GMH Hunters - What's Up With That?

[whitt]

Because as a (newish) player I've thought about playing one...

What are the ups and downs IC & OOC of playing a GMH Hunter?

I do see Dman's point, and if I may summarize it a bit:

Even without the change, a hunter in a GMH felt a bit like a flavour role; compared to independent hunters, a GMH hunter doesn't need to hunt, neither (a) to provide for themselves nor (b) to provide for their crafts/merchants.  The move to NPCs would just amplify this feeling.

I think this might be right but I wonder if it is a bad thing.  After all, there's a lot more plot-wise going on in a GMH than hunting - and in fact the basic "go hunt me a tok hide" plot gets dull pretty fast.  Hence, the change might encourage GMH plots to move in the other direction (whatever they are).

I think this might be worth a thread of its own, frankly, so it doesn't get confused with the awesomeness of the proposed changes, because let's be honest: on a whole, it is far more frustrating to be stuck in the "my lord ordered that fancy handkerchief three years ago, you are telling me you haven't been able to get the material for it yet" plot.

I overanalyze... apologies in advance.

The "Problem" - There aren't enough skilled hunters in any GMH to meet the IC demand.  As a result, materials needed to craft aren't present.  Merchant PCs get frustrated because they can't find what they need to craft.  Customer PCs get frustrated with the Merchant PCs.  Merchant PCs get more frustrated because now in addition to demands they "should" be able to meet as a member of a GMH, they are catching shit about it over the Way, while also getting more orders streamed into their head.  Orders they know they won't be able to meet, because... see above.

Why aren't there enough skilled hunters in the GMHs?  Because you need a magickal combination of an experienced player that knows where to go to "safely" get these materials and a character that has been alive ICly long enough to have the skills to reliably retrieve these materials.  Oh.  And that player/character combination needs to come in a package willing and able to play primarily to meet the needs of  another PC while also constantly training new hunters that come and go because they don't have the right mix of luck/skill/dedication to the House.

Reality is, those Players/Characters who are totally dedicated to playing with one House are few and far between.  Merchants/Agents stick around.  Hunters?  Not surprisingly, not so much.

So what's the fix?  To me?  The "fix" seems to be to ditch the concept of GMH Hunters.  Have the Houses outsource their Hunting to Indy Hunters.  Get what you can IC for whatever price you can IC.  If you can't get it IC, pay a set cost for that resource (probably more than you would pay IC) to get it from another (OOC) source.  If someone comes along that a GMH can readily get supplies from on a regular basis, they'll naturally give that Hunter discounts in an effort to retain them, but there wouldn't be an expectation of a GMH House Hunter role.

[nauta]

MMV, but my experience (which might've just been a random fluke) as a Corporal Hunter in a GMH last year was more or less this (I think I was in the GMH clan for five or six months): there were usually 2-3 hunters in the clan, and very rarely would all the hunters be on at the same time.  We had a rule that you couldn't go out of the gates without a Corporal - and for a while without being three-people thick - and we didn't have a Corporal for about 2-3 months.  The merchant would ask for certain neat items which I couldn't possibly get on my own.  Every once in a while a giant would show up and we'd totally get that item.  Every once in a while the other GMH's hunters (who seemed to have the same problem) would team up with our hunters and we'd totally get that item.  But I think in like five or six months, we managed to actually acquire material to make like one helmet or something.  Every once in a while we got a hunter who would just go out and hunt on his or her own despite the house rules, and they usually ended up dead (although productive until then!).  We would go on 'hunts' now and then as mini-RPTs but very rarely did we actually get anything useful.

I can see how this might feel futile to some people, but I actually thought playing a hunter was fun even if all the hunting we did that was useful occurred virtually.  There were other things going on in the GMH to keep me entertained, and other aspects to being a GMH hunter that distinguish you RP-wise from your regular independent hunter (swag, getting invited to dinner parties, getting involved in House politics, promotions).

I have no suggestions on what to change, or even if anything needs to change - although I'd be curious to hear what other experiences were like.

[Down Under]

I just don't think we have a large enough player base to allow for that kind of micro-managing.

Almost every organization requires the virtual population to fill in the gaps where it would make IC sense for them to do so. Tenneshi? Virtual/NPC labor to cover the building, sort of not allowing PC laborers or artisans. Borsail? Virtual slavers/slaving, to account for the lack of PC slavers and slaves. And so on. The virtual world is represented, but PC's fill a different niche.

