Start all skills at low journeyman

[nauta]

Oh, I think I was confused, you guys mean that you'd see what skills you have but not what level you are at?  That's probably fine for newbies.  I thought you'd not even see what skills you had, which would be like: woah, for pretty obvious reasons.  (You wouldn't know what HELP to type to even begin.)

[Armaddict]

Oh, I think I was confused, you guys mean that you'd see what skills you have but not what level you are at?  That's probably fine for newbies.  I thought you'd not even see what skills you had, which would be like: woah, for pretty obvious reasons.  (You wouldn't know what HELP to type to even begin.)

Erm.  I guess it's hard for me to remember that this particular change happened long enough ago that some people never saw 'how it was'.  Previously, you'd still have a skills list that showed what you have, but the levels themselves were hidden from you.  You didn't know how good you were at it.  They still improved and were exactly the same as today, you just weren't told what level you were at.

I'm actually in agreement that this way is gentler on newbies, because it was something that newbies generally asked about when they started. 'Why can't I tell how good I am?'.  But generally, within a short amount of time, they got in the swing of things.  This change made the 'holy crap learning curve' of Arm much gentler.  I'm focusing on the much more subtle differences in play between the two, over time, not asserting a strong opinion of 'THIS CHANGE WAS A BAD IDEA'.  Us old-timers cling to the things that first brought us here...think of my posts here as a sort of attempt to appreciate the newer, remodeled way of thinking, with an undertone of 'Are we suuuuuure this is better?' because I don't see it yet.

[RogueGunslinger]

 

TL/DR I'm not pushing to put things back, but I am trying to get a firmer understanding of why seeing skills was such a benefit, or not seeing them such a detriment to a roleplaying game.  In my head as it is, the only true benefit I see out of it is that it 'streamlines' skill progression so that you know when you've improved so that you can immediately jump up to the next step, rather than stumble on the insight that you've improved that much.  But in the vision of the game, stumbling on it makes a more fluid roleplaying experience for me, and something that used to set apart 'Arm roleplay' from 'tabletop character sheet roleplay'.

My whole point is that it didn't change the way you got insight about where your character stands or how much they improved, because that's still done in the same way by comparing yourself to others.  It's just there to give people, like Narf said, a sense of accomplishment, more so than a sense of how good they are at something. It has very little to do with "jumping to the next step." As there are no steps in the progression, but more of a linear advancement.

I guess my question for you is; What other benefits do you think there were to not seeing skill levels? I don't find your "more fluid roleplaying experience" argument very compelling due to the fact that showing them doesn't take away from how you should be determining where you stand.

One I just thought of that helps me see where you're coming from is that seeing the levels lends to the mentality that "I've mastered my skills, no need to practice them anymore." which is not something that someone would do realistically. They would keep honing, practicing, simply to stay where they are, and that's much more likely to happen if we don't know we've reached a ceiling.

So I guess I'm a bit torn on the issue myself now. Never really thought about it much until now.

[bardlyone]

I just have a hard time wrapping my head around why, in a roleplaying game as hardcore as this one, we'd prefer the one that gives you a hint of a scale.

I would guess that, at the very least, in part, because (per the other thread going) it cuts down on staff work.

How?

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Mastercrafting

"The rules are:

    When you type 'skills', the craft skill must show (master).
    All mastercrafts should be submitted through the request tool.
    You can submit one entry per month, no matter how many mastercraft-ranked skills you have. "

I'm guessing that before you were able to see your skill levels, there was a lot of guesswork involved in knowing what you could and could not mastercraft and time wasted hashing that out. No idea when it comes to anything else, but that does seem pertinent.

[Armaddict]

I guess my question for you is; What other benefits do you think there were to not seeing skill levels? I don't find your "more fluid roleplaying experience" argument very compelling due to the fact that showing them doesn't take away from how you should be determining where you stand.

