Skill Pool for Lifesworn

[Malken]

But because we're talking about skills, the sid is an afterthought.  A PC with buffed up skills is inherently better off because they can survive.  What good is your 20,000 sid in Nenyuk if you're dead?  If we use Legions as an example, they're obviously out on the front lines(but the bulk of that is training for conflict that hasn't happened yet).

Right, but from what I remember and from what I saw with the Legionnaire project, it didn't involve coded skills at all, it was all like.. A scout thing were you could take different paths and branch out your duties or something like that.

The way Armageddon is made to be played, a lot more people need to be into clans or else it doesn't work out at all, just take Tuluk as an example, the whole thing was built so that there would be inner-city partisan warfare for parts of the city to control but it never panned out that way because it's always lacking PCs in the major clans.

I'm also super happy to hear that the Legion isn't underclanned at the moment I always had a special penchant for that clan.

[Semper]

The way Armageddon is made to be played, a lot more people need to be into clans or else it doesn't work out at all, just take Tuluk as an example, the whole thing was built so that there would be inner-city partisan warfare for parts of the city to control but it never panned out that way because it's always lacking PCs in the major clans.

Until Armageddon gets more regular players, the amount of things that are possible is pretty limited. I think that's why people push for consolidation, or removing parts of the world. The more closer players are, the more interaction you get, and it keeps things interesting not only for current players, but for new players who are trying out Armageddon for the first time.

[solera]

Long term, consolidation wouldn't be much fun. But then, most times I don' t care if I don't see another pc for a week.

[Saellyn]

Truth is, if staff catches that indy hunter twinking too badly, they might just have some rather "unfortunate" rolls, meanwhile, Amos the ruf circle machine can train his skills in relative safety.

Uhh? Not sure what you mean by this, but staff just animate the world realistically around you, they don't enforce twinking policy through IC means(at least, not anymore). That would be stupid. If, say, you're grinding skills on a bunch of elves in an elven area of the 'rinth, they may spawn a bunch of affiliated elves on you to hunt your ass down, but that is different. They won't just spawn a Mekillot on you because you're abusing the salting code, or suddenly reduce your forage skill.

That would lead to players complaining, and then staff having to deal with player complaining... a bunch of work they don't want to deal with.

Shalooonsh once did this to me when I was a wee little lad playing a Jaxa Pah way back in 2011 or so. I learned my lesson pretty fast.

[Molten Heart]

I don't get why anyone thinks they should get more skills just because they're in a clan. Your character comes with the capacity to do a whole lot of stuff by virtue of the main guild - and the capacity to do even more stuff, that might be completely unrelated to the main guild, by virtue of the subguild (or extended subguild as the case may be).

Being a life sworn clan member is a sacrifice, severely limiting ones options. Some added bonuses would make being married to a clan more palatable for me.

[Saellyn]

Bonuses for not being lifesworn:

PH4T CASH
FREEDOM

Bonuses for being lifesworn:
Potentially an army of people to back you up
Political power
Steady paycheck
Steady food and water
Discount goodies from your local clan.

Yep. Being lifesworn blows.

[Molten Heart]

Yep. Being lifesworn blows.

It can if the reasons for one's enjoyment in the clan change, often times when playing in a clan those reasons are out of one's own control (changes in clan leadership/policies/staff/membership/etc.)

[RogueGunslinger]

Nothing is out of your control. You just have to kill the right people.

[Lizzie]

I don't get why anyone thinks they should get more skills just because they're in a clan. Your character comes with the capacity to do a whole lot of stuff by virtue of the main guild - and the capacity to do even more stuff, that might be completely unrelated to the main guild, by virtue of the subguild (or extended subguild as the case may be).

Being a life sworn clan member is a sacrifice, severely limiting ones options. Some added bonuses would make being married to a clan more palatable for me.

Let's take a look at that.

Being a lifesworn clan member = not permanent - though it's intended to be, there are plenty of examples - past and present - of "lifesworn" clannies leaving those clans without it equalling a death sentence. You can't just quit your job like someone who isn't lifesworn, but the possibility exists in the right circumstances. So that's out of the way.

Next: No matter what you choose to play in the game, you are severely limiting your options. Desert elves aren't supposed to hang out in cities. They also can't ride a mount, or a wagon. They also can't be mindbenders, and they also can't be UNclanned, and they are limited to only three clans total. But they can uh - run fast? Yeah that's a great bonus.

