Bardic Performances

[Desertman]

I don't think I've ever been to a northern bardic show that was actually entertaining on an OOC level in terms of performances.

Granted, I haven't been to all of them, but several of them. They are entertaining on an IC level, but on an OOC level, I just kind of hope they are over soon so I can stop roleplaying my character enjoying them.

They have always felt like a chore to me to have to sit through them behind my keyboard.

Allanak is the sort of place where bardic types can exist, they just aren't obligatorily "enjoyed". If you aren't entertaining in Allanak, you don't have any clout by being a "bard" with an associated culture of respected "rank". People don't have to pretend to enjoy your crap. If you are shitty bard...they tell you so. I like that.

[Nyr]

I don't think I've ever been to a northern bardic show that was actually entertaining on an OOC level in terms of performances.

Granted, I haven't been to all of them, but several of them. They are entertaining on an IC level, but on an OOC level, I just kind of hope they are over soon so I can stop roleplaying my character enjoying them.

They have always felt like a chore to me to have to sit through them behind my keyboard.

Somewhat of a tangent, but...on one level it is admirable that you would go to several events that you don't like (as a player), while playing a PC that likes it, roleplaying through it.  On another, I'd think it would be easier to roleplay closer to your own feelings on the matter, as it isn't against the documentation to dislike someone's performance IC.  If your issues are how they are presented and played on an OOC level, then you can still play a PC that doesn't get or understand music or performance or theater, go to the event, and roleplay THAT instead.  Or roleplay someone that is hilariously BAD at interpreting or understanding the subtleties of performance.  This is a game you are playing, after all, and if you aren't having fun, make a game out of something that would provide fun for you within the context of the world. 

Intently watch the performance, nodding slowly, then say softly, "So...when the bard gave a glance over to that noble, while singing about the 'kryl tax.'  Yes, I've got it.  Her noble is that Lyksaen Lady, right?  No, hear me out--kryl tax sounds like silk packs.  Right?  So...She's going to get a silk pack at the end of the performance, full of coin.  You mark my words."  Nod sagely and mention it to your tablemates.  When they express incredulity, continue to do this.  They'll want to play with you because of your own interpretations of the event--not just them, but everyone in the room that overhears you.   It doesn't have to be high-brow, it doesn't have to be intelligent, it just has to be funny and IC and entertaining to you, and said at the right place and time. You're wrong, of course, but you would be (hopefully) enjoying yourself, because you're the local comic relief.  That would be way more fun for me as a player, at least, even if I were the one performing--because I would want to hear how you misinterpret my next piece.

Your mileage may vary.

[Desertman]

I guess my problem is generally I only show up with characters who would enjoy Tuluki bardic music heh. I don't think I've shown up to many bardic shows with characters who wouldn't enjoy going.

Now, I'm at a bardic show full of emotes like....

"Obviously the product of years of practice the ivory-skinned bard girl strums her mandolin talentedly, sending forth pleasing notes into the crowd."

With a character who would appreciate said music. So....I suffer through it because it is IC'ly what should be done while my character comments on how fantastic her lyrics and music are.......when they really aren't.

Maybe I'll try showing up with that guy who doesn't belong there just to heckle. I can see that being very entertaining.  

[Rathustra]

We're still working on the Rock Band plugin for MUSHclient. Once we've sorted that out we should have a much better bardic experience.

[Barzalene]

I hate the whole bardic thing but I don't want to hurt players' feelings. (I don't like spinach. Its not your recipe. Its the spinach. )

But there are also IC ramifications of alienating characters because you extend your bias to your PC. You're kind of obligated to endure it.

Instead if playing closer to my feelings I turn on the TV.

[Patuk]

Bard shows are Armageddon's family dinners, obviously.

[Desertman]

I hate the whole bardic thing but I don't want to hurt players' feelings. (I don't like spinach. Its not your recipe. Its the spinach. )

But there are also IC ramifications of alienating characters because you extend your bias to your PC. You're kind of obligated to endure it.

Instead if playing closer to my feelings I turn on the TV.

The real issue I have is if I roleplay not appreciating this ranked bard's talents I am now the social pariah who obviously can't appreciate the finer things of Tuluki society.

I am the problem. Their performance was fantastic. They are Circle-trained and extremely talented! I just don't get it and I'm not truly Tuluki! Blah blah blah.

Sometimes I just want to say, "Alright everyone, how did this guy/girl ever even get to this rank in this Circle? Has anyone ever even enjoyed a single performance they have put on or are we all just assuming we would because they are Circle trained and so we go with that? This is the fifth time I've seen them perform, and I have to say....damn, standards are low for promotion.".

