VNPC vs PC Realities

[James de Monet]

I've noticed this a number of times over the past year and it saddens me. Please fix.

Fuji, I realize I'm probably oversimplifying your position, but it sounds like you're saying "sometimes things happen to my character that I don't like".  To which my response would probably be "working as intended".

Getting pressed into service is probably a very really concern on Zalanthas. Is there a reason you can't deal with it IC?

[wizturbo]

I've noticed this a number of times over the past year and it saddens me. Please fix.

Fuji, I realize I'm probably oversimplifying your position, but it sounds like you're saying "sometimes things happen to my character that I don't like".  To which my response would probably be "working as intended".

Getting pressed into service is probably a very really concern on Zalanthas. Is there a reason you can't deal with it IC?

Yup, I agree, nothing to see here.  If you don't want to be pressed into service there are very easy IC things you can do to prevent it.

1)  Don't be seen around those who might be able to press you into service.
2)  Find someone whose strong and can prevent it, and ally with them
3)  Don't appear useful
4)  Refuse, and deal with the consequences.
5)  Do things that make you less appealing, or socially outcast.

Don't want to do these kinds of things?  Thank you for your service, citizen!

[nauta]

I've noticed this a number of times over the past year and it saddens me. Please fix.

Fuji, I realize I'm probably oversimplifying your position, but it sounds like you're saying "sometimes things happen to my character that I don't like".  To which my response would probably be "working as intended".

Getting pressed into service is probably a very really concern on Zalanthas. Is there a reason you can't deal with it IC?

Yup, I agree, nothing to see here.  If you don't want to be pressed into service there are very easy IC things you can do to prevent it.

1)  Don't be seen around those who might be able to press you into service.
2)  Find someone whose strong and can prevent it, and ally with them
3)  Don't appear useful
4)  Refuse, and deal with the consequences.
5)  Do things that make you less appealing, or socially outcast.

Don't want to do these kinds of things?  Thank you for your service, citizen!

To be fair (or in defense of Fuji) this stuff happens to us who like to play social outcasts a lot, and there are two basic points I want to toss out:

1. People in leadership roles (especially nobles) should try to respect to virtual population vs. PC population.  Just because my rat or elf is the only PC in the room doesn't mean you have to pick on them - pick on that virtual breed instead.

2. Yes, avoidance is an IC option but its totally a boring OOC option: the fun stuff happens in public places (sometimes), and I should feel safe(ish) to take my elf or rat into the Gaj or to walk the streets, since: I'm one among many many many. 

As with anything (1) and (2) are just, like, "sorta".  It's fun sometimes to be pressed into service or accused of something just because: rat or elf.  But at other times, it isn't very fun at all.

[BadSkeelz]

So, you wanna be left alone, but also don't want to avoid people...

[Delirium]

I want my character's social standing to be taken into account as if it were actually being compared to the rest of the virtual population. I want to play a grubby, desperate, dirty indie without someone swooping in to "save" them with an offer they'd be mad to refuse in-character, but which sounds OOCly unappealing to me.

I think that's what Fuji and nauta are getting at, and if so, I completely agree.

[Desertman]

I want my character's social standing to be taken into account as if it were actually being compared to the rest of the virtual population. I want to play a grubby, desperate, dirty indie without someone swooping in to "save" them with an offer they'd be mad to refuse in-character, but which sounds OOCly unappealing to me.

I think that's what Fuji and nauta are getting at, and if so, I completely agree.

+OVER 9000

Everybody wants to be the hero, but sometimes, I don't want to be saved. 

[BadSkeelz]

I guess. They sound kind of whiny since they're both speaking in the context of playing breeds and elfs which are, by and large, unemployable. Especially elfs. Makes me think they're more objecting to being forcibly "volunteered" to test Lord Amos von Braun's rockettower on a trip to the White Moon.

