Equipment Comparison

[aeglaeca]

So, I completely get why there aren't any numbered stats to equipment, but I have a bit of trouble telling if the gear I'm currently using is better or worse than what I'm looking at. It would be kind of nice to have a 'compare x y' command to tell the following:

* x feels (much/slightly) lighter/heavier than y.
* x looks (much/slightly) flimsier/sturdier than y. (If this is related to weight, then, uh, I guess it's not necessary, but I'm not aware of whether or not it is. Otherwise it's just for how much damage it can take before it needs to be repaired?)
* x looks like it is (much/slightly) more/less protective than y. (For actual effective armor?)
* x looks to be (much/slightly) higher/lower quality than y. (I have no idea if this is actually a thing, either.)

For weapons:

* x seems (much/slightly) easier/harder to swing than y. (For speed?)
* x seems like it will do (much/slightly) more/less damage than y. (For damage.)

The much/slightly thing is optional. Being able to compare armor to some extent would be really nice, though.

[MeTekillot]

Generally, the way a thing looks will give away quite a bit of how effective/sturdy/protective/damaging. Value isn't quite such an indicator, since something encrusted with sapphires can hit like a paper fan if it's not actually sharp.

[slvrmoontiger]

Just like MeTekillot said. Look at it. Usually it will give in indication to it's protectiveness for armor or its usability and damage for a weapon. Some of the things you mention actually fall in line with skills that some guilds get. Also, for weight on weapons usually you can tell if it's too heavy by using assess -v, it also may give indications of other uses for the weapon you are looking at.

[BadSkeelz]

Valuing a weapon and armor will give a good idea as to weight.

[wizturbo]

Just like MeTekillot said. Look at it. Usually it will give in indication to it's protectiveness for armor or its usability and damage for a weapon. Some of the things you mention actually fall in line with skills that some guilds get. Also, for weight on weapons usually you can tell if it's too heavy by using assess -v, it also may give indications of other uses for the weapon you are looking at.

While looking at a weapon or piece of armor can give you hints, ultimately they will not reveal the coded power of the item.  While this is a roleplaying game, the code is used to determine all kinds of critical things...life and death matters, generally.  There are items with descriptions that say a helmet provide great protection, but one helmet might provide significantly more.  Veteran players know this from long experience, new players do not, and have no coded way of finding this out short of doing empirical tests in a roleplaying focused game.  Having a coded way to compare the quality of an items coded strengths and weaknesses seems like creating a level playing field in allowing characters to make choices with their equipment, and also provide a useful and interesting skill for merchants, weapon or armor connoisseurs, or other interested parties.  If this coded ability highlights items that are unrealistically strong or weak, then i'm assuming its not very hard for the staff to make tweaks to fix that (which should be done anyway, right?).

This will also strengthen the economy of the game.  If an indie trading company figures out how to make a superior arrow to that of House Salarr, it will be reflected in the code and recognized by those with the skills to see such things, and that indie trading company will get additional business for very IC reasons (supported by code).  That indie trading company will probably also get some additional "interaction" with House Salarr (of the murder, corruption and betrayal variety), which is also good for the game.  As it stands right now, that new arrow may or may not ever be recognized as superior, so the internal motivations for all that roleplay are never fully cultivated.

While I can definitely see how this will cause some troubles, I think the benefits outweigh the harm by a large margin.

[nauta]

Just like MeTekillot said. Look at it. Usually it will give in indication to it's protectiveness for armor or its usability and damage for a weapon. Some of the things you mention actually fall in line with skills that some guilds get. Also, for weight on weapons usually you can tell if it's too heavy by using assess -v, it also may give indications of other uses for the weapon you are looking at.

While looking at a weapon or piece of armor can give you hints, ultimately they will not reveal the coded power of the item.  While this is a roleplaying game, the code is used to determine all kinds of critical things...life and death matters, generally.  There are items with descriptions that say a helmet provide great protection, but one helmet might provide significantly more.  Veteran players know this from long experience, new players do not, and have no coded way of finding this out short of doing empirical tests in a roleplaying focused game.  Having a coded way to compare the quality of an items coded strengths and weaknesses seems like creating a level playing field in allowing characters to make choices with their equipment, and also provide a useful and interesting skill for merchants, weapon or armor connoisseurs, or other interested parties.  If this coded ability highlights items that are unrealistically strong or weak, then i'm assuming its not very hard for the staff to make tweaks to fix that (which should be done anyway, right?).

