Way sniffing

[nauta]

How do people RP what I will call 'way sniffing' and 'mindtapping'?

Way sniffing: when you are hunting for someone (friend or foe) and you do a quick 'contact Amos' to see if they are online or not (maybe a few in case it doesn't work).

Mindtapping: the same thing except as viewed from the side of the sniffed, that is, when a foreign presence contacts your mind and then just leaves (or worse lingers there).

I can see a couple answers here, including: way sniffing - that's cheating, don't do it.  

IG I've noticed people who way sniff say (when unable to contact the person):  Oh, he must be asleep, or on wall, or whatever.  However, this doesn't make sense, granted that the Way is supposed to be unreliable and mysterious - see the discussion here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48385.msg855460.html).  Just because you can't reach someone's mind, doesn't mean they are asleep or on wall or dead.

And when it happens to you, you almost always know that -someone- is out to kill you -- but does your PC know that?

[Marauder Moe]

Way sniffing: don't do it.

Mindtapping: there are several reasons for this to happen besides Way sniffing, some of which are not nefarious.  Wrong mind, shared name/keyword.  Wanted to talk, but got nervous and jozhalled out or otherwise distracted.

[whitt]

Way sniffing: when you are hunting for someone (friend or foe) and you do a quick 'contact Amos' to see if they are online or not (maybe a few in case it doesn't work).

I'm with Moe.  Don't do it.  Contact someone via the Way if you want to have a conversation.

Mindtapping: the same thing except as viewed from the side of the sniffed, that is, when a foreign presence contacts your mind and then just leaves (or worse lingers there).

And when it happens to you, you almost always know that -someone- is out to kill you -- but does your PC know that?

Not at all true.  Not all players know/track everyone they've encountered by name or you might share a keyword (nickname or even a name).  I usually assume this for most cases.  Unannounced lingering is a little more odd.  Oh, that's not who I meant to find, but I'll sit here anyway?  I am pretty fond of Expel as a solution for unsolicited pokers that just linger about without announcing themselves.  Can't say it's happened more than once.

[HavokBlue]

I'm guilty of using contact to check if leaders or minions were online and then ceasing to go to find them in person.

My big pet peeve is people who use the way to snoop sdescs from hooded/masked PCs. If, for whatever reason, you doubt this, walk into a bar and sit at a lone table with a mask on.

[williamson]

There is nothing wrong with trying to contact people to try and figure out if they are alive, dead, or awake (aka online). Just be aware that your attempts may or may not be successful and could lead to incorrect assumptions.

[nauta]

I'm guilty of using contact to check if leaders or minions were online and then ceasing to go to find them in person.

My big pet peeve is people who use the way to snoop sdescs from hooded/masked PCs. If, for whatever reason, you doubt this, walk into a bar and sit at a lone table with a mask on.

Oh yeah, happens all the time, but I thought that was a legit move in the whole lore of how the way works... and not an ooc cheat.

[williamson]

I'm guilty of using contact to check if leaders or minions were online and then ceasing to go to find them in person.

My big pet peeve is people who use the way to snoop sdescs from hooded/masked PCs. If, for whatever reason, you doubt this, walk into a bar and sit at a lone table with a mask on.

Oh yeah, happens all the time, but I thought that was a legit move in the whole lore of how the way works... and not an ooc cheat.

Using the Way is not cheating.

[HavokBlue]

Using the way to snoop descriptions is pretty shitty imo and it invalidates not only the effort a PC might go to to conceal their identity but also the entire function of identity-concealing items when it comes to people in the same room.

[williamson]

Using the way to snoop descriptions is pretty shitty imo and it invalidates not only the effort a PC might go to to conceal their identity but also the entire function of identity-concealing items when it comes to people in the same room.

Putting up a barrier and a hood can help reduce this from happening.

[nauta]

Using the way to snoop descriptions is pretty shitty imo and it invalidates not only the effort a PC might go to to conceal their identity but also the entire function of identity-concealing items when it comes to people in the same room.

My thought on it when it happened was something like this: when not in the same room or hidden, I'm obscured.  That's super useful (all those cloaked figures in the rinth, e.g.)  But when in the same room, and not hidden, then it seems like one could use psionics way stuff to sniff out my mental fingerprint or whatever.  Just my view on it, which is why I thought it wasn't as cheaty feeling as way sniffing (as defined above).

[Harmless]

This example isn't cheating, but it's bad form and style:

>look figure
>contact figure
>cease

..No roleplay, no emotes, nothing that hints that it was you doing what you did to get their sdesc.

The below example, is, in my opinion, better, and excuses it more.

>look figure [spending a few moments intently staring at the shadow under ^figure hood]
>feel an image of the figure slowly coming to mind, as you concentrate on the way.
>contact figure (however many times)
hemote For a moment, @ seems to quirk a slight smile, while staring ~figure down from afar.
>cease
stand (abruptly) [casting a knowing grin towards ~figure as she exits.]
think Fits the description I had.