As far as general recruiting of real people goes, yes, leaders should definitely remember there's a lot of virtual NPCs who would love the job.  The healthiest attitude I think for recruiters is "Fuck you, why SHOULD I hire you?" Make people work for it and prove themselves interesting.

Pressing people in to service should be reserved for expendable jobs.

[RogueGunslinger]

I guess. They sound kind of whiny since they're both speaking in the context of playing breeds and elfs which are, by and large, unemployable.

Fuji explicitly said humans.

No, it's more like you have a 'rinther. And you pretty much 95% stay in the 'rinth. But you live long, so people come to know who you are. And then, since you're the only person who's apparently capable of surviving in the 'rinth and probably have useful abilities, suddenly every noble, templar, aide and soldier is trying to rope you into being their pawn/spy. And they're doing it just because you've survived longer than other people. And you obviously can't say no, because then you have incredibly powerful and high-positioned people wanting to kill you, because if you're not an ally, you're an enemy.

At least that's something I've personally found annoying.


Edit: I should state it wasn't really a big deal, just have to start killing them off to send the proper 'No'. But it doesn't seem very realistic, in the context of the thousands of 'rinthers who are surviving just like you.

[Fujikoma]

I guess. They sound kind of whiny since they're both speaking in the context of playing breeds and elfs which are, by and large, unemployable.

Fuji explicitly said humans.

No, it's more like you have a 'rinther. And you pretty much 95% stay in the 'rinth. But you live long, so people come to know who you are. And then, since you're the only person who's apparently capable of surviving in the 'rinth and probably have useful abilities, suddenly every noble, templar, aide and soldier is trying to rope you into being their pawn/spy. And they're doing it just because you've survived longer than other people. And you obviously can't say no, because then you have incredibly powerful and high-positioned people wanting to kill you, because if you're not an ally, you're an enemy.

At least that's something I've personally found annoying.

THIS too. I mean, I understand your sponsored role or hard-earned leadership role can get lonely and when you see that one charming individual that just captivates your imagination, or maybe just a pair of boobs, in some cases, you feel like they would fill a void in your RP and all, and sometimes don't make the best hiring decision because, heh, boobs. Number one, the PC in question may not be interested in the role, or the player might not be interested in the role, and this can be to differing digrees, depending on the PC and player in question, and what kind of concept they're playing out. Number two, they may not be a good fit with your other employees, and while I understand conflict is at the core of the game, an alarming number of PCs are pressed into some jobs that, like another poster said, should be like, WTF do you have for me? I think I'll go with Amos the vNPC grebber instead, as well as maybe they just don't want that kind of pressure. Number three, they may have a secret magicker breed lover, which, while dodge the recruiter can be an interesting game for a while, unrealistic persistence and insistence can really harm the gaming experience of another for no other reason than, well, they were sitting at the bar and said something interesting and harmless.

Saying "Shit happens, either hide in a cave in a desert or don't play if you don't like it" doesn't really address the issue, there are plenty of starving newbies that could use your guidance and assistance, and this is the perfect opportunity. This is why I don't play humans. And doing socially undesirable things in certain positions is a good way to get yourself fed to the Gaj, just sayin'.

[Gimfalisette]

Edit: I should state it wasn't really a big deal, just have to start killing them off to send the proper 'No'. But it doesn't seem very realistic, in the context of the thousands of 'rinthers who are surviving just like you.

I know, right? And then when I'm playing a templar, it's like everyone in the whole city comes to me to solve their problems with the law, as if there aren't dozens of NPC and VNPC templars around that they could be asking instead. It's super annoying!

Or when I'm playing a Kadian and I'm the only one who logs in during their playtime, EVERYONE insists on buying clothes from me! Guys, please go to your VNPC Kadians for stuff sometimes!

In this thread: We whine about how playing long-lived PCs provides us with more interaction opportunities.

[MeTekillot]

PCs are the exceptional examples of the vNPC population, in at least one way. Maybe you're exceptional because you're the breed that the noble picks out of the crowd to harass, or you're the 'rinther who Templars choose to have their ear to the ground in the 'rinth.