Half-giants are supposed to be played as morons. They are also not able to rise in rank to Sergeant or Senior Aide in any clan, and many clans won't hire them at all. They are also codedly difficult - if not impossible - to spar with. They can't carry all that much in their enormous hands. But hey they can bash stuff real good and carry big boxes filled with heavy stuff. There's a bonus I could really love!

Mages can't cast openly in either city or in RSV and aren't supposed to exist in Tuluk at all. They're segregated and can't rent an apartment anywhere in Allanak except their own building. Only one clan will openly hire any gemmed mage, and zero clans will openly hire any ungemmed mage. So really, a mage is intended to be played by someone who enjoys solo RP. Bonuses: the gemmed ones get a gem bonus and a whole temple they can spam-cast in. That's about it.

I can go on with every guild, subguild, race, and location choice but hopefully you get the picture. Many character choices are limiting, and have few bonuses to offset the limitations that aren't available by anyone else. Being lifesworn in a clan is no different, nor should it be. The bonuses are "RP bonuses" and not coded bonuses. Although - there are actually some coded bonuses to being a higher ranking member of a clan. Also, if you're a member of a GMH, you -do- get skill bonuses that other PCs don't get: you get access to all those clan-based recipes.

[Molten Heart]

I don't get why anyone thinks they should get more skills just because they're in a clan. Your character comes with the capacity to do a whole lot of stuff by virtue of the main guild - and the capacity to do even more stuff, that might be completely unrelated to the main guild, by virtue of the subguild (or extended subguild as the case may be).

Being a life sworn clan member is a sacrifice, severely limiting ones options. Some added bonuses would make being married to a clan more palatable for me.

Let's take a look at that.

Being a lifesworn clan member = not permanent - though it's intended to be, there are plenty of examples - past and present - of "lifesworn" clannies leaving those clans without it equalling a death sentence. You can't just quit your job like someone who isn't lifesworn, but the possibility exists in the right circumstances. So that's out of the way.

Next: No matter what you choose to play in the game, you are severely limiting your options. Desert elves aren't supposed to hang out in cities. They also can't ride a mount, or a wagon. They also can't be mindbenders, and they also can't be UNclanned, and they are limited to only three clans total. But they can uh - run fast? Yeah that's a great bonus.

Half-giants are supposed to be played as morons. They are also not able to rise in rank to Sergeant or Senior Aide in any clan, and many clans won't hire them at all. They are also codedly difficult - if not impossible - to spar with. They can't carry all that much in their enormous hands. But hey they can bash stuff real good and carry big boxes filled with heavy stuff. There's a bonus I could really love!

Mages can't cast openly in either city or in RSV and aren't supposed to exist in Tuluk at all. They're segregated and can't rent an apartment anywhere in Allanak except their own building. Only one clan will openly hire any gemmed mage, and zero clans will openly hire any ungemmed mage. So really, a mage is intended to be played by someone who enjoys solo RP. Bonuses: the gemmed ones get a gem bonus and a whole temple they can spam-cast in. That's about it.

I can go on with every guild, subguild, race, and location choice but hopefully you get the picture. Many character choices are limiting, and have few bonuses to offset the limitations that aren't available by anyone else. Being lifesworn in a clan is no different, nor should it be. The bonuses are "RP bonuses" and not coded bonuses. Although - there are actually some coded bonuses to being a higher ranking member of a clan. Also, if you're a member of a GMH, you -do- get skill bonuses that other PCs don't get: you get access to all those clan-based recipes.

My point is the social and RP bonuses that a clan can offer at any given time are out of one's control while one's commitment to that clan is expected to be constant.

So, my character has been a member of Borsail for a little while and the Lady he serves is really amazing and I'm really enjoying the role. My character takes a life oath. For some reason my character's boss, Lady Borsail stops logging in. Because the political power of my character comes directly from Lady Borsail, this limits my character's ability and power. I tough it out but it's not really what I signed up for. My character is stalwart and loyal so he has no desire to leave the house just because he's not working directly for the same noble anymore, but from a game play perspective that's the whole reason I became involved in the clan and am now committed to it. Eventually Lady Borsail's character stores their character and my character and a new PC noble, Lord Borsail arrives. While my first boss, Lady Borsail was more martial focused, Lord Borsail is more of a social and political character. I'm a warrior and Lord Borsail doesn't see me as that useful for his goals so I go mostly underutilized. My enjoyment in the clan really slips and there isn't much I can do other than petition him and my clan staff, otherwise my only options are to store and make a new character.

