Customizing long lived characters

[Dresan]

This idea was inspired by the life-sworn idea.

A player with a character's four months or older can use one of their three yearly special applications to do one of the following increase skills based on karma only (restrictions still apply), add ONE additional skill at sub-guild levels or extended sub-guild level (if they have the karma), or increase one stat of their choice. Players should only be allowed to modify the same character once every six months.

Being able to add one skill will allow older characters to take on new hobbies, or adapt to a change in their lifestyle. The stat boost will allow some players to work out or just keep up with the aging in some cases. The ability to get stat boosts for living characters will mean the focus will on RP, so someone playing a medic in certain clans can actually become skilled without having to search for bandage.

[KankWhisperer]

This idea was inspired by the life-sworn idea.

A player with a character's four months or older can use one of their three yearly special applications to do one of the following increase skills based on karma only (restrictions still apply), add ONE additional skill at sub-guild levels or extended sub-guild level (if they have the karma), or increase one stat of their choice. Players should only be allowed to modify the same character once every six months.

Being able to add one skill will allow older characters to take on new hobbies, or adapt to a change in their lifestyle. The stat boost will allow some players to work out or just keep up with the aging in some cases. The ability to get stat boosts for living characters will mean the focus will on RP, so someone playing a medic in certain clans can actually become skilled without having to search for bandage.

I think karma shouldn't be involved, nor stat boosts.

[Nyr]

Two things here. 

1:  Four months is long-lived?

2:  At this time, this is very unlikely to happen for people solely because they've played a character for a length of time and done nothing else except stay alive.

After the Legions were revamped they were set up with several things to make the type of role more appealing, eventually as something we could roll out to other clans.  While this has not been completed yet, there were rules to the process that was set up.  First, PCs were given options of promotional tracks--you could remain a private, but there were grades of rank for private, each corresponding to a slight increase in pay and perhaps other perks such as discounts or chits or the like (this was a pilot, so it is still in progress and may see other changes as other clans adopt their own strategies).  Second, lifeswearing was not required for just being a meat and potatoes soldier.  You could sign up for a contract (minimum 4 years), then leave after that.  Or just keep doing stints like that in the organization, if you'd like.  Third, there was compensation for lifeswearing beyond that rank--greater pay, other perks, and the potential to be either groomed for leadership or head down a track of specialization.  Fourth, PCs were given the assurance that yes, after you've done your time as a lifesworn soldier for the Legion, you could be dismissed and pursue something else. 

The track of specialization is of note because it is intended to mean virtual and solo-RP training towards a specific end, or at least, that is what I hoped.  You give something to the organization (the best years of your PC's life) and in return, the organization gives back (training, greater compensation, other perks).  Additional (and likely, slow) bumps to skills would be a reasonable possibility to reflect this specialized training, provided the PC is putting in the effort of roleplaying and playing actively.  Adding skills is also not necessarily out of the question.  Stat boosts we rarely (if ever) do anymore, so I wouldn't expect that sort of change.  After seeing this thread though I will start up a discussion with staff to review how this went with the Legions from a staffing perspective and see how other clans could benefit from structural review.

This is all aimed in a direction of making clanned play something that does provide benefits that are noticeable IC to compensate for the restrictions of clanned play. 

[Patuk]

Armageddon's permadeath is one of its greatest features, and it works because there is a certain plateau to how much you can do. Even if you're a templar with fifteen gemmers at your disposal and ten loyal aod PC's, you're never quite untouchable, and people who started playing after you did can always come at least within a reasonable distance of 'catching up.'

Add a measure like this and I see Arm becoming dominated by long-lived people even more than it is. Besides, the amount of skills any one character can gather is enormous already. Add more and I'm not sure if people will ever even want to interact anymore.

[WanderingOoze]

people who started playing after you did can always come at least within a reasonable distance of 'catching up.'

^^^Murdering all the long-lived Pc's has always been my goal, And I would be quite
disappointed about any change that would make this even harder!!

[Desertman]

I don't see a problem with it so long as the "perks" you get from being in those clans aren't just a result of staying alive. You should actually have to accomplish things that provide measurable and material gains or results that show your worth and determination before you get any of this.

It is infinitely harder to stay alive and arguably requires A LOT more skill, adaptation, and learning as you go to not die if you are in independent.