Harder question than it seems, because I don't think this is a game-breaker by any means.  I think the impacts are, by and large, incredibly subtle, and so I'm not really invested in things being one way or the other.  Like I said, I just 'cling' to the old way, because it made sense to me and directed play in a way that kept you, the player, a little bit in the dark as far as the 'grand scheme' of your skills.
My opinions, completely unverifiable, but for your input:
-More people are centered around getting to a certain, now marked, level of improvement before getting involved in certain endeavors.  Before, you had to make an educated guess.  Now, you can tell immediately when you've hit a level of 'I think I'm better at this than the goal requires, I'm good'.
-A more prevalent understanding of 'keep doing this to get better'.  Helpful in some ways, but in other ways, it cuts down on in-game movement.  Without a gauge, you might start to feel stagnant, like you're not improving, and change things up, while as now you have verifiable proof of improvement even if it's not exactly easily
 seen through IC course.  I.e. 'I'm winning all my training bouts, but I still got a skill bump to parry yesterday' whereas before, it would lead to characters sometimes switching careers or trainers or etc.  That's a weak example, just off the top of my head, so you will poke holes in that, but try to focus on the underlying idea.
-'Arbitrary' ic decisions.  A player can now decide 'I won't do this until this skill is at this level'.  Example:  Hide.  Before, you had to guess based off of less risky risk-taking when you were stealthy enough to brave consistently entering taverns, -particularly- before hide was something that stuck with you from room to room.  Now,   people will purposely avoid the risk until that skill level lets them know it's okay, when they suddenly decide.
-PC to PC comparison:  "I'm one of the best in the known, I'm pretty sure" versus "I'm pretty good, but have only really fought against these people so I'm not really sure."  The former gives you confidence, the latter makes risks, which results in more excitement, in my opinion.

Things of that nature.  VERY SUBTLE things, that are not even -particularly- troubling, even, but which make me think I favor the older system because that broad blanket of uncertainty felt by most parties.  As noted, I can type brief skills, but that doesn't affect those things, because it's not something everyone is subject to.  I'm not truly invested, again...the only reason I'm in this thread is because I made the off-handed assertion that people wanting to not have a novice level or apprentice level is a result of that scale being visible in the first place.  There was rarely, if ever, discussion that I recall in the old system of 'Can we start off not failing skills?' aside from contact and crafting.  It was a flimsy, and as I said, somewhat snarky comment, but it's the only reason I'm here talking about it at all.  Just...no one get heated about what I'm saying, because it's totally not worth it, I just went down this path of 'Hmm, I wonder if the change is actually improving things and accomplishing the goal that led to the change in the first place.'  It's a goal that I don't even really know, to be honest.

Edited to add:
For a personal example of the effect...
I once had an elven burglar in Allanak.  He occasionally got into alley fights, but, as would be surmised, didn't fare well as a newbie burglar.  He struck a deal with Gold of the Tor Scorpions...free mounts in exchange for training.  So I started stealing tickets, bringing them to him, and we'd roleplay for about a half and hour, then he'd teach me.  I got two or three sessions, and knew he was a badass, so I thought I was a badass.  As I should have, I'd received instruction from one of the best known fighters in the known.  If I could -see- my skills at that point, I'd know I wasn't actually -that- big of a deal.  Instead, I got into another fight, but was far less careful due to the overconfidence.  I nearly died.  The mugger was successful, and got all my stuff.  That mugger doesn't get that opportunity to take my overconfidence if I can see the lessons didn't have the large effect I thought.  Those are the kind of...small differences I'm talking about.

[Armaddict]

I just have a hard time wrapping my head around why, in a roleplaying game as hardcore as this one, we'd prefer the one that gives you a hint of a scale.

I would guess that, at the very least, in part, because (per the other thread going) it cuts down on staff work.

How?

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Mastercrafting

"The rules are:

    When you type 'skills', the craft skill must show (master).
    All mastercrafts should be submitted through the request tool.
    You can submit one entry per month, no matter how many mastercraft-ranked skills you have. "

I'm guessing that before you were able to see your skill levels, there was a lot of guesswork involved in knowing what you could and could not mastercraft and time wasted hashing that out. No idea when it comes to anything else, but that does seem pertinent.

Very true, particularly since those came in sequence.  I.e. Mastercrafts used to be called custom orders, and used to be handled by merchant houses, not individual crafters.  When that change came, it probably resulted in an ONSLAUGHT. XD

[AdamBlue]

I'd like to see a system where characters who enter the world at an older age get automatic modest bumps to their class skills, to represent a lifetime of effort.

I always thought it was silly in these games where playing a 30 year old combat vet always requires making excuses for his lack of combat ability as compared to a 14 year old who's been grinding.

I think it would be cool to see this, but balanced fairly.