I did see a Lirathan more or less publically shame a bardic performance put on by a ranked Circle-trained bard for it being one of the worst ones I have ever seen (which may have been on purpose). Shamed her right to her face in front of the entire crowd. I was playing a half-giant at the time, and it was the only time I've been able to really truly express my thoughts at a bardic event without facing repercussions. It was golden. I laughed a fair bit.

[Barzalene]

That's what meant Dman.

[Nyr]

Now, I'm at a bardic show full of emotes like....

"Obviously the product of years of practice the ivory-skinned bard girl strums her mandolin talentedly, sending forth pleasing notes into the crowd."

The real issue I have is if I roleplay not appreciating this ranked bard's talents I am now the social pariah who obviously can't appreciate the finer things of Tuluki society.

I am the problem. Their performance was fantastic. They are Circle-trained and extremely talented! I just don't get it and I'm not truly Tuluk! Blah blah blah.

I don't think you're the problem here, unless it is your assumption that this is what bardic performance should be in this game (no, not Tuluk, not Allanak, the whole thing).  I think we'd benefit from a constructive thread detailing what makes for an entertaining performance and what makes for an annoying and borderline "badly roleplayed" (or at least cringe-inducing) performance, and making that a collaboration document (eventually) for bards in any venue to use as a resource.  If interested in discussing, I would be more than happy to split off the necessary posts into their own thread.  Let me know.

[Desertman]

That seems like a good idea. 

[Barzalene]

I don't like any of it. Good or bad. Good would be in places people have to to see the performance, rather than random in bars or places people were before the performance began.
Also, short.

[nauta]

Not to continue the derail, but (a) I love bardic events, and (b) I agree they can be boring OOCly but they don't have to be.  They have to be done right - I've had terribly boring OOC experiences with songs (which is why I think it's funny we have the switch to turn songs off!) but I've had some really good ones too.  

There was a recent one that was pretty amazing, and it helps if the audience gets involved.  I think there's room for the naive commoner to really get into the performance, by ooing and awing and not really remembering the fourth wall, even if you can't insult the performance directly or - disappeared.

[Rathustra]

Here's a handy template for spectating in bardic events:

[Reiloth]

As far as bardic performances go---

During the Golden Era of 2006 Tuluk, I think there was a very good cadre of bards around. Holten Irofel, Methyas Groot, Mae Konviwedu, Jochebed Elkinhym, Bebecim Groot, and so on. The dynamic between them was excellent, because they were all of different ranks, but also different experiences, and experience levels, and they made that clear through their RP.

What I see a lot of now (perhaps because there isn't a guide or collaborative piece that helps bards, which I think is a great idea) is Apprentices, either right out of the box after Apping in, or before/during an audition, SHREDDING on their instruments. Just absolute MONSTERS on their instruments, via emotes. They don't make mistakes, they don't blunder through a chorus, they don't get nervous and forget words. It's just an AMAZING performance. And that leaves a lot to be desired.

My only advice to Bards/Bard PCs is to start at the bottom. Don't be excellent, just out of the gates. RP your journey through music and learning one instrument at a time, at the same painfully slow pace that learning a combat skill would take. Perform -- and fail, right when it matters. It provides such a depth of RP to your PC that being a virtuoso just glides past.

I think bardic performances would be a lot more enjoyable if people performing took this into account.

[Nyr]

Moving over the derailed discussion from another thread.  Just a moment.

[Quell]

I've always been of the opinion that in a roleplaying game the fact someone is playing music should be considered the backdrop, with the real meat of the event being what is going on around and with the performer while they're playing. With that said, performances that involve the audience somehow are going to tend to be more fun OOCly than performances that just set someone far off on stage to do their thing by themselves as if the audience was watching them on TV.

Some things a performer might do to keep the player audience entertained:

*Take a moment to look up and glare at a heckler. If no one's heckling, you can use a VNPC.
*Toss a token out to the crowd at the end of the performance, maybe your guitar pick, maybe your shirt. Depends on the sort of performance.
*Instead of performing music for a seated audience, make it music to dance to!
*Smile to, wink at, sing to, or shake it at specific named members of the audience.
*Save an emote or two to bring alive the VNPCs of the crowd. Don't Mary Sue this by talking about how much the VNPCs love your performance, make them do some interesting things. Maybe even be your own heckler?
*Hire bouncers to harass "troublemakers" in the crowd.

I think if people keep in mind that the music is in fact just the backdrop to the scene, and not the scene itself, these could be a lot more interesting.

