Skill Pool for Lifesworn

[Lizzie]

That doesn't mean you'll ever be good at those things you learn. I could spend years being a secretary for Berkelee College of Music, and learn everything they teach about music - but it won't make me a pianist, unless I have the skill to play the piano in the first place. I'd need the finger dexterity, a sense of rhythm, and hand-eye-foot coordination. If I lack in those things, all the learning in the world won't do me a lick of good. I won't be a pianist, period.

Same with clans and skills. If I join as a ranger/clothworker, then it means I am not ABLE to craft jewelry. I just don't have a knack for it. They could teach it to me til the mekillots come home and it won't make any difference at all. Just like I could try to teach their master crafter how to shoot a bow and arrow - but if he can't coordinate his movements with his vision, it won't matter. He won't be shooting that bow successfully. He might make a few lucky shots but I'd never trust him outside an archery range.

I really hate this example. There isn't some hidden code in your genes that says you'll only be able to do certain things in life.

Believe it or not you CAN become a pianist, even a good one. Could you be great? No, that ship has sailed, you needed to start training young, but you could play through a song without fucking up, even with time learn to play complicated arpeggios and scales or learn how to read sheet music. You just have to take lessons on being a pianist. You obviously aren't going to become a pianist by being around other pianists, or by knowing music theory or watching lots of people play the piano. But if you train to play the piano you can indeed become "good".

Same for fighting, singing or any other skill. Anyone can sing. Will they have a great voice? No, so many things factor into what your voice sounds like, but you can learn to sing well with proper training and practice.

Really, no. Some people are tone-deaf. They can make noise, but they can't sing. Some people aren't coordinated enough to handle a bow and arrow. It is a skill, not an intrinsic knowledge. Some people will never be capable of passing the tests required to enter Law School. Or Medical School. Some people, no matter how interested they might be in the subject, will never be able to successfully fix a computer. Or drive a stick-shift. Or teach a history course to a 5th grade class. Knowing something isn't enough. Skill is also necessary. If you don't have the skill, then knowledge won't help. You might know how to do something - but that doesn't mean you can do it. It just means you know how. Practical application involves skill that you either have or you don't. You can develop skills, but you have to have the capacity for that skill to start with. If you don't have the capacity for it, then you don't have the capacity for it.

Thankfully, I actually believe this is true, or I might have just had a colonoscopy performed by an Avon Lady instead of an actual doctor today.

[RogueGunslinger]

 There a difference between someone never passing the bar and never being ABLE to pass the bar. The difference is in how they are taught, and how motivated they are to learn. I can look at some poor, starving 50 year old man in a third world country and tell you 100% that man will never pass the bar. That doesn't mean he doesn't have what it takes to pass the bar.

People who are tone deaf (roughly 5% of the population) are different. That's like saying someone who is deaf will never learn to sing. Well, yeah, duh. Just like someone who's born blind will never be able to paint a sunset. Just like a man with only one hand will never play a guitar. These people are not fully healthy or fully functional.

If someone isn't coordinated enough to learn how to use a bow(really really easy to learn the basics, I could show you in twenty minutes) then they probably have some form of developmental disorder, physical disorder, or are approaching the task the wrong way with wrong information.

[rodic]

I would like clans better if there was more freedom/more to do.

Little rules like "NEVER EVER LEAVE DA GATES FOR NO REASON!" which are brought on by an OOCLY construct of "Please don't lose that nice gear and feed it to the scrabs" was designed to keep newbies alive, who had yet learned the game.  To See it carry over when a character clearly is capable of taking care of themselves. seems silly.  Lets face one fact, being trapped in a schedule while watching your indie friends talk about their crazy adventures can be disheartening, while your on month 4 of log in, spar, sit at bar, spar, some rp, spar, log out.

You get kind of jealous and ready to type REBEL at a moments notice because, you're bored, your leadership you haven't seen in weeks, and the clans moving at snail pace towards anything. Whether you character lack the ability to move things forward, or perhaps as the player lacks that level of skill/game knowledge to move things forward themselves...  you find the clan vacated.