[RogueGunslinger]

Edit: I should state it wasn't really a big deal, just have to start killing them off to send the proper 'No'. But it doesn't seem very realistic, in the context of the thousands of 'rinthers who are surviving just like you.

I know, right? And then when I'm playing a templar, it's like everyone in the whole city comes to me to solve their problems with the law, as if there aren't dozens of NPC and VNPC templars around that they could be asking instead. It's super annoying!

Or when I'm playing a Kadian and I'm the only one who logs in during their playtime, EVERYONE insists on buying clothes from me! Guys, please go to your VNPC Kadians for stuff sometimes!

In this thread: We whine about how playing long-lived PCs provides us with more interaction opportunities.

More like we're complaining about how playing certain types of roles with long-lived pc's creates unrealistic interaction opportunities that can make it irritating to play the concept we want to.

But you'll see it however you like.

[Fujikoma]

Edit: I should state it wasn't really a big deal, just have to start killing them off to send the proper 'No'. But it doesn't seem very realistic, in the context of the thousands of 'rinthers who are surviving just like you.

I know, right? And then when I'm playing a templar, it's like everyone in the whole city comes to me to solve their problems with the law, as if there aren't dozens of NPC and VNPC templars around that they could be asking instead. It's super annoying!

Or when I'm playing a Kadian and I'm the only one who logs in during their playtime, EVERYONE insists on buying clothes from me! Guys, please go to your VNPC Kadians for stuff sometimes!

In this thread: We whine about how playing long-lived PCs provides us with more interaction opportunities.

Interaction opportunities we really didn't ask for, didn't seek out, actively avoid, and find us anyway. This does happen, and I understand, it's going to happen, that's part of the game. I'm speaking of the FREQUENCY with which it happens, which is alarming to me. It's like the time I saw a (censored) violently and rudely badger a spice addict, who just wanted to puff a pipe and talk about how life sucks, over refusing employment. It was kind of immersion breaking, honestly, and it really shouldn't come down to "recruit the world!" or "recruit the world, with the exception of those who bear not boobs!". If I want your f-ing job, I'll f-ing come to you, beg and scrape and plead for it. That's how it works, really.

[MeTekillot]

Solution to make everyone happy: consent for plot involvement. great idea or no?

[Marauder Moe]

I don't necessarily buy into the idea that PCs are all visibly exceptional.  However, I do feel like PCs are fair game over v/NPCs.  PCs pick on PCs.  V/NPCs pick on v/NPCs.  (People who complain about being singled out as a PC never consider all the times that v/NPCs left them alone for being a PC.)

Solution to make everyone happy: consent for plot involvement. great idea or no?

Terrible idea.

[LauraMars]

Expecting a noble to pick on a vnpc elf instead of you is a little unrealistic from a play-ability standpoint.  This is a game that fosters interaction...you aren't going to get much interaction talking to an imaginary elf, despite how realistic it might be.  However, mega props to the noble who actually emotes about their guard shoving aside ten elves to get to you, because he really doesn't like your hair.

[RogueGunslinger]

The solution is to just take into account the game world you're playing in when it comes to interacting with others. Like I said, it's not really a big deal, but the fact of the matter is there are multiple situations where being singled out as a player can have a negative impact on your enjoyment of the game(being the only PC elf and therefore the one who's always harassed every time a burglary happens). If those things happened less it would be great, and interaction for the sake of interaction is NOT a good enough reason to keep doing it.

Expecting a noble to pick on a vnpc elf instead of you is a little unrealistic from a play-ability standpoint.  This is a game that fosters interaction...you aren't going to get much interaction talking to an imaginary elf, despite how realistic it might be.

It's not that they're picking on you, its WHY they're picking on you. If they were doing it just because you're an elf, that would be one thing, but that's not really what we're complaining about. It's when they do it because you're the only PC elf ergo you're the thief. Or they're trying to hire you simply because your pc has lived a while, despite the fact you're a drunkard, fuck-up loudmouth who hates the Highlord.