[nauta]

To contribute, because why not: Often the problem seems to be that bardic events involve a LOAD of PCs in the room, and so there's the "spam talking" problem.  I know I always go passive when I get in big crowds, resorting to feels and thinks and hemotes, for fear of being shown up as a bad RPer. Dividing up into tables is good, and the Tuluki tearoom is really good for this.

[Marauder Moe]

So when I played in Poet's Circle for a little while () the staff heavily encouraged us to to pre-compose our performances so that we could just cut and paste them into the client command bar.  I think this helps a lot.

Indeed, written descriptions of music are not only HARD, but even when done well are BORING.  No one ever transcribes famous melodies into English, after all.  So much of music is literally indescribable.

I tried to spend a lot more time making the lyrics interesting than the emotes about performance.  I never composed a song, it was always a poem, a story, and/or a joke.  Something that could be appreciated separately from any music.

Audience interaction is also a good idea when you can fit it in, as is making the performance emotes more about your character rather than about their music.

/rambling

[Nyr]

This can probably be simplified or expounded on, but I can identify about four types of bardic events.

• 1. Event focused around bardic performance -- regardless of city, this is an event where you'll have multiple bards performing.
• 2. Event in which bardic performance is a feature, but not a focus -- the event is something else, but you have a bard or bards or bardic wannabes assisting.
• 3. Event in which bards perform as a background artist -- the event has nothing to do with the bard, they are the background music guy/gal.
• 4. Impromptu performance by a bard -- regardless of locale, someone has a song they want to share.

Bardic performers (whether they are official or unofficial) need to be on the same page with everyone else.  Your role is entertainment, sure, but entertainment for whom?  It goes without saying that you should be enjoying this yourself, but you should also be aiming to provide enjoyment for others (players and staff).  What helps in this?

Brevity.  You are performing in a text-based venue.  We cannot hear how you sound; describe it, please--but do not take a long time to do that.  This often means writing out the text of your performance in advance, and then pasting it in, with a few key asides that you can change during a performance if warranted.  Leave space for people to read and react.  Typically, if your performance for one song lasts longer than ten minutes of real-life time, you are taking too long.

Understanding textual limitations. You can describe how well you are playing, but if your performance is an instrumental piece, this is potentially the most boring thing to observe, ever.  There's no wordplay, no puns, no humor, no real chance for audience participation or engagement in terms of IC or OOC. There's not even a poem or story for everyone to read at the same time and at the same pace--it's just you wanking about on guitar.  It works in real life if you're good; it does not work in-game.  If you're emoting a skillful performance and nothing else, then it reads like power-emotes from a solo roleplayer--no one can challenge how good you are because you're telling everyone how good you are with your emotes that they can't otherwise fault.

Exception:  when your performance is meant to be bad, or funny, and provokes amusement in some way--that's more okay!

Lyrics, on the other hand, are where you can communicate lots of things.  Humor, jokes, wordplay, even just well-constructed poems (if you're into that sort of thing, and hopefully at least decent at it).

Understanding your audience and event.  If this is Lord Hob-Nob's party and he asked you to do something for it, clarify what you are doing.  This goes for Lord Hob-Nob, too!  See the first two points:  brevity and textual limitations.

Suggestions for what you might do as an audience member:

• Find a way to enjoy yourself, even if you are not entertained overly much.  Your PC has an opinion about performances, or at least about people.  Act on it!
• While enjoying yourself, do not make yourself the main attraction of roleplay.  Understand that you are a part the OOC performance for all players and staff watching, but your PC is not the main attraction of the event or IC performance.
• The higher-ranking you are, the more cognizant you have to be about what you do.  Every word, thought, or feeling you display (or act upon) can serve to change and manipulate the performance, either disrupting it entirely or creating whole subplots of drama related to what you do.  I am not saying "don't react", more the opposite.  I am saying that it really helps to be aware of this--don't be oblivious to your effect on the roleplay ambience of the room.

[BadSkeelz]

Eh, I think I'll just skip the whole Bard thing and keep working on my combat emotes.

[bcw81]

I guess my problem is generally I only show up with characters who would enjoy Tuluki bardic music heh. I don't think I've shown up to many bardic shows with characters who wouldn't enjoy going.

Now, I'm at a bardic show full of emotes like....

"Obviously the product of years of practice the ivory-skinned bard girl strums her mandolin talentedly, sending forth pleasing notes into the crowd."

With a character who would appreciate said music. So....I suffer through it because it is IC'ly what should be done while my character comments on how fantastic her lyrics and music are.......when they really aren't.

Maybe I'll try showing up with that guy who doesn't belong there just to heckle. I can see that being very entertaining.  

