Way echoes

[Is Friday]

The idea is simple. Have using the Way fire off an hemote for the user.

You see...
You notice: The tressy-tressed woman's countenance glosses over briefly.


I think this will facilitate Way etiquette and create more opportunities for interesting play rather than have it be some separate part of our roleplay.

edit: Typo.

[Lizzie]

If it happened only when activating the "contact" command I'd really like that idea. I'm not so sure I'd want to have to see the spam if my character had good perception and was in a bar with 4 or 5 people all using the Way, if it was tacked onto the psi command.

[Fujikoma]

I like it. A lot.

[FantasyWriter]

Nod.

[Fujikoma]

It would solve the problem with interogating people and them waying all their buddies in the militia that some crazy sharp has a knife to their throat because you could just stab them to stop it.

[nauta]

It'd also let me know if Fist soldiers are statues or persons, admittedly, persons with glossy countenances. 

Plus, you couldn't get away with waying while sexing any more.

[Is Friday]

It would solve the problem with interogating people and them waying all their buddies in the militia that some crazy sharp has a knife to their throat because you could just stab them to stop it.

One of the many reasons to have this.

[Fujikoma]

It would solve the problem with interogating people and them waying all their buddies in the militia that some crazy sharp has a knife to their throat because you could just stab them to stop it.

One of the many reasons to have this.

Yes, because then its actually possible to get to know what you want to know and send a message without having to kill them because, oop, suddenly everyone knows exactly who you are under that dark hooded cloak and grey facewrap.

[CodeMaster]

I love the idea.

I see one minor balance issue is that it renders the noble Waying her three associates as she walks along a more vulnerable sap target; meanwhile, the assassin with hide isn't going to be affected as much.  Thus implicitly making hide a little more powerful.

Maybe the message would only show up if you're at less than 1/2 or 2/5 your stun?  Or, like Lizzie suggested, when you first make contact?  I.e., it would be cool if there were -some- way to hide the fact that you're using the Way, at least at master levels.

[Fujikoma]

I love the idea.

I see one minor balance issue is that it renders the noble Waying her three associates as she walks along a more vulnerable sap target; meanwhile, the assassin with hide isn't going to be affected as much.  Thus implicitly making hide a little more powerful.

Maybe the message would only show up if you're at less than 1/2 or 2/5 your stun?  Or, like Lizzie suggested, when you first make contact?  I.e., it would be cool if there were -some- way to hide the fact that you're using the Way, at least at master levels.

Have it require more scan/watch to see as contact goes up in skill?

EDIT: It would provide, also, a reasonable way to grind scan/watch without doing OOC things like wandering down Hathors and getting shanked.

[Harmless]

I do my best to show when I am waying, with subtle hints, in emotes, hemotes in particular. An enforced hemote is fine with me, because I do it myself manually already. That is my opinion based on my playstyle, and yes, I think people should hemote when doing things like Waying. I think EVERY action deserves an emote sometimes.

[Majikal]

Great idea.

[RogueGunslinger]

This is a damn fine idea.

[KankWhisperer]

Should also depend on how good you are with the way.

Also on mask.

[Is Friday]

As long as STEAL treats subdued victims just like sleeping victims. You should be able to unmask peeps.

[Harmless]

As long as STEAL treats subdued victims just like sleeping victims. You should be able to unmask peeps.

This isn't already the case? That's the kind of change that fits in "bug" territory, if you ask me. Yes, you should be able to steal things from someone who is subdued without triggering crim code (i.e., without resistance).

[RogueGunslinger]

It's funny how I know all the answers to this stuff when I'm playing a soldier character, then immediately forget it later after said character dies.

I don't think you can strip a PC. I remember at one point having to OOC them to 'drop item'. While subdued. They can't remove it but they can drop it, even if it's worn.

[BadSkeelz]

You can steal a worn backpack from an unconscious character, so I assume you can do the same thing with a mask.

I do think you're right RGS in that you can drop a worn item while subdued. I swear the subdue code switches around on me every time I have to interact with it. Much easier to just loot bodies.