I think there's always room for the GMH hunter...I played a First Hunter in Kadius, and perceived none of the problems Desertman mentions with playing a Hunter and feeling 'useless'. I had political savvy, sway, and could go hunting with my bros when I wanted to, bring back the kills, turn them over to the crafters to make some shit out of, and rinse and repeat. If anything I felt over-valued for my position.

The contractual basis with the GMH is also an appeal for certain PC types -- Not needing to life-oath-swear, like almost every other organization, though that seems to be changing.

One of the major appeals of a GMH Hunter is freedom -- So I definitely see 'You can't go hunting unless you have a Corporal' as draconic and self-defeating to the purpose of the role. Hunters are by their nature the 'explorer' type, and like roughing it on their own. Your hunters are likely not going to have a high life-expectancy -- That sort of rule applies much better to an Aide or someone you need alive, within the walls. Having a dangerous job description isn't aided or alleviated by having restrictions to city limits.

The GMH also shouldn't make big investments in hunters until they reach a certain rank, and have proven they won't get eaten by Gortok #212 once they're given a full suit of leathers and a longbow. Give them a cut of the profits of stuff they bring in and let them build their own 'suit of armor' and 'longbow'. Then give them some swag when they're promoted.

I haven't really seen/had any problems with the role of GMH hunter as it is perceived.

[Miko]

Going hunting with other people is just as likely to get you killed as going alone.

True story: I was hunting in a dangerous area with a GMH hunter and one partner. Said partner got wounded a bit and panicked. And typed flee self at least three times. That random movement caused partner to run straight into a huge mob of 10+ deadly npc monsters that had originally been at least three or four rooms away from our position before he got wounded. His continuous spam fleeing brought him closer to me again before the massive mob cut him down. Because said monsters have hunt, before long they were onto my PC and then my PC died too.

Lessons: flee self is by far the stupidest strategy imaginible. You obviously want to flee in the direction you rode in from, to avoid getting caught by more badguys. He went straight ahead, not back, by at least two or three rooms. Totally inexperienced move.

His inexperience got us both killed.

The model of forcing GMH to work together in hunts is not always, but sometimes is a death sentence. And not necessarily a fun one to RP because my above story all started and ended in less than 30 seconds. My partner somehow managed to pull over ten enemies onto my head.

Frustratingly, the same partner insulted my PC incessantly a few weeks before that and claimed someday my PC would be getting people killed. The whole experience with that GMH was bad enough that I m pretty sure I won't be playing GMH at all for the next few years if ever as a hunter. I agree completely with Dman's assessment that paying indies makes as much if not more sense.

[Malken]

But you get free water and a locker!

lulz

I remember when I was playing an indie hunter in Tuluk and I was constantly seeing this poor Salarr hunter/corporal dude.. Holy crap how happy I was not to be him on a daily basis.. The guy had to bounce back and forth between Tuluk and Allanak to take care of daily drama and idiotic recruits while everyone was banging his mate in his back. I think he finally drove himself to a suicidal edge and I don't blame him one second for it.

[valeria]

There are ups and downs.  If you want to hunt unrestricted, play an indie.  You will feel too constrained in a GMH hunter role.  But if you want an opportunity to be involved in plots, probably be more respected and "respectable" IC,  and don't mind some restriction at first,  give GMH a try. 

I had a really good time with my short-lived GMH hunter and would totally do it again.  Like a lot of semi restricted city ripples,  you have to make sure you're playing a characte that has things they can do during downtime.  Going out recruiting is usually a good one. 

[Harmless]

An interesting point is that "inexperience" is obviously both IC and OOC/meta. I'm sure I'm not the only player of this game who has rolled up over a dozen hunters and had over a dozen deaths in the wilderness. Those deaths all accumulate in my, the player's skillset. Obviously, not -all- of those skills should belong to every one of my PCs.

..Unless I give them the background that backs up the combined experience and skills that I have as a player, that is.

How do I do this? I would probably role app for a GMH private (i.e., one step above recruit) level hunter, right off the bat. In my background, I would put in all the OOC/meta stuff that explains why, as a player, I actually know my shit (essentially, my past PCs in GMH roles), as well as the IC reasoning for why my PC knows his or hers. For example, my role-apped GMH hunter has been trained since the age of 12 to hunt. This is not a novel concept. I've seen various PCs in game that have this exact background -- they were adopted or born into the house at an early age, so they know their shit.

What -doesn't- work is forcing GMH to recruit from the ranks of already alive PCs all the time. That gets you -some- good PCs, but also plenty of bad ones. Then, PCs argue with each other because they feel entitled to since they're the same rank. There is frustration over the restrictions placed on recruits by players who have done the cycle so many times it gets old.