I would argue that living a very long time as an active independent should afford you many more perks and skills to reflect the fact you have obviously had to adapt, evolve, and scramble to stay alive in your current role. Sure you don't have teachers or VNPC's "showing you how to do things", but, I'm fairly certain a lot of people have learned a lot of things by trial and error throughout the years without someone teaching it to them first. In Zalanthas, you evolve and learn on your own, or you don't make it on your own. If you are clanned, you can be a useless asshat who has never really learned how to do anything worth a damn and live a long time.

As a PC in a clan, you very well could just walk around, eat your rations, never actually do very much to earn your place other than stay alive...and then there you are.

I've seen so many clanned PC's promoted to leadership positions over the years just because there was a lack of better options because everyone else was dead and this guy/girl never did anything to get themselves killed...and continued to do absolutely nothing worth mentioning once they were promoted to leadership.

I don't want to see those people getting perks for simply being so boring and lackluster that they managed to eat rations and not die while being codedly in a clan.

I'm sure staff has thought of this and made the proper adjustments to account for it, I'm just mentioning it.

[Nyr]

I don't see a problem with it so long as the "perks" you get from being in those clans aren't just a result of staying alive. You should actually have to accomplish things that provide measurable and material gains or results that show your worth and determination before you get any of this.

this is very unlikely to happen for people solely because they've played a character for a length of time and done nothing else except stay alive.

[Dresan]

lol. Well four months would be long lived for me.


I can count on one hand how many character I've had that have past that marker. However the reason I said four months, is that in a year long period people get three special applications. If they were to re-roll every four months, their character could start off with an extended sub-guild and/or skill boosts depending on their karma every time. The other reason is that personally when those few times I have had long lived characters...okay fine, when I've had character that have lived longer than 6 months, you look at other people being able to do cool things you can and I can't talk about anyone else but I get tempted to roll something new just to try out what they are doing. I will admit, maybe its just me. Also, while I know this game has been going on more than 20 years now, and people have dedicated years to playing, or have played characters for four years or more, nut still four months in this age of instant gratification is still a decent amount of time of a person's life to dedicate to something.

But that doesn't really matter I suppose, it is just a personal opinion, what does matter is that I do love what I'm hearing about the legions and will definitely be more than tempted to play a solider again in the near future. I also agree that a character who does nothing but live a long time should probably not be achieving certain perks as long as the system is fair. I feel the current system of special apping for extended-sub-guild is pretty fair to vets and newbies alike for example and straight forward.   Kudos for putting in the effort to make those changes.  Thank you for your time.

Edited: so it makes slightly more sense.

[Rokal]

lol. Well four months would be long lived for me.


I can count on one hand how many character I've had that have past that marker. However the reason I said four months, is that in a year long period people get three special applications. If they were to re-roll every four months, their character could start off with an extended sub-guild and/or skill boosts depending on their karma every time. The other reason is that personally when those few times I have had long lived characters...okay fine, when I've had character that have lived longer than 6 months, you look at other people being able to do cool things you can and I can't talk about anyone else but I get tempted to roll something new just to try out what they are doing. I will admit, maybe its just me. Also, while I know this game has been going on more than 20 years now, and people have dedicated years to playing, or have played characters for four years or more, four months in this age of instant gratification is still a decent amount of time of a persons life to dedicate to something.

But that doesn't really matter I suppose, what does matter is that I do love what I'm hearing about the legions and will definitely be more than tempted to play a solider again in the near future. I also agree that a character who does nothing but live a long time should probably not be achieving certain perks as long as the system is fair. I feel the current system of special apping for extended-sub-guild is pretty fair to vets and newbies alike for example and straight forward.  Something I didn't think I would have said before, so Kudos for putting in the effort to make those changes.  Thank you for your time.

As someone whos basically on their first character, and at the ~6 month mark almost, I can agree with a lot of this about seeing other characters and what they can do. I'm a noob whos only seen one main guild and one sub guild! Honestly, I created my first character expecting them to die in less then a week!

I intend to post a big first 'character' review when this characters story is at an end, or if it takes too long, write one up (Nothing IC, more my first impressions of the game, what i like, all that, what I think could be changed)

[nauta]

As someone whos basically on their first character, and at the ~6 month mark almost, I can agree with a lot of this about seeing other characters and what they can do. I'm a noob whos only seen one main guild and one sub guild! Honestly, I created my first character expecting them to die in less then a week!