I have done basically the second example, submitted a report about it, and received pretty positive feedback from staff, so I am quite sure that there is nothing "against the rules" about this at all.

[whitt]

This example isn't cheating, but it's bad form and style:


The below example, is, in my opinion, better, and excuses it more.

Still... just... no.

Sniffing an sdesc via contact is poor form.  Even if someone who is wrapped up and cloaked contacts -me- via the way.  I'd still RP I didn't recognize them on sight without their hoods and wraps, I've never seen them except in my minds eye.

Perhaps the "You make contact with a tall, dark stranger" message needs to be changed to "You make contact with a foreign mind".  Why should the person making contact receive more information then the person being contacted?  Once a message is passed, only then would the image of the messenger present itself.  No message sent?  No idea who contacted you and no idea who you actually contacted.

[nauta]

Sniffing an sdesc via contact is poor form.  Even if someone who is wrapped up and cloaked contacts -me- via the way.  I'd still RP I didn't recognize them on sight without their hoods and wraps, I've never seen them except in my minds eye.

I dunno, when drunk you get an echo about someone's mind flickering in your head, and it gives the sdesc.  I take the coded echos at their word, and have assumed that if I've got that mental fingerprint sdesc from the way, I'd recognize them on the street, very easily in fact.  I could be wrong, and that's part of the quesiton I have about RP on this.

Perhaps the "You make contact with a tall, dark stranger" message needs to be changed to "You make contact with a foreign mind".  Why should the person making contact receive more information then the person being contacted?  Once a message is passed, only then would the image of the messenger present itself.  No message sent?  No idea who contacted you and no idea who you actually contacted.

Again, I've just taken this to be part of the spooky process of the Way: when you contact someone you get an image of them - like a mental image of some sort, of their relevant features.  I've even had other PCs way me with: *sending a mental image of the tall, dark handsome man* when trying to describe someone over the way.  Was that legit?

[CodeMaster]

Again, I've just taken this to be part of the spooky process of the Way: when you contact someone you get an image of them - like a mental image of some sort, of their relevant features.  I've even had other PCs way me with: *sending a mental image of the tall, dark handsome man* when trying to describe someone over the way.  Was that legit?

I'm super leery of adding stuff in asterisks, but I use it and I feel like it's a cool roleplay element.  It would probably be better if we didn't have to put borderline emoticons in the Way though -- something like this would be cool:

Code Select Expand


psi -anger What are you doing under there?
Feeling anger, you send a telepathic message to the short little elf:
   "What are you doing under there!?"

The short little elf sends you an telepathic message over the Way, tinged with amusement:
    "underwear?"


Sending other people's sdescs seems kinda dodgy to me.  And lazy... if you read someone's description and equipment lists, you can come up with a much more immersive description of someone than their sdesc, and it becomes a fun puzzle for the other player to try to fit the pieces to determine who you mean.

[RogueGunslinger]

I think ya'll are just looking for things to gripe about. If your criminal hinges on their identity not being found out, you're going to have a bad time in Arm. That said, if you don't want someone getting your sdesc via the way, don't sit around in the same room as them.

It's not "bad form." It not "looked down upon." It's how the game works, so you best get used to it.

[Harmless]

RGS is right and again, when I filed a report basically describing using the way like I said staff didn't even begin to hint what I did was "bad form."

Also, I would never call a player who spends a lot of time hidden or with a barrier and a hood or mask on, avoiding being near others bad form at all either.

[valeria]

I don't see anything wrong with finding someone's mind and leaving it without saying anything.  Half the time I do it, it's because it was the wrong mind.  Sometimes, it's because I wanted to say something to that person and then forgot what it was or I got too busy.  And sometimes, it's because I just wanted to know if they're around.  And I don't see anything wrong with that.

The way I see it, people whose minds you can't contact aren't open for hanging out for whatever reason.  They've got their barrier up and you can't find them.  When you can find their mind, it's because they're around and available.  I think it's perfectly IC to want to know whether a person is available to interact with you, as opposed to being busy with something else.

[Malifaxis]

I have found that when this happens to me the best thing that I can possibly do is start killing anybody that I think may be valeria.  Because even if they aren't, I get new boots.

On a serious note, no its not "illegal" but does feel douchey when you are the recipient of a sniff.  I view it much the same as if somebody was trying to text me and because I was busy and couldn't answer, they decided to *67 call me to see if I would pick up.

(No it isnt the same thing but it feels douchey like that.)

[Lizzie]

1. Checking to see if someone's around or not only works if your skill-check succeeds. If it fails, you have no way of knowing that it was an actual fail (meaning, the person was logged in and you failed to find them) or if the person wasn't logged in. It's not a flawless method of identification.