Like what Moe said, it's pretty fucking hard to describe music with the English language. You also have the type who go all out describing just how their pitch is and their tone and their stumming and their everything. "The ivory tressed, tressy-ivory-skinned woman with red-striped-tresses strums the mandolin in a false staccato, vibrating the strings with all the falsetto of a musicwordhere."

I personally always look back to the Night Angels Triliogy when I write a song IG. There was one chapter, in I think the second book, where it talked about Aristarchos ban Ebron the bard and described how he could sing. It didn't use complicated music terms to describe how he sang, it didn't throw in the towel and just say he sang wonderfully. It used metaphor to describe how his music was just -so- perfect. It's been one of the literary works of music that I have actually enjoyed.

In all my years of playing arm, most of them in Tuluk, a lot of the performances are lackluster. Boring. They don't draw you in, they try to put an air of superiority on the signer. That shouldn't be. You aren't playing this game to win, you're playing to make it fun for everyone. (Including yourself, but still, don't try to win.)

Basically what I'm trying to say is bards - Simplify without making it simple. Use everyone around you, and don't just prance around for yourselves.

[Barzalene]

I don't like the poetry either. Its very good. The effort is admirable. We have very talented people. I would still like to opt out.

[Quell]

I don't like the poetry either. Its very good. The effort is admirable. We have very talented people. I would still like to opt out.

How much don't you like it?

If Templars decide to use a bard during an interrogation of your character, would they need consent?

[Quell]

One of these days I'm going to play a bard that asks "consent for torture?" before every performance.

[Malken]

I like the idea of having to skype your Guitar Hero performance live during a bardic RPT, just like I'd rather if all in-game fighting were now done via Mount & Blade.

[palomar]

In general, I've found that if I consider the bard interesting, their performances are also more likely to be interesting to attend. I especially enjoy when it's obvious the player has made a real effort and the outcome matches what could be expected of the PC. Having played a Circle bard PC myself, I will always appreciate any evident effort put into preparing performances or just playing a well-portrayed bard in general.

Go read those nice Aja Driamusek logs for inspiration.

[Majikal]

I don't think I've ever committed to a full bard, personally I was terrified of the idea. Tons of bards from the past or present are damn good and creative with their work. Unfortunately putting you're a badass flute player in your bio doesn't make you a badass flute player compared to some of these other awesome bards, so I've always been scared of the idea of trying.  

I like the performances, seeing what other players come up with, seeing how the events turn out and seeing what goes on in the crowd. Lots of layers, lots of things happening aside from someone just using the sing/recite command.

Props to those player who put in all that ooc time which translates to a 5min piece in the game.

[Delirium]

Playing a bard is exhausting and time-consuming on an OOC level, so I always feel bad heckling them when I'm on the other side of the stage.

It inevitably comes across as insulting the player's hard work rather than what's usually intended - which is to insult the character.

It's a tricky line to walk. Some people can do it. Most people prefer to zone out and then applaud at the appropriate time.

[KankWhisperer]

I'm the heckler.

[Desertman]

But when they suck and what they have written does suck and is boring....they should be heckled....and they shouldn't advance in or even be a part of their Circle.

It is my opinion that if you can't roleplay an entertaining bard that people actually enjoy being around when they perform....you shouldn't be able to succeed as a bard in game.

People shouldn't feel obligated by the IC culture or even by OOC sympathy to roleplay enjoying a shitty performance and people who can't come up with anything but boring shitty performances shouldn't be allowed in the Circles. They certainly should never advance in any way.

I think my biggest problem is being IC'ly and OOC'ly entertaining being two separate constructs instead of mutually inclusive constructs that are mandatory for IC advancement.  

I feel in order to advance IC'ly as an entertaining bard you should be required to be OOC'ly entertaining to watch as well. People shouldn't have to roleplay your talent that simply does not exist because you as the player aren't good at the role.

[Desertman]

With that being said, I would love to see some constructs put into the game that would allow the nobility and the Templarate of the north to show favor or disfavor towards bards after performances. I would also like to see documentation amended to ensure this favor isn't actually given to bards that aren't OOC'ly entertaining to these noble's and Templar's as players.

I would also like to see constructs put into the game that would allow for socially acceptable avenues for inked commoners to show bards favor or disfavor after performances.

A sort of IC equivalent of "booing" and "applauding" (even though this is already done) that is exclusive to the Tuluki "patrons of the arts" culture where people can subtly show their disfavor or favor publically after a performance and it is commonly accepted that they will face no repercussions.

I think the culture in general would become more attractive to play around on an OOC level if this were implemented. I also think it would improve bardic performances by allowing people to basically weed out the bad bards instead of having them not only stick around for IC years, but also advance in their Circles when they really aren't good bards.

