Change implemented for sorcerers

[Desertman]

Fight....

Flee....

Sheathe sword....

Cast mon un fireball...

Draw Sword...

Fight....

Flee...

Sheathe Sword...

Cast mon un fireball...

Rinse and repeat with as many spells and engages as needed/desired.

I guess if they are stupid enough to stand in one spot without using any actual tactics to capitalize on their abilities they might have issues. I was working under the assumption the sorcerer in question would be dangerous because of their skills, and their ability as a player to actually play the game.

[Reiloth]

That's a very calm and collected way of looking at it.

I imagine 50 day warrior will just be like 'fuck it, going melee'. Maybe flee and get out of there via magick, but choosing between parry/defense/shield/weapons and a couple spells...They'll have to be very talented people behind the keyboard, with nerves of steel.

I mean, it's possible, sure.

[Desertman]

I would bet money the 8 karma players who probably have over a decade of experience keeping their cool in battles etc probably have a better than average-player chance of not making newb mistakes due to panic.

But the overall point is, the staff probably made this change based on, "best case scenario/maximum potential scenario" and not, "their minimal worst performance imaginable".

[Reiloth]

Hah...I don't think even seasoned vets are 'masters of the keyboard' when shit hits the fan, all of the time.

I applaud your excellent 'best case 20/20 vision scenario', but imagine that's not how it's going to play out most of the time. When you're jumped by a few people out of nowhere, anyone's brain is going to slow down to a snail's pace, allowing a few actions at best (in hopes to gain the advantage) before they are taken out (the keyword 'flee' comes to mind). A 50 day warrior jumped by a few guys, regardless of his magical ability, is going to be hard pressed to figure out which route to take, no matter the macros or the typing speed.

[Desertman]

Hah...I don't think even seasoned vets are 'masters of the keyboard' when shit hits the fan, all of the time.

I applaud your excellent 'best case 20/20 vision scenario', but imagine that's not how it's going to play out most of the time. When you're jumped by a few people out of nowhere, anyone's brain is going to slow down to a snail's pace, allowing a few actions at best (in hopes to gain the advantage) before they are taken out. A 50 day warrior jumped by a few guys, regardless of his magical ability, is going to be hard pressed to figure out which route to take, no matter the macros or the typing speed.

Five normal people jumped by a fifty day warrior/sorcerer are probably all going to be doomed to loss/death no matter the macros or the typing speed.

Creating worst case scenarios isn't really a good argument platform.

I've wasted three people at once I got the jump on with a standard warrior. By wasted I mean killed two and sent the other running. I don't think I lost a single HP.

Now imagine if I was jacked to the gills with magick buffs. Could I wipe out six, seven, eight PC's if I caught them all with their pants down?

Maybe.

That argument works both ways.

[Reiloth]

You're missing the point. But we're arguing semantics on a thread that isn't about that.

I'll gladly school your ass via PMs. Pew pew pew.

[Desertman]

You're missing the point. But we're arguing semantics on a thread that isn't about that.

I'll gladly school your ass via PMs. Pew pew pew.

Too late, I already typed flee when I realize you had no point.

elite-flee-macro-pwned

[Reiloth]

 

[Desertman]

[Reiloth]

The scenario I was positing (since your reading comprehension isn't up to par) is a 50 Day Magicker Warrior being jumped by a few similarly powered Warriors/Rangers/What Have you.

I doubt the sorcerer is going to flee, sheathe their sword, cast a fireball (at people who probably just think they're a warrior, not a sorcerer), buff up, etc.

Probably just gonna run forest run.

[Desertman]

The scenario I was positing (since your reading comprehension isn't up to par) is a 50 Day Magicker Warrior being jumped by a few similarly powered Warriors/Rangers/What Have you.

I doubt the sorcerer is going to flee, sheathe their sword, cast a fireball (at people who probably just think they're a warrior, not a sorcerer), buff up, etc.

Probably just gonna run forest run.

Your amount of mad makes me unable to continue to have this conversation with you unfortunately.

I simply don't have the desire.

[Reiloth]

Haha...Not mad at all, actually. Just poking the bear.

[Desertman]

Haha...Not mad at all, actually. Just poking the bear.

I've been banned too many times to get any sort of leniency from staff to reply to "poke the bear", or what is commonly known as "troll" posts.

I don't have that luxury.

[BadSkeelz]

Yes, badskeelz, we are aware of your irrational hate of sorcerers.

Someone has to balance out the irrational love of magickers. Otherwise we'd be up to our balls in X-men.

I think these subguilds are going to be plenty dangerous. I also think they'll be dangerous in more interesting ways than someone cosplaying as Lord Voldemort out there. So that'll be good.

[Molten Heart]

Yes, badskeelz, we are aware of your irrational hate of sorcerers.

Someone has to balance out the irrational love of magickers. Otherwise we'd be up to our balls in X-men.

Thank you for protecting us.

[Italis]

I would say that anyone who believes there will no longer be worthwhile "big bads" without a full sorcerer spell tree is selling our PC villains short.

[The Lonely Hunter]

Hey, I think I play a pretty good bad guy. =)

[Dresan]

I see this being a good change so long the new rule about sorcerer creation applies to everyone including staff. The exception being if they are playing a npc/pc for very specific purpose or plot driven purpose.


Otherwise its a good change, and one that will make sorcerers more relevant to the mundane experience, as opposed to being all powerful deities that mundanes need a really really good reason to even interact with .

[Rahnevyn]

I see this being a good change so long the new rule about sorcerer creation applies to everyone including staff. The exception being if they are playing a npc/pc for very specific purpose or plot driven purpose.

I believe it's been stated before in this thread, but yes, this is the case. Staff do not have any options to play PCs that aren't available to players - in fact we have less as we cannot play sponsored roles.