Clans are heavily dependent on the other people in the clan, the leaders and clan staff. These are the bonuses that I attribute to a clan, things that can't be found other places in the game.  When they change it changes the whole dynamic of a clan.

[Saellyn]

Nothing is in anybodies control. You think your skills are in your control? HAH! Your skills are in control of the dice which can at any time choose to completely fuck you over and have you dead. Lifesworn get AWESOME benefits and I would not mind playing a lifesworn character fifteen hundred billion times.

[Molten Heart]

Nothing is in anybodies control. You think your skills are in your control? HAH! Your skills are in control of the dice which can at any time choose to completely fuck you over and have you dead. Lifesworn get AWESOME benefits and I would not mind playing a lifesworn character fifteen hundred billion times.

Perhaps you are right, some may have no control. Is it possible they don't realize they have choices?

[Patuk]

A possible solution may be swearing to people, not organisations, much as with some templar aides.

[Tetra]

Bonuses for not being lifesworn:

PH4T CASH
FREEDOM

Bonuses for being lifesworn:
Potentially an army of people to back you up What if you're a social PC?
Political power What if not applicable?  Mutant/magicker?
Steady paycheck  See first benefit
Steady food and water  See first benefit
Discount goodies from your local clan. Again if you have fat cash, how does this matter.

Yep. Being lifesworn blows.

Yep.  It does.

[Saellyn]

If you're a social PC a group of buddies backing you up is very fucking useful. Thanks for proving my point.

[Barzalene]

I like clans. Now let me say, I never played Xbox or fps games. The clicking and turning of numbers doesn't make me feel like I'm winning. I don't compare my PCs wealth to other PCs but to the world as advertised. I like that my planned PCs belong. I believe in the prestige of clans. Works for me. You may feel differently.

[Tetra]

If you're a social PC a group of buddies backing you up is very fucking useful. Thanks for proving my point.

Your tone seems more pointed than your point. 

Those buddies have loyalty to the organization, not you, as a character or player.  They could very well be the cause of your death.  An independent is under no such strain, but if they choose to start an indie clan, they can at least run a litmus test of who they associate with or hire.

Your 'buddies' don't really mean much if you can't trust them with your life.

[RogueGunslinger]

How does giving them skills help with any of those clan detriments? Somehow I doubt, by the way you're talking about them, you'd play in clans even if they did offer these benefits for long-lived life-sworn PC's.


Clans have a lot of benefits as is, and you don't seem to think they're enough. I don't think they really need more.

[Tetra]

How does giving them skills help with any of those clan detriments? Somehow I doubt, by the way you're talking about them, you'd play in clans even if they did offer these benefits for long-lived life-sworn PC's.


Clans have a lot of benefits as is, and you don't seem to think they're enough. I don't think they really need more.

I don't think lore-canon clans in the game should receive a chance to branch skills, but all clans, indie or otherwise.  Not because clans are underwhelming(they can be), but because it's a realistic representation of life.  You spend years in service to an organization, you are bound to learn new things.

[RogueGunslinger]

I agree with that.

[Saellyn]

You're bound to learn things just by seeing them. You're bound to learn things by doing them. You can be taught things in real life that you don't otherwise have the skill for.

That isn't done here unless special exceptions are made because it would unbalance the game. Clan benefits are already great. 20k won't do you any good. Being buddies with your clan organization gives you benefits that indies will never get. A high-ranking Salarri has much more political clout, he has authority over a group of people that (generally) aren't out to kill him.

You want to make a case? ANYONE could be out to stab you in the back. Anyone. The chance is generally significantly less in an organization where you're hanging out and working with each other.


Honestly, I don't know what more you want.

[Lizzie]

You spend years in service to an organization, you are bound to learn new things.

That doesn't mean you'll ever be good at those things you learn. I could spend years being a secretary for Berkelee College of Music, and learn everything they teach about music - but it won't make me a pianist, unless I have the skill to play the piano in the first place. I'd need the finger dexterity, a sense of rhythm, and hand-eye-foot coordination. If I lack in those things, all the learning in the world won't do me a lick of good. I won't be a pianist, period.