It would also create some interesting feuds, jealousies, and vendettas or friendships between the bards based on the now commonly accepted and truthful opinions of the audiences they are all playing for.

In general, you mostly just see bards who are, for the most part...horrible to sit through, with a diamond in the rough stuck in every now and then, but they all get the same "praise" and "appreciation" for their hard work.

[bcw81]

With that being said, I would love to see some constructs put into the game that would allow the nobility and the Templarate of the north to show favor or disfavor towards bards after performances. I would also like to see documentation amended to ensure this favor isn't actually given to bards that aren't OOC'ly entertaining to these noble's and Templar's as players.

There already is to the bolded parts. Nobles and Templars can pass out bardic charms for good work.

[Desertman]

With that being said, I would love to see some constructs put into the game that would allow the nobility and the Templarate of the north to show favor or disfavor towards bards after performances. I would also like to see documentation amended to ensure this favor isn't actually given to bards that aren't OOC'ly entertaining to these noble's and Templar's as players.

There already is to the bolded parts. Nobles and Templars can pass out bardic charms for good work.

I am aware of this actually. What I meant is constructs beyond this, or perhaps having this construct more geared towards the last sentence you quoted there.

[Marauder Moe]

Good idea!  Some sort of formal social exchange between the bard and the noble where the bard receives currency, status, and promise of future exchanges.  Just need to think up a good name for it...

[Desertman]

Good idea!  Some sort of formal social exchange between the bard and the noble where the bard receives currency, status, and promise of future exchanges.  Just need to think up a good name for it...

*snicker*

Again, I'm aware that this sort of thing already exists. What I'm pushing for is to have a direct correlation between the bard's ability to be both IC'ly and OOC'ly entertaining as the dominant driving force behind this favor being awarded, instead of people just roleplaying they are entertaining because they "must be" because of "Circle training". Which happens a lot.

As well, it is less about the bard actually gaining the noble's or the Templar's favor and more about the public display of them being given favor or disfavor on the spot after their performances based on their performances. The societies in game, as well as the players of this game, work very much in a "trickle down" manner. If it is seen as acceptable for Templars and nobles to act a certain way publically, it is now ok for commoners to mimic that behavior publically and the behavior is now no longer shameful but also expected.

A sort of end to the, "You must appreciate their efforts even if they are bad.", mindset, enacted via the "lead by example" method.

[Marauder Moe]

Well, maybe we could try and find a way to screen bad bards/players from becoming circle members in the first place...

[Desertman]

Well, maybe we could try and find a way to screen bad bards/players from becoming circle members in the first place...

That is so much less fun than letting them fail in game based on their own merits. If they are bad, I want people to watch them fail and enjoy them failing. I also want people who WANT to play bad bards to have the chance to experience playing a bad one.

This is just as much about weeding out the bad bards as it is about promoting the good bards. If everyone is "good", then that is pretty boring as well in the sense of, "Well, it is was fun, but, wouldn't it have been fun to have a couple of bad ones to heckle and show disfavor to?".

I want the really good bards to feel a true sense of accomplishment and for them to be truly valued because there are plenty of "bad bards" out there for them to be judged against....even if they don't exist for very long/never rise up through the ranks.

It's not that I want bad bards to never exist. I want avenues for publically and acceptably letting them know they are indeed bad. If you aren't entertaining IRL, you stop getting gigs as an entertainer. If you aren't really entertaining in game, you can go right on to being a Seeker for years with everyone politely applauding and commenting on your hard earned talented abilities due your supreme Circle training....even though you suck.

[Barzalene]

Let's make all performances virtual, or FTB!

[Marauder Moe]

I mean... what more do you want?

You can fail circle auditions.
You can fail to attract a patron.
You can fail to get your patronage contract renewed.
You can fail to get the really good/prestigious/profitable gigs and commissions.
You can fail to get tips and praise.

[Desertman]

I mean... what more do you want?

You can fail circle auditions.
You can fail to attract a patron.
You can fail to get your patronage contract renewed.
You can fail to get the really good/prestigious/profitable gigs and commissions.
You can fail to get tips and praise.

I thought I explained it pretty well?

[Marauder Moe]

I guess I challenge the assertion that patrons and audiences don't take their own OOC amusement into account and I challenge the assertion that Circle membership is a guarantee of work or patronage.

[Desertman]

I guess I challenge the assertion that patrons and audiences don't take their own OOC amusement into account and I challenge the assertion that Circle membership is a guarantee of work or patronage.

I'm fine with that. I respect your opinion.

