The Economy of Items

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I wonder if part of the problem [of petty theft being answered with violence] might be that items in Zalanthas are both very expensive and also practically indestructible. People are used to buying all their sweet gear and then never needing to replace it. If armor and weapons wore out more, people would need to replace it more, Merchants wouldn't need to charge so much for it, and thievery would become part of a more natural attrition rate.

This was originally brought up in the how to make stealing more fun  thread as a potential way to fix the almost OOC level of attachment some characters have with their gear. (I'm sure it's been brought up elsewhere as well, but alas I'm not the GDB rolodex known as Nyr.) Whether or not it's effective or necessary in that capacity, the idea does warrant some interesting discussion on its own.

Are items too expensive? Would they the economy of the game benefit from increased degradation of items? I'll provide my thoughts to each in turn. (Note: My comments are going to apply mainly to hunter/fighter types, since I don't really play non-combats and I have no idea what you people spend your money on.)

Are items too expensive? Too cheap?
To answer the first question, I personally think the prices of items are about right, for the most part. It's tough to say a thing is or is not too expensive, because while it may be laughably cheap to a 10 day character, it still has to be accessible to a 1 hour character who won't have nearly as much access to coins or good trade deals as his older counterpart. Generally a decent desert cloak will cost you 100-150, a good piece of head, neck, or body armor 250-500. And that seems to be about appropriate, as it's about all a starting character can afford, and even then you have to do some budgeting and saving to get kitted up. But on the whole this is a good price range to make the game playable, but not too easy.... at least for the first 5 days.

Now, while most things are reasonably priced, there are some items that are just crazy outliers. To put furnish examples, you have things like climbing spikes (a piece of bone and some leather, strapped to the ankle) which sell, last time I checked, for 1000 coins each! Another great example were the cutting bracers, back before they were all removed from the game. Most of them were glorified gauntlets with claws stuck on them, and they would sell for thousands and people would murder each other over them because, while they were completely mundane and cheap from an RP perspective, they offered code benefits. Contrasting these non-sensibly inflated items, you have things like dragon-carved sword and waraxes, gem-encrusted swords, or spears with effigies of entire armies carved into the handles, which are selling for between 300-500 coins. On the other hand, I've seen mastercraft weapons with much less apparent artistry or adornment that sell for closer to 10k sid. Crazy outliers.

I mention these because they're generally sought after by players in the 10+ days played range who have the necessary access to funds. They're sought because they offer coded benefits, higher damage (or damage resistance), because they look fancy, or simply because they're rare and can be shown off. (Ala masks, the bane of my existence.) I also mention these, because it's a pet peeve of mine that such high caliber items are so readily available to virtually any player that can live past the 10 day marker. When you see common mercenaries or hunters running around with exquisitely crafted weapons, 2k breastplates made of materials imported from the other side of the known, 4k bows, etc.... it really makes you wonder if the economy's functioning the way it ought to be.

Now, I understand that most of the players with that much EQ aren't buying it from the local NPC at full price, but rather have invested time creating interpersonal relationships with crafters and merchants, or have become employed with Salarr, or whatever the case may be to subsidize this (by appearance) top shelf gear. But all the same, it seems nuts to me that people would buy these sorts of items, at any price, and then just wear them carelessly into any fight. Historically, I very much doubt that even kings took jewel encrusted weapons into battle. They simply weren't made for it. Even a steel longsword needed to be resharpened, or even re-forged, between battles because, unlike in the movies, afterwards it was dinged all to hell. I doubt very much that even a king would've taken a gem encrusted, intricately-carved sword into battle. These are show weapons in the hands of peasants. And this is Zalanthas, where the peasants are poorer, and the weapons are made of much more fragile material than steel.

Would the game benefit from increased wear / tear to items?
I believe it would.

Some items, like shields, degrade rather quickly. I've seen shields go from mint-condition, to "used" in a single f*ing fight. (This is actually kind of accurate - many medieval shields were only made to last for one battle / joust / dual.) Armor has a fair level of wear. If you're in a sparring clan, chances are you have to get something repaired every week - or every day if you're sparring dwarves. Weapons rarely break. The only character I've had that broke weapons with any level of regularity was an AI strength dwarf, and even then he only broke maybe 5 in 10 days played. Now, I'm not a big fan of the way weapons just break out of the blue. I think they should degrade the way armor does (going from new to used to cracked or whatever.) But I do think they should wear down and break over time.