[CodeMaster]

Edit: I should state it wasn't really a big deal, just have to start killing them off to send the proper 'No'. But it doesn't seem very realistic, in the context of the thousands of 'rinthers who are surviving just like you.

I know, right? And then when I'm playing a templar, it's like everyone in the whole city comes to me to solve their problems with the law, as if there aren't dozens of NPC and VNPC templars around that they could be asking instead. It's super annoying!

Or when I'm playing a Kadian and I'm the only one who logs in during their playtime, EVERYONE insists on buying clothes from me! Guys, please go to your VNPC Kadians for stuff sometimes!

In this thread: We whine about how playing long-lived PCs provides us with more interaction opportunities.

(PSA: accusing people of whining (even if they are:)) is probably going to raise the temperature in the thread... let's go eat huh??)

Personally, I don't fault anyone for preferentially interacting with PCs.  Multi-user dungeon, right?  But you cited two examples of IC and OOC leadership positions, whereas I suspect the other posters are focusing on playing the povo median.  Maybe that's a distinction worth making as the thread goes forward.

[Harmless]

If I make a human who isn't a rinther or tribal, I pretty much made the human concept with some kind of human guild in mind as "would accept if hired by."

I lay low in the meantime.

If I'm playing a rinther and want to stay "indie" I just don't lose the accent.

I also roll a lot of half-elves and elves just for this reason: don't feel like clan life right now, want to mingle among the lower classes. Done!

So, I think there are existing ways to deal with it, but the problem is obviously that avoiding people is boring for RP purposes, and people want to relax. The key is, join the lower classes PROPERLY, maybe whore yourself to a breed or something just for the coins and a good time, get a spice habit, etc. If you want to be ignored by the upper-crust, really stink it up!

[Marauder Moe]

You can also try picking your nose during the interview.

[BadSkeelz]

Boy, could I tell you guys about failed character concepts...

No, it's more like you have a 'rinther. And you pretty much 95% stay in the 'rinth. But you live long, so people come to know who you are. And then, since you're the only person who's apparently capable of surviving in the 'rinth and probably have useful abilities, suddenly every noble, templar, aide and soldier is trying to rope you into being their pawn/spy. And they're doing it just because you've survived longer than other people. And you obviously can't say no, because then you have incredibly powerful and high-positioned people wanting to kill you, because if you're not an ally, you're an enemy.

At least that's something I've personally found annoying.


Edit: I should state it wasn't really a big deal, just have to start killing them off to send the proper 'No'. But it doesn't seem very realistic, in the context of the thousands of 'rinthers who are surviving just like you.

Yeah, it sucks to prove yourself useful and everything. If you don't want to become a pawn, don't step anywhere near the chess board. Or better yet, try to become a player yourself.

[Fujikoma]

Boy, could I tell you guys about failed character concepts...

No, it's more like you have a 'rinther. And you pretty much 95% stay in the 'rinth. But you live long, so people come to know who you are. And then, since you're the only person who's apparently capable of surviving in the 'rinth and probably have useful abilities, suddenly every noble, templar, aide and soldier is trying to rope you into being their pawn/spy. And they're doing it just because you've survived longer than other people. And you obviously can't say no, because then you have incredibly powerful and high-positioned people wanting to kill you, because if you're not an ally, you're an enemy.

At least that's something I've personally found annoying.


Edit: I should state it wasn't really a big deal, just have to start killing them off to send the proper 'No'. But it doesn't seem very realistic, in the context of the thousands of 'rinthers who are surviving just like you.

Yeah, it sucks to prove yourself useful and everything. If you don't want to become a pawn, don't step anywhere near the chess board. Or better yet, try to become a player yourself.

That's the deal, you don't -need- to get close to it to get singled out, although, should you get caught that one time sneaking a peek, hooooo. Nope nope nope nope. Find someone else. I have my own plots.

