beauty ideals

[flurry]

Inspired somewhat by the direction the prostitution thread was taking...and by the OOC survey about men and women..

We know that, on Earth, there are beauty ideals that vary somewhat from culture to culture and person to person.  

I'm curious about how you think it might be different in Zalanthas.   What physical traits or personality traits would be considered "attractive", etc.

[CindyLou]

Pale might be considered attractive and exotic, or possibly repulsive and mutant.

Overweight would be a sign that someone is living well..so I think a rotund woman or man would be considered more attractive than a skinny man or woman. Unless you're an elf, maybe..a fat elf might be considered defective?

Most mutations are seen as just that - mutations. Something to smirk at, or stare at, or gossip about, avoid, pity, run from..depends on the mutation I guess. But a man with a forked tongue, I guess women might like that ( can I get a woo woo? ) .

For me personally, my female characters like males for the most part. Humans (though one of them did have an attraction to a particular elf, but she was an oddball anyway). They tend to prefer a little bulk to the usual trim and fit, and since -I- like long hair on men, my characters tend to like it as well. Unless it's filthy. Then I imagine my characters would want to chop it off just so she wouldn't retch whenever she tried to kiss the guy.

Cleanliness I think would be an awesome attractant. Imagine a man without dirt smudges on his face..

Since artificially-produced toothbrushes don't exist, and because the information is IC and I won't share it, I'll just say that the man who knows how to clean his teeth would probably be considered damned sexy. And no, I'm not talking about using shards of bone as toothpicks, though that does help,  I think

[X-D]

If you are asking for

What physical traits or personality traits would be considered "attractive", etc.

for all races and cultures and sexes on zalanthas, this could be a quite long thread. :wink:

[DrunkenSalarr]

I've actually thought about this quite a bit in the past, and I've come up with quite a few characteristics, at least as far as human females are concerned (since I play human males the majority of the time).  Please keep in mind that these are just generalizations and would probably be the accepted ideals among the general populous of humans.

:arrow: Average height, not too tall, not too short.
:arrow: Few, if any, major scars.
:arrow: Tan to dark skin and hair with brown eyes. (as these are the charastics of the majority as I've always view them, being in a desert world and all)
:arrow: Muscular, but not toned to the extream.
:arrow: Obviously not under-fed (I think obese would be debateable)

For those of you who have seen a picture of or actually met ShaLeah, she is what I would consider extreamly beatiful by Zalanthan standards (as I believe I told her at the first Dragon*Con APM).

[ShaLeah]

In this case I think it's perfectly alright to bring real world ideals into the game. I find my characters are attracted to that which I would be attracted to, regardless of their race. Dwarves, half-elves, skinnies, human, muls... Can't say any of my women have ever felt anything other than amusement or motherly affection towards a half-giant, I read somewhere, can't remember where, that there was a human female pc married to a male half-giant... I couldn't help but wonder which one was smarter.  
I take it back! My one and only dwarf (who was dumber than a sack of shit) married a half-giant and they slept together in the Gaj common room. Heh.  Can't say it was attraction.

- I tend to think color darkens the further south you go.
- I associate wealth and nobility with thickness. Skinny nobles bother me.
- Mutant nobles bother me. It's a clear sign of mixed heritage. If a noble is pure bred, it shouldn't have any mutations at all, no quirri eyes, no blue skin, no scales.
- I think most of the commoner population would be skinny and streaked with dirt of some kind.
- I don't really mind pale people, I think that's a clear sign that they take care of themselves. Just because we live in a harsh desert planet does not mean we have to allow it to marr our skin. The cities are surrounded by walls that will soften the harshness of any storm, most cloaks are hooded, there's veils and hats. Pale, unscarred people are just anal retentive about taking care of their bodies.

Beauty on Zalanthas, as is here, is in the eye of the beholder. Knock yourself out.  

ShaLeah
-who is extremely flattered by DrunkenSalarr's compliment and would definately have remembered such a comment.
So no, DrunkenSalarr, you said no such thing.  

[My 2 sids]

The main purpose of any living thing is to breed.  Beauty has/is/and always will be determined by how well one is expected to reproduce.  This is a well-defined sociological theory.   The two basic elements of beauty rest on physical capabilities to procreate and tokens of economic prosperity to be able to care for a family.  Even on Zalanthas the ability and expectancy to reproduce would guide beauty trends.  