I think this would benefit the game for a number of reasons. For one, it would nicely fix my personal peeve of rangers sniping jozhals with their diamond encrusted, full-giant dong, silk strung recurve trebuchets. But if pleasing me isn't convincing enough to you, (I'm not mad - just disappointed) it would also make the world grittier and harsher and all that stuff they have in an <h1> on the main page. Having weapons and armor that actually wears down and brakes would reserve elite goods for players that either a) could actually, realistically afford to waste coins on that sort of thing, or b) was rich and just wore it for show. (Nobles, Templars, etc.)

The other benefit this would have, is that it would give 20+ day characters things to spend their money on other than rent, some who-gives-a-fuck silk whatever, or a personal assassination. I feel that the average long-lived character's life plays out like this:

Days 1 - 5   : Get a job, get a full set of gear, grind skills, try to mudsex.
Days 5 - 20 : Replace old gear with good gear, grind skills, try to mudsex.
Days 20 - 30 : Replace good gear with great gear, grind skills, succeed at mudsex!
Days 30 + : Skills are plateau'd, bought all the gear I'll ever need, now all there is to do is wear masks to the bar like some kind of asshole, and mudsex.

My last 20+ day character died with like 10k in the bank and nothing to spend it on, which was frankly almost hard to play since I was trying to be a grizzled, kicked-tok peasant.

I truly feel that upping the wear/tear to armor and applying wear/tear code to weapons (and other gear) would make sid worth more since you now have to pay upkeep on the items you own. It would make the world a bit more realistic, because the average byn Trooper wouldn't be wielding the same weapons and armor as the average Templar. If you want to buy a 2k helmet, be prepared to buy one again next year...

[Rokal]

I think the prices are good but equipment should wear out/require more maintenence (possible sid sink to pay for repairs from those who can - creates a new economic venture there)

Like you said, Jack. its not hard to have a lot of money saved up with nothing to spend it on, i think at the current prices, with more wear and tear on gear, it'd steady out, and keep the economy fresh.

[MeTekillot]

I think items are as expensive as they are as a patch for them never wearing out the way they should.

[CodeMaster]

I voted for prices are good, but items could get worn out faster.

This is just spitballing, but I wonder if a good pilot study could involve the wearing out of boots items.  They don't tend to be vital pieces of armor, so experimenting with them wouldn't impact anyone too much.

What I'm imagining is something like: every room, depending on the terrain type, your boots could have a small chance of deteriorating.  Boots might quickly go from "new" to "used", then spend most of their lifetime the "used" bracket, and then once they got to "worn out" would quickly start disintegrating on you.

Repairs to boots probably shouldn't take them back up to pristine/new quality, but only back up to "used".  If you want new boots, you'll have to buy another pair.

By the same token, typical repairs to boots shouldn't take very long at all - I would say the two hours the armor repair/tailor NPCs tend to need with them is way too much.  Realistically, you should be able to stand there and watch the repair happen (the discrepancy with how long it takes you to get a fully beshitted bisht laundered is worth noting, too).

As a random anecdote, I was walking around in India with a girl who had a sandal fall apart on her.  There were artisans everywhere, and we literally walked about 50 meters and found a cobbler who fixed her sandals in less than five minutes -- and did such a good job that the other intact sandal looked cheaply constructed by comparison.

[Down Under]

I voted for prices are good, but items could get worn out faster.

This is just spitballing, but I wonder if a good pilot study could involve the wearing out of boots items.  They don't tend to be vital pieces of armor, so experimenting with them wouldn't impact anyone too much.

What I'm imagining is something like: every room, depending on the terrain type, your boots could have a small chance of deteriorating.  Boots might quickly go from "new" to "used", then spend most of their lifetime the "used" bracket, and then once they got to "worn out" would quickly start disintegrating on you.

Repairs to boots probably shouldn't take them back up to pristine/new quality, but only back up to "used".  If you want new boots, you'll have to buy another pair.