[BadSkeelz]

"Screw your plots, you're a rinthi/elf/undesirable, your plots aren't as important as my plots."

That's a perfectly valid argument for anyone higher on the pecking order to have. Don't like it? Fight back. Agree to whatever they want and then just never contact them again. Turn avoiding their plot in to another one of your plots. It's not that hard to do.

[Fujikoma]

"Screw your plots, you're a rinthi/elf/undesirable, your plots aren't as important as my plots."

That's a perfectly valid argument for anyone higher on the pecking order to have. Don't like it? Fight back. Agree to whatever they want and then just never contact them again. Turn avoiding their plot in to another one of your plots. It's not that hard to do.

It's easier to do as a rinthi/elf/breed... that's not -my- argument. I agree here, but yeah, if you dissappear, you probably died doing Lord Fancypants's dirty work. Oh, hey, you're alive! It's been a while, no one really cares you ducked out, just so long as you wait... usually.

I'm talking about humans and jobs, like, real jobs. I played a human once. Before a RL week was up I got scooped into Borsail while I was drunk OOC and making an ass of myself. It was entertaining, I'll admit, for the very short time it lasted. I walked into Red's, refused to bow, and demanded booze, walked out with a job.

[Patuk]

Now that I am an older and wiser man than I was a year and a half ago, I realise that I am guilty of many of the recruitment-related parts of this thread.

But dammit people, does it suck when your clan is empty for two months on end because none of the local tall muscular men want to join to have some fun.

[James de Monet]

I don't think this is an invalid complaint.  Sometimes you make a PC with a plan for their life and it gets jacked up because you're the only human around and Sergeant Amos needs a warm body.  That happens. I can see why it would piss you off.

The problem is that expecting Sergeant Amos's player to fix it is not the solution.  He needs a warm body, remember? You're the only one. Who is he supposed to hire? He can't hire vNPCs to do real stuff.

Also, why would you ever want him to assume that you don't want interaction? Unwanted interaction is better than boredom every day of the week and twice on Wednesday.  Asking players not to interact unless they're sure the other player wants it is a terrible idea for the game as a whole.  If you don't want interaction, you're probably going to have to manage that yourself.

Yes, ideally, players should be begging to be hired. That doesn't happen. Leaders should be fending them off with a stick. That doesn't happen. Leaders need players to make their clans fun. They're going to take what they can get. Good on them.  Until those facts change, I wouldnt hold my breath to see this problem change.  It might suck for you personally, but it's for the good of the game, IMO.


Besides, "I can't, I promised [vNPC] I would do [big important thing for him]." is a perfectly valid excuse, that shouldn't necessarily precipitate bad will, and anyone can use it.

It's not realistic that leaders should have to track down their own minions, but they have to. It's not realistic that your PC should have to turn down an amazing job opportunity, but you might have to.  Maybe just come up with a good, IC reason beforehand?

[BadSkeelz]

I'm talking about humans and jobs, like, real jobs. I played a human once. Before a RL week was up I got scooped into Borsail while I was drunk OOC and making an ass of myself. It was entertaining, I'll admit, for the very short time it lasted. I walked into Red's, refused to bow, and demanded booze, walked out with a job.

I would have just beaten you to death with a wine cask, but then we'd be having a different complaints thread about asshole nobles abusing crimcode.

I guess I'm fortunate in that I hate being a leader, so whenever I find myself stuck in those roles I can channel the proper levels of contempt and not wanting to be around all you grebbers after my clanwater.

[Patuk]

I just realised we're in a prisoner's dilemma situation here.

Armageddon is interesting if clans are staffed. It is fun for many people if there are many clanned folk out there. Meanwhile, we have many people who prefer playing independents, but benefit from clans being around as well, for when they wish to order items, want political backing, or seek criminal services.

There are three outcomes to the situation: either there is a ton of people playing in clans and the game is a hotbed of conflicting interests, there are a few people who forsake clans since people are in them anyway and so have their cake and eat it too, or everyone says clans just aren't worth it and stop trying altogether.