Physically....

:arrow: Women would look strong enough to survive childbirth.  

:arrow: Men would produce enough hair (by respected race) to look strong enough to be able to ward off illness.

:arrow: A light amount of scaring, tanning, 'ugliness' would suggest the person is actually natural and not magical.

:arrow: Older people would show longevity.  

Economic and Status....

:arrow:  :!: Uniforms are sexy.  Anyone associated with a group or house shows they are probably fairly sound and protected, as well as have a paycheck.

:arrow: Attraction would probably fall on one with the citizenship.

:arrow: One who dresses well (for their profession and status) Even if not dressed in silks, a person with more than one outfit shows they are stable enough.  

:arrow: Cleanliness, I think, could go both ways.  On the one hand being clean is good.  It would probably mean freedom from illness and pride.  However, for a commoner to keep themselves –totally- clean or smelling nice... I think that would point to laziness as well as question their morals (do they really see themselves as better than they are?)

:arrow: Tattoos, piercing, etc are considered beautiful.  (Docs say this)


I think the most attractive person fits in with the social class they are in.  When the whole world revolves around status and repetition and tradition people aren't going to go for someone who shows rebellion to the system.  (Unless one is really going for a true rebel and that's a whole new discussion.)   :wink:

[spawnloser]

- I associate wealth and nobility with thickness. Skinny nobles bother me.
- Mutant nobles bother me. It's a clear sign of mixed heritage. If a noble is pure bred, it shouldn't have any mutations at all, no quirri eyes, no blue skin, no scales.

I'll have to disagree on these points...first, I've played a character that apparently had a FAST metabolism.  Couldn't eat much at a time, but was always eating.  I could see the same being the case for any noble, which would affect their weight.

Also, on the subject of mutations in nobles, there is at least one particular noble family that ALL bear a common mutation.  Mutations don't mean that the person isn't purebred, and can often mean just the opposite.  Mutations are just that...a sudden shift in the genetic structure due to some anomoly and can happen in a noble birth just as easily as in a commoner.  Now, whether a noble family would or would not kill their scaley-skinned child or puce-colored baby is a different matter.  Quirri eyes, albinism (which is a mutation), and other things that aren't too screwed up could easily be allowed.  A

On to other things...

:arrow: Being pale usually means the person has the means to keep themself covered, which is an indication of economic well-being and is an attractor in some fashion, no matter how anyone denies it.

:arrow: The intoxicated weaponsmith said something about being overly toned, but I think they meant overly developed.  Toned means that they are firm and is an indicator of endurance more than strength.  Well built, for males or females, would be an attractor in commoners...in nobles, simply not looking fit enough to not be a puddle is probably good enough.  Individual tastes would take over at that point, I would think.

:arrow: Also, what the drunken armor said about height?  I think that's a matter of personal taste...same for eye or hair color, but those that stand out tend to seem exotic and thus, more attractive to some.

I can't think of anything else right now...

[Rindan]

I personally always considered beautiful to be relative to one's profession and personality.  

My big bad ass human mercenary was completely thrilled by a woman who had as many tattoos as him and could give him a fair fight.  He like harsh and rugged woman.  He wanted a woman whom he could fight back to back with and trust with his life.  For him, a brawny lady with a foul mouth was just what he was looking for.  He scorned males and females alike that looked weak.  The traditional f-me PC (male or female) to him was not beautiful.  He wanted a strong woman, and should children ever come of it, strong children.  Anyone who looked 'soft' was simply not his type.  The fact that he was relatively rich meant that he didn't care if 'soft' people tended to be wealthy.  He was wealthy enough doing what he know how to do that he wasn't seeking more wealth in a mate.  He was best pals with any woman who was strong, vulgar, independent, and aggressive, and outright cruel to woman who came off as weak and dependent.

My pick pocket on the other hand was the sort that might want a subtle seductress and thief.  He would want someone cunning and smooth.  Good looks in the traditional sense would be preferred; as such a person has more access to those with enough money to make stealing worthwhile.  The foxy rogue was his type.

