External Conflict with Meaningful Interaction

[Barzalene]

The OP and followups seem to be about sweeping change, so sweeping change is what I responded to.

You're certainly free to propose more moderate ideas.

Ok, but you are free to participate.

Text is hard and I'm sure I'm reading you wrong, but it sounds like you're saying, "Your idea sucks. Shut up."  But you're a reasonable guy and I'd bet that wasn't what you meant at all.

[Marauder Moe]

I did participate.  Indeed, I don't like the idea.  (Actually I do like the parts about price adjustments and more rotating shop inventories.)

However, it's certainly not within my right or power to tell anyone to shut up about it.

[Semper]

Looking back, my original post did have a lot of sweeping changes. I think I'm kind of back-tracking and saying we really don't need all those changes, why not just work on the crim code?

[Malken]

Looking back, my original post did have a lot of sweeping changes. I think I'm kind of back-tracking and saying we really don't need all those changes, why not just work on the crim code?

Or you could just continue with your ideas and realize that Marauder Moe has been in a shitty GDB mood for the last couple of days.

[Thunkkin]

Suggestions 4 and 5 are awesome.

On a side note, I still remember on my first "real" character getting promoted to Corporal in the AoD. And I was told that I couldn't arrest people or incriminate them. I recall a criminal mocking me about his crime and telling me "What are you going to do about it?" And there were no templars on. So the answer was ... nothing. Beyond tattling. With a few more chars under my belt, I'd probably just kill him now and suffer the consequences, but back when I was a no karma newb, I was far too afraid of going against the (very OOC) rules.

It would be great if all these soldiers and cool fighting orders/traditions had a purpose in the game - like keeping the peace, keeping people alive, exerting/maintaining their House's power, etc. on a day to day basis, not just during occasional RPTs.

[Riev]

It would be great if all these soldiers and cool fighting orders/traditions had a purpose in the game - like keeping the peace, keeping people alive, exerting/maintaining their House's power, etc. on a day to day basis, not just during occasional RPTs.

Marry me.

Does anyone know if like... staff would be open to plotlines of "Well, some tribals have really been making a mockery of some noble, so the noble hires the Byn to go to their (generated) camp and do what they can"? I mean, its tough, because anything people would hire the Byn for.. they could probably just take care of it themselves. Anyone that annoys the Byn, annoys a Warband of trained fighters.

So, honestly, what sort of things could come up that would need a trained Shit Soldier next to you, or sent out to do harm (that wouldn't turn into assembling the army)? Other than dangerous streets, I don't know, and any PC that "makes the streets dangerous" dies AWFUL quick.

[Semper]

It would be great if all these soldiers and cool fighting orders/traditions had a purpose in the game - like keeping the peace, keeping people alive, exerting/maintaining their House's power, etc. on a day to day basis, not just during occasional RPTs.

Marry me.

Does anyone know if like... staff would be open to plotlines of "Well, some tribals have really been making a mockery of some noble, so the noble hires the Byn to go to their (generated) camp and do what they can"? I mean, its tough, because anything people would hire the Byn for.. they could probably just take care of it themselves. Anyone that annoys the Byn, annoys a Warband of trained fighters.

So, honestly, what sort of things could come up that would need a trained Shit Soldier next to you, or sent out to do harm (that wouldn't turn into assembling the army)? Other than dangerous streets, I don't know, and any PC that "makes the streets dangerous" dies AWFUL quick.

I think a mercenary company fits in best when there are two combat powers of relatively equal strength. Strong enough to hurt each other and not get wiped out, but weak enough that they need to hire extra muscle for some of the more bigger military missions.

The problem right now is the the Byn is the only real military power in Allanak when virtually that is far from the case. The greatest threat you might face is a mekillot wandering too close to the city. There is no other military body of power waging an ongoing conflict to need the Byn, and so what they become is just a training place for combat character to go to before they go join another group. That is not what I would imagine a mercenary company to be, and far from it.