This will also strengthen the economy of the game.  If an indie trading company figures out how to make a superior arrow to that of House Salarr, it will be reflected in the code and recognized by those with the skills to see such things, and that indie trading company will get additional business for very IC reasons (supported by code).  That indie trading company will probably also get some additional "interaction" with House Salarr (of the murder, corruption and betrayal variety), which is also good for the game.  As it stands right now, that new arrow may or may not ever be recognized as superior, so the internal motivations for all that roleplay are never fully cultivated.

Well put!  On the other hand, leaving things vague creates an environment where people wear what they want for outlandishly weird reasons (myth, lore, outright lies), which I like.  If the skill were left in the hands of the few we could still have this, best of both worlds.

[RogueGunslinger]

Armor and weapons have no consistency to their stats. Don't think about it and just use whatever looks coolest. The ranges between them aren't even that big. If the reason you lose a fight come down to your armor and weapons you should have flee'd already.

[wizturbo]

Well put!  On the other hand, leaving things vague creates an environment where people wear what they want for outlandishly weird reasons (myth, lore, outright lies), which I like.  If the skill were left in the hands of the few we could still have this, best of both worlds.

I think people will wear whatever they like anyway.  Sure, some martially minded characters will seek out the best items for whatever their combat style is...but there's nothing really wrong with that.  That's what many soldiers have done throughout history.  Just make sure the highest quality items are obtained through realistic channels, so that quest for superior equipment creates the right kind of economy.  As long as the 50 sid starter spear isn't codedly superior to the 5,000 mastercrafted hunting spear built to be a killing machine, I think things will work out reasonably well.

[slvrmoontiger]

Armor and weapons have no consistency to their stats. Don't think about it and just use whatever looks coolest. The ranges between them aren't even that big. If the reason you lose a fight come down to your armor and weapons you should have flee'd already.

This is so true. You shouldn't hanging around until last minute to flee, unless your PC is suicidal that is.

[IntuitiveApathy]

Just like MeTekillot said. Look at it. Usually it will give in indication to it's protectiveness for armor or its usability and damage for a weapon. Some of the things you mention actually fall in line with skills that some guilds get. Also, for weight on weapons usually you can tell if it's too heavy by using assess -v, it also may give indications of other uses for the weapon you are looking at.

While looking at a weapon or piece of armor can give you hints, ultimately they will not reveal the coded power of the item.  While this is a roleplaying game, the code is used to determine all kinds of critical things...life and death matters, generally.  There are items with descriptions that say a helmet provide great protection, but one helmet might provide significantly more.  Veteran players know this from long experience, new players do not, and have no coded way of finding this out short of doing empirical tests in a roleplaying focused game.  Having a coded way to compare the quality of an items coded strengths and weaknesses seems like creating a level playing field in allowing characters to make choices with their equipment, and also provide a useful and interesting skill for merchants, weapon or armor connoisseurs, or other interested parties.  If this coded ability highlights items that are unrealistically strong or weak, then i'm assuming its not very hard for the staff to make tweaks to fix that (which should be done anyway, right?).

This will also strengthen the economy of the game.  If an indie trading company figures out how to make a superior arrow to that of House Salarr, it will be reflected in the code and recognized by those with the skills to see such things, and that indie trading company will get additional business for very IC reasons (supported by code).  That indie trading company will probably also get some additional "interaction" with House Salarr (of the murder, corruption and betrayal variety), which is also good for the game.  As it stands right now, that new arrow may or may not ever be recognized as superior, so the internal motivations for all that roleplay are never fully cultivated.

While I can definitely see how this will cause some troubles, I think the benefits outweigh the harm by a large margin.

This is something I've wished for, for a long time.

Optionally to refine the "compare" skill beyond a boolean success, and to avoid limiting it to only a specific class or classes which would undermine the point of implementing it in the first place, you could have it interact with the expertise of the character doing the comparing as well.  So if the character was a master at slashing weapons, or a master weaponsmith, their prediction would be more accurate as to just how good that sword is compared to another, compared to a novice's assessment.  In addition, or in the alternative, you could also restrict the compare skill to only work for those who have a coded skill related to the item, or have attained a certain skill level.  I'd assume the latter would be a whole lot of work though, to add these sort of inter-relations to the huge amount of items in-game.  Still, either of these refinements might go some ways toward mitigating some of the downsides, while still retaining the ideal utility for the skill.