Is it elitist to allow players to role-app into an auto-promotion in GMH? I don't think so. If I have a few karma to back up that I can, indeed, play a role, and if I have the player history that shows that I've been playing dozens upon dozens of characters, many of whom were warriors/hunters/rangers, then I don't see what's elitist. You're just saving the whole game world time by letting me auto-load in my Private-level hunter, instead of forcing me to roll up from scratch, struggle to find a GMH hiring hunter, and or go to the Byn to get the coded skill to back up my future application, etc etc.

TL;DR: Let us role-app into GMH as private-rank hunters, give us as many skill boosts as our karma allows (or an extended subguild, yum), then watch the GMH hunting divisions start flourishing again. The reasoning is the same as the change to the vNPC/NPC item loaders: get the economy of GMH back on track, and the mechanism is simple: trust that players with hundreds of reports and thousands of hours played as hunters know what they're doing and get them in game, ready to start hunting.

This may already be possible, but I think it should be advertised more. Kadius and Salarr should be accepting roles all the time for already promoted hunters. The simplest requirement should be, if you've been promoted to that rank at least once before in that GMH, and you are an experienced player, then you should generally get the spot (assuming spots are open and there is a need for this, of course). That'd allow someone like me to hop back into GMH, as well as many, many other players, while filtering out those who didn't follow the rules with past PCs long enough to make it to their first promotion.

I would much rather see something like the above happen rather than having hunters become obsolete because of NPCs.

[Malken]

There are ups and downs.  If you want to hunt unrestricted, play an indie.  You will feel too constrained in a GMH hunter role.  But if you want an opportunity to be involved in plots, probably be more respected and "respectable" IC,  and don't mind some restriction at first,  give GMH a try.  

I had a really good time with my short-lived GMH hunter and would totally do it again.  Like a lot of semi restricted city ripples,  you have to make sure you're playing a characte that has things they can do during downtime.  Going out recruiting is usually a good one.  

The thing about being an "experienced" Armageddon player is that at some point you know exactly where to hunt and what to hunt so that you don't get yourself killed AND get mighty great at doing it. I mean, when I play hunters, I can guarantee on a 90% chance that I won't get myself killed stupidly AND that I can probably (if unrealistically so) clean up the whole grasslands and scrublands or the beetles land in a pretty quick way. I'll be in great demand and people will get to know me and I'll have plots a plenty. Now put me in a GMH where I'm stuck waiting for people or I'm stuck with idiots and you've shut my productivity down by 100% and I probably won't have the patience to stay in your House long enough to get productive. Also I don't face the "jealousy" that indie crafters often get from GMH because I'm actually useful to the GMHs by selling them what they need while their own House hunters can't really deliver due to said restrictions I've mentioned.

But that's me.. I mean, when I played with you in Winrothol we had an awesome group and we did awesome things together but that sort of group dynamic only happens (and happened) RARELY to me so this is why I prefer to play my hunters solo (or at least if I'm going to work for a House, I -always- wait till I can at least look like I know what I'm doing and then negotiate a clause where I'm free to do as I wish as long as I'm productive)

[valeria]

Right, different people will have different levels of aversion to IC restrictions.  You as an experienced player have good reasons for wanting to play indies.  I as an experienced player don't mind the restrictions because they're usually short-lived and I can do city things like hang out, tavern sit, or recruit in my downtime.  I wouldn't recommend a GMH hunter to anyone that can't handle the downtime without going stir crazy.  But if you're the kind of player who can, the role can be really rewarding.

[nauta]

TL;DR: Let us role-app into GMH as private-rank hunters

Why not just role app into a position like Sergeant/First Hunter (and maybe even: Crewleader/Overseer, Agent)?  I'm not sure if you are only allowed to do this once a rolecall goes out, but I know that these positions are quite often dormant (and maybe even always dormant if we take into account North/South divisions - has there ever been two Crewleaders/Overseers or two active Sergeants in a GMH?).

[Harmless]

That'd be fine too, but my assumption was in line with yours, that leader-level positions were on a role-call basis. So, my proposal is we let hunters in more often (i.e., anytime a player wants to), but at a slightly lower level. Then leadership is just one promotion away, instead of two or three promotions away, for an experienced player.

