Change implemented for sorcerers

[BadSkeelz]

The inverse to "sorcerer ganks every PC" is "every PC in power wants to gank the sorcerer." That seemed to happen more than the latter, and when the sorcerer in question is nigh invulnerable... it doesn't make for a very intriguing plot. Unless you're working for Sath "Every mission is a suicide mission" Brannigan.


Admittedly, I'll miss not having the chance to rub sorcerers' death in their face.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I really wish sorcery was like a puzzle book. Something that could very slowly, through reasoning and experimentation once you know a few basic principles and discovery of clues, be worked out.

I would have loved that, no doubt. No argument from me.

You know, really, the model for retaining the true, terrifying sorcerer classes would have been player run cities. Player-run cities would have allowed Sorcerers to do what they are meant to do - dominate and rule. Sorcerers would have had to fight one another, and because only a sorcerer could match another sorcerer in sheer power, they would have become natural competition, along with the occasional lesser magick user or the lucky [insert_mundane_class_here]. But with every city dominated by a NPC/VNPC ruler, there was no opportunity for the class to truly find it's footing.

Even a lone village of Storm's size which functioned solely under player government would have worked, as they fought one another for the power divested on the ruling body therein.

[James de Monet]

Harmless, why would you dock sorc PC's for killing people? You might as well suggest docking Templar PC's for killing people. The powerful lead through violence. Welcome to Zalanthas. In most cases, not killing PC's would be less realistic for those with crazy power than killing them.

Life is cheap and those who lead by fear must instill it if they mean for it to enable them.

The problem with sorc PCs is that they ended up having to gank too many people to realistically portray their power, and they unbalanced the world by it (or would have, if they decided to err on the side of realism instead of the side of playability). Staff are tipping the scales in favor of playability by this change.  Punishing sorc PC's for playing realistically would solve nothing.

[Lizzie]

I think the real problem is that there was nothing for them to do once they reached the pinnacle of their power except to make trouble. No role except to swoop down on the lowly. We need some more constructive options.

This is what I mean. Is this true? No it isn't; sorcerors could do a lot more with their power besides kill npcs and gank people in the desert. They can coerce people into becoming their shadow agents. Who would tell a sorceror "no" when certain death is the outcome of betrayal?

I remember very distinctly how awesome it was when my old PC's closest contact told me for the first time that she was likely being watched by a sorceror. The things that happened to us not long after that were predictable. (hint. it was bad.)

I'm with Valeria, and again, I say this: if the only plot a sorceror thinks of is to gank PCs and such, dock their karma. There are way more interesting plots that old sorcerors could start. The move to just dump them DOES solve the issue but helping players fill the role in a more interesting way would also have worked. Or just karma docking until they're ready for it again.

Okay so they coerce people to be their shadow agents. Then what? What are those agents being tasked to do, and why? They're probably just being tasked to spy on the cities to make sure no one is gunning for the sorcerer. And if it turns out they ARE gunning for the sorcerer, what do you expect the sorcerer to do? Say "Oh - well damn, that was a fine run wasn't it boys? Time to close shop, I, with all my glorious power that could theoretically destroy the entire Legion and Militia in two casts, will run away and make a new camp."

Or...

The sorcerer will kill the templar who is ordering the Legion to look for him.

Ultimately, every sorcerer plot will end up being a "them or me" scene. There's no getting around it, and the sorcerer has the power to make sure it's them, not him, every time. The player of the sorcerer has to work his ass off to ensure that people do _not_ die, even when those people are trying to PK HIM. In the end, the player of the sorc loses his character because he made sure to -not- do something that a sorcerer -would- do, when faced with death. That's not fair OOCly, and it's not all that much fun OOCly. It makes for jaded players who have earned the right to play those sorcerers in the first place.

For those who claim there's not much intervention needed by staff to "help" a sorcerer's plotlines, I say you haven't spent that much time RPing a sorc or RPing with a sorc. This is a high-maintenance role. A lot of that high maintenance is because the sorc's player IS trying to not kill all his enemies but instead, giving himself and/or his lackeys interesting options that require staff intervention.