2. Any other type of "sniffing" doesn't really bother me all that much. If I'm already using the Way to talk to someone else, it might even be a favor, to not know who just popped in and out, because I won't feel obligated ICly or OOCly to break contact with whoever I'm talking to and respond to the mystery way-er.

3. Not knowing who just contacted me can add to the mystery. It means, to me ICly, that "someone out there" has targetted me, whether on purpose or by mistake, and the circumstances I'm in at that particular moment will dictate which of the two my character chooses as her personal truth. If she's been stalked a lot by people on the street and suddenly gets an anonymous contact, maybe it'll contribute to her paranoia. Maybe she'll try to find her VBFF's mind to get reassurance. Maybe she'll alert a templar that someone is trying to track her down. Who knows! It's just as much fun to let my character's imagination run rampant as it is to know that Amos the Assassin just found her mind.

[Majikal]

Nothing wrong with way sniffing, I simply handle it ic. As a raider, I've turned a casual hold up into a vengeful, murderous stabfest over a suspected way-sniff. Nothing about it can't be handled ic.

Working as intended imo.

[Armaddict]

Pretty much with Malifaxis.

No, it's not against rules.  I'm not sure I'd consider it in the bad form arena, either.

But it's douchey.

[Fujikoma]

Yeah, I just assume someone's trying to kill me and start taking defensive measures.

[Harmless]

Murder, Corruption, and Douchyness? Definitely part of the game then.

1. Checking to see if someone's around or not only works if your skill-check succeeds. If it fails, you have no way of knowing that it was an actual fail (meaning, the person was logged in and you failed to find them) or if the person wasn't logged in. It's not a flawless method of identification.

Maybe a "solution" to this would be some kind of hidden buff to the barrier ability. As it is now, if you fail an attempt to contact someone who has a barrier on, all that is stopping you from trying again is a few seconds delay until you can use contact again.

What if your attempt to contact them and break a barrier is rolled for once, then that roll is kept for the next 10-30+ seconds (barrier skill dependent) for all further attempts to contact? This could be totally hidden from the contacter, meaning that they would have no idea what's going on if they just want to see if someone is online. (As far as I know, this is the first time this particular idea has been suggested).

(In a far away place, Talia is hiding out from her enemies with a barrier on).

You think: "I am going to kill that skeet. She must be about, she usually is..."

>contact talia
You are unable to reach their mind. (talia's barrier won. Now, from this particular attacker's attempts to contact, she is "protected" for some period of time, dependent on his skill (10-30 seconds or so).

(5 seconds later)
>contact talia
You are unable to reach their mind. (This was an automatic fail -- since Talia already won a barrier check in the last few seconds, the attacker doesn't find her).

You think: "Damn, she must be sleeping or somewhere too far..."

You say, in sirihish, to your brainy elf friend: "Hey, Gaj-bait. Use your elfy-brain to find Talia's mind, or try to. She's gotta be around."

The brainy elf narrows his eyes briefly and nods. "Got her."

A system like this wouldn't make "way-sniffing" impossible, but would remove the problem of multiple attempts pretty much breaking a barrier every time. It also introduces a new mechanism of teamwork in using the Way, which is novel.

If you're a lone, masked dude, and you know you make damn good barriers, and you mug a single person, then when your victim tries and fails to break your barrier, you can be pretty sure you've got a window of 10-30+ seconds to do your evil deeds to them and escape, protecting your identity.

Edited to add: Although I didn't think that this issue was a problem at all before, it did occur to me that there are people likely spam-contacting someone they really want to kill. Because I know how the code for barrier/contact works, I have to agree that is kind of "meta." The suggestion here is to make each successful use of barrier to block a contact attempt more meaningful (rather than, you failed to contact, try again in 3 seconds please), and to discourage spam-contacting greatly.

[RogueGunslinger]

What if barrier... actually worked. Not just worked against people with lower skill and wisdom than you, but against people equal in skill most of the time.

And when you had it up you get this message:

It feels as if the tall, muscular man is trying to force their way into your mind.

And you lose a little stun.

[nauta]

Frankly, from the discussions of the last week about the Way, I'd be a big fan of doing one of two things:

1. Make the way a lot more flaky.  This would solve two problems with one stone:

a. the problem of (for me at least) how jarring it is to not be able to way someone who is merely offline (and alive) when, while online and alive, you can pretty much way them consistently.

b. the problem of way sniffing, since way sniffing actually wouldn't be super reliable, but it'd still be kind of reliable.

2. Make the way -work- when you contact people who are alive but offline, although it'd be as if they were alley/krathstruck.  Problems solved:

a. the jarring problem (see 1.a)

b. way sniffing (see 1.b) and this would be solved -completely-.  You simply could not way sniff, period.

c. the are-they-dead problem. 

(Some probably don't see 2.c as a problem.)