Ideas for Jails and Crimcode

[RogueGunslinger]

So Nyr recently brought up a great point, that jails currently make little IC sense in Zalanthas. Here's his post:

Kind of looks like sorcerers just took a nerf but still cost the same amount of karma regardless. Dunno how I feel about this.

One must take the good with the bad.

There are several things in the game that made more sense at the time, but currently do not.

I think jails are a good example.  Your PC breaks some sort of law locally and the PC is dragged off to jail.  After "serving time" which is really less than an IC day (even if you murdered someone), you get released.  This tends to fly in the face of the expectation that one is playing a character in a real and living world, so much so that the jail experience is often an example of cognitive dissonance: my PC is going to jail for doing a crime, but no one is actually going to punish my PC for it if staff or a PC templar or soldier doesn't notice.  Additionally, who's being punished here:  the PC, or the player?  The PC experiences nothing as a result of being in jail.  The player, on the other hand, is absent from the majority of the game during their jail sentence without PC or staff intervention.  It's almost like spanking the player for playing (we would assume) a realistic PC that is indeed breaking the law.  We allow and even expect that players will play PCs that break the laws of the given city-states within roleplay boundaries, so why the odd situation with the jails? 

The answer is that the game has grown and matured faster than the code.  Roleplay resources are enormous but coding resources are more limited.

My Idea:

What if instead of jails, they just had a bunch of NPC soldier beat you unconscious(taking your coins and weapons), and then report your crime, name and sdesc to a Templar/officer. I agree that Jails don't make any real sense in the game.

Perhaps then Jails could be retrofitted into interrogation rooms.

Perhaps severity of beatings/how much coins they took from you would be effected by severity of crime.

Anyways brainstorm your Jail/crimcode ideas here.

[nauta]

You know, this thread was a little bit of a spoiler, since I totally thought jail was wayyyy worse, even though I've been in it, lots.  In particular, and this is my suggestion, I thought:

Your name gets added to The List, available to select AoD PCs and Templar PCs, such that they would KNOW what you did, even if they didn't act on it, maybe going off the list after a bit. 

Oh, and you get the shit beat out of you and lose your stuff.  Natch.

[Desertman]

I like the idea of jail being the "go to" punishment and any creative punishments being handed down by PC Templars who are notified you have gotten thrown in the slammer. I think that is our current system?

I don't mind your punishment being a good solid beat-down by the militia, so long as the militia doing it are PC's. Also, kind of our current system.

[Gimfalisette]

NPCs really don't have a severity level of the punishment they're trying to put on you; it's either on, or off. If they're trying to kill you, they're trying to kill you. So I don't see any way for that part of the idea to work. Having played in the AoD and having seen PCs get killed by NPCs even when we were trying diligently to make sure that didn't happen...it's just too risky. (Once when a PC got unreasonably crim-flagged in the Gaj, I had to rescue and start fighting the NPC soldier myself so that the PC could flee and not die. NPCs are pretty unstoppable.)

I pretty much agree with Dman.

[Nyr]

I like the idea of jail being the "go to" punishment and any creative punishments being handed down by PC Templars who are notified you have gotten thrown in the slammer. I think that is our current system?

I don't mind your punishment being a good solid beat-down by the militia, so long as the militia doing it are PC's. Also, kind of our current system.

You're correct.  Our current system is to provide one punishment from NPCs and the virtual world, unanimated and unassisted by PCs, and another punishment from PCs and the virtual world, animated and assisted by PCs or staff.  That seems like it could be improved upon.

[Saellyn]

I dunno, jail is annoying but it's nothing to really get super angry over. I like that it gives pc templars/soldiers a chance to get their smug face on and "Oh-ho, thought you could escape our eyes, hmm?"

[Gimfalisette]

You're correct.  Our current system is to provide one punishment from NPCs and the virtual world, unanimated and unassisted by PCs, and another punishment from PCs and the virtual world, animated and assisted by PCs or staff.  That seems like it could be improved upon.

I hear what you're saying, but the current system also means that if you're playing a criminal and you get crim-flagged (leaving aside any skills or strategies that might allow you to avoid the law despite crim-flagging), your chance of getting in trouble with PCs is not 100%. Sometimes you get thrown in jail and no PC cares, sometimes you get thrown in jail and they do. I see a lot of potential issues with having a system that always goes right from crim-flag to PC alert/intervention.

I say this from having played on both sides of the law at various times.