My half-breed magiker would take pretty much anything human or half-elven that is a female.  A woman not terrified of a half-breed magiker would be a relatively rare thing, and so probably would also have to be a magiker herself.  It can't get much worse then a half-breed magiker.  Being hated because you are a magiker and a half-breed doesn't leave one with many true friends left.  Such a person probably would not be all that picky so long as they trusted their mate.

Not having strong gender roles complicates beauty.  A male doesn't really need a good female nurture any more then a female needs a male nurturer.  They both are capable of providing the same thing.  They both can threaten and use physical force and violence to protect the family.  The only advantage a woman really has is that she has a pair of breast for feeding the child and a pair of hips the child can fit through.  So long as she can get the child out and feed it, what else would be desirable probably depends upon the role she has to play in the child's upbringing.  A mercenary father might want a mercenary child, and so wants a mercenary wife.  A weak merchant male on the other hand might want a strong female protector, and so dip into his guard pool for strongest woman he can find.  A noble might want to feel powerful, and so looks for the weakest and most diminutive women possible when he is looking to get his rocks off.  

The point is, the male is not stuck in the role of protector because the woman can also be the protector.  This means that which role each needs to play really has a lot of freedom.  A wife too weak to be anything other then a baby maker who takes care of kids is probably no more needed then a wife strong enough to be the protector while the man watches the kids.

[2 Lazy 2 Login ShaL]

Also, on the subject of mutations in nobles, there is at least one particular noble family that ALL bear a common mutation.  Mutations don't mean that the person isn't purebred, and can often mean just the opposite.  Mutations are just that...a sudden shift in the genetic structure due to some anomoly and can happen in a noble birth just as easily as in a commoner.  Now, whether a noble family would or would not kill their scaley-skinned child or puce-colored baby is a different matter.  Quirri eyes, albinism (which is a mutation), and other things that aren't too screwed up could easily be allowed.

Let's assume Zalanthan genetics is the same as modern day genetics. Albinism,  deformations, midgets, giants (by human standards), downsyndrome, spina bifida, etc... those are all normal within the human spectrum of gene abnormality. I'm sure there's a lot more. Aside from toxic waste and God knows what else causes the really fucked up deformations, we can probably deduce that on Zalanthas, mutations are caused by magicks.
Frequently, genetic malformalities are the cause of inbreeding, which we all know the nobles do.
Any mutation that is animalistic in nature, such as tails, feline-like eyes, scales, horns, would be nonexistant when humans are fucking nothing but humans.
Now that you bring that up, I'd like to know the reasoning for that House's mutations.
In my humble opinion, if you're breeding with nothing but humans, those kinds of mutations are not probable.
Doesn't the nobility pride itself on it's crystal clear pure bloodlines? I just don't get the mutation to do it just because it's different. It doesn't make IC sense to me. How would you be able to tell that it's a "normal" mutation for that bloodline versus a night with a half-breed pleasure slave?
I just don't understand how people who pride themselves on their "purity" of bloodlines can find a mutation acceptible and I'd appreciate it if someone enlightened me.   :oops:  

ShaLeah
-who would like to remind you that it's quite alright to have different opinions.

[Angela Christine]

:arrow: Average height, not too tall, not too short.

I can see that.  Among humans being "too tall" might indicate an elven taint in your blood.  Among elves being "too short" might indicate a human taint in your blood.  Half-giants and dwarves seem to have a fairly narrow range of height and weight, so it might not be an issue for them.

:arrow: Few, if any, major scars.

Yeah, I can see that.  

:arrow: Tan to dark skin and hair with brown eyes. (as these are the charastics of the majority as I've always view them, being in a desert world and all)

Meh.  Exotics will always have a place, and "off" skin, hair and eye colours are pretty common.  (The known world may have only been a desert for a thousand years).

:arrow: Muscular, but not toned to the extream.

Yeah, a vein-popping body builder types would be be as unatractive in Zalanthas as in Earth.  It just takes too much food and maintenance, and doesn't necessarily indicate more "useful" strength than a wiry build.