Bump up the violence and martial conflict between Noble Houses and groups within the city, and then a mercenary company who is neutral becomes way more feasible to be in existence. When there's a real tension between House Oash and House Borsail for example, the Byn might be hired by Oash to protect an asset one day, preventing the other from acting, and then the Byn might be hired another day to go protect Borsail's dinner party from Oash. Walking that fine balance is what brings in profits for a mercenary company that's neutral, and would be what really drives plots and helps bring another layer of planning in politics.

[Added] I'm of the opinion that if the Byn were present for the conflict between Montague and Capulet, Romeo and Juliet would not have become the tragedy that it is today. Why? Because the neutral Byn would be there to keep the bloodshed from getting out of hand, all the while lining their pockets with coins.

[Riev]

The issue is (using your specific scenario as an example)... why would Borsail and Oash hate each other? I don't mean specifically... I mean the only way they'd hate each other in such a way would be through staff intervention. A couple junior nobles being jerks... so be it. But if Sally Borsail sends out a goon squad to beat the hell out of Veronica Oash, I get the feeling Borsail's more senior nobles would start getting a bit angry.

Taking the virtual world is not only great, but required. Unfortunately, it also means a lot of things that COULD happen... won't. Because virtually why would <x> group let that happen?

[Semper]

The issue is (using your specific scenario as an example)... why would Borsail and Oash hate each other? I don't mean specifically... I mean the only way they'd hate each other in such a way would be through staff intervention. A couple junior nobles being jerks... so be it. But if Sally Borsail sends out a goon squad to beat the hell out of Veronica Oash, I get the feeling Borsail's more senior nobles would start getting a bit angry.

Taking the virtual world is not only great, but required. Unfortunately, it also means a lot of things that COULD happen... won't. Because virtually why would <x> group let that happen?

Hmm, I'm not sure how vulnerable the Allanaki Noble Houses are to falling, but I know in past history, Houses have fallen or been risen in Tier due to IG actions of PC Nobles. I think that kind of threat would be enough for a Borsail/Oash rivalry, if there are vulnerabilities that each House has. If Noble Houses are not infallible, then all sorts of conflict could arise, but I'm just making base assumptions here. You bring up a good point though, which is why -would- a Noble House want to leave the security of their Tier or power base, and is that a good thing for the game?

[Tetra]

The issue is (using your specific scenario as an example)... why would Borsail and Oash hate each other? I don't mean specifically... I mean the only way they'd hate each other in such a way would be through staff intervention. A couple junior nobles being jerks... so be it. But if Sally Borsail sends out a goon squad to beat the hell out of Veronica Oash, I get the feeling Borsail's more senior nobles would start getting a bit angry.

Taking the virtual world is not only great, but required. Unfortunately, it also means a lot of things that COULD happen... won't. Because virtually why would <x> group let that happen?

Oash employs magickers.  Borsail hates magickers.  That's a huge incentive for disdain right off the batt.

[not_really_mean]

I agree the crim code is completely stifling to pretty much any in city conflict with the real issue being that being insta killed by the guards is pretty much the only outcome for anything but a failed steal.  This leads to the culture discussed in other threads where no one respects nobles, and PCs are immune from consequences of anything they do short of 'kill Amos'. The solutions I would propose, which seem pretty easy code wise are:
1). NPC guards are crim code immune.  If your playing a character with the authority to control an NPC guard you've already been vetted by staff.  The notion that you can't be trusted to decide if your guard should react with an attack seems pretty unreasonable.  If you abuse it, easy solution is your fancy PC gets to walk around without a guard.  Soldiers should Not auto assist guards.  This means if the offender flees, they aren't fleeing into a insta death from guards.  They have the opportunity to turn tail. This should extend to PC guards as well with the stipulation that if you attack someone without a nobles protection, it's punishable by death.  Again, the 95% of the player base capable of handling this responsibility should also be capable of weeding out the 5% of idiots who can't.   Log PC attacks using weapons so they can be addressed ICly by staff.
2) NPC soldiers shouldn't get involved unless a weapon gets pulled out, someone uses magic or a noble/soldier/important person is involved. At that point they should react as they do now and murderfy the attacker.  If youre the idiot walking down commoners punching people in the face that seems like a great job for the PC militia players to handle.  Taking items off an unconscious PC is still stealing and should get you flagged if you fail. I see no reason in the world of "murder, betrayal and corruption" (tm) that some asshat walking down the street can't punch someone else in the face without too much trouble from the soldiers run by the elites of the world.  Or that smack-talky the longneck can't get some internal injuries for sharing his opinion.
3) PCs fighting without weapons should be able to take a person down to the same threshold "mercy" stops at.  Right now the brawl code is poorly implemented IMHO because the most a person can take is a couple points of damage.  There's no threat, no tension - these changes are meaningless without the teeth of real coded consequences behind them. 

