City-elves and stuff.

[Nyr]

Fun is the only justification anyone needs to do anything.  I wish all this bureaucratic, red tape bullshit would go away and Arma would return to a game where the defining paradigm was "Fuck yes, that sounds awesome, let's do it!"

Armageddon is not Agrestic. It's not a precision engine. It doesn't need to be master planned. All it needs is talented, dedicated storytellers that are given creative freedom to bring the world to life.

Those are some interesting theories on how the game should be played and staffed.  Thanks!

[Eyeball]

Fun is the only justification anyone needs to do anything.  I wish all this bureaucratic, red tape bullshit would go away and Arma would return to a game where the defining paradigm was "Fuck yes, that sounds awesome, let's do it!"

Armageddon is not Agrestic. It's not a precision engine. It doesn't need to be master planned. All it needs is talented, dedicated storytellers that are given creative freedom to bring the world to life.

Those are some interesting theories on how the game should be played and staffed.  Thanks!

Thanks in turn for the forbearance.

[Tetra]

NO TRIBES

I can parse language with the best of them.  My argument against that particular interpretation of the family role call rule is is that you're not creating a tribe, you're creating a family.  All of your elven family members still have to be within one degree of affinity of each other or whatever.  Maybe the rule should be, your elven family tribe can't be larger than your starting family, but your elven family should still be able to call its blood relatives tribe mates.

All elves have tribes, it's in the documentation.  By permitting elven family role calls but not allowing them to call themselves tribemates, it effectively forbids players from doing a family role call for an elven family.

Start a clan request, show the staff that you want to demonstrate your 'tribe' and their agendas within the game world and any currently running plots.  I mean, if you -really- want to play a celf with a close-knit group/tribe, there's literally nothing stopping you from doing it.  Just because two coded clans close for applications, doesn't mean you can't still roleplay it.


It would literally take you a week of playtime and some charisma to achieve your goal(depending on how assertive/creative you get).  If you find yourself feeling, "Hey, this actually a lot of work," or "I don't have time to see this through", or "There's other important things that need more attention".  Well.....That's probably how staff feel about c-elf tribes at the moment.

[Tetra]

Oops!  Double.

[HavokBlue]

No, you actually cannot roleplay your city elf with a tribe.

This is literally not allowed unless you join the Byn or Kurac and call them your tribe.

[CodeMaster]

My thoughts on this...

Dark Sun (comprising a large part of Armageddon's source material) turned many of the D&D fantasy tropes on their head: DEFILING magick, BALD dwarves, VICIOUS halflings, and tall, tan elves that wander, steal, and live in the moment (leading drastically shorter lifespans than their familiar counterparts).  These 'twists' are part of what makes Dark Sun (and correspondingly Armageddon) such a fresh setting.

Armageddon has taken this bastardization of the elf one step further and introduced a city-bound variety, which is effectively a parasitic, alley and rooftop-dwelling, humanoid rat.  This is some awesome original content and, in my opinion, one of the game's many "national treasures".

Do these city elves *need* tribes?  I am of the (maybe unpopular) opinion that it is a good thing that players can create one of these City Elves outside of a tribe.  First, throwing newish players (especially first-timers) into a tribe would place immediate and intense constraints on their roleplay (in addition to distrust, no riding + limited travel ability, being a third-class citizen, and a prediliction to steal).  Too many constraints and the role might become unfun to play - it may be unable to generate a critical mass of player interest.

Second, this may be an opportunity to further develop and distinguish the OC that is the Armageddon city elf, e.g.:

The elven tribal mentality tends to erode in the face of the scale and the oppression of city life.  In the desert, the elf is the king of his tribal home -- but in the city the elf is a third-class citizen, often (and much to his chagrin) held in less esteem than even a half-elf.  Some elves do cling to tradition and forge tribes in the cities, but family infighting tends to be the norm, rather than the exception in these cases.

It is interesting, then, to observe that a surrogate tribal mentality emerges: a city-bound elf will tend to side with another elf from the same city or settlement before any other.  These alliances are loose at best, and trust still tends to come slowly, but tests of competency (can you run?  can you steal?  are you cautious?) are more common than tests of trust, since a certain affinity already exists.

But clans aren't tribes.  It would be cool if city elves had more clans available to them.

[Harmless]

As has been discussed in prior discussions, there are no tribes but there are crews. A crew is exactly that quote: a surrogate tribal mentality.

I recently had some fun with a city elf who benefited from a "crew." It didn't last, though, because the sheer number of opponents we had was enough to guarantee our destruction/dissolution.

