Way sniffing

[Lizzie]

Harmless, that will only help people who have really good contact skill, and it will harm anyone with really bad/novice contact skill.

Especially those with lower wisdom, who have to expend anywhere up to 15 stun points just to TRY and contact someone - and whose stun points take forever to return to normal again.

I just don't see this as a problem. There's a mystery to the Way, and how it works. I'm fine with that. There SHOULD be a mystery to how it works. I think it's awesome that we DON'T know who is trying to find our minds until they actually say something. I'm very very happy at the change that was made to contact, from prior to the mid 2000's. It's a huge improvement over how it used to be. And then there was also another change made to the stun point drain, which has improved things since for all sides - especially people who do NOT have master contact and "very good" or better wisdom (or are half-giants or dwarves).

I also think you're either overly paranoid about assassins, or you play characters that are really good at pissing off the wrong people. I've had characters assassinated many times - and I don't recall more than three or four that were preceded by someone waying me and leaving my head without saying anything. If you really think it's an issue, I'm sure Nyr could come up with the actual data on how many assassinations took place as a result of the assassin being able to find their target's mind first. I'm guessing the answer would be very - very few.

[Harmless]

I also think you're either overly paranoid about assassins, or you play characters that are really good at pissing off the wrong people.

Pretty sure you're not talking to me with this part of your post, but instead talking to some of the other folks here. If you are talking to me, I have absolutely no idea why you'd think that. I made my suggestion in sympathy to others here.

The rest of your post I don't disagree with. I am completely neutral on this whole topic but think it is worth discussing changes and ideas.

[FantasyWriter]

A mundane in Tuluk should not be able to break a barrier in Allanak. EVER.
I don't even like that you can way that far with any consistency even without a barrier. You should get garbled messages similar to they way language code works when you first get the new language skill.
Want to make the world seem larger? Nerf non-psion psionics.

[RogueGunslinger]

Hmmm. Eh. I agree with the barrier part, but contacting across the know helped one of my character a lot when they were stuck somewhere they didn't want to be and needed to talk to people who weren't stuck in the same place. You have to remember the way is as much for OOC playability as it is for IC convenience.

[FantasyWriter]

Unless your OOC playability relies on remaining undiscovered.  Like escaped slaves, rogue magick users, raiders, etc.
OOCly, it is impossible to blend into a world of millions of virtual beings, many of which would have the same sdesc and even names as your PC.

[RogueGunslinger]

OOCly it's possible by just not logging in. 

ICly it SHOULD be possible by putting up a barrier and having that barrier be effective. I don't really see a need to make the way more finicky.

[Lizzie]

Hmmm. Eh. I agree with the barrier part, but contacting across the know helped one of my character a lot when they were stuck somewhere they didn't want to be and needed to talk to people who weren't stuck in the same place. You have to remember the way is as much for OOC playability as it is for IC convenience.

This, exactly. The whole point of the coded aspect of the Way is to communicate from a distance. It needs no adjustment, it does exactly what it's supposed to do. Also - knowing that I can find your mind doesn't mean I know where you are. If I want to kill you I'll have to do quite a bit more work than simply be capable of knowing that your character is logged into the game.

Sorry Harmless - it's that empathy I disagree with. It gets brought up how often? (Again - Nyr could find the data if it mattered enough or if he was curious enough to check) And it's the same arguments over and over again and the end result is - there really isn't anything wrong with the way it is, it's working as intended, and it is not against the rules, or even bad form, to contact someone, not emote or say anything or feel anything at all, and then break contact. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

[Armaddict]

Hmmm. Eh. I agree with the barrier part, but contacting across the know helped one of my character a lot when they were stuck somewhere they didn't want to be and needed to talk to people who weren't stuck in the same place. You have to remember the way is as much for OOC playability as it is for IC convenience.

This, exactly. The whole point of the coded aspect of the Way is to communicate from a distance. It needs no adjustment, it does exactly what it's supposed to do. Also - knowing that I can find your mind doesn't mean I know where you are. If I want to kill you I'll have to do quite a bit more work than simply be capable of knowing that your character is logged into the game.

Sorry Harmless - it's that empathy I disagree with. It gets brought up how often? (Again - Nyr could find the data if it mattered enough or if he was curious enough to check) And it's the same arguments over and over again and the end result is - there really isn't anything wrong with the way it is, it's working as intended, and it is not against the rules, or even bad form, to contact someone, not emote or say anything or feel anything at all, and then break contact. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Just wanted to point out the contradiction.  You've outlined what the Way is for, now.  In no place does it say to circumvent whether 'Who' tells you who's on or not.  Again, not against the rules.  Not cheating.  Just douchery.

There was another Way discussion recently by Desertman that I liked a great deal, as far as how things could be changed.

[Harmless]

People have playstyle differences. People on the GDB will come here and disagree with some of those playstyles, sometimes vehemently enough to call it "douchey," or "meta," and the bottom line is staff have final say in this stuff. If staff haven't said it's bad, then I don't think it's bad either, because they determine the rules of how to use code and how not to abuse it.