[Nyr]

Oh, I'm talking about taking it a step farther and discussing/reviewing whether murder should be a big deal or not in general, or whether anyone should be able to buy their way out of the jails, or whether it is possible or feasible to have an IC log that templars/leader sergeants can review to see who's been making the rounds in jail and then shake them down for more cash, whether solitary confinement is really a good option for interaction, or even whether there might be alternatives beyond putting a PC in a box for an hour or so, like applying some punishment to them that they have to serve out later with PCs...

Stuff like that.

More brainstorming/ideas/what-not to try and see what we can come up with that would be possible to implement.  There may be things that would be really cool but hard to do, or really easy and not that hard to change, etc--this would be where we can discuss that.

[Marauder Moe]

I think jail is fine because at the very least, NPC law enforcement needs to stop the crime from progressing.

I like the idea of PC militia/templars being automatically informed about recent PC criminal activity, HOWEVER, PC militia (all characters, really) very often tend to be too fast and loose with sdesc usage.  Maybe the system could somehow be coded to not always give 100% of an sdesc or mdesc or something.  Maybe repeat offenders and/or more serious crimes result in more detail being given.

[Desertman]

I like the idea of jail being the "go to" punishment and any creative punishments being handed down by PC Templars who are notified you have gotten thrown in the slammer. I think that is our current system?

I don't mind your punishment being a good solid beat-down by the militia, so long as the militia doing it are PC's. Also, kind of our current system.

You're correct.  Our current system is to provide one punishment from NPCs and the virtual world, unanimated and unassisted by PCs, and another punishment from PCs and the virtual world, animated and assisted by PCs or staff.  That seems like it could be improved upon.

I like the idea of social shaming/marking as a punishment. That seems VERY Zalanthan.

What if when you get thrown into the Allanaki jails, the reason for your arrest is taken into consideration and you are marked/branded with such?

Theft? - Right Shoulder - A crudely healed broken-coin brand scar. - The flesh here has been crudely burned and allowed to heal in an uneven scar faintly resembling the shape of an obsidian coin broken in half. It is about the size of the average human thumb.

Assault? - Right Shoulder - A crudely healed closed-fist brand scar. - The flesh here has been crudely burned and allowed to heal in uneven scar faintly resembling the shape of a closed fist. It is about the size of the average human thumb.

Murder? - Right Shoulder - A crudely healed broken-dagger brand scar. - The flesh here has been crudely burned and allowed to heal in an uneven scar faintly resembling the shape of a small dagger, its blade broken in half. It is about the size of the average human thumb.

You get where I am going with this. These are just examples. Also, multiple arrests might result in multiple brands?

Right Shoulder - A pair of crudely healed broken-coin brand scars.
Right Shoulder- A few crudely healed broken-coin brand scars.
Right Shoulder - A crudely healed broken-coin brand scar and a crudely healed closed-fist brand scar.


Right Shoulder - A series of crudely healed brand scars. This one would work in a format similar to our tattoo artists in town now I would imagine and would be updated with every new arrest. Something like this:

A series of crudely healed brand scars mark the flesh of the victim here. Each consists of puffy unevenly healed flesh about the size of the average human thumb and depicts the following; Several crudely healed broken-coin brand scars. A pair of crudely healed broken-dagger brand scars. Many crudely healed closed-fist brand scars.

This would all take some coding of course. But, I think it is a neat idea. It seems very Zalanthan to me. I can even see Rinthers/criminal types considering the brands a right of passage/indicative of true "street cred" among the gangs.

Instead of there being an OOC list of criminals that the militia/templarate could check. Now there is an IC list they can check....right on the criminals.

[Gimfalisette]

Paying a bribe to a PC officer or templar to get your name put on a list where you don't get crim-flagged at all, preferably with some kind of discretion; e.g. levels of crime you can get out of based on how much you paid them. (They decide how much you pay them. That way they can charge humans less, rinthis more, elves even more, etc.) (Don't make this be for templars only, pleaaaaaaase. Officers need bribe love too.)

IC log of PCs that got crim-flagged for officers and templars to check.

You'd still need some location for interrogations and "AoD hands-on trainings" to happen.

Jail escapes?

[Desertman]

Paying a bribe to a PC officer or templar to get your name put on a list where you don't get crim-flagged at all, preferably with some kind of discretion; e.g. levels of crime you can get out of based on how much you paid them. (They decide how much you pay them. That way they can charge humans less, rinthis more, elves even more, etc.) (Don't make this be for templars only, pleaaaaaaase. Officers need bribe love too.)