These kinds of problems were discussed in the old thread, I think.

CM: You're right. "More clans available to them." However, from my experience, it isn't about being in a clan, it's just to increase the number of allies you have and reduce the number of enemies. The longest lived city elf I know/knew was in Kurac. The reasons for their longevity are immediately obvious: a powerful backing group.

The "crew" situation that I describe above was an unclanned crew.

So, yes, that would fix it. The question I have is, why isn't this already being pursued by city elves? City elves like to make allies, for selfish reasons. I can completely understand it if the "focus" of a city elf would be to "join a Great Merchant House." But just Kurac isn't ideal at all; Kurac isn't a city clan. There does need to be SOME kind of city clan for city elves to join (besides the Byn, also a desert oriented clan). There are currently none.

[Harmless]

If companies will hire illegal immigrants, Zalanthans will hire elves. Not for their board of executives, but they will be hired.

This idea is brilliant. Have staff animate a spiced-up degenerate family member and suddenly pick out a PC city elf to hire, then immediately promote to sergeant. The family member makes his move permanent through railroaded staff powers and then staff step back and see what happens between the PCs. All of a sudden Salarr / Kadius has a whole new interesting problem on their hands, made even more interesting if the first thing the elf does is hire every elf he trusts from before his promotion, immediately creating a tiny modicum of power.

You know, a city elf sorceror blackmailing a family member into hiring elves (or else face horrifying consequences on the house) would be great, too.

[Molten Heart]

PC raiders would be too difficult to target and wipe out if they have a village/camp, gith or not.

Nevermind, thats what I get for reading the first page, thinking it's the latest page.

[yousuff]

Funny that this thread should appear, I just wrote up a few pages of documentation on a small tribe of Rinthi elves. I sent in a request afew days before I saw this to try and make a family role call based on this tribe, although I doubt staff will give me the go ahead 'because lol no tribes'. I dunno, still gonna try. Lets see where this leads... I'm really hoping it won't be a straight up no, or if it is I'll get a reason why not :p Wish me luck

[RogueGunslinger]

Good luck, man.

[valeria]

NO TRIBES

I can parse language with the best of them.  My argument against that particular interpretation of the family role call rule is is that you're not creating a tribe, you're creating a family.  All of your elven family members still have to be within one degree of affinity of each other or whatever.  Maybe the rule should be, your elven family tribe can't be larger than your starting family, but your elven family should still be able to call its blood relatives tribe mates.

All elves have tribes, it's in the documentation.  By permitting elven family role calls but not allowing them to call themselves tribemates, it effectively forbids players from doing a family role call for an elven family.

Start a clan request, show the staff that you want to demonstrate your 'tribe' and their agendas within the game world and any currently running plots.  I mean, if you -really- want to play a celf with a close-knit group/tribe, there's literally nothing stopping you from doing it.  Just because two coded clans close for applications, doesn't mean you can't still roleplay it.


It would literally take you a week of playtime and some charisma to achieve your goal(depending on how assertive/creative you get).  If you find yourself feeling, "Hey, this actually a lot of work," or "I don't have time to see this through", or "There's other important things that need more attention".  Well.....That's probably how staff feel about c-elf tribes at the moment.

Actually I've already talked with staff about this and I was told that I would not be allowed to band together to form a tribe of PC elves because it is against the family role call rule language.  (I'm not a fan of that application, I think it applies language meant for one thing on another thing that it wasn't ever really meant for, but I've already had that discussion with staff.)

Edit for clarification: I was playing a c-elf at the time and it was the character's goal, I was told it would be unattainable for the OOC reason of it going against the family role call rule language.

[Patuk]

Good luck, man.

[Barsook]

Good luck, man.

[CodeMaster]

Here's part II of my post that I didn't get to -- some clan/employment/role options for elves that would not require a full-fledged family/tribe.  (n.b., this is just me spitballing based on some recent experiences in the game - maybe they're points for discussion.)

1. Superficially, the Guild (or an offshoot of the Guild, or a Guild-like clan) seems like a 'best fit' clan for city elves.  Establish some kind of a scouting/rooftop division that's purely about information gathering for purposes of extortion and blackmail.  Elves get along better with elves, so keep them in one 'unit' devoted to crawling around in dark places.  They're humanoid rats, after all.