I kinda think the third situation is often what we have going on. There is an enormous amount of people whose characters won't join any clan, ever, and I can't really say I blame them.

I'm not going to argue on how to improve this, since that isn't the point of this thread. 'Clans suck, wat do' threads exist aplenty.

[Gimfalisette]

<snip>

Everything JdM said.

I just realised we're in a prisoner's dilemma situation here.

This is also very interesting.



We're all here for our own enjoyment, but I also play for the enjoyment of others. If they're having fun, I'm having even more fun than I was before. My PCs almost never end up where I thought they would, and that's always because of other PCs, and I'm OK with that. I don't play this game so that I can rigorously enact my concept.

So yeah, it doesn't matter what I'm playing, everyone always tries to recruit me into whatever. I'm not gonna judge for that.

[CodeMaster]

I don't think this is an invalid complaint.  Sometimes you make a PC with a plan for their life and it gets jacked up because you're the only human around and Sergeant Amos needs a warm body.  That happens. I can see why it would piss you off.

The problem is that expecting Sergeant Amos's player to fix it is not the solution.  He needs a warm body, remember? You're the only one. Who is he supposed to hire? He can't hire vNPCs to do real stuff.

Also, why would you ever want him to assume that you don't want interaction? Unwanted interaction is better than boredom every day of the week and twice on Wednesday.  Asking players not to interact unless they're sure the other player wants it is a terrible idea for the game as a whole.  If you don't want interaction, you're probably going to have to manage that yourself.

Yes, ideally, players should be begging to be hired. That doesn't happen. Leaders should be fending them off with a stick. That doesn't happen. Leaders need players to make their clans fun. They're going to take what they can get. Good on them.  Until those facts change, I wouldnt hold my breath to see this problem change.  It might suck for you personally, but it's for the good of the game, IMO.


Besides, "I can't, I promised [vNPC] I would do [big important thing for him]." is a perfectly valid excuse, that shouldn't necessarily precipitate bad will, and anyone can use it.

It's not realistic that leaders should have to track down their own minions, but they have to. It's not realistic that your PC should have to turn down an amazing job opportunity, but you might have to.  Maybe just come up with a good, IC reason beforehand?

Thoughtful reply... it's good to phrase these debates from both perspectives (grebber and leader), which is maybe what this thread needs.

My current thinking is that the reason someone's planned-out PC can actually get jacked up (as you say) by the recruitment process is because there's such a huge gulf between Joe Grebber and the lowest rung of the clan ladder.  These players don't want an amazing job opportunity, but hey - a shitty job opportunity might actually appeal to them.

If Vennant was hiring the dregs of society to push in the chairs, clean up the puke, and pick the mugs up off all the tables in the Gaj, I bet you there are players who would take that kind of temporary work.  Doubly so if it gave you access to a crappy little back room to rest in with a sometimes half-full bucket of grey water.

Instead, the lowest rung of the employment ladder (unless you're doing the indie jobs or paying to join the T'zai Byn - that's worth reiterating: players will PAY to join one of the lowest-class clans in the game, which sounds as if it's among the most popular, too!) is something like "official recruit of X under the direct observation of high merchant/noble Y"...

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm super confused.

Why are we complaining about PCs interacting with PCs?

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm super confused.

Why are we complaining about PCs interacting with PCs?

I don't think anyone has complained about interaction, please keep that straw-dummy in the sparring shed. It's more the faulty logic that led the the interaction that is irksome in a way almost akin to guild-sniffing. Something like the elf PC who gets targeted because he's the only long lived elf around who could have the skills to burglarize high-end apartments, while the newer elf pc's will be ignored because they're obviously useless.

Anyways this was another one of those Random Arm Thoughts split-off threads. Random thoughts don't tend to have much depth or consistency for long discussion. It basically just comes down to "I don't like when players do this." And "Here's reasons why players do this."