The extended subguilds are not sorcerers, because a sorcerer would have the ability to learn more than one path. The subguilds cannot. People need to stop thinking of them as quarter-sorcs, or nerfed sorcs, or whatever. Rather, they're rangers-plus. Or warriors-bonus-value. Or merchants-with-a-twist.

I still don't like that sorcerers are no longer playable, and hope the staff will include them at some point in the near future, whether by special app or sponsored role or even recruited via e-mail. I'm not worried about favoritism, I expect it and even encourage it. The staff should know who is best suited to play this or that role, and should absolutely be allowing players who are best suited, to play certain roles  on occasion.

I'm definitely looking forward to trying one of those subguilds, if and when I ever get enough karma to special app for one.

[Eyeball]

This is what I mean. Is this true? No it isn't; sorcerors could do a lot more with their power besides kill npcs and gank people in the desert. They can coerce people into becoming their shadow agents. Who would tell a sorceror "no" when certain death is the outcome of betrayal?

So what is this, except making trouble (indirectly instead of directly), like I said?

Must everything revolve around PCs screwing with each other?

[RogueGunslinger]

This is what I mean. Is this true? No it isn't; sorcerors could do a lot more with their power besides kill npcs and gank people in the desert. They can coerce people into becoming their shadow agents. Who would tell a sorceror "no" when certain death is the outcome of betrayal?

So what is this, except making trouble (indirectly instead of directly), like I said?

Must everything revolve around PCs screwing with each other?

First of all there's nothing wrong with conflict. Conflict is good. Roleplay thrives on conflict.

Secondly, what exactly makes you think sorcerers can't help people, or remain neutral, or strike out into the farthest reaches of the known and try to start a village... Or do ANYTHING at all that any other character can do that isn't "Making trouble."

[Reiloth]

I agree with RGS.

I have a problem when I play Magickers, where I get obsessed with the spells and the code and what not, while I don't have that curse on mundanes -- I just let if flow naturally.

I think more people than myself have that problem with magickers, though i've seen some very well played elementalists, sorcerers, and psions that play the character before the skill tree -- And inevitably are way more interesting.

I envy and respect people who can play magickers well -- I have an awful time at it.

[Armaddict]

For those who claim there's not much intervention needed by staff to "help" a sorcerer's plotlines, I say you haven't spent that much time RPing a sorc or RPing with a sorc. This is a high-maintenance role. A lot of that high maintenance is because the sorc's player IS trying to not kill all his enemies but instead, giving himself and/or his lackeys interesting options that require staff intervention.

First off...this is not much different than a noble role in that respect.  There is plenty that does -not- require staff interaction, as well.

Secondly.  As is reiterated ALL THE TIME, our staff are volunteers.  If time constraints were turning into an issue in the past, that staff member would be moved to something less time consuming or asked to step down.  Getting this work done with PC's is part of the volunteer work, not something that should just be cut out altogether for the sake of maintaining a staff quo.  Recycle to fit time constraints, don't make the game smaller.  If a volunteer in any other organization says they don't have time to do their volunteer work, another volunteer is found, the entire facet that the guy has been doing isn't shut down to make sure the same guy can still do it, albeit less.

Edited to add:  Er, I wanted to make this clear that this is not an 'F U STAFF' post or anything like that.  I am just of the opinion that these things that are being cut out should be of higher priority than this in the 'staff time hierarchy' or whatever.  It's not meant as a 'you guys need to step down', only that this was maintained before.  If time is getting shorter, removal of pieces and player opportunity from the gameworld is counter-objective to the point of the mud's existence, really.  In my opinion.

[Eyeball]

First of all there's nothing wrong with conflict. Conflict is good. Roleplay thrives on conflict.

Did I say anything is wrong with conflict? No, I said I wish there could be more than just conflict (i.e. that it would be supported).

or strike out into the farthest reaches of the known and try to start a village...

Oh I don't know, maybe because it's never been done in the entire history of the game? Point to me a village established by a sorcerer? Something more than a camp that vanished utterly the moment PCs stopped going there?

Because the sneering half-giant's tower is the closest thing I can think of, and that happened in the mid 90's.