2. House Kurac's current non-virtual presence seems (I think) to be desert-oriented and less about smuggling.  Why not more of the latter?  One idea is to have Kurac hire city elves (perhaps exclusively, so as to limit inter-racial conflict) to run spice into the labyrinth, and/or to distribute it to buyers in Allanak proper.  In exchange, such an elf would get access to a backroom, access to a smallish water barrel (that gets filled once per reboot - let the tragedy of the commons run its course), and perhaps involvement in some broader staff-run House Kurac plots.

I really only envision this as a bare-bones "offshoot" of House Kurac: the elf would essentially be clinging to the lowest rung of the Kuraci ladder with no advancement opportunities, but also few strings attached.  If not enough spice is moved, _all_ of these elves would get reprimanded/priveleges revoked/water barrel not refilled or only filled with greyish water/etc.

3. (My least favorite idea of the three) Much as Tuluk has its tattoo checkpoints, certain ungoverned areas of the city states might have established 'racial' checkpoints.  For instance, if you want to get into Market Area X, or into the back area of tent Y where they buy and sell anything, you need an elf to take you in, or to pay a fee.  The obvious analogy is hiring a ranger to guide you through the harsh sand storms around, e.g., Red Storm: "it would be foolhardy to travel without one."  This would give even a day 0 city elf an ultra-basic employment opportunity.

[Tetra]

NO TRIBES

I can parse language with the best of them.  My argument against that particular interpretation of the family role call rule is is that you're not creating a tribe, you're creating a family.  All of your elven family members still have to be within one degree of affinity of each other or whatever.  Maybe the rule should be, your elven family tribe can't be larger than your starting family, but your elven family should still be able to call its blood relatives tribe mates.

All elves have tribes, it's in the documentation.  By permitting elven family role calls but not allowing them to call themselves tribemates, it effectively forbids players from doing a family role call for an elven family.

Start a clan request, show the staff that you want to demonstrate your 'tribe' and their agendas within the game world and any currently running plots.  I mean, if you -really- want to play a celf with a close-knit group/tribe, there's literally nothing stopping you from doing it.  Just because two coded clans close for applications, doesn't mean you can't still roleplay it.


It would literally take you a week of playtime and some charisma to achieve your goal(depending on how assertive/creative you get).  If you find yourself feeling, "Hey, this actually a lot of work," or "I don't have time to see this through", or "There's other important things that need more attention".  Well.....That's probably how staff feel about c-elf tribes at the moment.

Actually I've already talked with staff about this and I was told that I would not be allowed to band together to form a tribe of PC elves because it is against the family role call rule language.  (I'm not a fan of that application, I think it applies language meant for one thing on another thing that it wasn't ever really meant for, but I've already had that discussion with staff.)

Edit for clarification: I was playing a c-elf at the time and it was the character's goal, I was told it would be unattainable for the OOC reason of it going against the family role call rule language.

Sorry to hear that.  It does sound odd that it wouldn't be acceptable.  In my mind, it makes sense that a clan comprised of city elves would be, for all intended purposes, the same as an urbanized tribe.  Thematically, there definitely would be some variance, but the internal structure and operations could essentially remain the same(especially when you consider racial roleplay of elves to begin with).  Were Jaxah Pah and the Guild player created?

On a separate stream of thought, maybe the staff prefers to avoid the use of the term "tribe" for c-elfs because it may blur the lines of what is expected in d-elf tribes.  While both d-elves and c-elves might carry tribal mentalities, there is a difference in functionality, philosophy, attitudes, and expected behaviour that may dilute the former.  Food for thought.

[spicemustflow]

What happened to the Jaxa Pah?

The answer is that it was closed.  It was closed because it doesn't really fit with the mold of what we want to see out of city-elf tribal roles.  It set itself up as a more dominant power than it was.  It erased several smaller groups and emerged as a powerhouse.  It shouldn't have been one.  After one tackle of the documentation to try and bind this tribe together consisting of multiple tribes and concepts all in one, it was closed and tabled for later discussion.

I'm sorry if someone already tackled this, I just skimmed through the thread. but

The original idea for JP was that it was a loose alliance between four elven groups. They don't really trust each other that much and let them into their strongholds. The group just tries to present itself as a monolithic entity to outsiders, while inside squabbles are very much intended to be a thing. That's what I got from the docs and from Shaloonsh's response to a request.

So, can you explain please why the docs were changed at all, instead of just enforcing the divided nature of the clan? Why closing Dariki when the more different groups = the more internal strife? The change pushed the clan into the direction you didn't want it to go, so I'm confused.

