Elf racial running

[MeTekillot]

Elves should make upstart street gangs that come and go.

[BadSkeelz]

That's the thing, try running away, and they pursue, even to their own inevitable demise.

So what's the problem, then? You not only dodged the bullet, it turned around and got the pursuer smack in the forehead. Lay low and count yourself lucky.

Elves = Pikeys from Snatch.

I think this is a useful analogy, but also somewhat flawed. Snatch's "Pikeys" are very similar to Rinthi Elves, in that they're a criminal family who have firepower equal to their opponents (think of Bricktop as a Guild crew leader) who also know to use their home ground to good effect.  Pikeys had the benefit of superior numbers and mobility, so that they could overwhelm their enemies and then evade a greater power (the police's) wrath. Rinthi Elves have similar cover, so long as they're operating in the east side of the Labyrinth.

The analogy begins to fall apart when you try to say that All City Elves are Pikeys. Most City Elves are living as a minority, without support, and few places to run whenever the majority decides to fuck with them. They don't have any of the advantages that allow the rinthi Elf population to survive. It's just kind of a tightrope walk of survival until some asshole runs up and pushes you off because they can. (And I'll admit, it's sometimes fun to do this. It's a relatively safe outlet for pent up frustrations because hey, that City Elf probably has no tribe to cover for them, and if they do sometimes I'm willing to take that risk for some excitement.)

Maybe they should just make all City Elves in Allanak start in the Rinth...

[Armaddict]

Maybe it'd be helpful for there to be a slight revision to documentation that keeps things as they are, but with one additional 'step' in the elven mentality, which is that elves look out for elves.

That sharp over there isn't tribe, but you -know- he's getting fucked just for being an elf, and dammit, you're an elf too.  Elves band together against outsiders, and that includes racially speaking.

Would that make a severe change?  I think so.  And it might make it more reliable for newer players, having that knowledge that that sharp -will- still fuck you, but will, in most cases, also side with you when other people stick their noses into elven business.  Or will this just create situations where it would be even more complex and hard to judge?

[Patuk]

That would be pretty interesting, actually.

'I don't care for the soldier or the thief. But, if I let him get dragged off now, I'll be the one beat up tomorrow. He's prolly gonna try and rob me anyway if I take him back home and shit, but if I just throw a rock at the soldier he can at least get away and have a chance at helping me out later.'

Or something like that.

[Malken]

I think that "lone elves" should be completely removed from the game and instead we should have a more realistic version of what elves would be like on Arm, "A gang of elves stand here, ready to cut you up." just like we have "A unit of soldiers".

Elves are ridiculous because their docs are made to go with what it would be like to have the backing of a whole tribe behind you.

If the docs said that elves were loners and were highly anti-social, especially to one another, and they had the expertise to do so in both a coded and documented way, then elves would be awfully more playable.

Maybe we should go in that direction instead of always hoping that 15 players will suddenly all decide to play an elf from the same tribe at the same time.

This is so MUSH-like where the GM constantly has to remind us that there's a background that we need to consider with our actions but we never actually see that background being played out, we are just constantly reminded that it exists ICly.

[CodeMaster]

If the docs said that elves were loners and were highly anti-social, especially to one another, and they had the expertise to do so in both a coded and documented way, then elves would be awfully more playable.

Maybe we should go in that direction instead of always hoping that 15 players will suddenly all decide to play an elf from the same tribe at the same time.

This is so MUSH-like where the GM constantly has to remind us that there's a background that we need to consider with our actions but we never actually see that background being played out, we are just constantly reminded that it exists ICly.

At the risk of sounding cynical too I feel like this would be a fruitful direction to take that makes a lot of IC sense, and really evokes a sense of ruin and bastardization, which I think is very Zalanthan:

The high-level idea is to suggest the big city somehow inflicts itself on the elven psyche, dampening their tribal spirit.  There would be elves that retained their tribal instincts, but they would be the exception.  Thus the docs would reflect a reality that most (all?) PC city elves face, including newbies.

It also feels like it would require less administrative overhead to take this approach.  No need to define a bunch of tribes and clans, unless players wanted to make a family rolecall.  Just a bunch of humanoid rats running around, dire and pitiable shadows of their tribal cousins.  I can't really comment on it too much, but it seems like this is the way city elf players engage the game at the moment too -- so it wouldn't change much.