I try them every once and awhile and give it a good go, but I rarely last long in clans, they just don't provide that most important resource.... FUN, in fact structurally they get in the way of a lot fun.  Whether ICly constructed or OOCLY limitations, I'm sure many players could care less about sid/skills/and gear if they could just have more FUN.

My experience, limited though it is, is that many leaders will impose those restrictions, but in clans where it makes sense (not soldiers or Byn) they will relax those rules for those who prove themselves capable.

It might be a poor example I admit.  It's hard to describe accurately.  In my experience, certain restrictions can lead to a sense of tedium being in clans that is hard to deal with from a player stand point.  They're hard of over come, I know other players find the more social aspects great, partly because they have that level of skill and knowledge in terms of culture.  It's like you can only tavern sit so many nights, spar so many times, before you wish a few beetles would land on caravan way and things could get interesting.

[Tetra]

That doesn't mean you'll ever be good at those things you learn. I could spend years being a secretary for Berkelee College of Music, and learn everything they teach about music - but it won't make me a pianist, unless I have the skill to play the piano in the first place. I'd need the finger dexterity, a sense of rhythm, and hand-eye-foot coordination. If I lack in those things, all the learning in the world won't do me a lick of good. I won't be a pianist, period.

Same with clans and skills. If I join as a ranger/clothworker, then it means I am not ABLE to craft jewelry. I just don't have a knack for it. They could teach it to me til the mekillots come home and it won't make any difference at all. Just like I could try to teach their master crafter how to shoot a bow and arrow - but if he can't coordinate his movements with his vision, it won't matter. He won't be shooting that bow successfully. He might make a few lucky shots but I'd never trust him outside an archery range.

I really hate this example. There isn't some hidden code in your genes that says you'll only be able to do certain things in life.

Believe it or not you CAN become a pianist, even a good one. Could you be great? No, that ship has sailed, you needed to start training young, but you could play through a song without fucking up, even with time learn to play complicated arpeggios and scales or learn how to read sheet music. You just have to take lessons on being a pianist. You obviously aren't going to become a pianist by being around other pianists, or by knowing music theory or watching lots of people play the piano. But if you train to play the piano you can indeed become "good".

Same for fighting, singing or any other skill. Anyone can sing. Will they have a great voice? No, so many things factor into what your voice sounds like, but you can learn to sing well with proper training and practice.

Really, no. Some people are tone-deaf. They can make noise, but they can't sing. Some people aren't coordinated enough to handle a bow and arrow. It is a skill, not an intrinsic knowledge. Some people will never be capable of passing the tests required to enter Law School. Or Medical School. Some people, no matter how interested they might be in the subject, will never be able to successfully fix a computer. Or drive a stick-shift. Or teach a history course to a 5th grade class. Knowing something isn't enough. Skill is also necessary. If you don't have the skill, then knowledge won't help. You might know how to do something - but that doesn't mean you can do it. It just means you know how. Practical application involves skill that you either have or you don't. You can develop skills, but you have to have the capacity for that skill to start with. If you don't have the capacity for it, then you don't have the capacity for it.

Thankfully, I actually believe this is true, or I might have just had a colonoscopy performed by an Avon Lady instead of an actual doctor today.

While what you're saying is true to certain extent, we're essentially talking about nature vs nurture.  The common fallacy people fall into is that they believe that their ability to do anything relies on one or the other, when in reality it is about both.

It is entirely possible for humans to learn something and be relatively proficient at it with no natural talent or background whatsoever.  Talent is not just about pre-determined aptitudes, it's about understanding and experience.  Yes, aptitudes will give you an edge, but that doesn't prevent you from learning a skill in the first place.

[HavokBlue]

That doesn't mean you'll ever be good at those things you learn. I could spend years being a secretary for Berkelee College of Music, and learn everything they teach about music - but it won't make me a pianist, unless I have the skill to play the piano in the first place. I'd need the finger dexterity, a sense of rhythm, and hand-eye-foot coordination. If I lack in those things, all the learning in the world won't do me a lick of good. I won't be a pianist, period.

