Noble Power

[Desertman]

I wouldn't mind seeing nobles have the coded ability to "Crim Flag" someone, but nothing else.

They can't openly attack someone. They can't let their guards attack someone. They can't hold murder sessions in the street on a whim.

They can however look over at "Soldier A" and say, "This ragamuffin has offended me! Drag him to the jails at once!".

I like this idea, because 99 out of 100 times if the soldier was a PC soldier, they would comply immediately and do just that.

This might need to wait until after the crim code gets a new system in place so that soldier NPC's are less "instant death" and will only attempt to "arrest" instead of "ARRESTKILLDEAD"!

Offend a noble or otherwise displease one? He will have you drug off to jail and let the templarate deal with your stupidity. (Not instantly killed.)

[wizturbo]

I think some of the suggestions in this thread are swinging the pendulum too far.  In some situations, nobles aren't as powerful as they probably should be.  They're wealthy, influential people, but they aren't militia captains or members of the Templarate.  If you piss a noble off, you might not see the consequences of that immediately, but those consequences will come.

Honestly, I don't see a massive problem with this in-game.  Generally, nobles get respected as the documentation says they should.  The rare anarchists out there who don't behave that way don't tend to live long, or they're living as hunted men or women.

[MeTekillot]

Militia captains don't have anywhere near the social status of even a junior noble of the lowest ranked House, I don't think.

[Marauder Moe]

Actually I think militia captain is about the point where a common soldier might, essentially, be more important than a junior noble.

It's less about his own merit, though, than the fact that he probably reports personally to a Red-robe on a regular basis, or at least the most senior of Blue.

[wizturbo]

Militia captains don't have anywhere near the social status of even a junior noble of the lowest ranked House, I don't think.

Of course not, wasn't implying a militia captain was higher up the social ladder, only their job affords them police powers where a noble's does not.

Who is more powerful, a local congressman or a Police Sergeant?   I think we'd all agree the Congressman is substantially more powerful.  However, put both of these people in a bar somewhere, and some drunken lout comes up and causes a disturbance.  The Sergeant can arrest the drunk on the spot.  The Congressman could not.  

Of course, if the Congressman wanted the man arrested, I'd be willing to wager hefty odds that the Sergeant would make the arrest.  Either because the Sergeant wants to kiss up to someone as powerful as the Congressman, or because if the Congressman wanted they could make a few calls and probably get that Sergeant fired, fined, or at least in really deep shit with their superiors.

Of course modern society isn't exactly Zalanthas...but the same essential principles are at play in my opinion.

[MeTekillot]

I mean, in Zalanthas, that Senator could walk up and literally murder that lout with absolutely no consequence. Or have one of their people do it. Virtually, anyway.

[wizturbo]

Actually I think militia captain is about the point where a common soldier might, essentially, be more important than a junior noble.

It's less about his own merit, though, than the fact that he probably reports personally to a Red-robe on a regular basis, or at least the most senior of Blue.

More important in different ways.  Command more raw power...probably, yes.  Politically speaking though, they're not on the same level.  

[Marauder Moe]

Politically speaking, a captain is probably higher.

[Patuk]

wut

[Armaddict]

http://old.armageddon.org/general/ranktable.html

The documented way of it.  Not sure what's being shown in game.

Note that some of the tiers have changed.

[Marauder Moe]

A captain commands an order of magnitude more people than a junior noble.

A captain probably commands a lot more money than a junior noble.

If a captain tells a soldier to arrest someone, there's far less likely to be any hesitation, let alone disobedience.

If a captain asks for more money or for laws to be changed, he's probably given more serious consideration than a junior noble.

There are probably fewer militia captains than junior nobles.

Captain is above the glass ceiling.

Junior noble is below it.


PRE-EDIT:

Yeah, I know about that table.  It does say "Social Rankings" rather than political/power rankings.  And, indeed, even a captain needs to bow to a junior noble and probably should be generally polite to them.

It's a great game we play, isn't it?  Where things such as rank and power are fluid and subtle enough that simple 2D tables can't adequately express them.

[Is Friday]

Go play a Captain Moe, I'd love to roll a junior noble and crush you.

[wizturbo]

Politically speaking, a captain is probably higher.

In a political death match, Captains on average would lose.  They're not trained or equipped for politics.  They're soldiers.  They can't even read and write.  Your average noble, whose born and bred as a political creature could dance circles around someone like that.

Politics is a devious game, and not having a signet ring on your finger means you're dealt half as many cards as those who do.

Honestly, I think the only commoner's who could challenge a junior noble in politics are Greater Merchant House members, or high ranking servants of a noble House that basically wield the authority of a Senior Noble by proxy.

[aeglaeca]

I don't really know about that. Personal charisma counts for a lot, especially when it comes with the support of a well-trained military unit behind said captain. Military coups are totally a thing for a reason, and I'd expect them to be moreso in a tok-eat-tok world like Zalanthas. In addition, I would expect that one doesn't get appointed to anything above the current standard sergeant rank without some political savvy.

[Marauder Moe]

Indeed, but more importantly you don't need to be a political genius when your can get the ear of a Red.

[MeTekillot]

Why would they jump over a Blue to a Red?

[Saellyn]

They wouldn't, they would go through the blue to try to get a meeting with the red if the blue couldn't solve the problem.

[Marauder Moe]

I'm not actually sure which a captain reports to, but even if it's a Blue, it'd be a very important one who can tell the captain "OK, if this noble is mucking with the legion, let's go talk to Papa Red."

[MeTekillot]

Most Blues can request an audience with their Red, can't they? I mean, that's their direct superior isn't it?

[Saellyn]

Nobles also aren't supposed to muck with the legion, I don't think. A noble mucking with the legion is -basically- mucking with the Templarate, and let's be frank, there is no noble who has the rank or political clout to touch a Black Robe if they muck too much.

[Is Friday]

I don't really know about that. Personal charisma counts for a lot, especially when it comes with the support of a well-trained military unit behind said captain. Military coups are totally a thing for a reason, and I'd expect them to be moreso in a tok-eat-tok world like Zalanthas. In addition, I would expect that one doesn't get appointed to anything above the current standard sergeant rank without some political savvy.

In despotisms with sorceror kings, military coups aren't really feasible given IC reasons.

[MeTekillot]

Except for Valusaurus, but it was less a coup and more of a "taking my ball and starting my own" sort of thing.

[Marauder Moe]

Most Blues can request an audience with their Red, can't they? I mean, that's their direct superior isn't it?

I actually don't think they can, even though indeed they're direct superiors.

[Saellyn]

Your military coup would involve a single black robe snapping his finger and vaporizing not only the leader of the coup, but everyone involved, and their families. Generations of lineage would be ended in a heartbeat.

So, to prevent that, people don't coup that far up the chain.

[wizturbo]

In addition, I would expect that one doesn't get appointed to anything above the current standard sergeant rank without some political savvy.

There is a world of difference between the political chops of a Sergeant and someone whose grown up in a noble family and been trained from birth to live as a political creature.  Go take an illiterate police Sergeant from some third world country and drop them into Washington DC to play politics...  See how quickly they survive.