A small coded boost of some kind or a bit more depth to city elf life might make them more appealing to play since they're barred from many common activities -- but I think their players should take a bit of pride in the fact that they're playing the game on "nightmare" mode, and my impression is they have some sweet advantages in the right circumstances.

Maybe my next char will be a city elf.

[MeTekillot]

Er. That's how elves are now, with the whole loner thing blahblahblah. And uh. . . there's like 2 elves every six months because of it. Why would we want to change the docs to fit that?

[Malken]

Er. That's how elves are now, with the whole loner thing blahblahblah. And uh. . . there's like 2 elves every six months because of it. Why would we want to change the docs to fit that?

It's what I just wrote, because it's the reality of the game, so why not make the docs fit the reality instead of always hoping that the playerbase will finally become what the docs say it should be like.

THERE WILL NEVER BE A GANG OF PC ELVES. There might be three elf PCs from the same tribe by some miracle and great timing, but that's not a gang, that's a few PCs pretending they are part of a gang.

The docs say you are part of a gang, the Staff says you are part of a gang but the reality is that you're just one idiot who decided to play an elf that is part of a virtual gang when in reality you're just a loner who is constantly reminded that the rest of the playerbase sucks and they haven't read that you are part of a virtual gang that will virtually take care of them if they harass you too much.

[CodeMaster]

Malken has choice words:

This is so MUSH-like where the GM constantly has to remind us that there's a background that we need to consider with our actions but we never actually see that background being played out, we are just constantly reminded that it exists ICly.

My favorite thing about Arm is it's all about RP but it has these coded aspects that back up its documented reality.  But city elves are in a situation where there's not much backing up the documented reality of your typical city elf ("tribe is key"), so they're anomolous in that regard.

I wrote some more thoughts on this a while back over here.

[Rathustra]

They are. I doubt Rusarla would promote an elf to master bard status, though. Also, shadow artist status isn't really helpful in public life, unless you're so ridiculously competent that you can flaunt your badassery and accomplish ratsucker-style senior noble assassinations like it ain't no thang.

The best Rusarla NPC is the elven master bard.

[Qzzrbl]

Maybe it'd be helpful for there to be a slight revision to documentation that keeps things as they are, but with one additional 'step' in the elven mentality, which is that elves look out for elves.

That sharp over there isn't tribe, but you -know- he's getting fucked just for being an elf, and dammit, you're an elf too.  Elves band together against outsiders, and that includes racially speaking.

Would that make a severe change?  I think so.  And it might make it more reliable for newer players, having that knowledge that that sharp -will- still fuck you, but will, in most cases, also side with you when other people stick their noses into elven business.  Or will this just create situations where it would be even more complex and hard to judge?

I'm so tempted to roll up an elf and play just like this.

Docs and karma be damned.

[Nyr]

Elves are 40% of so of the free population in either city. It would make a difference.

According to something that is not in the documentation.  This is why I feel it is important to review such things because players are basing their opinions about how elves should be roleplayed based something posted on the GDB.

[Fujikoma]

Elves are 40% of so of the free population in either city. It would make a difference.

According to something that is not in the documentation.  This is why I feel it is important to review such things because players are basing their opinions about how elves should be roleplayed based something posted on the GDB.

If you adjust the percentage lower you'll have to somehow cut down on the number of breeds, either that or adjust the documents on humans and elves mating.

EDIT: An alternate solution would be to make them too stubborn to ride as well, despite having the ability to become quite skilled at it. I doubt many people would play breeds then.

[Nyr]

Elves are 40% of so of the free population in either city. It would make a difference.

According to something that is not in the documentation.  This is why I feel it is important to review such things because players are basing their opinions about how elves should be roleplayed based something posted on the GDB.

If you adjust the percentage lower you'll have to somehow cut down on the number of breeds, either that or adjust the documents on humans and elves mating.

You are correct in that changing one changes all, but you're talking about adjusting a percentage lower that is not in documentation; regardless of the end result, the documentation will reinforce itself.

[Patuk]

We're talking about a statistic you have presented to us, Nyr. It's a little silly to receive a neat amount of statistics from you one day and then to hear things are totally different the other.

[Khorne8]

Maybe it'd be helpful for there to be a slight revision to documentation that keeps things as they are, but with one additional 'step' in the elven mentality, which is that elves look out for elves.