[CodeMaster]

Is it that "nosave steal" doesn't work, or that you can't steal while you have someone subdued?

[edit: looks like it's "nosave theft", shoulda checked]

[RogueGunslinger]

Can't steal while subduing someone. Can't steal shirts/armor/packs and things unless the person is asleep, in my experience, but that might just be from lack of trying. Not sure how nosave steal works for that.

[Is Friday]

Ideally you'd have two people for this.

Anyway, this is off topic.

TALK ABOUT WAY ECHOES OKAY?

[Fujikoma]

I don't know if barrier needs one (maybe their pupils widen a little). Expel would be neat though, complete with a gruff grunt, as if constipated.

[CodeMaster]

Here's another idea -- what if it showed up in 'assess -v' when someone was using the Way?

That way the person trying to sniff your way status has a chance of being caught in the act, too.

[Molten Heart]

I'd rather people use hemotes if they want those around them to know they're using the way, otherwise I'd rather the way have no outward signals.

[X-D]

Why?

And no, I do not like the idea.

Mostly because it is a blanket idea...Oooh...EVERYBODY has this exact same reaction/tell when using the way...blah.

I already give tells when my PC is low skill at the way, but at high skill they start to go away, at master I consider breathing to be more taxing then using the way.

And even if such a boring blanket bit of code was put in, I would have to fight for, at advanced and above there is no emote/semote/hemote to detect.

Oh, and don't forget, you would also need a deception skill then.

The only good thing I can think of this idea is how much fun I would have hemoting the way echos in order to fool people and make them paranoid. The only people who should know when a PC is waying is the PC, whoever he is waying and mindbenders...assuming they can do such a thing.

[Incognito]

The tall figure in a dark hooded cloak says in rinthi-accented Sirihish, "If you try and contact someone I'll kill you."

You nod meekly, tied and bound up and bleeding badly.

You think "I need to reach out to Amos, he might be able to save me."

You contact Amos' mind over the Way.

Your countenance glosses over briefly.

Welcome to Armageddon...

No - this is a really bad idea.

[Is Friday]

The tall figure in a dark hooded cloak says in rinthi-accented Sirihish, "If you try and contact someone I'll kill you."

You nod meekly, tied and bound up and bleeding badly.

You think "I need to reach out to Amos, he might be able to save me."

You contact Amos' mind over the Way.

Your countenance glosses over briefly.

Welcome to Armageddon...

No - this is a really bad idea.

This is actually the exact scenario I have in mind for why it's a good idea.

[FantasyWriter]

Agree with Is Friday.
This would actually give a raider/mugger MORE chances to leave their victims alive.

[Molten Heart]

IF you're a raider and you want to make sure your target isn't waying anyone (anyone else), demand they contact you and stay there. Problem solved.

[Is Friday]

That is not a solution.

Edit:

This idea is meant to facilitate more tension in face to face interaction, provide depth or challenge to subversive acts, and give weight to physical threats. It's meant to encourage more middle ground between questioning and killing a captive. Although it has a much wider scope it impacts.

I'm not saying that contacting people and spreading info like that is metagamey, but it certainly would be more interesting if you added some visual representation of someone who is using the Way. Right now the Way only matters for your plots. Let's get those things connected and have more people involved.

[Molten Heart]

That is not a solution.

It's a solution.

[Is Friday]

Clarification: My proposal isn't to give everyone the same bland emote for Waying, the idea is just that you have some coded echo or ability to see if someone is Waying.

Assess -v
Look
Watch
Hemote

... are all options and if you're going to introduce something like this it is just as easy to provide a non-spammy option.

[Molten Heart]

Is it realistic for a mundane person to detect when someone else is using the way? I don't think it is.

[Is Friday]

Is it realistic for a mundane to be able to use the Way at all?