:arrow: Obviously not under-fed (I think obese would be debateable)

Well, Jabba-the-Hutt style obesity would be unnatractive to most people, because it becomes a disability at some point (although fat fetishists would likely be fairly common).  On the other hand "plump" would probably be considered attractive, because a healthy sheath of fat indicates you have the resources to eat more than you need and the ability to survive a famine if the city is besieged, the fields are burned, etc.  Unlesss you are an elf (who don't seem to carry much body fat at all) Twiggy-types wouldn't usually be considered attractive (exept to fetishists) because it either means you are short of food or you have such a high metabolism that you need to eat constantly.

AC

[Carnage]

I agree with Sha. Keep in mind that most 'radical' mutations are often harmful. The human body is an exceedingly delicate thing that has been developed over millions upon millions of years. You won't suddenly have a child one day that has scales, or blue skin, or whatever else you read in X-Men comics. Of course this is suspending our disbelief so I'll pretend that somehow some of these people DID survive and that these mutations were beneficial ( :roll: ).

To point something out, genetic diseases aren't 'caused' by inbreeding. Some genetic disorders are recessive, which means that unless you mate with someone else who has that same recessive gene, you're not going to have a child that has that genetic disease. Your child, however, may still carry that recessive gene. If two people with the same recessive genes have children, there is a chance that their children may have the two recessive genes paired together, giving them that genetic disease. There's also a chance that they may not. What inbreeding does is increase the chance that those two genes might come together, causing that genetic disorder. There's some sort of chart that maps out the probability of a dominant and recessive gene popping up, but for some reason I can't remember the name of it. Phenotype, maybe? In short, genetic diseases ARE NOT the result of inbreeding. Genetic diseases are the result of certain genes matching up. Inbreeding may increase your chances of having a child with a genetic disorder but it's not going to be a 'direct cause'.

Any mutation that is animalistic in nature, such as tails, feline-like eyes, scales, horns, would be nonexistant when humans are fucking nothing but humans.

Agreed. You don't suddenly have a child one day who has cat-like eyes. It would take many, many, many years of slow change for this to happen. Evolution works slowly and based on advantages. There was a relatively simple theory I heard a while back about why snakes are the only lizards without legs. It went along the lines of that they originally had them but snakes higher from the ground may have been easier prey. So which snakes survive more? Snakes with shorter and shorter legs. The snakes with shorter legs live longer and spread on their genetic code of shorter legs. This keeps happening over thousands of years, until eventually it gets reduced to the legs finally being needless and that it's better for the snake to be without them. It's not a scientific fact that that happened but a good example of why and how evolution works. A snake didn't crawl out of an egg one day with no legs.

It doesn't make IC sense to me. How would you be able to tell that it's a "normal" mutation for that bloodline versus a night with a half-breed pleasure slave?

Exactly.

[Malifaxis]

You have some good points, Carnage, but as has been stated many times by many people (staff, high profile players, helpers, and yourself) this is not Earth.

Evolution does occur on a slow scale on Earth, yes, but what we don't have on earth, namely a high power force called Magick, could easily tweak that.  Perhaps, to use the feline eyes example, there was a curse put on that bloodline somewhere in the past?  Perhaps some mother was addicted to an odd and specific combination of spice, and took those spices every day, and gave birth to a line of children with skin that is an extreme abberation?

Mutations do occur in real life earth, seemingly with no explicable reason... extra fingers, an extended spine that appears to be a short tail, hermaphrodites... some abberations are more common than others, for example double-jointedness, the unibrow, male pattern baldness.  These mutations (because that is what they are, they are a deviation from the 'normal' genetic code) are not seen in our culture as being 'mutations' but merely as familial traits.  Male pattern baldness does have a high ratio of transferrence from father to son.  In a more severe and radically magickly active world like Zalanthas, why is it hard to believe that familial traits would also be more severe and radical?

I do agree that x-men style mutations are something we should avoid... but then again, how can we be sure that elementalists are not some sort of mutation that 'allows' them to be in contact with the elemental plane?  There have been families of magickers (from what I have heard at least) on Zalanthas, some of the children were normal, but a higher than normal amount were magickly active.  (I hope that isn't too IC, I'll strip it if it is)

I, for one, am *very* glad that we don't have a tuluki mutant running around with adamantium bones, or the ability to fire blasts of pink energy from his/her eyes, or that knows how to throw explosive Kruth cards.  I think this is something we should definitely avoid... but I honestly see no harm with small genetic mutations like feline eyes.  There's no code effect or anything, they're just as bloody blind as us at night, and I think it adds a nice bit of flavor.