IC log of PCs that got crim-flagged for officers and templars to check.

You'd still need some location for interrogations and "AoD hands-on trainings" to happen.

Jail escapes?

I think this is a little too "Tuluki Licensed Criminals" for my taste. I like for this sort of thing to be unofficial with no policy.

That is a personal preference though. I wouldn't hate it. I just wouldn't prefer it.

[Gimfalisette]

I think this is a little too "Tuluki Licensed Criminals" for my taste. I like for this sort of thing to be unofficial with no policy.

It wouldn't be a policy, it would be an option. Right now you can bribe or be bribed up the wazoo, but codedly you can't do anything about crim-flagging unless the PC templar and the PC criminal are in the same room together. All this does is open up opportunity for the type of corruption that is already supposed to exist.

I would also like to see officers of the AoD be able to clear crim-flags. Oh how many times did I run a full interrogation/torture session on someone, extort everything necessary, find out everything necessary...no templar is online..."Sorry, man, you're just gonna have to hang out in jail some more." Letting officers (that means Sergeants+) clear crim flags would allow them to be more corrupt, plus make things more flexible and playable for both sides.

[Desertman]

I think this is a little too "Tuluki Licensed Criminals" for my taste. I like for this sort of thing to be unofficial with no policy.

It wouldn't be a policy, it would be an option. Right now you can bribe or be bribed up the wazoo, but codedly you can't do anything about crim-flagging unless the PC templar and the PC criminal are in the same room together. All this does is open up opportunity for the type of corruption that is already supposed to exist.

I would also like to see officers of the AoD be able to clear crim-flags. Oh how many times did I run a full interrogation/torture session on someone, extort everything necessary, find out everything necessary...no templar is online..."Sorry, man, you're just gonna have to hang out in jail some more." Letting officers (that means Sergeants+) clear crim flags would allow them to be more corrupt, plus make things more flexible and playable for both sides.

I am ABSOLUTELY down to see officers of the AoD/Legion be able to clear crim-flags. I've always wondered why they can't. This alone would be enough to allow for more corruption.

I just don't like the idea of a system where you can basically pay ahead of time to be allowed to commit crimes with no crim-code against you. This suggests that paying one Templar or one Officer somehow magically means every soldier in the legions vast and every Templar in the legions vast is now aware and on your side. There is inner-corruption in the templarate. Maybe one Templar WANTS to kill you for being the stool pigeon of his hated enemy Templar. It would result in a meta-game of criminals just paying ahead of time to commit crimes with coded immunity. Maybe I am not understanding your idea correctly. As I am reading it, paying ahead of time would mean you wouldn't be crim-coded if you got caught as if every Templar and soldier NPC in the city knew who you were and what you were about?

[Marauder Moe]

Maybe sergeant+ could pardon only in jail cells?  But still, jail terms are lenient enough that I was generally OK with: "Thanks for cooperating.  Cool off a bit and you'll be out in no time."

Actually what I'd really like is for officers to be able to incriminate in the jails so occupants won't be dumped on the street just because the PC soldiers stepped outside the cell for a moment.


Meanwhile, I also dislike the idea of automated pre-authorized crime in Allanak.  Heck, even in Tuluk, a licensed criminal still doesn't actually receive any quarter from NPC law enforcement, AFAIK.

[Gimfalisette]

I just don't like the idea of a system where you can basically pay ahead of time to be allowed to commit crimes with no crim-code against you. It would result in a meta-game of criminals just paying ahead of time to commit crimes with coded immunity. (I am not be understanding your idea correctly. As I am reading it, paying ahead of time would mean you wouldn't be crim-coded if you got caught?).

Since the criminal's access to the list would run through PCs, and PCs would decide who gets on and who doesn't, and how much the criminal pays and what kind of crime they can avoid being crim-flagged for...it's not like immunity from the law. It's more like "I passed on word to my buddies that this is your territory for petty theft, but if you get caught doing something else, all bets are off." Right now there's no way to do that codedly, so paying bribes for soldiers to look the other way is not at all backed by the code. That means, mostly, soldiers don't get bribed. (Seriously. I always wanted to get bribed and be corrupt. Why didn't anyone ever bribe me? )

The effect that I see in game is that since soldiers aren't getting bribed, they tend to be total hardasses for making sure criminals feel the full smack of the law. PC soldiers' jobs are usually excruciatingly boring, plus they get paid terribly (since they are supposed to be making it up in bribes and/or bonuses from their superiors, which are only rarely forthcoming). Let's help soldiers lay off a bit.