[Reiloth]

I imagine Virtual Divided Struggle is difficult to maintain without actual PC presence.

[Saellyn]

Personally a great solution would be to eliminate the elves in the same way that kanks were eliminated.

Dwarves too.

Half-giants as well.

Just humans
Gith
and Mantis

yessss.

I'll mudsex your mantis with my gith.

[Nyr]

What happened to the Jaxa Pah?

The answer is that it was closed.  It was closed because it doesn't really fit with the mold of what we want to see out of city-elf tribal roles.  It set itself up as a more dominant power than it was.  It erased several smaller groups and emerged as a powerhouse.  It shouldn't have been one.  After one tackle of the documentation to try and bind this tribe together consisting of multiple tribes and concepts all in one, it was closed and tabled for later discussion.

I'm sorry if someone already tackled this, I just skimmed through the thread. but

The original idea for JP was that it was a loose alliance between four elven groups. They don't really trust each other that much and let them into their strongholds. The group just tries to present itself as a monolithic entity to outsiders, while inside squabbles are very much intended to be a thing. That's what I got from the docs and from Shaloonsh's response to a request.

So, can you explain please why the docs were changed at all, instead of just enforcing the divided nature of the clan? Why closing Dariki when the more different groups = the more internal strife? The change pushed the clan into the direction you didn't want it to go, so I'm confused.

The original idea for JP didn't last very far past implementation because of the things I laid out earlier.  Despite it being planned out initially as something that worked in the manner you suggested, the reality later on was quite different, as determined by general consensus of staff (and by several players as well).  The sense of progression and layout of the alliance didn't make much sense and the clan was confusing.  We kept it going for a while after streamlining the documentation, progression, and the way the clan actually worked because we agreed at the time that the merit that the clan was built upon was worth trying to see through.  However, it ultimately just didn't work.  We've learned from it and we have plans to make improvements for future implementations, whatever they might be (whether tribal groups or not!).

Also, as you say, it wasn't a tribe, it was an alliance of tribes.  Codedly it also was problematic in that there had to be multiple clans set up on multiple PCs/NPCs, things often broke, etc.  It turned out that alliance clans didn't work too well with the codebase. 

The change pushing the clan in the direction we didn't want it to go--not really true at all.  The things I laid out above were an overview of the reasons why the clan is now closed and why we are looking at other options.  It is not a timeline progression of the decisions we made while working with that clan.  The closing of Dariki for PC play was a decision made because of the fact that of the four tribes in alliance, their docs were the least fleshed out and the most difficult to grasp.  At the time, however, we still did have issues with the perceived strength of this elven tribe (the fact that it was an alliance of a few tribes tends to prove its strength).  If you set up a new NPC tribal alliance in an area and tell everyone "well these guys aren't the big dogs, someone else can stomp them down if they ever get uppity!" and then have no other real coded or virtual "bigger dog" to point at...PCs playing in the alliance will act like they're the big game in town.  NPCs animated would be animated from those groups.  Despite what the word on the street is (virtually), the de facto power would be the tribal alliance because it's coded.  This was something we realized more and more over time.

[Reiloth]

What I think worked great was what was before the JP -- Haruch Kemad as a shadow organization behind the Sandas, and the other tribes were around as flavor roles. You could write Dairiki into your background, and there was the Dairiki House you could sleep at (sort of at your own risk sometimes, IIRC, depending what NPCs were around). I think a simple and elegant solution is to say the tribe alliance broke up, and write up more detailed backgrounds for each tribe (It was only a paragraph blurb back in '06, and actually, there's probably 5000% more documentation on those tribes now that the JP was implemented, so just C/P), and let people roll up elves and use the documentation in their background.

The fun thing about that was -- You might run into a new tribe-member, you might not, but it made the East Side feel much more real, when these background tribes existed independent of coded benefits. I think something similar could happen in Tuluk -- 2-3 non-coded background tribes that people can choose from. Make it so people can't recruit into the tribes (An OOC consideration, so you don't make a gang out of it). I doubt there will be so much interest in these roles that you'll find 8 city elf PCs banding together under the banner of this tribe, but still. Ask that they submit a report once a month, so Staff can keep track of them, etc.

In that way, you accomplish a major point of this game -- RP Backgrounds and Standards that can be monitored by Staff, and pursued by players. As it stands, City Elves definitely need tribes, they don't need clans.