Btw, evolution and mutation are completely, completely different meanings:

Mutation: Noun-
1 - The act or process of being altered or changed.
2 - An alteration or change, as in nature, form, or quality.
(Genetics.)
a- A change of the DNA sequence within a gene or chromosome of an organism resulting in the creation of a new character or trait not found in the parental type.
b- The process by which such a change occurs in a chromosome, either through an alteration in the nucleotide sequence of the DNA coding for a gene or through a change in the physical arrangement of a chromosome.
c- A mutant.

Evolution: noun
1- A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form. See Synonyms at development.
2-
a- The process of developing.
b- Gradual development.
3- Biology.
a- Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species.
b- The historical development of a related group of organisms; phylogeny.
4- A movement that is part of a set of ordered movements.
5- Mathematics. The extraction of a root of a quantity.

Mutation is sudden.  Evolution is not.  Hence the difference in terms.

[Carnage]

Mutations and evolution go hand in hand. Mutations can be anything, from hair loss (like you said) to having long legs. To go back to my snake example, it's a mutation for those legs to grow shorter and shorter. However, each time the legs grew shorter it was beneficial. Mutation is all around us. My father was six feet tall and my mother is around five feet eight omcjes or so. I'm six feet and two inches. Going back directly in my line, through grandparents, none were really as tall as my father. Low and behold I'm taller than him. That's a mutation.

Now, in this day and age, mutations like that mean jack shit. In the wilds, however, that may have given me an advantage. I could have longer legs and be faster than a predator. Every edge counts. On the other hand, my larger size may make it harder for me to hide in brush and evade something. There's a variety of factors. If it's an advantage, I'll live on to breed more children than someone with shorter legs who can't run away from a predator as quickly. My children, in turn, will have a chance at my additional height and longer legs and one or two may mutate and be shorter or taller than me. Spread that on for thousands of years and -that- is evolution. It's derived from a mutation.

Genetic variation and sexual reproduction is the peak of evolution. There was a man in California who had many sexual partners and unsafe sex. Some of these partners had AIDS. After years of testing and such, this man was found to be completely immune to AIDS. It's a mutation of some sort that his immune system is able to defeat AIDS. He's a homosexual, ironically enough, but if he went on to have children there is a chance that they may be immune to AIDS. If there's a great AIDS epidemic you could be assured that the best of his lineage (the ones immune to AIDS) would live through it and go on to breed more and more.

Understand? Without mutations, evolution could not occur.

[spawnloser]

For those that want an explanation for why a particular noble bloodline all has feline eyes and it is 'tolerated' by the family, ask the staff.  Don't expect an answer, though, as I would guess that that is IC information.

[Malifaxis]

Excellently stated, and yes, I do understand completely.

I guess what I am having a problem understanding is how these familial bloodlines would not happen.  Different mutations have different probability factors of passing on successfully.  For example, diabetes is a genetic condition, but sometimes it skips generations, as does baldness.  Male pattern baldness however, has a much higher rate of transfer from parent to offspring than diabetes does.

In an attempt to re-rail the thread's point, let me throw it this way:

In the case of people with fur, feline eyes, or four breasts that shoot honey... some people are going to find those characteristics attractive.  In our world (where they exist much to my eternal chagrin) we call these people "Furrys."  If that mutation has a high possibility of transfer, and those people breed, then why should the whole family eventually not have it?  Perhaps the heads of this family are of the opinion that this factor should be passed on, and kill off all the 'abberants' with 'normal' eyes?

To continue from personal experience, one of my PCs had a very distinct skin tone.  This PC of mine was propositioned by no less than five 'normal' PC women, two mutants, and a female noble.  Apparently they found the mutation extremely attractive... which totally blew my mind.  Creating the character I was totally of the opinion that there would be very little interest in my PC sexually... but as I played, it quickly came apparent that a great deal of females had an unfathomable attraction for 'my junk.'