That sharp over there isn't tribe, but you -know- he's getting fucked just for being an elf, and dammit, you're an elf too.  Elves band together against outsiders, and that includes racially speaking.

Would that make a severe change?  I think so.  And it might make it more reliable for newer players, having that knowledge that that sharp -will- still fuck you, but will, in most cases, also side with you when other people stick their noses into elven business.  Or will this just create situations where it would be even more complex and hard to judge?

I'm not sure this requires a documentation change.  Considering the elvish mindset, if that round-ear over there is fucking with that a sharp, just because they're a sharp, well... they'll be doing the same thing the next day with another sharp and the next day with another.  Eventually, they will get to someone you do care about. Especially, if their behavior is so egregious that it is encouraging other people to fuck with other sharps.

AmosFan #1: Hey, look Amos is pulling off that sharp's ears!
AmosFan #2: Yeah that's pretty cool, maybe I'll find a sharp tomorrow and pull off her ears too!
AmosFan #3: Yeah....

If you can fuck with them with impunity in return?  By all means I'd say go for it.  You're not protecting that sharp, fuck that sharp.  You're protecting yourself and your own by making sure that shit doesn't touch them.

AmosFan #1: Hey, dude remember when Amos pulled that sharps ears off?  We should go do that!
AmosFan #2: Uh, no?  Didn't you see Amos hanging from his kanker on Merchants...
AmosFan #3: (nodding) ... with his own ears shoved in his mouth?

[Fujikoma]

Maybe it'd be helpful for there to be a slight revision to documentation that keeps things as they are, but with one additional 'step' in the elven mentality, which is that elves look out for elves.

That sharp over there isn't tribe, but you -know- he's getting fucked just for being an elf, and dammit, you're an elf too.  Elves band together against outsiders, and that includes racially speaking.

Would that make a severe change?  I think so.  And it might make it more reliable for newer players, having that knowledge that that sharp -will- still fuck you, but will, in most cases, also side with you when other people stick their noses into elven business.  Or will this just create situations where it would be even more complex and hard to judge?

I'm not sure this requires a documentation change.  Considering the elvish mindset, if that round-ear over there is fucking with that a sharp, just because they're a sharp, well... they'll be doing the same thing the next day with another sharp and the next day with another.  Eventually, they will get to someone you do care about. Especially, if their behavior is so egregious that it is encouraging other people to fuck with other sharps.

AmosFan #1: Hey, look Amos is pulling off that sharp's ears!
AmosFan #2: Yeah that's pretty cool, maybe I'll find a sharp tomorrow and pull off her ears too!
AmosFan #3: Yeah....

If you can fuck with them with impunity in return?  By all means I'd say go for it.  You're not protecting that sharp, fuck that sharp.  You're protecting yourself and your own by making sure that shit doesn't touch them.

AmosFan #1: Hey, dude remember when Amos pulled that sharps ears off?  We should go do that!
AmosFan #2: Uh, no?  Didn't you see Amos hanging from his kanker on Merchants...
AmosFan #3: (nodding) ... with his own ears shoved in his mouth?

If only there was a way to upvote posts... just know that when you do this in a harsh world where hundreds of bodies are dumped on the pile every day, you're going to hear shit like "Oh no! Amos was such a good guy!" "Yeah, Amos was a saint!" "I've instructed my troops to kill every sharp they see, because Amos's worthless commoner ass got himself killed." "I was so going to bang Amos and now I'm all life-sworn to vengance.". It's quite discouraging, like, wow, really? You're breaking my immersion here. Amos was shit just like everyone else, and he pretty much did it to himself.

[Nyr]

We're talking about a statistic you have presented to us, Nyr. It's a little silly to receive a neat amount of statistics from you one day and then to hear things are totally different the other.

I quoted what was already on the GDB from a former staff member.  There has been no official staff undertaking to go over this stuff and actually document it until now.  

I'm sorry if this is a surprise or if it is troubling or silly, that wasn't my intention.  I've brought it up before in a thread that evolved very similarly to this one, so I did not think it would be a surprise to see that I was going to take it on as a project when I had time.

Also, while staff and players refer to those population stats on the GDB, I'm pretty sure it's not official documentation-worthy stuff.  It really needs a look so that it can be (if need be) put into official documentation.