[Harmless]

Right, different people will have different levels of aversion to IC restrictions.  You as an experienced player have good reasons for wanting to play indies.  I as an experienced player don't mind the restrictions because they're usually short-lived and I can do city things like hang out, tavern sit, or recruit in my downtime.  I wouldn't recommend a GMH hunter to anyone that can't handle the downtime without going stir crazy.  But if you're the kind of player who can, the role can be really rewarding.

Valeria, I would never claim it was the restrictions that sucks about being a recruit again. I don't mind restrictions on going out the gates. What I mind more is that because my PC is a recruit they are treated like a recruit. If I was in the mood to play someone young and inexperienced then it would all be fine. But it gets kind of ridiculous having a background of an experienced hunter or soldier, then being treated like any other recruit because my PC is new.

I'd much rather just app into a higher rank so that I don't have to be treated like a kid, if my concept is not for a kid. If my concept was for a kid, then I'd rather start as a recruit. But I don't always want to play kids (sometimes I do). Other times, I want to play vets.

The role app, for me, means the political clout a promotion offers, more than gate restrictions. For example, if the caveat to role-apping a private hunter was that I still couldn't leave the gates alone, then, for me, that'd be fine. At least I don't get treated like a kid, or have people lord it over me that I was a recruit under them, etc etc. My PC was a private for several years virtually before they became non-virtual, that lends a certain respect and honor that I enjoy having.

Anyway, that's what I'd like. I'm basically asking for something in exchange for playing GMH again. So take it with a grain of salt.

[lostinspace]

When I played one, the biggest problem I had, was I signed up to hunt stuff, and I wasn't allowed out the gates. They made me go a year in the Byn before I joined up, I did enough ruff circle, I can manage to not die, let me go hunt scrabs or something. Even more so now that there are all those easier things to hunt in the south. I know it sucks to lose a hunter who you put money into training up, but if you don't let him hunt, he'll never make you any money. Change how recruit hunters work for the houses. They get some barebones gear to keep them alive, they bring in what they kill, and once they've brought in enough then really gear them up and start pointing them at bigger things to hunt.

There could even be ride alongs, where a more experienced hunter just follows you while you're hunting, asking occasional questions, and if you do well, they tell whoever is in charge and you might get accepted into the house as an official hunter. IMO, anything is better than training for a year, finally getting to be a hunter, and then -having- to sit in a tavern until someone else logs on.

[HavokBlue]

If you are a GMH recruit and you're capable of not dying like a newb, demonstrate that to your leader and ask for an exception.

Unless something has changed, they have the power to make that call.

[whitt]

So I guess my question is, what does the GMH get out of having "in-house" hunters that they couldn't get from out sourcing to the broader pool of Indy Hunters?

OOC - being able to communicate needs via Clan Board (if that's even allowed)
IC - Allegedly trustworthy hunters who will put the House's priorities first?

I can see more opportunity in opening up competition with the Indy Hunters.

OOC - Short of being trapped off-peak and when there is no hunter, find a source of material that works for your times to communicate ICly.
IC - Allegedly trustworthy hunters who will put the House's priorities first, because they are consistently paid to do so.
IC - Potential for conflict between the Houses by way of proxy skirmishes between Hunters/Mercenaries/Assassins.  No longer does killing someone's hunter have to be a huge slight against the other House. (on a both IC and OOC scale)
IC - The raft of Hunters who avoid working for Houses just because of other restrictions (no leaving the gates) can become available resources to the merchants as the merchants are no longer expected to only buy "in house".
IC - Potential for all sorts of interplay between rival hunter groups, Tuluki/Allanaki operations squaring off on the other side's "turf"
IC - Dynamically formed hunting teams that form up and break up (probably sometimes violently) based on who's available to do the work without being a hit to GMH clan resources.
IC - GMH agents/merchants visible outside the compounds as they need to gather a network of trusted Hunters and meet with them for deliveries and etc... creating opportunities for even more intrigue.

I understand there is some reason why folks might like the role of GMH Hunter.  I also see where the concerns stem from.  I think, I see a lot more opportunity if the GMHs went outside the House.

[HavokBlue]

When I played a GMH leader, I frequently used my hunters for non-murder related plots/jobs that outsourced labor could never be trusted with. New hires who could demonstrate that they weren't idiots and had a modicum of proficiency at the art of not dying horribly could leave the gates alone during their recruit period, and even the shit--for-brains redshirt recruits could leave if they took a buddy.

[Molten Heart]

Clans could benefit from a style of leadership that has less micromanagement, especially when it comes to new hires. I'd let people leave the gates and die all they wanted, I wouldn't have to pay them. Those that surived, well they'd just be better off, so would the clan, so would I.