[wizturbo]

Armor and weapons have no consistency to their stats. Don't think about it and just use whatever looks coolest. The ranges between them aren't even that big. If the reason you lose a fight come down to your armor and weapons you should have flee'd already.

I think you're missing the point.  This isn't about winning or losing a fight, it's about creating a realistic world.  Some items are straight up better than others.  People with skill should know this.  Superior equipment wins fights, and should be coveted over inferior quality goods.  Sure, some characters might choose not to using that superior item for whatever reason, it could be too flashy, or they might prefer to be underestimated, but if they're skilled enough to know what to look for they should be able to say which would be better in a fight.  Whether or not that's codedly true isn't relevant, but roleplaying decisions should be based on such things.  Right now it's extremely subjective, largely determined by the writing ability of the person creating the description of the item.  

[wizturbo]

accidentally duplicated my post - ignore

[RogueGunslinger]

Armor and weapons have no consistency to their stats. Don't think about it and just use whatever looks coolest. The ranges between them aren't even that big. If the reason you lose a fight come down to your armor and weapons you should have flee'd already.

I think you're missing the point.  This isn't about winning or losing a fight, it's about creating a realistic world.  Some items are straight up better than others.  People with skill should know this.  Superior equipment wins fights, and should be coveted over inferior quality goods.  Whether or not that's codedly true isn't relevant, but roleplaying decisions should be based on such things.  Right now it's extremely subjective, largely determined by the ability of the person writing the description of the item.  

Eh, I don't think realism is the issue at hand here. If anything real life is MORE subjective than reading descriptions and comparing items based off of that or the materials it was made from.

In real life can you tell me what weapon is "better"? An iron short sword, or a hard-wood spear with an iron tip? Well, one is great for close combat, with a shield, and the other is better for hunting, or keeping your opponent it a distance. But compared to each-other, which is better in a fight? Which one is more deadly? The answer is subjective, and couldn't at all me summarized by "* x seems like it will do (much/slightly) more/less damage than y." And the problem gets even more obscure when you're comparing more similar items. Which is better, a Gladius or a Falchion? Which does more damage and has more speed?

In real life weapon/armor advantages come from many, many factors. It's a much more complicated ordeal than Iron hits harder than Bronze, or that bone is more protective than leather. I'm fine with players not knowing what item is better based simply on a look, because that in itself is unrealistic. It's more than just a factor of what material it is, but also the design, thickness, mobility and a million other things that shouldn't be able to be summed up with a simple assess skill.

The same could be said of armor. Is weighing yourself down with plate armor more "protective" than a full set of leathers? Not to the fellow who stands back keeps distance and jabs at you with a spear while your tire out. Not to the fellow carrying around a crossbow. Not to the fighter skilled with a rapier.

There are items in game described as crudely made, other that are painstakingly crafted and "well balanced", and I think that's more than enough an indication as to how you should compare them to other items. Anything further isn't for realism, it's for knowledge, and that knowledge is usually attained in practice and through use, not by simply looking at something. Which is how the game currently works.

[Qzzrbl]

Basically what you're looking for in a description is what material it's made of.

It's a safe bet to assume that a silt-horror shell cuirass will soak up more hurt than a beetle-shell breastplate, no matter how well-written and "protective-looking" the beetle-shell's description.

It's also a safe assumption that a wooden helmet will do a better job than a leather hood at keeping your eggs from getting scrambled when someone breaks out a hammer.

That aside, differences between armors of the same material are really not that huge at all. Most fights are won by who lands the first reel when going toe-to-toe at higher skill levels anyhow.

Arguably, when rocks glued to a length of leather can be considered armor, skill becomes a bigger factor in winning a fight, opposed to equipment.

[IntuitiveApathy]

Eh, I don't think realism is the issue at hand here. If anything real life is MORE subjective than reading descriptions and comparing items based off of that or the materials it was made from.

In real life can you tell me what weapon is "better"? An iron short sword, or a hard-wood spear with an iron tip? Well, one is great for close combat, with a shield, and the other is better for hunting, or keeping your opponent it a distance. But compared to each-other, which is better in a fight? Which one is more deadly? The answer is subjective, and couldn't at all me summarized by "* x seems like it will do (much/slightly) more/less damage than y." And the problem gets even more obscure when you're comparing more similar items. Which is better, a Gladius or a Falchion? Which does more damage and has more speed?