[Fujikoma]

... I think this is a good idea, already having said that, however. Demanding someone contact you costs several seconds in delay which could result in their demise due to retaliation over delay or maybe some RL stuff on their end (or maybe they just woke up from a sap or a taint and you have no idea how fast they'll recuperate), so, I am also of the opinion that this is not a solution. Now, things work perfectly well as they are, but I would rather discuss the merits of the idea or the drawbacks, rather than mentioning quick fixes. This is an idea, not an attack on the way the code already is. And this is but one possible benefit/drawback, I'm sure there's others we've not explored or that others haven't mentioned, this just happens to be one of the first things that comes to mind. I think anything that makes it easier to spare the life of another PC is a good thing (although you ungrateful bastards usually react badly).

Another benefit would be it would always be happening in highly trafficked areas, which means, scan and watch would have a chance to skill up at a more natural pace and involve less OOC motivated behavior like: find that one hidden NPC that's always there and spam look in that direction. If you play in Tuluk, this may not be a big issue, or if you play in Storm, but somewhere like Luir's or Allanak, you may have a bit of a tough time (although with certain new additions it may not be so bad).

I'm sure there are others, like, maybe if something bad happens to you every time you climb onto a stool and someone's whatchamacallit goes glossy, you have an indication of where you may need to look for the source of your woes. Constant anonymous hassling from someone pretending to be friendly gets old after a while.

If it's harder to detect at higher levels, though, this sort of equals just a big buff for rangers, it's unlikely to achieve any degree of consistency with another guild, to be quite honest, unless its stealth factor tops out at a certain point.

[Molten Heart]

Sorry, I just don't agree. if the code generates echos when someone uses the way, shouldn't it generate echos when someone is hungry, thirsty, has to pee, wounded, tired, horny, bored, anxious. thinking murderous thoughts, etc? Imagine the distraction this would cause during the next Fale RPT or even just sitting in a tavern full of other people.

If we're looking for ideas to facilitate raiding there are certain poisons one can use to render marks vulnerable.  I'd even suggest some kind of way to blind people, blindness poison?  That'd be pretty cool.

[Is Friday]

I editted my above post instead of making a new one. Whoops.

[FantasyWriter]

Sorry, I just don't agree. if the code generates echos when someone uses the way, shouldn't it generate echos when someone is hungry, thirsty, has to pee, wounded, tired, horny, bored, anxious. thinking murderous thoughts, etc? Imagine the distraction this would cause during the next Fale RPT or even just sitting in a tavern full of other people.

Except unlike those things, it distracts your PC in a significant and measurable way(it takes stun points/breaks your concentration)  If you don't believe me, try contacting someone while you are making something, or trying to hide, or trying to cast a spell. Just like scanning does, just like watching someone does, it takes a consistent amount of effort and people should have a chance to notice.  Even if your date is texting under the table, it is still likely to be noticed that they aren't giving you their undivided attention.

[Case]

Definitely love the idea more after X-Ds response earlier.

[X-D]

Heh.

I still see no point to it.

Oh, I know, the newb wannabe raider/mugger players think it is great. But as others have said, there are already several ways to prevent a mark from using the way or using it against you.

Or, you can just plan for it. When I play a raider, I know they will way friends if they have them, That is fine, I never told anybody to not way. And not once did help ever arrive, not in hundreds of scenes.

[MeTekillot]

Look guys, there are already ways to do the things you want. You just need to know what they are. wink wink nudge nudge

[Majikal]

Maybe have it designed so only if you're watching them do you have a chance of picking it up?

[Fujikoma]

Look guys, there are already ways to do the things you want. You just need to know what they are. wink wink nudge nudge

Yeah, it's:

think I know Amos will way his friends if I try to speak with him, and tell them all what I look like.
semote gives ~amos the finger.
backstab amos

[HavokBlue]

Everything you may ever potentially want to accomplish in game, X-D already knows how to do, has planned for, and isn't worried about.

There is no scenario in which X-D does not win.

He is...

The perfect weapon.

[nauta]

Sorta necro, too, but I really liked this idea, and thought of another case where it'd be helpful:

When shadowing people, they often go into this trance state, which sometimes means they are AFK (which means I can go grab lunch or do something more interesting with my time) or they are waying.  It's sort of a playability plus, I'd say.

