in a crew, like explore dangerous places with a (generally) better survivability. What's cooler than that?

Getting ginka fruits with your badass companions. What's cooler than that?

Hunting the fabled roc which I STILL HAVE NEVER EVER SEEN SO IT MUST NOT EXIST.

What's cooler than that?

Not a fucking lot, and you can't generally do that kind of shit alone.

[Semper]

I assume then that customers are still expected to wait a rl week or two for an order, but if a hunter can get the item and a crafter fix it up before the time frame, then the customer can get the item sooner? And if the staff load up craftable items, isnt that pretty much providing a merchant with a list of all craftable items? They would just have to analyze the item to know if it is craftable, and know the recipe like that.

[Desertman]

For what it is worth, we do not provide crafting lists.  At this time, the plan is that the auto-load NPCs will load stock items regardless of whether they can be crafted or not.  We generally make decisions about the game based on past behaviors, using facts.  In this case, we know item orders are not that fun for those that have to do them.  This includes staff and players.  Many players suggested this as a solution to the problem of item orders.  It can be implemented with some not-insurmountable work.  However, we generally do not make decisions about the game based on slight concerns about future clan leaders making completely OOC decisions that they shouldn't be making.  It is far easier to just say "this is the policy, this is what should happen, please refer to these docs," and deal with the (likely rare, knowing our playerbase) case-by-case situations that might occur in the future.  Players are generally pretty good about sticking to documentation and working their staff when there are issues.

It's just a preference thing I guess.

I would enjoy the idea of actually working IC'ly to fill orders through the IC efforts of either myself or my employees. I guess most people don't like having to do that with their merchant roles(fill orders that is). I wasn't aware obviously.

That isn't for everyone I guess. Just putting in my two cents for what I would like if it were me. (And I'm apparently in the minority. Meh. Sadness.)

I'm a prick though. My next "old man shaking his fist on his lawn" response would be, "If they don't like doing what merchant Houses do, fill orders, they shouldn't app those roles". Obviously, that wouldn't be productive, but, it is how I feel.

[Harmless]

It'd be cool if GMH merchants just disciplined themselves and waited 1 RL week to load items that could otherwise be made through GMH hunter/crafter efforts. You got 1 RL week to do it by normal means, if you can't make it in that timeframe, tough shit, the customer has been waiting and they get their shit now. No bonus for you.

I think that's totally fair. And requires absolutely no staff intervention, so I can totally see why it's been added.

[Desertman]

I also have a habit of playing roles that aren't horribly newbie friendly. In retrospect, it would be pretty difficult for newer players to be successful on an IC level with my system. I guess staff has to consider the full spectrum of playability and enjoyment and not just the abilities of veterans.

As a vet, I could rock that roll.

Thinking back to when I was a newbie, I would be lost and could never make that work and would never be able to fill orders. 

I had not considered that.