Same with clans and skills. If I join as a ranger/clothworker, then it means I am not ABLE to craft jewelry. I just don't have a knack for it. They could teach it to me til the mekillots come home and it won't make any difference at all. Just like I could try to teach their master crafter how to shoot a bow and arrow - but if he can't coordinate his movements with his vision, it won't matter. He won't be shooting that bow successfully. He might make a few lucky shots but I'd never trust him outside an archery range.

I really hate this example. There isn't some hidden code in your genes that says you'll only be able to do certain things in life.

Believe it or not you CAN become a pianist, even a good one. Could you be great? No, that ship has sailed, you needed to start training young, but you could play through a song without fucking up, even with time learn to play complicated arpeggios and scales or learn how to read sheet music. You just have to take lessons on being a pianist. You obviously aren't going to become a pianist by being around other pianists, or by knowing music theory or watching lots of people play the piano. But if you train to play the piano you can indeed become "good".

Same for fighting, singing or any other skill. Anyone can sing. Will they have a great voice? No, so many things factor into what your voice sounds like, but you can learn to sing well with proper training and practice.

Really, no. Some people are tone-deaf. They can make noise, but they can't sing. Some people aren't coordinated enough to handle a bow and arrow. It is a skill, not an intrinsic knowledge. Some people will never be capable of passing the tests required to enter Law School. Or Medical School. Some people, no matter how interested they might be in the subject, will never be able to successfully fix a computer. Or drive a stick-shift. Or teach a history course to a 5th grade class. Knowing something isn't enough. Skill is also necessary. If you don't have the skill, then knowledge won't help. You might know how to do something - but that doesn't mean you can do it. It just means you know how. Practical application involves skill that you either have or you don't. You can develop skills, but you have to have the capacity for that skill to start with. If you don't have the capacity for it, then you don't have the capacity for it.

Thankfully, I actually believe this is true, or I might have just had a colonoscopy performed by an Avon Lady instead of an actual doctor today.

Contrary to what you seem to believe people are not born with a hard coded set of skills they can and can't learn and to claim such is on a level of absurdity equivalent to any other pseudoscience bullshit.

[Lizzie]

Good thing I never claimed such. The capacity to learn is not limitless. It isn't possible for everyone to be capable of performing brain surgery. Yes, anyone with fingers and an opposable thumb can hold a scalpel. And sure, anyone who can hold and turn on a black & decker can drill holes in a skull. But that doesn't constitute brain surgery.

Not everyone can do everything. Not everyone has the capacity to learn everything. This doesn't mean everyone comes with hard-coded skills. It means everyone has a capacity to learn, and that capacity has limits.

That's what I meant, and that's what I've said. The point of this entire thread is to support added skills when someone is lifesworn to a clan. I am against it, because it makes no logical sense, and it doesn't even provide me with a capacity to suspend my disbelief, that I can say "I swear on my life to be loyal to this clan" and BOOM - wow I can now backstab, when I couldn't an hour ago. What's even more ridiculous, is on the occasion that I am removed from that life oath (which has happened in the past and happens currently), my ability to backstab suddenly disappears as if I never had it in the first place.

It is not believable. It's not even almost kind of believable enough if I pretend really hard.

[Tetra]

Good thing I never claimed such. The capacity to learn is not limitless. It isn't possible for everyone to be capable of performing brain surgery. Yes, anyone with fingers and an opposable thumb can hold a scalpel. And sure, anyone who can hold and turn on a black & decker can drill holes in a skull. But that doesn't constitute brain surgery.

Not everyone can do everything. Not everyone has the capacity to learn everything. This doesn't mean everyone comes with hard-coded skills. It means everyone has a capacity to learn, and that capacity has limits.

That's what I meant, and that's what I've said. The point of this entire thread is to support added skills when someone is lifesworn to a clan. I am against it, because it makes no logical sense, and it doesn't even provide me with a capacity to suspend my disbelief, that I can say "I swear on my life to be loyal to this clan" and BOOM - wow I can now backstab, when I couldn't an hour ago. What's even more ridiculous, is on the occasion that I am removed from that life oath (which has happened in the past and happens currently), my ability to backstab suddenly disappears as if I never had it in the first place.