Same with clans and skills. If I join as a ranger/clothworker, then it means I am not ABLE to craft jewelry. I just don't have a knack for it. They could teach it to me til the mekillots come home and it won't make any difference at all. Just like I could try to teach their master crafter how to shoot a bow and arrow - but if he can't coordinate his movements with his vision, it won't matter. He won't be shooting that bow successfully. He might make a few lucky shots but I'd never trust him outside an archery range.

[rodic]

I would like clans better if there was more freedom/more to do.

Little rules like "NEVER EVER LEAVE DA GATES FOR NO REASON!" which are brought on by an OOCLY construct of "Please don't lose that nice gear and feed it to the scrabs" was designed to keep newbies alive, who had yet learned the game.  To See it carry over when a character clearly is capable of taking care of themselves. seems silly.  Lets face one fact, being trapped in a schedule while watching your indie friends talk about their crazy adventures can be disheartening, while your on month 4 of log in, spar, sit at bar, spar, some rp, spar, log out.

You get kind of jealous and ready to type REBEL at a moments notice because, you're bored, your leadership you haven't seen in weeks, and the clans moving at snail pace towards anything. Whether you character lack the ability to move things forward, or perhaps as the player lacks that level of skill/game knowledge to move things forward themselves...  you find the clan vacated.

I try them every once and awhile and give it a good go, but I rarely last long in clans, they just don't provide that most important resource.... FUN, in fact structurally they get in the way of a lot fun.  Whether ICly constructed or OOCLY limitations, I'm sure many players could care less about sid/skills/and gear if they could just have more FUN.

[RogueGunslinger]

That doesn't mean you'll ever be good at those things you learn. I could spend years being a secretary for Berkelee College of Music, and learn everything they teach about music - but it won't make me a pianist, unless I have the skill to play the piano in the first place. I'd need the finger dexterity, a sense of rhythm, and hand-eye-foot coordination. If I lack in those things, all the learning in the world won't do me a lick of good. I won't be a pianist, period.

Same with clans and skills. If I join as a ranger/clothworker, then it means I am not ABLE to craft jewelry. I just don't have a knack for it. They could teach it to me til the mekillots come home and it won't make any difference at all. Just like I could try to teach their master crafter how to shoot a bow and arrow - but if he can't coordinate his movements with his vision, it won't matter. He won't be shooting that bow successfully. He might make a few lucky shots but I'd never trust him outside an archery range.

I really hate this example. There isn't some hidden code in your genes that says you'll only be able to do certain things in life.

Believe it or not you CAN become a pianist, even a good one. Could you be great? No, that ship has sailed, you needed to start training young, but you could play through a song without fucking up, even with time learn to play complicated arpeggios and scales or learn how to read sheet music. You just have to take lessons on being a pianist. You obviously aren't going to become a pianist by being around other pianists, or by knowing music theory or watching lots of people play the piano. But if you train to play the piano you can indeed become "good".

Same for fighting, singing or any other skill. Anyone can sing. Will they have a great voice? No, so many things factor into what your voice sounds like, but you can learn to sing well with proper training and practice.

[Barzalene]

I would like clans better if there was more freedom/more to do.

Little rules like "NEVER EVER LEAVE DA GATES FOR NO REASON!" which are brought on by an OOCLY construct of "Please don't lose that nice gear and feed it to the scrabs" was designed to keep newbies alive, who had yet learned the game.  To See it carry over when a character clearly is capable of taking care of themselves. seems silly.  Lets face one fact, being trapped in a schedule while watching your indie friends talk about their crazy adventures can be disheartening, while your on month 4 of log in, spar, sit at bar, spar, some rp, spar, log out.

You get kind of jealous and ready to type REBEL at a moments notice because, you're bored, your leadership you haven't seen in weeks, and the clans moving at snail pace towards anything. Whether you character lack the ability to move things forward, or perhaps as the player lacks that level of skill/game knowledge to move things forward themselves...  you find the clan vacated.

I try them every once and awhile and give it a good go, but I rarely last long in clans, they just don't provide that most important resource.... FUN, in fact structurally they get in the way of a lot fun.  Whether ICly constructed or OOCLY limitations, I'm sure many players could care less about sid/skills/and gear if they could just have more FUN.

My experience, limited though it is, is that many leaders will impose those restrictions, but in clans where it makes sense (not soldiers or Byn) they will relax those rules for those who prove themselves capable.