[RogueGunslinger]

So when I played in Poet's Circle for a little while () the staff heavily encouraged us to to pre-compose our performances so that we could just cut and paste them into the client command bar.  I think this helps a lot.

This isn't just good advice for Bards, I pre-write all sorts of interactions for all sorts of characters. Planning out how your pc will respond in certain situations and writing that down beforehand can be extremely fun, and extremely helpful. I write down their idioms, and things they say often. I write down their plans and how they might react if plans don't do accordingly, or if they do. It's just extremely helpful for getting into my character, and knowing how should act..

[Centurion]

I think bards are scared to fail, or make a mistake. They tend to perform for important PC's, and the player often wants to progress up the ladder, so if they fail something simple in a song, -everyone- is going to make fun of them, or they might not get work any more, because people tend to react in an extreme way to simple things. That's often boredom, or not knowing any better.

Think about it in RL, your pub performers? Most of the time these people are skilled enough that they perform rather well, and you don't notice mistakes (well I don't, cause I'd be drunk and struggling to hear over the noise), but being text, small mistakes stand out as some people tend to read everything. If your in the Circle, as even an apprentice, I estimate you've had quite a lot of experience already. I would still like to see mistakes however, here and there.

Do you want to tell a bard they are bad? Would it be like telling a recruit of the Legion you suck as a soldier? Obviously higher social caste people could get away with it... If you don't like it, would it be wise to just only tell your friends behind closed doors?

I get what D-Man is saying though, for me up until now, many bard performances have been boring to me as a person, but would be interesting to my character. That changed recently. I was actually quite blown away, and on the edge of my seat.

[Delirium]

hemote is your friend!

[CodeMaster]

It would be interesting if performing as a bard had some kind of code and consequence associated with it.  Many of the other player professions on Zalanthas (pickpocket, combatant, grebber) do.

For example if instrument objects could be 'use'd and had some kind of failrate associated with agility, age, encumbrance, how well-rested your character is, maybe some instrument-playing skill, and the length of the action emote .

Code Select Expand


> use guitar [carefully plucking along]
You play your bone guitar, carefully plucking along.


Code Select Expand


> use guitar (finger-picking like a maniac while rolling around on the floor)
You attempt to play, but one of your bone guitar's strings breaks!
A sour resonance lingers.


Auditioning for the Circle would then be a bit of an exciting nailbiter, like "auditioning" for the arena in Allanak.

[BadSkeelz]

Make all bardic competitions beat-boxing events, where bards wade into the crowds boxing and beating the shit out of random attendees. Then combat code can be used to judge the bard's effectiveness.

[boog]

No.

Absolutely not to the code. Playing a bard (I've played 2) is disturbingly hard work on an OOC level. You're basically letting people read what you write, personally, on a weirdly more intimate level than just playing the game with them. If I had to rely on code for that, I'd be so super pissed!

People have failed auditions before. Trust and believe. And I think Moe's consequences for sucking are more than appropriate. What more do you want? If your bard sucks, bam, you're not gonna advance far.

Also, if this were a free-style event, I would win. See: Crashing Teamspeak with my sick repetition of, "Oh No," by Mos Def, Nate Dogg and Pharoahe Monch as a reference.

[nauta]

It would be interesting if performing as a bard had some kind of code and consequence associated with it.  Many of the other player professions on Zalanthas (pickpocket, combatant, grebber) do.

For example if instrument objects could be 'use'd and had some kind of failrate associated with agility, age, encumbrance, how well-rested your character is, maybe some instrument-playing skill, and the length of the action emote .

Code Select Expand


> use guitar [carefully plucking along]
You play your bone guitar, carefully plucking along.


Code Select Expand


> use guitar (finger-picking like a maniac while rolling around on the floor)
You attempt to play, but one of your bone guitar's strings breaks!
A sour resonance lingers.


Auditioning for the Circle would then be a bit of an exciting nailbiter, like "auditioning" for the arena in Allanak.

With a few PCs I've wanted a CUSTOM skill (or several) that starts at novice and advances like other skills, but it gets associated with a certain command, e.g., 'custom' which you would execute whenever you do something that codedly isn't available in the game but still a skill, e.g., juggling, playing a guitar, singing, getting an erection.  You'd have to assign the skill at the beginning of your PCs life, of course, and couldn't switch it around or it'd be pointless.  Hence, you could then tell if you fail or succeed at a juggle attempt or a singing attempt and RP it out accordingly.  Maybe this wouldn't work like technically or conceptually, and maybe it doesn't make sense.  The neat thing is - I mean you could just role a die or decide OOC if you fail - is that it would use the coded skill progression.