I intend to post a big first 'character' review when this characters story is at an end, or if it takes too long, write one up (Nothing IC, more my first impressions of the game, what i like, all that, what I think could be changed)

Yes, please do!

[KankWhisperer]

If the character does nothing but eat rations, then their skills aren't going to matter anyway.

Really I would rather have an automated system rather than having to beg staff. Staff are people. They have different amounts of time for your clan, they have different interpretations, and they may just not like you personally. I'd rather have everyone treated relatively equally so there's not any sense of favoritism.


Right or wrong, I already feel like the Legions benefitted from favoritism if they have this system, because I think its because Nyr was up north at the time they got it.

[Marauder Moe]

I don't think it's favoritism that a particular system was implemented for just one clan/area before rolling it out to the entire game.

IIRC, Allanak got both apartments and warehouses first.  I think Allanaki clans got automated payroll NPCs first too.

[Down Under]

As with any experiment, you try it in one controlled environment, see if it works, and then try it in other environments. I can see how this system would work in the Legions, and maybe not universally in every other clan (or at least not in the same lateral promotion sense). It'll probably have to be hand-tailored to each clan, and that takes time and patience on our part.

I do think a nice place to start would be the Greater Merchant Houses -- The more appeal there is to play in a GMH clan rather than be a start-up company the better. I do think Indie Clans have a place in ArmageddonMUD, but I don't think every Amos, Malik, and Tressindra should be trying to carve their own niche in the markets.

I'd particularly like to see perks/benefits for family members and agents, and lateral promotions there.

[Harmless]

I always like the IC justification behind such changes to PC concepts moreso than a "system" of allowing such changes no matter what.. basically, I agree with Nyr's responses. Lengths of time are all relative, and how that time is spent is what matters most to me.

The lifesworn idea made a lot of sense to me because there is a huge, virtual clan backing the PC, but as it is now there are only a few actual benefits of this -- IC prestige, and a few coded perks that people banter back and fourth about the value of constantly. So, having a "system" there makes sense, but only because it has such a strong IC grounding first, mostly that becoming lifesworn is in itself a process and has some drawbacks to "balance" out that kind of dedication.

[Delirium]

As with any experiment, you try it in one controlled environment, see if it works, and then try it in other environments. I can see how this system would work in the Legions, and maybe not universally in every other clan (or at least not in the same lateral promotion sense). It'll probably have to be hand-tailored to each clan, and that takes time and patience on our part.

I do think a nice place to start would be the Greater Merchant Houses -- The more appeal there is to play in a GMH clan rather than be a start-up company the better. I do think Indie Clans have a place in ArmageddonMUD, but I don't think every Amos, Malik, and Tressindra should be trying to carve their own niche in the markets.

I'd particularly like to see perks/benefits for family members and agents, and lateral promotions there.

Agreed about the experiment and rollout, disagree about indie clans.

I enjoy indie clans and I think the struggles against crazy odds which they present are a large part of what is attractive about them. Merchant Houses (and other clans) have their own unique conflicts and struggles, sure, but for the most part, they are established, they have made it, and they have been peopled with heros and champions whose boots are tough to fill. When you create your own clan, you are striking new ground, and hoping to claim a name for yourself that no one has had.

I don't think long-lived characters need additional skills, specifically, but some flexibility in being able to learn new skills in place of old ones, or to somehow put your mark on an area would be nice. One part of playing someone incredibly long-lived is that there's an inevitable stagnation that sets in until and unless you find a way to shake things up. That stagnation largely sets in because often you realize that there's not much you can really DO once you've made it in your specific niche. You've slain the monster, won the woman, got the crown... now you're just sitting there, going through the daily motions. That's usually where the video game would end. Thus the growing bored and retiring, or the going out and finding a new niche by shaking things up and going in a different direction. Being able to progress beyond that "win point" instead of the "shakeup or retire" options would be nice.

Being able to create a new clan from scratch is a great way for that long-lived character to try and make that mark, and put off the day when their player feels they've reached the end of what they can do with their character's story. Granted, I wish it was less limited; I'd like to see tribal clans and antagonistic clans as well. But it's a start.

On the flip side, I do think clans need more perks. They should have significant benefits which reflect that they are top dog in a dog eat dog world.

Some things that matter to players are a) skills b) loot and c) achievement. Clans offer option B and C to some extent, but often at the expense of option A and arguably less of option C.