[Fujikoma]

We're talking about a statistic you have presented to us, Nyr. It's a little silly to receive a neat amount of statistics from you one day and then to hear things are totally different the other.

I quoted what was already on the GDB from a former staff member.  There has been no official staff undertaking to go over this stuff and actually document it until now.  

I'm sorry if this is a surprise or if it is troubling or silly, that wasn't my intention.  I've brought it up before in a thread that evolved very similarly to this one, so I did not think it would be a surprise to see that I was going to take it on as a project when I had time.

Also, while staff and players refer to those population stats on the GDB, I'm pretty sure it's not official documentation-worthy stuff.  It really needs a look so that it can be (if need be) put into official documentation.

I think the %40 stat is perfectly reasonable and needs no adjustment, to adjust it further downwards would be to snowball the shit already going on downhill without any stops, and to crank it up a notch would be to destabilize the social structure. What I think needs to happen are either players need to start RPing with elves responsibly, or some kind of punishment system must be put into place for particularly careless and cruel transgressions, a position for which Badskeelz (possibly jokingly) chose to nominate himself for in the RAT thread... or, you could just, give the c-elves some tribes. I know it takes a lot of work, there was already a system in place. Was it actually broken SO badly that it needed to be closed until a solution could be come up with? Or was it something that possibly could have remained open to provide a balance of power and a small safety net for elves while work on a new system was taking place? Keep in mind, this is coming from a mostly Allanaki perspective, I'm still learning about the other locations, but I have seen plenty of shit go down in Nak to know.

[Nyr]

I've provided exact responses to this before and linked them in the thread so that they can be found without much extra effort.

[Armaddict]

I'm not sure this requires a documentation change.  Considering the elvish mindset, if that round-ear over there is fucking with that a sharp, just because they're a sharp, well... they'll be doing the same thing the next day with another sharp and the next day with another.  Eventually, they will get to someone you do care about. Especially, if their behavior is so egregious that it is encouraging other people to fuck with other sharps.

What I was getting at, was essentially a tiered sort of loyalty in city elven culture, where other elves are 'higher' by default.  It isn't that someone has to be being blatantly racist, it's that elves have been repressed for a long time, together, and from their perspective, -everything- from other people is likely just because they're a sharp.  With a tiered loyalty, it kind of reinforces testing.  It 'bumps' people.  So, for example.

Elves in tribe>Direct close-tribe relations (tribes your tribe interacts with steadily through contracts, business, social life, etc.)>other tribes in the neighborhood(You see them steadily, share news, know their kids, etc)>elven tribes in the community(They live in the 'rinth, same as you)>known elves of the city>outsiders (other races, elves who appear to be completely unknown).

I.e. A newbie elf will not be trusted.  But entrenching themselves into the community makes them climb quickly.  If they're just floating around ethereally, with no one getting to recognize them as part of the community, they'll never be trusted.  But elves band together, whether in tribe or not, just because of the idea that no one other than an elf can understand why it's important.  Other people, outsiders, other races...they can still climb up in those tiers, but that's where the testing is required.  As those tiers go up...the willingness to 'fuck them' goes down.  So...someone who is halfway up that scale?  You'd fuck them moderately, but never to the point where you're getting them into serious shit.  An outsider?  You'll let them die as long as you make fifty sid out of it.  Someone considered in tribe?  You won't fuck them at all.

EDITED TO ADD:  I'm still okay with elves as they are, but it's pretty obvious that more is wanted.  This is kind of a change that I think is relatively small and doesn't retcon the race as a whole, but allows people to play it in a more viable way for 'mainstreaming'.  And it explains why things like eastside exist.  Elves tend toward elves in all things.  They put roots together, even when out of tribe.  If it's not tribe, they still want the elven community over anyone else.

EDITED AGAIN TO ADD:  This would also reinforce that messing with a single elf is one thing.  Going into a place where elves are all over and messing with them is another thing entirely.  That practice that people have picked up of going to find elven muggers and letting them attack them, then defending themselves with 'he attacked me, not the other way around' ain't gonna fly.  You'd better have an in in the community, or they're all gonna be all over you for even getting tangled up with elves in the first place.  Maybe even just add...a couple quick quit places that are close together, but are mildly decorated so that PC elves can have a preference, and it takes the spot of 'neighborhood'.  That quit room has a fighting ring.  That quit room is a spice den sorta place.  etc etc etc.