[Armaddict]

What I think worked great was what was before the JP -- Haruch Kemad as a shadow organization behind the Sandas, and the other tribes were around as flavor roles. You could write Dairiki into your background, and there was the Dairiki House you could sleep at (sort of at your own risk sometimes, IIRC, depending what NPCs were around). I think a simple and elegant solution is to say the tribe alliance broke up, and write up more detailed backgrounds for each tribe (It was only a paragraph blurb back in '06, and actually, there's probably 5000% more documentation on those tribes now that the JP was implemented, so just C/P), and let people roll up elves and use the documentation in their background.

The fun thing about that was -- You might run into a new tribe-member, you might not, but it made the East Side feel much more real, when these background tribes existed independent of coded benefits. I think something similar could happen in Tuluk -- 2-3 non-coded background tribes that people can choose from. Make it so people can't recruit into the tribes (An OOC consideration, so you don't make a gang out of it). I doubt there will be so much interest in these roles that you'll find 8 city elf PCs banding together under the banner of this tribe, but still. Ask that they submit a report once a month, so Staff can keep track of them, etc.

In that way, you accomplish a major point of this game -- RP Backgrounds and Standards that can be monitored by Staff, and pursued by players. As it stands, City Elves definitely need tribes, they don't need clans.

Yuuuuup.  Best city elf tribe of all time, with the only caveat being that the announcement of HK as open made it so that everyone 'knew' about how things went eastside.  Even when people asked, and you laughed and said that Haruch Kemad was a spinster's tale told to kids to keep them in line, and even with another clan created to 'mask' it...it just couldn't be kept secret like it was supposed to be.

[HavokBlue]

Gonna continue to say the biggest problem facing the Jaxa Pah was the fact that it was borderline impossible to join, and if there were no PCs in the clan at the time, the circumstances were left to whatever staffer animated for you.

This would lead to silly scenarios like a southside elf being accepted in as a probationary leader type while a rinthi elf is chased out and told to never come back all in the same meeting.

[MeTekillot]

Fun is the only justification anyone needs to do anything.  I wish all this bureaucratic, red tape bullshit would go away and Arma would return to a game where the defining paradigm was "Fuck yes, that sounds awesome, let's do it!"

Armageddon is not Agrestic. It's not a precision engine. It doesn't need to be master planned. All it needs is talented, dedicated storytellers that are given creative freedom to bring the world to life.

Those are some interesting theories on how the game should be played and staffed.  Thanks!

[Norcal]

I'd kind of prefer to see tribal elves driven into the cities, and erase the racial difference, ie: elves are elves are elves. Then we have set up and established staff-supported elven tribes in the cities, filling that role. Now, replace PC tribal desert elves with PC gith, a natural predatory force. Gith at least do something other than think about eating, as PC mantis had to do to be RPed correctly.

A bit late to this discussion..yet here are my thoughts as a fervent player of elves and all things tribal.

Not a fan of this idea. It would radically change or possibly remove some of the funnest clans currently available for play.  If I understand things correctly (and I may not so bear with me) you would also have to change the code to make a new type of elf, or get rid of one of the two types of coded elves now in existence, having one universal elf. Unielf.

If one were to pursue this (I am not advocating for or against here, just stating an option), it would work better to change the documentation for city elves, making them extensions of existing and coded d elf tribes. In tribal society a large tribe will often be broken into many different clans. Each clan has its own leadership and particular traits, but they all share the same tribal identity. You could simply be a city based Sun Runner (a coded clan) or a Desert based one (clan). You could do the same with some of the currently closed d elf clans. The type of coded elf you get when you create your PC would be determined by your clan choice.

That would allow for the racial equilibrium and make the elves defiantly "uncivilized" even if they were in  a city based clan. It would still  allow someone to play a non-clanned c elf.  It would give d-elves a choice of more involvement in city based RP and plots, if a d elf PC wanted to do so.

I played in one of the celf clans when it was open, just prior to its closing.  And there was just no interest in the player base it seems. The few c elves that played preferred to be independent. I reckon there were many reasons for this. Playing in the clan was really an insular role, but at the same time a Mercantilist one. It was hard to be both, although it was fun. It was also hard for other non elves to know how to treat us.  True we were filthy neckers, but the mercantile aspect also made us civilized and we were often treated as such.  The clan itself was great and had a lot going for it. Yet it did seem a bit out of place.

The idea I suggested above could remedy this situation, although there would be other problems. It will be interesting to see what the staff come up with, yet IMHO getting rid of -any- of the few tribal (elf or human) options currently open would be a big mistake, unless others were opened. Dyr Nyr Plys Dyn't Tych My Trybls.