[Armaddict]

or strike out into the farthest reaches of the known and try to start a village...

Oh I don't know, maybe because it's never been done in the entire history of the game? Point to me a village established by a sorcerer? Something more than a camp that vanished utterly the moment PCs stopped going there?

Because the sneering half-giant's tower is the closest thing I can think of, and that happened in the mid 90's.

That's only an example of how natural it is.  The thing exists as long as the sorcerer is there.  'Permanent' encampments have always been rare, with most of the requirement being 'Can we have a save/quit room'?  Everything else is handled through PC action.

[RogueGunslinger]

or strike out into the farthest reaches of the known and try to start a village...

Oh I don't know, maybe because it's never been done in the entire history of the game? Point to me a village established by a sorcerer? Something more than a camp that vanished utterly the moment PCs stopped going there?

Because the sneering half-giant's tower is the closest thing I can think of, and that happened in the mid 90's.

I love how you picked out the most tangential piece of my entire post and focused on that, completely sidestepping the point.

[Armaddict]

or strike out into the farthest reaches of the known and try to start a village...

Oh I don't know, maybe because it's never been done in the entire history of the game? Point to me a village established by a sorcerer? Something more than a camp that vanished utterly the moment PCs stopped going there?

Because the sneering half-giant's tower is the closest thing I can think of, and that happened in the mid 90's.

I love how you picked out the most tangential piece of my entire post and focused on that, completely sidestepping the point.

It also in no way supports the change.

[Eyeball]

I love how you picked out the most tangential piece of my entire post and focused on that, completely sidestepping the point.

It was the only part of your post that actually involved potentially leaving a mark on the world. The rest is just the same thing. Interaction and struggle without any consequence except on transient PC lives.

[Eyeball]

or strike out into the farthest reaches of the known and try to start a village...

Oh I don't know, maybe because it's never been done in the entire history of the game? Point to me a village established by a sorcerer? Something more than a camp that vanished utterly the moment PCs stopped going there?

Because the sneering half-giant's tower is the closest thing I can think of, and that happened in the mid 90's.

That's only an example of how natural it is.  The thing exists as long as the sorcerer is there.  'Permanent' encampments have always been rare, with most of the requirement being 'Can we have a save/quit room'?  Everything else is handled through PC action.

Actually, the sneering half-giant's tower seems more natural to me. People build things. They actually stack one rock on top of another. Those things persist for a while, even if they degenerate into ruins over time (the sneering half-giant's tower being a prime example). This is not reflected in the options available to PCs anymore, even the most powerful ones. The staff doesn't want to do this. I wish this would change.

[RogueGunslinger]

I love how you picked out the most tangential piece of my entire post and focused on that, completely sidestepping the point.

It was the only part of your post that actually involved potentially leaving a mark on the world. The rest is just the same thing. Interaction and struggle without any consequence except on transient PC lives.

You've lost me. What does leaving a mark on the world have to do with your assertion that sorcerers can only breed conflict?  Even if it were true that sorcs can only cause trouble(it's not), it would be because the documentation literally says they're the devil, and should be killed on sight. How would you even change that?

[Is Friday]

lol, point to a village that a sorc has started. lollll.

[Eyeball]

Secondly.  As is reiterated ALL THE TIME, our staff are volunteers.

I really do not mean to be insulting here. Also, I realize that people develop lives as they get older but want to continue on with a game they love, just without as much time. But is it not possible to find some more ambitious volunteers? That's what built the game, students not yet caught up in the daily grind. There must be some of them here, easily detectable through high play times, that could be appointed to staff.

Anyhow, I've said what I've wanted to say now. I still play on here, despite not having it exactly as I like, which probably is the indication things are still pretty good.

[Eyeball]

lol, point to a village that a sorc has started. lollll.

Prime GDB comment, just prime. Useless and annoying at the same time.

[Is Friday]

lol, point to a village that a sorc has started. lollll.

Prime GDB comment, just prime. Useless and annoying at the same time.

Read the history page.

[Reiloth]

Secondly.  As is reiterated ALL THE TIME, our staff are volunteers.