By the same token, typical repairs to boots shouldn't take very long at all - I would say the two hours the armor repair/tailor NPCs tend to need with them is way too much.  Realistically, you should be able to stand there and watch the repair happen (the discrepancy with how long it takes you to get a fully beshitted bisht laundered is worth noting, too).

As a random anecdote, I was walking around in India with a girl who had a sandal fall apart on her.  There were artisans everywhere, and we literally walked about 50 meters and found a cobbler who fixed her sandals in less than five minutes -- and did such a good job that the other intact sandal looked cheaply constructed by comparison.

Love this idea.

[Rokal]

I voted for prices are good, but items could get worn out faster.

This is just spitballing, but I wonder if a good pilot study could involve the wearing out of boots items.  They don't tend to be vital pieces of armor, so experimenting with them wouldn't impact anyone too much.

What I'm imagining is something like: every room, depending on the terrain type, your boots could have a small chance of deteriorating.  Boots might quickly go from "new" to "used", then spend most of their lifetime the "used" bracket, and then once they got to "worn out" would quickly start disintegrating on you.

Repairs to boots probably shouldn't take them back up to pristine/new quality, but only back up to "used".  If you want new boots, you'll have to buy another pair.

By the same token, typical repairs to boots shouldn't take very long at all - I would say the two hours the armor repair/tailor NPCs tend to need with them is way too much.  Realistically, you should be able to stand there and watch the repair happen (the discrepancy with how long it takes you to get a fully beshitted bisht laundered is worth noting, too).

As a random anecdote, I was walking around in India with a girl who had a sandal fall apart on her.  There were artisans everywhere, and we literally walked about 50 meters and found a cobbler who fixed her sandals in less than five minutes -- and did such a good job that the other intact sandal looked cheaply constructed by comparison.

Love this idea.

[valeria]

With vague memories of how annoying it is to have even just shields wear out and have to be repaired (and how hard it is to get in touch with merchants sometimes to buy replacements) I've never really been a fan of items wearing out.  It just isn't my cup of tea.  I do agree that it's a little too easy for characters that are long lived to amass really crazy amounts of coin, but I'd rather see the economy adjusted on the other end somehow, so that it's harder for commoners to accumulate coin, rather than see it adjusted on this end.

[Patuk]

Much like most people here, I think that prices are about right, but that things should wear out much quicker.

I have never, not once, had a weapon break on me. Granted, I stay the hell away from giants, and only played a single combat-guild dwarf. But even then, the way weapons stay in good shape forever is crazy. As stated above, freaking steel weaponry doesn't stay good that long: it tends to dent and blunt and become useless rather quickly. And much unlike Zalanthan weaponry, steel swords tend to break, too.

A lack of steel or iron is why, generally, people in cultures with no metallurgy stick to weapons like clubs, axes or spears; a club may break but won't dull, and an axehead/spearhead is relatively easy to replace. Even when swords were used, as in the case of the aztecs, the swords in question were many-headed axes, lengths of wood with many shards of obsidian wedged into them. Again, a shard of obsidian is easier to replace than a whole sword. And even then, their swords broke often.

And before anyone mentions armor being expensive, I'd like to note that it is working exactly as intended. Just what did you expect? Armor isn't easy to make at all. It involves leather being specifically treated and boiled for it to be hard enough to withstand blows, many layers of linen being crafted skilfully in order for it to get a texture similar to a stab vest, or rigid chitin, shell or bone being woven together with cloth/leather so it might fit a person's body whilst still allowing them to move. Armor is a privilege, not a right.

[williamson]

     Having items wear out at a faster pace would certainly be more realistic. However, would it make the game better or more fun? I'm not so sure. If weapons and equipment wear out faster, I wonder how this would effect my play? My first thoughts are that I would likely quit buying a lot of expensive gear because I'd see it as wasting my hard earned coins. This would have a negative impact on the GMHs that rely on expensive equipment to generate profit which in turn pays minions and funds plots. I played the game when weapons broke much more frequently in combat. At that time, it wasn't uncommon for someone to unexpectedly die when their weapon broke in combat. That was before the reel code went into effect. At some point the staff changed the code to how it is today. Perhaps they got tired of important PCs dying and plots ending because a weapon broke? There are a lot of things that could be changed to be more realistic such as water evaporating, food spoiling, or wounds taking much longer to heal. I'm not convinced this change will significantly improve anything or increase my tolerance of theft. I think I might just end up taking more trips to the armor repair shops.