In real life weapon/armor advantages come from many, many factors. It's a much more complicated ordeal than Iron hits harder than Bronze, or that bone is more protective than leather. I'm fine with players not knowing what item is better based simply on a look, because that in itself is unrealistic. It's more than just a factor of what material it is, but also the design, thickness, mobility and a million other things that shouldn't be able to be summed up with a simple assess skill.

The same could be said of armor. Is weighing yourself down with plate armor more "protective" than a full set of leathers? Not to the fellow who stands back keeps distance and jabs at you with a spear while your tire out. Not to the fellow carrying around a crossbow. Not to the fighter skilled with a rapier.

There are items in game described as crudely made, other that are painstakingly crafted and "well balanced", and I think that's more than enough an indication as to how you should compare them to other items. Anything further isn't for realism, it's for knowledge, and that knowledge is usually attained in practice and through use, not by simply looking at something. Which is how the game currently works.

Right, but I don't think anyone's suggesting it'll just be a blanket "this helmet is better than that helmet".  The various factors could be laid out in the information spit out, much like how the OP was asking about various different attributes, and then the character could decide for themselves.  The knowledge reflected through practice could be taken care of by my prior suggestion about tying it to a character's relevant skill level.

[Malken]

Also, don't forget the smell sniff command.

You can learn a lot about how powerful or weak a weapon is by its smell.

Apparently it's sniff and not smell. Someone just sniffed their sword to see how powerful it is and she corrected me.

[valeria]

I think being able to compare general characteristics would be fine.  It should go off your 'value' skill.  That is, merchants or characters with value (usually crafters) should be better at that kind of thing than Amos Bynner.

If you read the OP you'll notice it doesn't suggest telling you which is the better weapon.  Just which looks heavier, higher quality, etc.  And no, in the long run of combat, it probably doesn't matter.  But I think you should be able to hold a shield in each hand and figure out which one is heavier, or shake your argosy's tires a little and figure out if it's more wobby.

[slvrmoontiger]

I just see this as being a hard thing to do codedly. I'm not saying it's a bad idea. I agree some aspects should go off the value skill, however some should take into account your weapons skill. If you have a master in slashing weapons, you should be well versed with swords and know how to tell better made ones over weaker made.

[James de Monet]

I feel like there used to be a "compare" command, a long time ago.  I could be mistaken.

As I recall, it was taken out because people min/maxing their gear is sort of obvious, and distracting, and not terribly realistic.  You say that's what people do, but...it kind of isn't.  People use what they like the feel of, the look of, not what has the more functional piercing angle on the point.

And if that IS what your character would do...why not just do it based on their experience?

[IntuitiveApathy]

As I recall, it was taken out because people min/maxing their gear is sort of obvious, and distracting, and not terribly realistic.  You say that's what people do, but...it kind of isn't.  People use what they like the feel of, the look of, not what has the more functional piercing angle on the point.

No reason why you couldn't still have your character do that sort of thing, even if this kind of command was put in.  What your character views as an important attribute doesn't have to be one of the functional, it could be cultural, aesthetic, etc.  This sort of command would just enable you as the player on an OOC level to better line up what the character IC would presumably have knowledge of regarding the item.  One example of this currently in-game is how value can provide the origin of the make of the item.

And if that IS what your character would do...why not just do it based on their experience?

What if your character had experience/teaching/etc with different items prior to your playing it?  What if they do virtually on their off-time?  How do you reconcile this IC knowledge with your OOC lack of knowledge?

I think this is less of an issue for veteran players who have had the opportunity to, on an OOC level, try out the massive variety of different items over time across different sorts of characters.  

This disconnect with IC/OOC isn't limited to what items are better than items, of course.  But if we could lessen the steep learning curve of the game with this sort of accessibility change, I think it would prove to be of some worth to helping to retain newer players.  It'd be a nice convenience for everyone else, as well.

[FantasyWriter]

I've been playing for almost nine years.
I don't have a clue about what weapons or armor is better than others.
As random as our combat system can be, I don't see how it could be done with any reliability.

You go out with armor set A and a buffer than average scrab and a shitty set of rolls on your part has you fleeing after four rounds.
You go out with armor set B and a weaker than average scrab and good set of rolls on your part has you getting nicked and scraped after 20 rounds.
Armor set B is not necessarily better than armor set A, but you can afford its cost, its weight, and it looks sexy as hell.  Winner winner, erdlu dinner.