[slvrmoontiger]

I'm not working to really respond to anyone in particular just giving my 2 'sids worth here.

1) I think the last performance that I saw that both myself and my character enjoyed was a play done around the time of the end of the Grey Hunt (I think it was just before the winner was announced). I found this play to be interesting and moving and I had fun with it.
2) Many characters of mine have been to bardic performances where I and the PC have enjoyed only a certain bard/bards/bardess/bardesses performances. In these cases my PC made comments about those performances they enjoyed and those they didn't enjoy in the context and setting that other PCs heard both the positive and negative comments. I don't believe any of my PCs have ever "pretended" to like an event that they did not. I remember in some cases I had PCs get in quite heated arguments when they didn't like a certain performance.
3) I have been to performances that my PCs didn't like and even walked out on a couple here and there because my PCs hated them.

I feel it's more fun to stick to how my PC or I actually feel than to just go along with something because of fear of disagreeing with people.

Note: I have never played a bard before, however have had characters that were approached to audition. It's just never been something I cared to do. I have played characters that like to sing/dance/play instruments and never have want to be a bard and never had problems with The Circle coming down on or threatening those characters to stop even in cases where many enjoyed the performances.

[MeTekillot]

It would be interesting if performing as a bard had some kind of code and consequence associated with it.  Many of the other player professions on Zalanthas (pickpocket, combatant, grebber) do.

For example if instrument objects could be 'use'd and had some kind of failrate associated with agility, age, encumbrance, how well-rested your character is, maybe some instrument-playing skill, and the length of the action emote .

Code Select Expand


> use guitar [carefully plucking along]
You play your bone guitar, carefully plucking along.


Code Select Expand


> use guitar (finger-picking like a maniac while rolling around on the floor)
You attempt to play, but one of your bone guitar's strings breaks!
A sour resonance lingers.


Auditioning for the Circle would then be a bit of an exciting nailbiter, like "auditioning" for the arena in Allanak.

With a few PCs I've wanted a CUSTOM skill (or several) that starts at novice and advances like other skills, but it gets associated with a certain command, e.g., 'custom' which you would execute whenever you do something that codedly isn't available in the game but still a skill, e.g., juggling, playing a guitar, singing, getting an erection.  You'd have to assign the skill at the beginning of your PCs life, of course, and couldn't switch it around or it'd be pointless.  Hence, you could then tell if you fail or succeed at a juggle attempt or a singing attempt and RP it out accordingly.  Maybe this wouldn't work like technically or conceptually, and maybe it doesn't make sense.  The neat thing is - I mean you could just role a die or decide OOC if you fail - is that it would use the coded skill progression.

i'd use it for mudsex.

[CodeMaster]

It would be interesting if performing as a bard had some kind of code and consequence associated with it.  Many of the other player professions on Zalanthas (pickpocket, combatant, grebber) do.

For example if instrument objects could be 'use'd and had some kind of failrate associated with agility, age, encumbrance, how well-rested your character is, maybe some instrument-playing skill, and the length of the action emote .

Code Select Expand


> use guitar [carefully plucking along]
You play your bone guitar, carefully plucking along.


Code Select Expand


> use guitar (finger-picking like a maniac while rolling around on the floor)
You attempt to play, but one of your bone guitar's strings breaks!
A sour resonance lingers.


Auditioning for the Circle would then be a bit of an exciting nailbiter, like "auditioning" for the arena in Allanak.

With a few PCs I've wanted a CUSTOM skill (or several) that starts at novice and advances like other skills, but it gets associated with a certain command, e.g., 'custom' which you would execute whenever you do something that codedly isn't available in the game but still a skill, e.g., juggling, playing a guitar, singing, getting an erection.  You'd have to assign the skill at the beginning of your PCs life, of course, and couldn't switch it around or it'd be pointless.  Hence, you could then tell if you fail or succeed at a juggle attempt or a singing attempt and RP it out accordingly.  Maybe this wouldn't work like technically or conceptually, and maybe it doesn't make sense.  The neat thing is - I mean you could just role a die or decide OOC if you fail - is that it would use the coded skill progression.

I agree boog it was probably not the best idea for bards across the board...

But yeah nauta, that would be really cool.  In fact, I bet most clients could be scripted to add a self-imposed skill to your character (like your suggestions, juggling, singing, guitar, walking on hands, etc).

One could even wildly powergame those skills up like a maniac, and no-one would be the wiser. 

[Inks]

It's annoying when you are having a conversation and a bard starts playing then you have to wait till they finish. Music should be a coded skill that ruins listen checks at high levels, also.

Also nosave bard.

[RogueGunslinger]

Why would you have to stop your conversation?