[HavokBlue]

I can safely say that at no point playing this game have I ever thought to myself "Man, I wish weapons broke more often so I get to deal with three times as many orders every week" or "Man, I wish weapons broke more often so there was a random chance of my PC getting absolutely fucked by an NPC!" or "Man, I think we should absolutely shaft offpeakers or anyone else who can't match-up their playtimes with a merchant every time they lose an item!"

[Norcal]

Items should have a lifespan, which is determined by their composition. Items made of stone or heavy chitin, will have longer lives than items made of leather or wood, or some bone. Items with a greater lifespan could have correspondingly greater prices.

The uber-fancy set or armor and matching sabers tucked away in some nobles estate, should fall apart over time.  Or at least parts of them should.  
This would:
a. Allow those items to be crafted again and perhaps sold to someone else, or sold more generally. Get them back into the game so to speak.
b. Require the Nobles to purchase new shiny things or take them to the armorer to have them fixed/cleaned/restored.

Even heavy plate cracks eventually. If not, then how are the critters that wear it in nature killed?
If tools can degrade from use, then weapons and armor should also degrade quicker.

Repairing weapons should be a skill any combat class would have.  Basic damage would most likely be fixed by sharpening, a skill that would in my opinion come right along with learning to use the blade. Heavier damage would require greater skill to fix and would permanently reduce the quality of the weapon. That could be evident in an item that can no longer be fully repaired, and eventually not at all.

The game economy..is defiantly out of sync. Yet that is pretty much just the way it goes as trying to fix it would most likely make it worse. Prices reflect the out of sync economy, yet for weapons and armor, I think they are spot on. The Armament/armor sector of the economy is the one which in my opinion, operates the closest to real life, supply and demand with the variety of value quality and price one would expect.

[BadSkeelz]

I am not a fan of items degrading because of some sort of arbitrary lifespan timer. Items should degrade based on their usage. Bad enough when some rookie clanmate logs in after a few RL months and he's a couple of years aged, I don't need him to also show up and be naked as well.

[Down Under]

Agreed with 'usage' over 'lifespan'.

[Ouroboros]

I can safely say that at no point playing this game have I ever thought to myself "Man, I wish weapons broke more often so I get to deal with three times as many orders every week" or "Man, I wish weapons broke more often so there was a random chance of my PC getting absolutely fucked by an NPC!" or "Man, I think we should absolutely shaft offpeakers or anyone else who can't match-up their playtimes with a merchant every time they lose an item!"

My brief thoughts as well.

[Riev]

I can safely say that at no point playing this game have I ever thought to myself "Man, I wish weapons broke more often so I get to deal with three times as many orders every week" or "Man, I wish weapons broke more often so there was a random chance of my PC getting absolutely fucked by an NPC!" or "Man, I think we should absolutely shaft offpeakers or anyone else who can't match-up their playtimes with a merchant every time they lose an item!"

My brief thoughts as well.

Thirded, with the caution that I'm sure a base of 200+ players plus staffers that have been around since the dawn of the Fifth Age of Man might be able to find a compromise.

Offpeakers... well they get that gear in the first place. The "High end" gear shouldn't be so easy anyways, and I'd rather see more people in gurth shell and scrab plate because the busy salarri couldn't get to them.

Also the merchant "Armor Repair" skill might actually find a usage with more deterioration.

Weapons breaking sounds AMAZING in combat. As though that 500th scrab kicking your ass wasn't enough, now you have to be sure you don't break your wooden sword (... in scrab claws...) and be forced to draw another or run? Yes please.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Great sig Riev.

Part of my original concept was a revamping of the way weapons degraded, making it more like armor where it would show signs of wear first. Which I honestly think is better then the current system of (by appearance) going from 100% -> 0% in the span of one combat turn. (By which I mean it looks fine, then breaks without warning.) This could introduce a new weapon repair skill (or make the repair skill more general so that it applies to both).