[Gimfalisette]

Actually what I'd really like is for officers to be able to incriminate in the jails so occupants won't be dumped on the street just because the PC soldiers stepped outside the cell for a moment.

I'd like officers to be able to incriminate anywhere. RP-wise, an officer can arrest, but codedly there's no way to do that. E.g. your templar boss has said "arrest this dude when you see him" but your only option is subdue, codedly...and then hope that your target's got their no-saves set correctly so that they don't get ganked by any NPC soldiers that may be nearby.

[Marauder Moe]

Eh what?  Subdue IS coded arrest.  It only becomes a problem when, as I mentioned, you try to leave them in a cell.

[Gimfalisette]

Eh what?  Subdue IS coded arrest.  It only becomes a problem when, as I mentioned, you try to leave them in a cell.

It's not a coded arrest because it doesn't crim-flag them. Also, it very easily goes wrong and you end up with a dead target. The way to make sure your target doesn't end up dead is to have a lengthy OOC conversation first to make sure they've got their no-saves set correctly, which is pretty immersion-breaking, not to mention sort of gives away the game that you're about to arrest them.

[RogueGunslinger]

Eh what?  Subdue IS coded arrest.  It only becomes a problem when, as I mentioned, you try to leave them in a cell.

It's also a problem when someone is fleeing from you(not in your room), running past a whole bunch of soldiers on their way to the 'rinth who don't know any better.

Eh what?  Subdue IS coded arrest.  It only becomes a problem when, as I mentioned, you try to leave them in a cell.

It's not a coded arrest because it doesn't crim-flag them. Also, it very easily goes wrong and you end up with a dead target. The way to make sure your target doesn't end up dead is to have a lengthy OOC conversation first to make sure they've got their no-saves set correctly, which is pretty immersion-breaking, not to mention sort of gives away the game that you're about to arrest them.

Yeah. You can have a soldier fail 10 subdues in a row on you, then simply swagger past the next 10 guards you see.

[Marauder Moe]

I rarely, if ever, went OOC about nosaves before nabbing someone, especially not if they don't have a newbie air about them.  Nothing in the soldier docs requires you to do so.


Maybe you problem, Gimf, is that your soldier was too nice.  For Tek's sake, my character got tossed in a cell with her once and they ended up playing cards!    

[Gimfalisette]

Maybe you problem, Gimf, is that your soldier was too nice.  For Tek's sake, my character got tossed in a cell with her once and they ended up playing cards!    

Uh...you were playing a high-level aide to a noble house. And my soldier was ordered to be nice to your character by her commanding templar, so    Not exactly a typical situation there, Moe.

No one ever said Laila was too nice. She was as murder-y and corrupt as anyone else, but I actually pride myself on the great care I took to make sure that opposing players' experiences were not hampered by ancient code that has little nuance. OOCly, I'd rather see criminals live to get away and do crime another day than be ganked by NPCs.

[Marauder Moe]

Bah, I was just making a little fun.

Anyway, I too did try to balance things for the criminals.  However, people know about nosave arrest, and thus I didn't feel the need to explain it.  I never got anyone killed that way.

You also said you had trouble collecting bribes.  The way I figured it, coded crimes are hard crimes that you can't really expect a soldier to publicly ignore.  Bribes are for softer crimes, like possessing contraband, scams, pissing off important people, or just generally getting on a soldier's nerves.  For those you usually had to give some form of solicitation/threat.

[Desertman]

Eh, I don't see why fifty other soldiers would ignore you just because you paid one PC soldier off. Why do they care you paid off some other guy in the Arm? They might not even like that guy. They might HATE that guy and want to kill them themselves.

They are a corrupt from the ground-up law enforcement agency in essence. It isn't, "What have you done for the agency lately.", it's "What have you done for me lately?".

My AOD soldiers wouldn't give two fucks that you paid off Officer A, I'm not Officer A, I'm me....and you owe me fucker if you want me to look the other way. We aren't a happy family and their pockets aren't my pockets.

I have personally shelled out thousands upon thousands in bribes to the AOD with characters.

It happens very often and in big numbers in my experience if the soldiers in question I playing their cards right.

[Gimfalisette]

Ehh. I had a response for you guys, but forget it.