What you'll end up with is a player base that can partially police itself in the direction they want to go, meaningful nobility/elites and significant PC tension/interaction without the fear of insta death cockblocking literally everything. 

We should also instate medium term stat loss for taking a beating below a threshold, but that's another topic.

[Saellyn]

You realize most peoples idea of walking down the street punching in the face is actually sneaking down the street stabbing people in the kidneys?

[not_really_mean]

You realize most peoples idea of walking down the street punching in the face is actually sneaking down the street stabbing people in the kidneys?

I don't understand what your trying to say here.  In my suggestion this person would get insta-gibbed by the guards the same way it is now because he'd be using a weapon.

[BadSkeelz]

I've seen enough successful assassinations (including of nobles and PC soldiers, in broad daylight on a busy city street) where the assassin escapes to know that the crimcode isn't COMPLETELY stifling. You probably just haven't yet been able to get good.

[not_really_mean]

I've seen enough successful assassinations (including of nobles and PC soldiers, in broad daylight on a busy city street) where the assassin escapes to know that the crimcode isn't COMPLETELY stifling. You probably just haven't yet been able to get good.

I know this is a new GBD handle but I've played the game for a long time and handed out more beeps than most players by a wide margin.  

The reason I'm saying it's completely stifling isn't because newbie X can't murder noble Amos with six months of game experience.  The reason I'm saying it's stifling is because newbie X can say/do whatever they want with no fear whatsoever of the consequences because it takes work, skill, knowledge and effort to really assassinate someone (as it should be) and there's no 'in between' option.  What I'm proposing is a middle ground where the nobility and upper class have a method to enforce their status on the spot, without staff intervention - not a PK fest.  It also allows for johnny commoner to be able to step up to jimmy commoner who's talking shit and give them a reason not to without having to fear the NPC crimcode blatantly obliterating them on the spot.

How many times have you seen some random player talking smack to a PC who *clearly* could obliterate them just because they know, codedly, there's nothing that PC can do other than emote?  That, in my opinion, is where a TON of these other problems discussed stem from.  PCs have gotten away from IC common sense because of crimcode restraints and all the discussion in the world won't curb it faster than the hard reality of the mantis head (or the fear of it).

Edit: a word or two; punctuation

[Semper]

I've seen enough successful assassinations (including of nobles and PC soldiers, in broad daylight on a busy city street) where the assassin escapes to know that the crimcode isn't COMPLETELY stifling. You probably just haven't yet been able to get good.

The issue isn't whether someone is able to be killing in the city or not, it's the fact that no matter what range of criminal activity is committed, the reaction by the NPC population is exactly the same. So a thief trying to steal a piece of bread from a child will get the exact same reaction as a hardened assassin killing a Noble, all the NPCs will be after that criminal throughout the entire city.

The crim-code isn't perfect, but it's just one area in the game where just a small change can have game-changing effects. I'm not saying you should get rid of it or that Allanak should become like the Rinth...but tweaking the code could allow more aggression throughout the city, and allow PCs (without the proper political/social support) to feel the desperation that people have when they need to look over their shoulder wherever they go.