Worn weapons and armor could do less damage / stop less damage respectfully, making upkeep important, and giving Bynners a little bit more to do on those maintenance chore days.

I guess I can see where it would be annoying, as you're essentially nickle-and-diming newer characters. But I really like the extra touch of realism it adds over all.

[CodeMaster]

There is an item in the game that I've seen fall apart the first time you score a hit with it.  So maybe the following is feasible by editing/expanding on that script:

Take your standard 'obsidian longsword' object.  Amp its damage up a bit -- make it among the harder-hitting items in the game, maybe one of the best weapons a newbie could get his/her hands on -- a weapon that would be sought out by many when it's in pristine condition.

...with a twist: give it a chance to break during combat according to something like the aforementioned script (so not the standard breakage code).  In this case, it doesn't just disappear -- it turns into 'a broken obsidian longsword' object.  Your character is still wielding it, it's still a slashing weapon, and he's still able to defend his/herself with it.  But now it's seriously diminished in its ability to deal damage.

[HavokBlue]

I can't grasp what could possibly fun about makin your weapons more likely to break in combat. You can say that it's more realistic or enhances the danger of the world but... If you want enhanced danger, enhance danger in ways that don't involve RNG determining if all of your plots and effort are going to fly out the window.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I would offer the perspective of a merchant - they are more likely to be around when you want them if they have automated access to their entire non-craftable inventory. This way, the persistent pestering of customers depends on us, not on staff getting back to us, and is in our hands.

Personally, I love the idea of items wearing down with use. Clothing, weapons, armor. I wouldn't have armor degrade faster than it does already, but I am fond of the idea of normal clothing and weapons and such wearing down. I was a huge fan of the idea of crafting tools wearing down. I'm also a huge fan of nothing disappearing unless you explicitly junk it.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

...give it a chance to break during combat according to something like the aforementioned script (so not the standard breakage code).  In this case, it doesn't just disappear -- it turns into 'a broken obsidian longsword' object. 

Pass it down to your PC's great-great [...] great-great grandson. Let him carry it around in a scabbard for 90 years until one day he gets his elf friend / father-in-law to fix it, then goes and rules the White City with it!  I'm down.

I like this idea, but it would basically require every item to have two items - the full one and the broken one. Although, I suppose you could have a handful of realistic "broken" items that each full weapon would point to. An obsidian sword and obsidian scimitar would both point to "an obsidian halfsword" (resell to rinthis for teh backstabz), a wood-handled spear and a wood-handled axe would both become "a broken wooden shaft" (bludgeoning). It's neat, and it eliminates MOST of the danger associated with suddenly finding yourself unarmed. Your going to have drastically reduced damage output, but you're not going to be suddenly and royally ass-fucked by the gortok you were just fighting. You would still be codedly armed. It would give you a chance to decide whether to go for a backup weapon, or to flee.

@HavokBlue - I think it's a neat idea, but it's clearly not your thing. I can see your point, and I agree there could be some shitty consequences. Personally, when I play certain combat roles, I'm addicted to the chaos aspect of it. I'm the guy who's playing a Bynner, and hoping for a contract where half the unit gets wiped. At the end of the day though, it's kind of moot. I think we both know that this is basically a hypothetical discuss though. There's a pretty slim chance this would ever go in to production code.

And actually items breaking more often was only part of the original discussion I'd hoped to have here.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Personally, I love the idea of items wearing down with use. Clothing, weapons, armor. I wouldn't have armor degrade faster than it does already, but I am fond of the idea of normal clothing and weapons and such wearing down. I was a huge fan of the idea of crafting tools wearing down.

+1.

And again, the key here is that they would wear down, not simply abruptly break more often. It probably WOULDN'T happen to you unless you started out for the day with a "a used obsidian longsword". (To use armor terms.) Speaking as one of the seemingly small number of players who've had a character that breaks weapons on a fairly regular basis, I wish I'd had a warning. Currently weapons aren't coded to show whatever reduction in health they might go through. One minute they're 100%, the next minute they shatter and leave you empty handed!

I mean, for christs' sake, the tools wear down now, and no one's banging those together with all their might.