For example, someone who enters in at 30 as a human gets journeyman in all of his combat skills, but suffers the penalties of aging by having a slightly lower chance of stat rolls in physical attributes, while a younger character can have higher stats as they start which may change to either better or worse over time, but also start with lower skills. That way you can roll in as a moderately-skilled codger who is decent but doesn't have much room for improvement, or a fresh start with someone who has WORLDS of improvement, even moreso then the old codger. It'd give people a chance to play 'flash' characters. If someone wants to make a character that is for a specific purpose, then they can carry out that specific purpose immediately, then die gruesomely and spectacularly!

[Armaddict]

but suffers the penalties of aging by having a slightly lower chance of stat rolls in physical attributes, while a younger character can have higher stats as they start which may change to either better or worse over time, but also start with lower skills.

Starting age already influences your stat roll.  Most people choose ages at around the same level, so it's subtle, but if you try some other ages you will generally see things very different.

Unless this has changed, which is very possible.  Rolls, as a whole, have just gotten -way- better than you used to get, in my experience, so I of course make the assumption some tweaks were made at some point.

[bardlyone]

I just have a hard time wrapping my head around why, in a roleplaying game as hardcore as this one, we'd prefer the one that gives you a hint of a scale.

I would guess that, at the very least, in part, because (per the other thread going) it cuts down on staff work.

How?

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Mastercrafting

"The rules are:

   When you type 'skills', the craft skill must show (master).
   All mastercrafts should be submitted through the request tool.
   You can submit one entry per month, no matter how many mastercraft-ranked skills you have. "

I'm guessing that before you were able to see your skill levels, there was a lot of guesswork involved in knowing what you could and could not mastercraft and time wasted hashing that out. No idea when it comes to anything else, but that does seem pertinent.

Very true, particularly since those came in sequence.  I.e. Mastercrafts used to be called custom orders, and used to be handled by merchant houses, not individual crafters.  When that change came, it probably resulted in an ONSLAUGHT. XD

Not according to ask the staff, six years ago, unless you could see skill levels in 2009? http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,36124.0.html I can only imagine it made it less work to be able to see when you could do them, so you weren't even asking until you knew you could attempt it. This could, of course, be wrong. The quote here is "Master Crafted items can be made by any PC deemed a Master Crafter in that specific skill set, you can also ask your clan staff if your skill level in a particular field is what would be deemed Master Crafter Level." I looked up a bunch about mastercrafting when I found out it meant you could make new items.

[Quell]

but suffers the penalties of aging by having a slightly lower chance of stat rolls in physical attributes, while a younger character can have higher stats as they start which may change to either better or worse over time, but also start with lower skills.

Unless this has changed, which is very possible.  Rolls, as a whole, have just gotten -way- better than you used to get, in my experience, so I of course make the assumption some tweaks were made at some point.

I imagine rolls got a lot better when they instituted reroll and reroll return I don't think there's been any other changes.

[Cavaticus]

I always thought it was silly in these games where playing a 30 year old combat vet always requires making excuses for his lack of combat ability as compared to a 14 year old who's been grinding.

CGP lets you do this. If you want to play a combat vet, special app a character who has the skill bumps to represent that. Even the baseline 3CGP that a 0-karma player has is enough to give a pretty respectable starting boost to a PC. If you don't have the spec app slot, then you can't play that character.

If you were sitting down to roll up some D&D characters for a tabletop game, you wouldn't tell the DM, "I want my guy to be a real hardass, so I should start off several levels higher than the rest of the party." Sometimes, character creation happens in the framework of the story that's being told rather than, necessarily, the story you'd most like to be telling.

[Saellyn]

Stat rolls didn't necessarily get better with the reroll system...

Sometimes you get fucked either way. Just like in game!


Also yeah, if you want bombass skills, extended app - skill bump and drop some CGP.

[Centurion]

When you hit master I think people should still be trying to learn, but the difference now is you dont need to be failing to do it. You can actually focuse on a more believable system of teaching and learning through RP, but until then you just have to go through the slow, hard grind, which is especially boring for warriors.

Your an independant leather worker who has made it to master in skill. That's fine, but I'm sure there's still plenty of secrets you could RP learning, or chase from the Kuraci or Salarri to further improve your talent. I wonder if anyone has made a bad first custom item?

More on topic. I think the system how it is. Being able to see roughly how good you are without comparing to other people makes sense. I know my capabilities.

[Saellyn]

I once made a custom item that was a prototype of another custom item I was working on. It was bad.