[Khorne8]

What I was getting at, was essentially a tiered sort of loyalty in city elven culture, where other elves are 'higher' by default.  It isn't that someone has to be being blatantly racist, it's that elves have been repressed for a long time, together, and from their perspective, -everything- from other people is likely just because they're a sharp.  With a tiered loyalty, it kind of reinforces testing.  It 'bumps' people.  So, for example.

Elves in tribe>Direct close-tribe relations (tribes your tribe interacts with steadily through contracts, business, social life, etc.)>other tribes in the neighborhood(You see them steadily, share news, know their kids, etc)>elven tribes in the community(They live in the 'rinth, same as you)>known elves of the city>outsiders (other races, elves who appear to be completely unknown).

With you on all of this, but I think you're missing one level of complexity.

Elves in tribe> Key Elf and Non-Elf contacts (which includes non-Elves your tribe is closely tied with> Direct close-tribe relations (tribes your tribe interacts with steadily through contracts, business, social life, etc.)>other tribes in the neighborhood(You see them steadily, share news, know their kids, etc)>elven tribes in the community(They live in the 'rinth, same as you)>known elves of the city>outsiders (other races, elves who appear to be completely unknown).

If it's not tribe, they still want the elven community over anyone else.

That one addition would go against the above.  For example, I'm not going to piss of the Templarate because of Bob the Elf from down the street who's sister I once had a thing for.

[CodeMaster]

EDITED TO ADD:  I'm still okay with elves as they are, but it's pretty obvious that more is wanted.  This is kind of a change that I think is relatively small and doesn't retcon the race as a whole, but allows people to play it in a more viable way for 'mainstreaming'.  And it explains why things like eastside exist.  Elves tend toward elves in all things.  They put roots together, even when out of tribe.  If it's not tribe, they still want the elven community over anyone else.

EDITED AGAIN TO ADD:  This would also reinforce that messing with a single elf is one thing.  Going into a place where elves are all over and messing with them is another thing entirely.  That practice that people have picked up of going to find elven muggers and letting them attack them, then defending themselves with 'he attacked me, not the other way around' ain't gonna fly.  You'd better have an in in the community, or they're all gonna be all over you for even getting tangled up with elves in the first place.  Maybe even just add...a couple quick quit places that are close together, but are mildly decorated so that PC elves can have a preference, and it takes the spot of 'neighborhood'.  That quit room has a fighting ring.  That quit room is a spice den sorta place.  etc etc etc.

There is documented precedent for elves having a tendency to band together in times of duress:

   With the Dragon's arrival in the Known World, and the subsequent and
speedy fall of the Empire, the elven tribes banded together for a short
while (perhaps two hundred years). While closely grouped, the tribal
tongues grew more and more related, eventually becoming what is today
recognized as Allundean.

City elves -- most of all, Allanaki city elves who live in a city founded to diminish "the elven threat" (for real!), whose largest neighborhood is a trash-filled ghetto, who are frequently executed in the arena as a joke -- are certainly living under duress.  So I don't think Armaddict's suggestion here is really out of line with how we've seen elves behave in the past.

[Fujikoma]

Now that I've calmed down some, I'd like to apologize to everyone if my tone seemed a little, hostile. The wounds are still fresh, and many. It's highly likely my perspective is quite a bit skewed, having played almost nothing but c-elves in the Allanak area almost the past year and a half (some venturing further out for extended periods of time), I have seen numerous behaviors I've perceived as questionable in Allanak, and Allanak is exceptionally thick-skulled when it comes to threat evaluation, so, when a situation from the past is brought up without the minute details that spell out exactly why certain actions took place (Necker was being a necker, so I took his vNPC baby, tore off its head, and shat in its mouth in the middle of the tavern, and I thought it was unfair that I was later murdered by his non-necker friends), I am, of course, inclined to side with the elf... which is why I'm taking some time off from playing them.

Anyway, I've rambled in a hostile manner enough, and intend to just shut up about it, because there's very little more I can say, and what has been said is, honestly, only from one side of the issue. It's up to me to explore the other side now and try and understand it, so maybe it finally makes sense.

[wizturbo]

I'd love to see an Elven quarter or neighborhood in the cities, apart from places like the 'rinth.