I know I started this post in an attempt to re-rail the discussion... and I was going to post my opinions of Zalanthan beauty and whatnot... but the fact of the matter is that The Daily Show and Tough Crowd just came on, and now I can't remember what exactly I was going to say.  So, uhh, I'm gonna shut up now.

Malifaxis
-Who just can't stop laughing at the irony of this statement:

Any mutation that is animalistic in nature, such as tails, feline-like eyes, scales, horns, would be nonexistant when humans are fucking nothing but humans.

[Callisto]

Freaks are non-stop fun no matter how you look at it, so who cares if its a throw in the face of sound evolutionary theory?

Nothing like winking at someone with a double eye-lid and being able to scratch both sides of your ass at the same time thanks to the two hands growing out of your right wrist. I won't get started on how much fun it is to step on some muties tail as they walk past.

Freaks are good, the stranger, the better.

[Frog Fairy]

I think the most important mistake that people do when applying the modern western beauty ideals on Zalanthas is the aforementioned fatness issue.

Of course it should be considered high status to be overweight on Zalanthas!

Hardly anyone could afford keeping flesh on their bones.

In an elite society, things that only the elite can afford/achieve would generally become awed and considered high status.

Sure, maybe someone extremely obese rolling down the street might be ridiculed because they would look kind of funny.
But being chubby, fat, fleshy, rotund, whatever - that should be a sign of unusual wealth and therefore something people would go "oooh that person must be rich and important" about.

Similar to how long fingernails, pale skin and soft hands would be considered a sign of high status.

A pet peeve of mine is seeing people use an overweight PCs weight against them, as in "you fat bitch" or whatever.
It shouldn't be an insult to call someone fat in Zalanthas.

[Kalden]

Considering the food that many more powerful clans serve, it wouldn't be that hard to get fat. The noble and merchant houses' mess halls are very generous.

But still, I definitely agree with you.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I read some where that primative, low-tech, and/or tribal societies tend to glorify plump, or even obese women. Beyond that, the second most favored type are the large-breasted. I think that refers to the world in general, though... It's not like you'd go to a beauty pageant in the amazon and see the chubby woman getting first place and the busty one getting second, heh. It's a generalization.

I'm not sure how that applies to Zalanthas (possibley not at all, heh), but it's a good starting point in my opinion.

[Barzalene]

I can only think of two cross the board criteria

First healthy skin. I don't mean free from the scars of hard living, but free from a surfeit of keloid scarring or otherwise mangled.

The other thing is smell. Even in a world where everyone stinks with a year's worth of sweat some people are going to smell worse than others. People who are in some ways sickly are going to smell bad and that's going to be a turn off. Some people just smell better than other people probably the production or the retardation of production of certain enzymes.

[flurry]

Bumping this ancient thread to respond to the subtopic over on the other thread about beauty ideals.

What I do think would be REALLY cool, though, is if we DID have a doc that talked about Zalanthan beauty standards and what would be seen as desirable and sexy and what wouldn't. I don't think it would solve the f-me stereotyping, but at least we could know what was considered attractive and not in Zalanthan terms and base our descriptions off of that.

I agree and some of the stuff in this thread could be a good start for that doc.

And I love Intrepid's idea (over there) for a doc about well-known physical traits about noble and merchant families.

[Intrepid]

Right on.  I was considering starting a new thread about this.

I agree with Frog Fairy on this one: Fat people should be envied, not
reviled, on Zalanthas.  It might not be beautiful, but if it's due to comfort
rather than a physical condition, that person has lead a life of privilege.

[JollyGreenGiant]

And I love Intrepid's idea (over there) for a doc about well-known physical traits about noble and merchant families.

Some physical traits appear in the clan documentation for noble and merchant families (e.g. Kuraci women all have beautiful flowing nose-hair moustaches) but I'm torn between saying "This would be cool because then you'd see someone with orange eyes and know they had Kasix blood" and thinking it's equally cool when the puzzle pieces click in your own mind ("Hey, I think every single Kassigarh I've ever seen had teal hair!")

[Intrepid]

I think you're more likely to see pcs wanting to be the exception from
the docs, JGG.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I think you're more likely to see pcs wanting to be the exception from the docs, JGG.

I've seen enough Fales to disagree.