(Not just when shadowing, sometimes people just drop out mid conversation, and it'd be nice to know if they are afk or just not doing anything on the surface.)

And I agree with the main thought, it'd bring the two worlds closer together.  Without giving away too many details (as if we don't know, but!) it wasn't until I started playing in Tuluk that I really started paying attention to the FEEL command.  I feel there's an analogy here: if other PCs can pick up on it, it allows them (even that iota) of a chance to RP a reaction: Oh, she's waying, I'll wait politely.  Instead of that awkward: nothing.

[wizturbo]

With everyone starting with contact at Master, I think it's safe to say the average Zalanthian is capable of using the Way discretely if they so choose.  Leave it to the player to emote where necessary.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

[having your victim contact you] is not a solution.

It's a solution.

+1.

This is the way it's always been done, and it's a 10x more viable solution now that everyone has master contact. I remember back in the day when I was the victim in this scenario with a < 1 day character, and I had to KO myself in a show of good faith just to not get ganked. Really made the scene dog shit, but what can you do? Again, that's almost never going to happen these days.

Mostly because it is a blanket idea...Oooh...EVERYBODY has this exact same reaction/tell when using the way...blah.

I already give tells when my PC is low skill at the way, but at high skill they start to go away, at master I consider breathing to be more taxing then using the way.

Nail on head. Most PCs will do the finger on temple thing when they're waying. But with way communication being almost as natural as verbal communication in Zalanthas, there's absolutely no reason they wouldn't be able to disguise their distraction at will.

I mean, I'm not a big fan of people carrying on several perfectly coherent discussions simultaneously but adding a "gotcha!" isn't going to prevent that. That's up to individual responsibility.

[HavokBlue]

My PCs generally don't exhibit a tell for Way usage unless they're doing it intentionally to indicate to the people they're with that they're maintaining another conversation, or if they're about to pass out from low stun.

[Suhuy]

Interesting idea I can see the reasons both for and against. But before something like that would get implemented, I think it needs to be decided on high if the Way is something which actually taxes you such that it would cause visible strain, not just psychic strain. I don't care if it's the same script every time, for people who think that might get redundant. You also see the same script when someone hits you very hard, or when someone smokes spice, or when someone crouches down and looks for tracks, etc. But there may be too many variables for there to always be indicators of using telepathy. For example, if I'm resting and otherwise doing nothing, perhaps it would be easy to conceal any facial cues that indicate I'm using the Way, whereas it may be more difficult to maintain concentration while having a conversation. And these are things the code just can't always determine. I think I might rather see a certain measure of trust extended to players with regards to how they choose to RP using the Way. Though by the same token, if this idea got implemented tomorrow I would eagerly look forward to how we all will have to deal with the new changes!

[Is Friday]

As a person who has played law enforcement PCs, kidnappers, and bounty hunters -- extending people the trust that they'll "be responsible" in their roleplay is misguided. Most people with investment in their PC is going to do what they need to do to survive with that PC. Just like any character would logically do whatever to survive. When roleplayers get into intense scenes where their PC's life is at stake, it is not commonplace for a player to remain calm or hit every "I'm a good honest roleplayer" checkbox.

The idea is meant to foster more roleplay in tense or restricted situations, not prohibit it.

[Suhuy]

Well, I guess I see things more optimistically than that. I've seen what Arm was like in '93, I've seen what it was like in '03 and '13. The current playerbase is leaps and bounds ahead of where it used to be. That isn't to suggest I naively think there isn't abuse going on, I've been witness to some quite recently, in fact. It happens. But gone are the days where more players than not spar nonstop for IC days at a time, or sneakily do things that are not IC for their character concept during off peak hours because they feel no one is watching. Again, not saying it doesn't happen - I'm saying it's no longer the norm. After being gone for a few years and coming back at one point, I was quite impressed with the overall maturity here. You'll be hard pressed to find magicker or elf loving humans nowadays. Half-giants act like half-giants, muls act like muls, and magickers are no longer Batman or some other ridiculous caped crusader with a silly affectation and X-Men style pseudonym. People will do things they need to survive provided it's within the framework of what's realistic to do. When I'm playing the person doing the hunting, yes, I do trust the person on the other end. I trust they won't do something wildly OOC in order to get away. Respectfully, it sounds like you just see the worst in everyone and assume straight away that they'll cheat - and that's not the kind of atmosphere I think we should be fostering here.