[valeria]

I would say that anyone who believes there will no longer be worthwhile "big bads" without a full sorcerer spell tree is selling our PC villains short.

If this is what you're getting out of my post, I don't think I'm being clear enough about the basis of my opinion.  I'm sad about the change.  My opinion on this change removing the big bads doesn't have anything to do with the capabilities of other players.  I am perfectly capable of feeling this way without selling other types of PC villains short.

When I think of the big bad, it is not Raider X who lasts for a little while and then captured or killed or disappears.  That's a villain, but it isn't the kind of villain that I'd call a big bad.  When I say big bad, I'm specifically thinking of the super powerful wasteland sorcerers that people try to pin down and kill for years.

As I understand it from this post, this post, and especially this post the demise of the powerful wasteland sorcerer type of villain is not some incidental side effect that might maybe possibly happen from this change; it is the point of the change.  So my statement that this change will remove the big bads from the waste really has nothing to do with my estimations of other players, or predictions of whether the sorcerer/whatever combos will be sufficiently powerful that players could make a villain out of them, or anything like that.  Removing the super powerful wasteland sorcerer PC villain, the "big bad," from the game is the purpose of the change as I understand it.  Maybe you have a different opinion about what a "big bad" means, but that is where I am approaching it from.

I'm not saying that we will never see any kind of wasteland villain again.  What I am saying that we won't have the big bad wasteland villain because the purpose of this change is to remove that kind of wasteland villain.  The combination sorcerers that may or may not eventually exist and move into the wastes won't, and codedly can't, be the same.  You won't convince me that combo-quarter-sorcerers will be every bit as big and bad as full sorcerers because the point of the change was to remove the coded ability to attain the kind of power that full sorcerers could attain.  It has nothing to do the quality of the players or other types of PC villains we might have.

I don't have an opinion on whether it's a good change or a bad change.  The goodness or badness of the change has nothing to do with how I feel.  And the goodness or badness of the change certainly doesn't change the point of the change, which was to remove from the game the kind of coded power that PC sorcerers could attain.

I feel sad about it.  I have as much a right to feel sad--because I enjoyed that kind of villain and the plots produced--as other players do to feel happy or excited--because they didn't enjoy that kind of villain or the plots produced.  I'm not shitting on anyone's right to feel happy or excited by not feeling as happy and excited as some people do.  I'm just approaching the change from a different place.  In my place, I had good experiences with the type of super powerful sorcerer big bads.  The reaction provoked when that kind of wasteland villain was supposedly approaching a city-state created awe in me on my first military character, and struggling against a different waste villain of the same kind created the best character story arc that I've ever experienced.  That they could be hunted by the powers that be for extended periods of time and still survive, that they were the dark lords/ladies of the desert, is exactly what I as a player found terrifying and scary about them.  I really enjoyed playing opposite that type of PC villain.  And I am sad that I will never experience that again.

I hope that explains it better!

[MeTekillot]

Valeria, they didn't remove them from the game. They just removed players playing them from the game.

The sorcerers we see now won't be player-type sorcerers, controlled by someone who is slave to the whims and creativity of one person. Every full-sorcerer encountered from now on will, after serving their staff-discussed plot purpose, will be drawn and quartered. Weighed and measured and specifically tailored to exactly one purpose or plot in the game, without all the hassle of having a player and their whims to manage in the meantime.

[Malken]

<insert inscrutable Tuluki spy sorcerer joke>

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I feel you, Val. I can understand the issues staff were seeing with sorcerers, because you basically had the Black Robes of the desert, with no PC competition of any sort. But that doesn't matter to you - it's the fact that there were fully invested PCs working those scary bad guys, and they were terrifying to run into because you were at their mercy in ways that no other class could have had you. They were scary.

I do wish there had been a different solution to it. But it is what it is. I'm hoping that the new path-sorcerers will be given enough to make them equally terrifying, yet more able to be competition for the Templars of the cities, rather than unstoppable machines requiring staff interaction to compete with.

[Eyeball]

I feel you, Val. I can understand the issues staff were seeing with sorcerers, because you basically had the Black Robes of the desert, with no PC competition of any sort. But that doesn't matter to you - it's the fact that there were fully invested PCs working those scary bad guys, and they were terrifying to run into because you were at their mercy in ways that no other class could have had you. They were scary.

Look, I have to say it. So what? These were eight karma characters. They were very rare and it took a lot of playing for them to get really dangerous. So they were terrifying to run into? I hope so!

I think the real problem is that there was nothing for them to do once they reached the pinnacle of their power except to make trouble. No role except to swoop down on the lowly. We need some more constructive options.

I really wish sorcery was like a puzzle book. Something that could very slowly, through discovery of clues, reasoning, and experimentation once you know a few basic principles, be worked out.

[Harmless]

I think the real problem is that there was nothing for them to do once they reached the pinnacle of their power except to make trouble. No role except to swoop down on the lowly. We need some more constructive options.

This is what I mean. Is this true? No it isn't; sorcerors could do a lot more with their power besides kill npcs and gank people in the desert. They can coerce people into becoming their shadow agents. Who would tell a sorceror "no" when certain death is the outcome of betrayal?

I remember very distinctly how awesome it was when my old PC's closest contact told me for the first time that she was likely being watched by a sorceror. The things that happened to us not long after that were predictable. (hint. it was bad.)

I'm with Valeria, and again, I say this: if the only plot a sorceror thinks of is to gank PCs and such, dock their karma. There are way more interesting plots that old sorcerors could start. The move to just dump them DOES solve the issue but helping players fill the role in a more interesting way would also have worked. Or just karma docking until they're ready for it again.