It is not believable. It's not even almost kind of believable enough if I pretend really hard.

That's not really a sound example, as nobody in Zalanthas can perform brain surgery.  We aren't talking about rocket science, just learning how to skin an animal(not difficult at all) or hiding(also not hard), or whatever else someone might study for years in their clan.

[Lizzie]

Good thing I never claimed such. The capacity to learn is not limitless. It isn't possible for everyone to be capable of performing brain surgery. Yes, anyone with fingers and an opposable thumb can hold a scalpel. And sure, anyone who can hold and turn on a black & decker can drill holes in a skull. But that doesn't constitute brain surgery.

Not everyone can do everything. Not everyone has the capacity to learn everything. This doesn't mean everyone comes with hard-coded skills. It means everyone has a capacity to learn, and that capacity has limits.

That's what I meant, and that's what I've said. The point of this entire thread is to support added skills when someone is lifesworn to a clan. I am against it, because it makes no logical sense, and it doesn't even provide me with a capacity to suspend my disbelief, that I can say "I swear on my life to be loyal to this clan" and BOOM - wow I can now backstab, when I couldn't an hour ago. What's even more ridiculous, is on the occasion that I am removed from that life oath (which has happened in the past and happens currently), my ability to backstab suddenly disappears as if I never had it in the first place.

It is not believable. It's not even almost kind of believable enough if I pretend really hard.

That's not really a sound example, as nobody in Zalanthas can perform brain surgery.  We aren't talking about rocket science, just learning how to skin an animal(not difficult at all) or hiding(also not hard), or whatever else someone might study for years in their clan.

And I am saying there is nothing in saying "I swear on my life" that explains how someone can now suddenly successfully skin an animal, when they couldn't an hour ago. There is also nothing in saying "Lifesworn Amos, I release you from your oath" that explains how someone who was suddenly able to skin an animal three years ago and for the past three years up until this moment, suddenly can't anymore.

I have nothing against the idea of adding benefits to clanned PC life - but I don't think skills should be one of those benefits.

[Patuk]

I suppose that depends on what you count as easy or not.

Most people can learn how to ride a horse without looking like an idiot, fry an egg without burning the shit out of it, or how to blend into a crowd without standing out very much in a relatively short time.

It's also not very relevant.

Archery, for example, is way more difficult than it looks. The Japanese would say that a thousand days of archery practice is a good start, and the English considered yeomen fit for firing longbows after eleven or so years of practice only. Mind that this would mean people were fit for military use after eleven years, let alone the 'shoot a dude squarely through his throat from a long distance' kind of thing Zalanthans are capable of.

Similarly, intricate crafts take a shitton of effort to do well. Weaving carpets in detailed patterns is a skill that takes decades of practice in some areas. Zalanthas has no metal, and its technology would mean that its craftsmen would require a ridiculous amount of skill to craft good wares with the means they have at their disposal.

I don't think anyone is saying that 90% of people can't be pretty okay at hiding places or cooking things or stabbing people or riding animals or most other skills.

I just don't think achieving master grade in any skill is something you should laugh at.

[Molten Heart]

It would be silly to base additional skills solely on being lifesworn, however I believe it's reasonable that someone who's lifesworn might be taught or pick up specialized skills over time. As far as code wise, it could be something that happens slowly, only inside a special area in a clan compound by people of a certain clan ranking.

For example, Lets a warrior/caravan guard who works for Kadius spends many hours of his down time around their tailors, watching them sew and create different outfits. It could be coded in such a way that this character might branch clothworking and then by practicing -inside the clans crafting area- could slowly advance that skill (but only while inside the clan's special crafting area.) It could be much slower than usual progression to reflect the time it takes to learn and the learning/skill gains only taking place inside the clan area to reflect the specialized knowledge/instruction available there. Now, lets pretend that some unspeakable natural tragedy occurs and House Kadius no longer exists and this character is no longer employed by Kadius, they would still possess that knowledge/skill but because of the lack of those unique specialized learning opportunities, any special skills gained from Kadius wouldn't progress.

I think it's a plausible idea.