My own opinion is that being touched by the way isn't douchey. Being contacted for the sake of seeing how my character looks isn't meta or douchey either -- if it's in the game, it's in the game. It's perfectly IC to be paranoid and to respond negatively when it happens. It's also perfectly IC not to give a shit. I think players have their preferences of how they play or the personalities they play. My own preference is not to care when that happens, because it is pretty common.

[Kronibas]

Personally, I don't do this regularly, but I can see why people would.

Just think about the Way broadly for a moment.  Now, assume your character is in the presence of another character at a bar for say, four IC hours.

Would having a hood up prevent your character from becoming familiar enough with another character to make an attempt to contact them psionically later?


If my character had an encounter with a hooded figure in the desert, it's pretty likely that I might use contact to get a bead on them, especially if they ran away or were moving fast while I followed them unseen/undetected.


Short descs are weird when it comes to identifying people, especially with the Way, and this problem is exacerbated when a character tries to explain the appearance of another character using sdescs only, which does in fact tend to happen, especially when the IC stakes are high, to track/ID/communicate about another character.  Historically, iC/OOC disputes and other shennanigans have occured due to this type ID'ing, and I think that's why some veteran players are hesitant to really endorse it as a common practice.

[Case]

The majority of these issues would go away if people could pick an alias sdesc for the Way at chargen, unchangeable, and true sdescs were left to psionicists.

[Lizzie]

Way sniffing would also be a lot less prevalent if players would make sure their sdescs reflect their mdescs and that the most prominent features are actually featured in their sdesc, as it's supposed to be.

The staff looks like they often gloss over descriptions just to make sure there's nothing blaringly obviously "wrong" with them, but they can't possibly have time to take to really scrutinize. I typo descriptions all the time (including my own when I catch them after the fact) but to date, I have only witnessed two near-immediate changes (neither of which were my own).

Example so you know what I mean:

The tall, black-haired man.

And in their mdesc, the player has completely forgotten to mention his hair. It's like there's an entire line missing. So if I were to see the guy with his hood up, I'd see that he has brilliant blue eyes, he's tall, male, has scars peppered all over his skin, a crooked nose, he's kind of skinny but not emaciated.

And when the templar sees the tall, black-haired man, he will not even -think- that this -might- be the one I pointed out. He won't even give the guy a second look. Because the tall, black-haired man isn't the scar-peppered crook-nosed man or the tall, scarred blue-eyed man or anything else that he made an effort to describe in his mdesc.

I think this happens a lot more frequently than mystery assassins poking around in people's heads. Some of it is new players who might be overwhelmed with the chargen process, see that they've already told everyone what's prominent and don't realize those features still need to be in the mdesc. Some of them might be veterans who know this is a great way of avoiding getting pointed out. For me, THAT is cheating. But it happens often enough.

[Kronibas]

You're right Lizzie, but remember that those kind of omissions might be the resultt of player forgetfulness/flakiness and not necessarily an attempt to mislead.  I've caught myself getting so into writing parts of mdescs that I get carried away and actually forget to link it back to the short desc.

[Lizzie]

You're right Lizzie, but remember that those kind of omissions might be the resultt of player forgetfulness/flakiness and not necessarily an attempt to mislead.  I've caught myself getting so into writing parts of mdescs that I get carried away and actually forget to link it back to the short desc.

Absolutely. There's two different things going on with that: There's player forgetfulness/overwhelmed new players, and there's intentional omission. Regardless of WHY it happens - it happens, and if it's typoed, it's my opinion that ANY staff member who is available should have the authority and coded ability to change those descriptions on the fly (and of course [send] a message to the player letting them know what/why).

[FantasyWriter]

I've done this alot. My characters almost always start with a sdesc, then I write and rewrite and rewrite and rewrite the mdesc.
In my mind, the PC still looks the same, but the sdecs no longer accurately portray their most noticeable features (what I feel a sdesc should do).

[valeria]

What if barrier... actually worked. Not just worked against people with lower skill and wisdom than you, but against people equal in skill most of the time.

This is pretty much the only idea in this thread that I actually like.  It's too ridiculously easy to have your barrier broken by someone with master contact.  And all of my characters with about 5 days played have mastered contact.  It makes barrier feel pretty pointless to try to maintain a respectable level of privacy in your mind, if that's what you're trying to do.  I would love to see mastered contact fail against mastered barrier around 90% of the time or more.

[Chettaman]

What if barrier... actually worked. Not just worked against people with lower skill and wisdom than you, but against people equal in skill most of the time.

What if: When you ran into someone using barrier you lost an increased amount of stun because of it. You could even get an extra message like,
"You find yourself straining to reach this mind."

The majority of these issues would go away if people could pick an alias sdesc for the Way at chargen, unchangeable, and true sdescs were left to psionicists.

This is a pretty cool idea. Example:
> The deep, grumbly voice sends you: " 'Ey, Runner. Why ain't ya at trainin'?"

the only problem I see is all of the current documents, and history that has already happened where this wasn't the case.

[Lizzie]

What if barrier... actually worked. Not just worked against people with lower skill and wisdom than you, but against people equal in skill most of the time.

What if: When you ran into someone using barrier you lost an increased amount of stun because of it. You could even get an extra message like,
"You find yourself straining to reach this mind."