[CodeMaster]

A related thread from some years ago (starting on a page that has a bit to do with this thread):

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php?topic=21124.65

[CodeMaster]

I just remembered that one of the interesting things about Ellis's "American Psycho" is how unserious the entire book is...

For instance the protagonist's musical tastes are completely backwards ("wrong" by convention) but you'd only really key into the absurdity of his opinions on music if you were familiar with 80s pop icons.

He does the same thing with designer suits (he actually confessed this in an interview, saying something like: if you know anything about fashion, you'd realize how ridiculous some of the suits the characters are wearing).  When I found out about this I went back through the book and discovered a few "clown suits" here and there, but I never picked up on them while I was reading through the first time.

The whole book is actually totally hilarious if you're in on the joke.  I also liked it when he momentarily mistook Gay Pride Day for Halloween.

Where was I going with this?  Oh yeah... If you know a thing or two about music, and wanted to be an elitist snob , you could describe complete cacophony in elegant musical terms. Few people would be the wiser, but it would probably be hilarious for them.

[Xalle]

I want to expand some people's idea of what the Circle is and help shift it way from its elitism being seen as 'posh' and snooty.

It isn't just singing and playing an instrument, and an occasional play. There are lots of 'arts' in Tuluk that bards could be skilled in, the art of politics, shadow arts, visual arts, satire and so on. What defines a good 'performance' doesn't need to be contained within singing and playing . As long as they contribute to the Circle's agenda and are loyal citizens. They also have a whole Circle dedicated to lore of the Known world too – who knows what they've picked up and collected over the years. The Circle has been around and open to players since Old Tuluk. That's such a rich resource! The bards are also great people to help organise events, as managing social situations is what they train to do.

It's not surprising people have been seeing bards as just singers and musicians. The current clan documentation is a bit too weighted on the singing and playing atm, and virtual arcs of learning that don't have much application actually IG. They rely too much on subjectivity, and make bards easy to dismiss as a whole just because reading a song or poem isn't to your taste. We're looking at all that, and hoping to flesh out the clan a bit more.

[Marauder Moe]

Definitely agree that Circle bards should have very diverse skillsets, and the documentation reflected that pretty well.

But I also got the sense that they are bards first, and while it's not impossible to pass an audition on non-musical performance alone, it will be held against you.  (This doesn't seem unreasonable to me.)

[Down Under]

Yeah, they're bards after all.

[Patuk]

Bard is not synonymous with musician. If it were to be held against you if what you were putting on was a show of making a handkerchief vanish that'd be one thing, but storytelling should be more important still than music, IMO.

[Down Under]

Maybe as important, not more.

[Delirium]

My not-so-humble opinion, from experience playing bards:

In a text-based setting, the ability to storytell is the most ability in anyone who wants to play a bard who people enjoy.

The "music" is tertiary - the ability to write good prose and stories, and engage your audience is crucial.

The ability to politik and judge the timing of a performance, and to create a performance based on a specific goal your patron has, are also crucial.

If you're not good at it, then you can play someone who is working on achieving that, and learn alongside your character. But that should be the milestone you're aiming for, rather than attempting to be the best at writing flowery emotes describing your musical abilities (for, though some people appreciate those, it won't win you the crowd).

[HavokBlue]

I had a laugh today in the first day of audio production class when my professor had us spend thirty minutes figuring out how to describe different sounds to a deaf person, using only words.

Reminded me of this thread. The conclusion we came to is that it's A ) hard and B ) not something anyone else will really understand or care about unless they've also been educated in the relevant terminology.

[Patuk]

Maybe as important, not more.

Why?

[Down Under]

Maybe as important, not more.

Why?

Because there is a tradition in the Poet's Circle of bards being multi-talented, with an emphasis on music/musical instruments. Storytelling is an important tradition in the Circle as well, but I wouldn't say it is 'more' important, unless you mean from an OOC standpoint?

[Patuk]

I genuinely think that, from an IC perspective, it makes more sense for the Circle to be more focused on storytelling, yes. This is taking into account the kind of civilisations Zalanthas has and the disparity in the skill of storytelling and music in general. I also think OOCly storytelling should be of more import, yes, but despite that, it makes very good sense for the circles to want to focus on storytelling.

[Down Under]

The reason I could see Storytelling as being quite important, is it's an illiterate society -- So oral tradition must be incredibly strong.

It might be interesting if the Poet's Circle shifted from focus on music, to focus on lore-keeping and storytelling, epic poems and the like.

[Patuk]

That is exactly my point, yes.

[Barzalene]

Yes!

[Rathustra]

Play an Irofel bard and let the other circles do their things.