[Lizzie]

I don't think it's a matter of grade though, Patuk. I think it is just flat out nonsensical to suddenly know a new skill that you were previously incapable of learning, just because you say "I swear." Swearing an oath should have nothing at all to do with skills. Skills shouldn't be a reward for swearing an oath. A bonus should. Or access to a new area of the estate that you never had access to. Permission to bring friends to your quarters that you never had permission to bring before. Access to the clan bank account. A new special livery reserved only for lifesworn people of your rank. Those are things that could/should go with swearing a lifeoath.

I think it's equally absurd in the reverse, when your life-oath is waived after you've received a "life-oath-based skill" and you suddenly lose your skill. I also happen to think a life-oath should actually BE a life-oath. If you swear it, then that's it. You're with the clan until you die, no exceptions. If you violate the rules, you die earlier rather than later - but you die a member of the clan.

[Saellyn]

... That's so contrived and BS. Nah.

[Molten Heart]

Thank you for contributing Saellyn.

[nauta]

I don't think it's a matter of grade though, Patuk. I think it is just flat out nonsensical to suddenly know a new skill that you were previously incapable of learning, just because you say "I swear." Swearing an oath should have nothing at all to do with skills. Skills shouldn't be a reward for swearing an oath. A bonus should. Or access to a new area of the estate that you never had access to. Permission to bring friends to your quarters that you never had permission to bring before. Access to the clan bank account. A new special livery reserved only for lifesworn people of your rank. Those are things that could/should go with swearing a lifeoath.

I think it's equally absurd in the reverse, when your life-oath is waived after you've received a "life-oath-based skill" and you suddenly lose your skill. I also happen to think a life-oath should actually BE a life-oath. If you swear it, then that's it. You're with the clan until you die, no exceptions. If you violate the rules, you die earlier rather than later - but you die a member of the clan.

Good points!

You could probably address both concerns by:

(a) having it irreversible! (Although sidenote: losing skills through lack of use would be cool.)

(b) having it triggered not because of the oath but because a senior member in the clan (or staff) issued a command, like the other commands they can do, e.g., promote, dump, etc.  There'd be a list of skills that a given clan offers and when the leader feels the clan member has "earned" the new skill through role play (a subjective call on the leader/staff's part), they just do: "clanteach skinning Amosa".

MODIFIED TO ADD: I remember when I was in a clan the coolest bit was when a certain Sr. Agent who had pretty low playtimes would come on and gather around his little erdlulings and teach us neat things about taints (TAINTS TAINTS TAINTS TAINTS) and cures and other neat little bits of lore.  This would be sort of like that.

[Lizzie]

As long as 'lifeoaths" are reversable (and they are), then an irreversable skill-boost won't wash. It'll just encourage people to join clans to buff up their existing skills, which would take long enough to earn the right to swear a life oath - then do so - then find an excuse to get fired without being hunted and killed. Karma-based main guild plus extended subguild plus clan-based skills that aren't part of either - and not having to answer to a clan because lifeoaths don't really mean lifeoaths? I don't think that's a good idea at all.

[Thunkkin]

As long as 'lifeoaths" are reversable (and they are), then an irreversable skill-boost won't wash. It'll just encourage people to join clans to buff up their existing skills, which would take long enough to earn the right to swear a life oath - then do so - then find an excuse to get fired without being hunted and killed. Karma-based main guild plus extended subguild plus clan-based skills that aren't part of either - and not having to answer to a clan because lifeoaths don't really mean lifeoaths? I don't think that's a good idea at all.

Someone taking multiple lifeoaths for twinky reasons sounds like something that would be very apparent to staff (and players).

Literally everything can potentially be abused.

[Riev]

I too think quashing the flow of ideas because I can conceive of a way it will be unfair if someone abuses it. The game should go back to being basically a MUSH with basic kill/flee code and be done with all this silly powergaming.

[Lizzie]

I didn't bring up taking multiple lifeoaths. I'm talking about someone who actually is expecting to end up independent, who joins a clan just to get their skills up and learn extra skills that aren't already on their guild/subguild lists.