So, make option A more available. Allow players to raise their skills in clans, without having to go out and get nommed on tarantula and stilt lizards.

Create obstacle courses for sneaking, climbing, and hiding, spaces to practice mass combat and various ambush tactics, archery ranges and dummies for combat, kicking, bashing, and backstabbing, all available only to those who have signed on for a contract of service for X years, and I guarantee you clans will be the next hottest thing besides Suk-Krath.

[Nyr]

Really I would rather have an automated system rather than having to beg staff. Staff are people. They have different amounts of time for your clan, they have different interpretations, and they may just not like you personally.

We'd prefer the lack of an automated system for the same reasons.  Players are people.  They have different amounts of time for playing the game, they have different interpretations of good roleplay, and they may just be skating by and not actually doing anything to merit specialization training.  Better to leave it up to a staff member to assess.

I'd rather have everyone treated relatively equally so there's not any sense of favoritism.

I'm relatively sure that no one has actually pursued that specialization training in the Legions.  We also strive to make sure there's no sense of favoritism.  "They got to try this out before me" isn't necessarily favoritism, but I'll point that out more below.  It's a byproduct of how a game works when staffed by different teams.

Right or wrong, I already feel like the Legions benefitted from favoritism if they have this system, because I think its because Nyr was up north at the time they got it.

At least for now, we're sticking to a model in which staff members provide the services of staffing the game to the clans they are in charge of--so administrators would administrate their own clans, and storytellers would tell stories for their own clans.  Part of that storytelling means that some clans may well be more active in terms of active plots.  Part of that administration may mean that things get experimented on because they are being changed anyway, and then things are monitored to see how it works out. 

This was one of those cases.  Like others have mentioned, new things do start somewhere.  Depending on what it is, it might be rolled out across the entire game.  Take the code for the moons.  Once it was done, it was rolled out; every player saw the benefit immediately.  It took a lot of code effort up front, but virtually no player effort or testing needed.  You might also consider the player clan progression stuff.  This was announced, then documented and implemented a month or so later for all players.  Some things are rolled out in a more piecemeal pattern because they need iterative work.  Take apartments:  they're being revamped, but it is not a major priority; it requires building work.  As another complex gets done, it gets dropped in.  (Nearly all of them have been in Allanak.)  Or maybe take the clan autopayment system--initially it was in a few clans, then it got rolled out across the board by all staff because it was needed.  It took a few weeks. 

In this particular case, there was a set of ideas, a proposal, review on the staff side of things, then tentative implementation in one clan (because it was changing something that has never been changed).  We weren't really sure if any of it would work or see positive feedback from staff/players.  We'll review that and see how it might work for other clans.  Thanks for bringing it up as you did earlier!

[Rathustra]

Legions get special training?

[Riev]

I'm just happy someone is finally looking into Chits. I had a templar that REALLY wanted the chit system to work (to the point where I actually had to get the NPC working again just to get them) and had things like "<x> chits and I'll buy you your own special mount" or "If you turn in a hundred chits at one time, I'll give you a huge coin bonus".


I like that it could be for something else. Chits for promotions, or special training, or the like. Too bad its like three years later, and requires a lot of staff attention to do it =\

[bcw81]

Legions get special training?

rath plz

[Large Hero]

How is the success of the Legion specialization program going to be reviewed if nobody actually pursued it?

[Nyr]

How is the success of the Legion specialization program going to be reviewed if nobody actually pursued it?

We have 7 ranks in the Tuluki templarate prior to the rank of High Templar. 

The existence of ranks that PCs have not attained (and a system that PCs have not used) does not necessitate that the system is flawed or cannot be expanded to other clans as appropriate/when feasible.  Ultimately, that is what we'll have to review:  does this work structurally?  Are we okay with this being available to any/all clans?

[Riev]

So is this less about the coded skill pool, like the other thread, and more about "There isn't just Recruit>Private>Corporal>Sergeant>Pre-Storage>Storage" that most clans have? Like... a more lateral move of "Senior Private" or "Sergeant-in-charge-of-ass-kickings"?

[Nyr]

So is this less about the coded skill pool, like the other thread, and more about "There isn't just Recruit>Private>Corporal>Sergeant>Pre-Storage>Storage" that most clans have? Like... a more lateral move of "Senior Private" or "Sergeant-in-charge-of-ass-kickings"?