I really do not mean to be insulting here. Also, I realize that people develop lives as they get older but want to continue on with a game they love, just without as much time. But is it not possible to find some more ambitious volunteers? That's what built the game, students not yet caught up in the daily grind. There must be some of them here, easily detectable through high play times, that could be appointed to staff.

Anyhow, I've said what I've wanted to say now. I still play on here, despite not having it exactly as I like, which probably is the indication things are still pretty good.

That's really presumptuous and rude. Staff dedicate their volunteer time however they please, to this GAME, guy. I don't want some teenager who has a bunch of time on their hands to be that 'awesome volunteer' just because they have a bunch of time on their hands. Everyone is growing up. I got married this year, and i'm fairly different then when I started playing this game when I was 15 years old.

They offer their free time to help run this shared hobby/game we all play. It is insulting to say 'hey I know you're doing a lot but can you do more, for free, because I want it?' The game is changing constantly for the better (insert Malken joke about me being on all fours for Staff), and maybe the game ArmageddonMUD is becoming isn't the game you grew up playing. Who would have figured? This is what progress looks like. Staff actually respond to my requests within 5 days, instead of never/maybe in a month. Staff are accountable to each other -- They don't just make shit up out of thin air and roll with it, as many plots/devices were in the past. There's probably some happy medium between liberal and conservative -- It seems like we're on a conservative swing on the pendulum. But shit changes. What game have you played that is on the internet that remains static for 10+ years?

[Malken]

lol, point to a village that a sorc has started. lollll.

I think the Cuddle Puddle could /almost/ be considered a tiny village all in itself.

[BleakOne]

I can't say one way or the other if I approve or not of the change to sorcerers. Never played as one, and only had three encounters with sorcs in my entire time in Armageddon.

Two of those encounters wouldn't have change at all if they were subguild sorcerer or guild sorcerer, since they involved little to no magick.

On the topic of the staff, I like to err on the side of positivity. I've had very little stress from interactions with staff, and more than once they've really come through for me. They do quite well, in my opinion.

[Jingo]

Secondly.  As is reiterated ALL THE TIME, our staff are volunteers.

I really do not mean to be insulting here. Also, I realize that people develop lives as they get older but want to continue on with a game they love, just without as much time. But is it not possible to find some more ambitious volunteers? That's what built the game, students not yet caught up in the daily grind. There must be some of them here, easily detectable through high play times, that could be appointed to staff.

Anyhow, I've said what I've wanted to say now. I still play on here, despite not having it exactly as I like, which probably is the indication things are still pretty good.

That's really presumptuous and rude. Staff dedicate their volunteer time however they please, to this GAME, guy. I don't want some teenager who has a bunch of time on their hands to be that 'awesome volunteer' just because they have a bunch of time on their hands. Everyone is growing up. I got married this year, and i'm fairly different then when I started playing this game when I was 15 years old.

They offer their free time to help run this shared hobby/game we all play. It is insulting to say 'hey I know you're doing a lot but can you do more, for free, because I want it?' The game is changing constantly for the better (insert Malken joke about me being on all fours for Staff), and maybe the game ArmageddonMUD is becoming isn't the game you grew up playing. Who would have figured? This is what progress looks like. Staff actually respond to my requests within 5 days, instead of never/maybe in a month. Staff are accountable to each other -- They don't just make shit up out of thin air and roll with it, as many plots/devices were in the past. There's probably some happy medium between liberal and conservative -- It seems like we're on a conservative swing on the pendulum. But shit changes. What game have you played that is on the internet that remains static for 10+ years?

Heh. The people that don't value the time a volunteer puts into a project are the always the ones with too much free time.

Just to add my two cents and stay on topic.

Yeah, totally understand why this change is necessary. Much like Redrobes+ it took a staff avatar to play these characters appropriately.

That said, I'm gonna miss god-tier magickers. Hopefully staff will be able to add them back into the future as sponsored roles and part of ongoing plots etc.

[Armaddict]

...no one said they didn't appreciate the time of the volunteers.  Wtf, guys.  Read.

[Jingo]

Never said we said you said that. :<