More importantly, it needs to be decided first if using the Way actually causes a person to exhibit any visible effects before we decide what's realistic or not. Based on current documentation, there's nothing unrealistic about 100% concealing when you use contact or psi. That isn't to say I don't think it would be an interesting turn of events if subtle clues were occasionally prompted, as in your idea, but I'd appreciate a heads up from staff implementing this in advance, since it will now mean we have to RP our characters differently than we have done since the dawn of time.

[Is Friday]

Respectfully, it sounds like you just see the worst in everyone and assume straight away that they'll cheat - and that's not the kind of atmosphere I think we should be fostering here.

This idea is meant to facilitate more tension in face to face interaction, provide depth or challenge to subversive acts, and give weight to physical threats. It's meant to encourage more middle ground between questioning and killing a captive. Although it has a much wider scope it impacts.

I'm not saying that contacting people and spreading info like that is metagamey, but it certainly would be more interesting if you added some visual representation of someone who is using the Way. Right now the Way only matters for your plots. Let's get those things connected and have more people involved.

[X-D]

I am glad this got necro'd...I got to see havokblue's post again and snicker again.

[Harmless]

Although I kind of get HavokBlue's desire to play ultimate bad-asses who don't even bat an eyelash when using the Way, I have to say that the help files and some extrapolation of their meaning imply that that kind of roleplay is not really appropriate.

Whether it should be done with feels alone, or emotes+feels, I think something is definitely warranted. You don't have to give it away by any means -- because we all know that "hemote narrows his eyes slightly" will cause your typical upstart His Arm recruit to explode with suspicion -- but you should have your use of the Way influence your roleplay.

Frequently, what I will do is constantly keep tabs on my character's mood + feels. The mood is great. If I am using a lot of skills or moving often, the mood becomes "tired." "Drained." "worn out." Etc. Then, when my character responds to people, that mood influences her responses.

I think people could get MUCH more creative with how they roleplay too much Way usage. Just extrapolating from the help files, a huge list of possible symptoms of "over-waying" can be conceived.

...While the use of the Way is not simple (it makes demands on one's consciousness, as measured by your character's stun points)

Stun points are a representation of your mental consciousness. Many things can tax your stun points, from combat, to concentration, to using psionics, to the abrupt stop after a fall.

The loss of all your stun points will result in your character becoming unconscious for a period of time.

Levels of impaired consciousness include: confusion --> disorientation --> delirium, lethargy, stupor, and coma.

Alertness and being oriented to place and time are major characteristics of consciousness. Alertness means that you are able to respond appropriately to the people and things around you. You are oriented when you know who you are, where you are, where you live, and what time it is.

When consciousness is decreased, your ability to remain awake, aware, and oriented is impaired.

Symptoms that may be associated with decreased consciousness are:

seizures
loss of bowel or bladder function
poor balance
falling
difficulty walking
fainting
lightheadedness
irregular heart beat
rapid pulse
low blood pressure
sweating
fever
weakness in the face, arms, or legs

[Dresan]

A little late to this party but I like this idea.

As other have said it would be great if it involved having a high watch skill.

Heck, I'd probably take this idea a lot farther. A new toggle on/off skill like listen that would allow you to see messages sent over the way, assuming you are in the same room with the person sending them ( you wouldn't get messages they are receiving though).  Or maybe high watch and/or listen skill allows you a chance to see their subtle lips moving and mumbling when they use the way giving you a chance to figure out what they might be sending.

Okay maybe not, this might cause a lot of problems.