Not quite.

There are 7 ranks in the Tuluki Templarate now prior to the rank of High Templar.  These ranks exist as vertical movement AND are coupled with skill progression.  No Templar PC has made it to the higher echelons of PC-attainable rank under that system.  However, we would not use that as grounds for saying that the system is flawed or unable to be used or applied elsewhere.

The same goes for skill specialization within a clan for long-lived, lifesworn roles.  This was developed as something that would start occurring AT a certain rank, past lifesworn stage, assuming several other variables too (good roleplayer, involving oneself in the clan, active, etc).  As mentioned in the announcement for the Legions, there was an introduction of additional categories of rank for Private, Corporal, and Sergeant.  Let's say there are 6 non-leadership ranks, in a mix of vertical/lateral moves.  Skill specialization and training was only ever implied at rank 5.

[Iiyola]

Yeah but what aboot our dear Allanak?

[Malken]

Yeah but what aboot our dear Allanak?

You have Talia.

[Iiyola]

Point.

[Aruven]

Legions get special training?

[Elocin]

Hope this isn't too far off topic, but I always thought it would be neat to have some sort of mentoring program that takes "teach" to a new level. I've been seeing a lot of threads for players looking for things to do with their PC's after surviving for awhile. This isn't a free chance for players to get any skills they want, but it would offer new hobbies for them to pick up once they find a player deemed a Master. Said Master/Mentor must be applied for, or even maybe an event could be formed around claiming the title. This would add something IC that could be fun. Competitions where master chefs have a cook off, or master swordsmen battle it out for the title. This could be regional, northern and southern. I'm just rambling now so I'll rattle off some things to sort of clarify. Go ahead and pick it apart 

Requirements for becoming a Master:

Through competition earned or application. Player must by code also be a master of said craft. Masters can be challenged too for the right. It's a prestigious title to have.

Requirements for apprenticeship:

- A contract must be entered with a master/mentor - Said PC must be an expert in the ability.
- A request must be submitted via the request tool stating intentions, goals, and the likes which the apprentice want to accomplish.
- RP logs must be submitted as proof of work towards the goal.

[wizturbo]

I'd just rather see "Teach" become a skill.  Do it enough, and you'll be able to teach people much more than you can currently, making a highly skilled person who can also teach a valuable asset for anyone trying to learn.

[Kol]

I'd just rather see "Teach" become a skill.  Do it enough, and you'll be able to teach people much more than you can currently, making a highly skilled person who can also teach a valuable asset for anyone trying to learn.

+1

[Quell]

I'd just rather see "Teach" become a skill.  Do it enough, and you'll be able to teach people much more than you can currently, making a highly skilled person who can also teach a valuable asset for anyone trying to learn.

This would be so cool. Better yet, make a subguild that can get the teach skill higher than normal!

[MeTekillot]

You and I have different interpretations of "better".

[Down Under]

A "Learned Man/Woman" sub guild would be pretty rad.

They can teach people up to a higher maximum than normal, and perhaps get a wisdom bump.

[Riev]

Coming in to say "Bring back Martial Styles" for long lived PCs. Long-lived Militia Sergeant? Maybe over the years he's discovered a pretty rad two-dagger fighting style that is particularly brutal, but leaves him open to a lot of strikes (+DMG, ---Defense). Teachable, through RP, to subordinates as he chooses.

[Rokal]

Coming in to say "Bring back Martial Styles" for long lived PCs. Long-lived Militia Sergeant? Maybe over the years he's discovered a pretty rad two-dagger fighting style that is particularly brutal, but leaves him open to a lot of strikes (+DMG, ---Defense). Teachable, through RP, to subordinates as he chooses.

I like this.

[Saellyn]

Here's the important question with that legion thing:

Are the PCs ingame who are aware of this specialization track making their subordinates/friends aware of these paths, or are they posted on the boards? If not, then peeps simply might not be aware of the offers!

[Riev]

Here's the important question with that legion thing:

Are the PCs ingame who are aware of this specialization track making their subordinates/friends aware of these paths, or are they posted on the boards? If not, then peeps simply might not be aware of the offers!

To (hopefully) answer... no. Rath said that while these things may be in place, he does not want to implement them until they are available for all clans (rather than give the Legions some sudden perceived/actual bonus, and instead give everyone the opportunity)

[Saellyn]

Oh. Well okay then. That clears my end up.