[Talia]

That'd be fine too, but my assumption was in line with yours, that leader-level positions were on a role-call basis. So, my proposal is we let hunters in more often (i.e., anytime a player wants to), but at a slightly lower level. Then leadership is just one promotion away, instead of two or three promotions away, for an experienced player.

I don't see why an interested player couldn't ask clan staff for this. We do this on occasion in the AoD, for example (allow someone to role-app in at Private). As long as the player has experience, understands the role and the limitations and responsibilities, and can be expected to play it well, then I don't see an issue, especially if the character concept is intriguing.

[BadSkeelz]

We do this on occasion in the AoD, for example (allow someone to role-app in at Private). As long as the player has experience, understands the role and the limitations and responsibilities, and can be expected to play it well, then I don't see an issue, especially if the character concept is intriguing.

Just an FYI, please let the Sergeant or Agent know before hand or else they might wind up murdering the poor spec-app on suspicion of them being a spy

[Talia]

Just an FYI, please let the Sergeant or Agent know before hand or else they might wind up murdering the poor spec-app on suspicion of them being a spy

lawl, so true

[Jihelu]

So far I've been thinking Indie hunting is best 2018 and the most fun.
From an IC perspective of kind of disliking people and being held down, it seems great.
From an OOC perspective, not having any major cool kids equipment is kind of not fun (But thats the fun in it), but being held down more seems poopier.
That being said I havent had a GMH hunter yet.
Oh well.

[solera]

We do this on occasion in the AoD, for example (allow someone to role-app in at Private). As long as the player has experience, understands the role and the limitations and responsibilities, and can be expected to play it well, then I don't see an issue, especially if the character concept is intriguing.

Just an FYI, please let the Sergeant or Agent know before hand or else they might wind up murdering the poor spec-app on suspicion of them being a spy

It would seem a bit suspicious when this shit hot hunter turns up and expects to be treated as one of the crew. Or he says he is a vet hunter from way back. Trying to take over our job is he?

[Harmless]

That'd be fine too, but my assumption was in line with yours, that leader-level positions were on a role-call basis. So, my proposal is we let hunters in more often (i.e., anytime a player wants to), but at a slightly lower level. Then leadership is just one promotion away, instead of two or three promotions away, for an experienced player.

I don't see why an interested player couldn't ask clan staff for this. We do this on occasion in the AoD, for example (allow someone to role-app in at Private). As long as the player has experience, understands the role and the limitations and responsibilities, and can be expected to play it well, then I don't see an issue, especially if the character concept is intriguing.

Awesome! I am encouraged that this already happens and that it could happen. When I next want to do GMH hunting I'll likely be doing this.

As for AoD, I've never played it before, so naturally what I prefer to do there is make a fresh PC and get recruited, and build the PC up from scratch. I just say this to emphasize that the point of role apping into a private spot, for me, is to "pick up where I left off" in the kind of plots I was working towards, rather than feeling like I need to keep starting from the very beginning. After all, GMH hunting is one of the most ridiculously dangerous roles one can have, even if skilled/experienced, etc etc.

[Kol]

We do this on occasion in the AoD, for example (allow someone to role-app in at Private). As long as the player has experience, understands the role and the limitations and responsibilities, and can be expected to play it well, then I don't see an issue, especially if the character concept is intriguing.

Just an FYI, please let the Sergeant or Agent know before hand or else they might wind up murdering the poor spec-app on suspicion of them being a spy

It would seem a bit suspicious when this shit hot hunter turns up and expects to be treated as one of the crew. Or he says he is a vet hunter from way back. Trying to take over our job is he?

Why? I don't see a problem with this, especially if there's a vacancy in said crew, GMH/Milita/Merc whatever. Stick this in line with your skill-bump app and I'd say it's justified.

A player has a character concept in mind, but there's no guarantee that Dorf Malik with the foci of killing that grumpy shit in friels and taking his luxurious place is ever going to get into Kurac in the first place. So he writes up his concept, spends a skill-bump app to get himself up to where he would be at that point in his said career, and gets into game.

Malik rolls in, looking around with purpose in his eye, this is where he's worked to get to, this is his moment to shine!

"Who the fuck are you?"

"Malik, I'm yer new panty-sniffer, transferred in from the 4th's cock-block squad."


Happens in military forces all the time. Most clans in the game have a pretty militant structure.

[BadSkeelz]

Yeah, it's a fine practice. I just kind of throttled someone who might have been doing it because my PC wasn't forewarned of a sudden addition by any superior (and my PC was a paranoid asshole anyway).