There are already clan-based skills in GMHs that you lose if you are no longer with that clan. There's no way to RP around that really - they don't use special needles to sew those cloaks, they're using the exact same cloth that they used the day before, they're sitting at a table that's an exact duplicate of the one they sat at in the clan hall except this one's in their apartment - the same apartment they made half of those clan-based items while they were in the clan.

It doesn't make any IC sense, it's a "because it's a clan-based thing and non-clannies shouldn't have it, period" kind of thing. It -does- make OOC sense. The OOC sense is to prevent people from joining clans JUST to get those recipes, then leaving the clan and making all those same clan-based items. The same rule should apply with skills. But it makes no IC sense already, with the clan-based recipe loss. Adding another thing that makes no sense - makes no sense.

[MeTekillot]

Make clan skills require incremental teaching to increase. You learn backstab because someone in the Guild taught it to you, you get it to apprentice, they have to continue to teach you for you to get it to journeyman, and so on.

[Saellyn]

Thank you Lizzie. Someone else who stands by me.

[Molten Heart]

If someone joined my clan just to get a skill bonus and then broke their lifeoath and left, I'd have them hunted down and killed.

[Tetra]

Good thing I never claimed such. The capacity to learn is not limitless. It isn't possible for everyone to be capable of performing brain surgery. Yes, anyone with fingers and an opposable thumb can hold a scalpel. And sure, anyone who can hold and turn on a black & decker can drill holes in a skull. But that doesn't constitute brain surgery.

Not everyone can do everything. Not everyone has the capacity to learn everything. This doesn't mean everyone comes with hard-coded skills. It means everyone has a capacity to learn, and that capacity has limits.

That's what I meant, and that's what I've said. The point of this entire thread is to support added skills when someone is lifesworn to a clan. I am against it, because it makes no logical sense, and it doesn't even provide me with a capacity to suspend my disbelief, that I can say "I swear on my life to be loyal to this clan" and BOOM - wow I can now backstab, when I couldn't an hour ago. What's even more ridiculous, is on the occasion that I am removed from that life oath (which has happened in the past and happens currently), my ability to backstab suddenly disappears as if I never had it in the first place.

It is not believable. It's not even almost kind of believable enough if I pretend really hard.

That's not really a sound example, as nobody in Zalanthas can perform brain surgery.  We aren't talking about rocket science, just learning how to skin an animal(not difficult at all) or hiding(also not hard), or whatever else someone might study for years in their clan.

And I am saying there is nothing in saying "I swear on my life" that explains how someone can now suddenly successfully skin an animal, when they couldn't an hour ago. There is also nothing in saying "Lifesworn Amos, I release you from your oath" that explains how someone who was suddenly able to skin an animal three years ago and for the past three years up until this moment, suddenly can't anymore.

I have nothing against the idea of adding benefits to clanned PC life - but I don't think skills should be one of those benefits.

I think you're painting a really ugly portrait of the implications this system would entail.  You don't suddenly *wake up one day because you lifeswore and magically know how to shoot a bow*.

It would be supplemented with RP over in-game years and okay'd by staff with a system of checks and balances. 

[Riev]

I think there are two arguments here over mechanics, as well. There are CODED BENEFITS to joining a clan, hinted at by Lizzie. But what is being suggested is the possibility to speak with staff about additions of skills NOT SPECIFICALLY using a special application but rather because a hunting clan has the ability to (over time) teach you to at least get to low Journeyman in a skill.

Is this correct?

[Tetra]

I think there are two arguments here over mechanics, as well. There are CODED BENEFITS to joining a clan, hinted at by Lizzie. But what is being suggested is the possibility to speak with staff about additions of skills NOT SPECIFICALLY using a special application but rather because a hunting clan has the ability to (over time) teach you to at least get to low Journeyman in a skill.

Is this correct?

Yes(but I would say they would get it at novice with a shorter entry threshold to apply, cap out at low-mid journeyman).  And it would be approved by someone based on a history of roleplay demonstrating the PC's lifestyle involving the use/practice of said skill.

[Lizzie]

You can already do that with the request tool. It isn't automatic, but it is already possible.