The majority of these issues would go away if people could pick an alias sdesc for the Way at chargen, unchangeable, and true sdescs were left to psionicists.

This is a pretty cool idea. Example:
> The deep, grumbly voice sends you: " 'Ey, Runner. Why ain't ya at trainin'?"

the only problem I see is all of the current documents, and history that has already happened where this wasn't the case.

There used to be a different echo to differentiate people who were around and your psi just couldn't reach them - and people who were either dead or logged out. That was changed (in part, at least) because it was abused. When you KNOW someone isn't logged in (because you aren't reaching a barrier or other "special echo") then you know it's safe to rob their apartment, or conspire to kill them, or conspire to do whatever else without their knowledge. You know there's no way they'll be able to catch you doing whatever it is you're doing, because the character isn't in the game at the moment.

[MeTekillot]

There should be a different echo for a dead person and an alive person, but perhaps that could be the only differentiation.

[catchall]

Giving people a "Check if this PC is dead" button seems even worse than "Check if this PC is online."

[Fujikoma]

Giving people a "Check if this PC is dead" button seems even worse than "Check if this PC is online."

Rack up massive, massive bounty...

Log out for three RL months. Sit back and laugh maniacally.

[Tetra]

Sorry, that's your opinion!

Waying someone and proceeding not to speak with them isn't cheating.  I haven't done this personally, as any time I use the way, I have a reason(speaking to them) for making contact.  Any action you take in the game(typing in a command) is considered IC.  If your PC can use the Way, and they want to sense for someone, it is far from cheating.

ICly, an assassin might want to sense out an individual's mind, but not make their presence aware.  The Way is a discipline, just like poisoning, stabbing others in the back, or hiding in the shadows.  It can be used in a strategic manner, with the right roleplay motivations, that are self-serving or otherwise clandestine.

Keyword here is roleplay.  Now, if someone were trying to Way a person they had never heard of or met before, just to interact with them, I'd consider that questionable.

[Malken]

Sorry, that's your opinion!

Waying someone and proceeding not to speak with them isn't cheating.  I haven't done this personally, as any time I use the way, I have a reason(speaking to them) for making contact.  Any action you take in the game(typing in a command) is considered IC.  If your PC can use the Way, and they want to sense for someone, it is far from cheating.

ICly, an assassin might want to sense out an individual's mind, but not make their presence aware.  The Way is a discipline, just like poisoning, stabbing others in the back, or hiding in the shadows.  It can be used in a strategic manner, with the right roleplay motivations, that are self-serving or otherwise clandestine.

Keyword here is roleplay.  Now, if someone were trying to Way a person they had never heard of or met before, just to interact with them, I'd consider that questionable.

Well, in theory, you should -always- find someone's mind because they are ICly in the game 24/7. I think that even when a PC is sleeping you can find their mind, you just can't way them or something, so saying that this person might be sleeping when you are logged off isn't really a good excuse. So saying that you use the way to feel if someone is around isn't really legit.. If you want to see if someone is around but sleeping you have, in theory, to actually send them a message and then it comes back to you, in game code, telling you if your message was received or not (so if you find out that someone is awake and around, in theory, that person should also know who sent that message - at least the description).

I don't know where I'm going with this but yeah.

[nauta]

Well, in theory, you should -always- find someone's mind because they are ICly in the game 24/7. I think that even when a PC is sleeping you can find their mind, you just can't way them or something, so saying that this person might be sleeping when you are logged off isn't really a good excuse. So saying that you use the way to feel if someone is around isn't really legit.. If you want to see if someone is around but sleeping you have, in theory, to actually send them a message and then it comes back to you, in game code, telling you if your message was received or not (so if you find out that someone is awake and around, in theory, that person should also know who sent that message - at least the description).

I don't know where I'm going with this but yeah.

This is what originally caused me to wonder how my PC should RP it.  I've learned a lot from the discussion, and I think that while the realism takes a hit from the current system, the playability issues involved in knowing when someone is dead would be worse.  So I'm going with Moe's answer: the way is just flaky and super mysterious.  When we are online, it seems to work pretty seamlessly, but that's just us getting lucky.

I still find it hard to RP a relationship with someone, since it'll be like: Oh, hey, I haven't seen you or found your mind for three weeks, and I know you weren't sleeping since way gives me different feels for that, so you totally had your barrier up and were with her weren't you MY MATE WITH WHOM I LIVE.  But hey, it's a harsh desert planet.  Screw intimacy.

EDITED TO ADD: "while MAGICAL realism takes a hit", rather.

[CodeMaster]

This is what originally caused me to wonder how my PC should RP it.  I've learned a lot from the discussion, and I think that while the realism takes a hit from the current system, the playability issues involved in knowing when someone is dead would be worse.  So I'm going with Moe's answer: the way is just flaky and super mysterious.  When we are online, it seems to work pretty seamlessly, but that's just us getting lucky.

I guess it's like being an extra in the Truman Show - you just have to act like these things are normal and avoid the topic when someone brings it up IC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9lBvg5clr0

And if I don't see you, good afternoon, good evening, and goodnight!