Change implemented for sorcerers

[Ktavialt]

I think these guilded quarter-sorcs are going to have a hard time.

The staff may know best because I'm sure they've given some people these extended subguild powers already and they saw how it plays out, but knowing what I know there just comes a point where, as a sorcerer/rogue magicker you realize there is too high a likelihood that the gig is up, there comes a point that you ditch going to Allanak/Tuluk anymore in any appreciable way and you are restricted to Luir's/Red Storm.  With sorcs (as opposed to ungemmed elementalists), you don't even have that. 

My prediction is that the guilded quarter-sorcs end up either:

(a) sticking in civilized areas but hardly using their magick - those that have any lingering effect would be utterly idiotic to use in most circumstances - very restricted what may work; or

(b) wandering the wastes 24-7, which will get boring over time because heck you can't even go into Luir's if you are discovered; or

(c) being part of rogue magicker group #1231414 living out in the wastes, except with less ability to defend from gemmed magicker attackers than full sorcs have.  This said, will add a new dynamic with the rogue magicker groups since they will actually have full blown Warriors/Rangers in their midsts, and maybe other mundane guilds as well.  I do see some interesting potentials.

I just think sorcery magick itself will have to be tweaked to be less noticeable to make (a) above a better possibility (i.e. the hidden sorcerer amid civilization), which is supposedly the whole point of this change by the staff.  The staff recently included more visible spell effects which is exactly the opposite direction - maybe ways to suppress it?

[Harmless]

I do not lament the loss of full sorcerors as they were. Not at all. Nyr explained that all they had to do to gain power was skill grind. That had to go.

but I do want more than what is being described as the new "system." It feels unfinished. There needs to be further additions to make something close to what old sorcs used to be but not quite. The issue was not only how much power they had but also how little interaction they needed to do to get that power. Removing something satisfies both problems but by brute force, when due to the dual nature of the problem, many other elegant solutions are possible without removing full sorcs completely.

[Ouroboros]

This is where we disagree.

We aren't really in disagreement. I fully understand what you're proposing and the fact you view it as a valid plot worth perusing. I might or might not view it as valid as well. All I was trying to explain is that staff might not view it the same way, based on the feedback we've seen in this thread and past ones. Historically, mini-plots of this sort are more likely to be accommodated when a character is on their way out, headed towards the bright light of the storage tunnel. It's often a send-off to a long-lived and influential character. It's unlikely such an investment would be made for a character rising to power, much less multiple times in one's career if all paths of magick are pursued.

But that's just my opinion. I'm sure if a staff member feels otherwise they'll chime in. Either way it's a suggestion that can only really be answered by staff, since it's their time and energy at stake.

[Barzalene]

After mulling over the discussion on this thread, I had an idea that I felt was worth sharing that may please all parties involved.

What if Sorcerer's PCs must all start down one path, and after mastering it, they need to perform some kind of quest of ascension to begin down another path?  That quest may vary depending on the sorcerer, and would not be a hard coded thing you do without direct staff involvement.  The quests would almost certainly involve doing things that will cause the aspiring sorcerer to have to work with or against other PCs in order to complete them.  Each consecutive quest after the first would be much more difficult to achieve.  This could even directly tie in with the history of Zalanthas, with the murder of Quintus Tektolnes being a part of the Highlord's own rite of ascension.

In short, these quests could be designed to be powerful plot devices.  There will be no Sorcerers who live in caves their entire lives before emerging as super powers, they will have to grow organically, and they'll almost certainly make enemies & allies in the process.  Of course, some Sorcerers aren't as ambitious (or suicidal) and will never pursue ascension, fearing drawing the attention of the world's super powers upon them.

Mechanically speaking, once a Sorcerer fully masters a path, they can choose to pursue an ascension quest via the request tool to take on another.  The staff can choose to introduce that quest solely on their own discretion, taking whatever they want into account.  The road to power isn't guaranteed.  Some Sorcerer's may never have, or fail to recognize, the opportunity to pursue ascension.  This can be for in-game reasons or purely because the staff don't have the resources to support an ascension quest at that time.  Hell, even if the staff refuse 9 out of 10 requests, that 10th they accept will add some amazingly cool stories and interactions in the game.

Anyhow, idea conveyed, curious to see if anyone thinks this is cool or stupid...I'm sure you all won't be shy about sharing your feelings

Maybe not popular to say so, but I like this. I think it looks cool. If there was no promise this would happen, but the possibility that would be cool. It's good to have things to strive for. Tangible things. It's also cool to strive for things and know you might not get them.

[CodeMaster]

I like the ascension-quest idea, for sure, while also recognizing that this is a new change and staff are probably wanting to see how things work first before layering on top of it.

That being said, I would hypothesize that there already are items in game (Diku staples like wands, magick staves, potions, and scrolls) that could be "quested" for to lend these new "demi"sorcerers a little boost that would nudge them into unstoppable territory.

Spitballing, there's this game "Nethack" that some of you may have heard of, and each character has a unique quest that s/he has to complete to continue the game.  It might be cool if each sorcerer subguild, once they've mastered all their skills, could stumble upon a portal somewhere in the world that would lead them into their quest zone.  The quest zone might have a 999/1000 chance of killing them (or even 1000/1000 ) or unlocking another path, but just trying for it and recruiting other players would be fun.  That's starting to get very hack/slash, but it's a fun thought.

[Reiloth]

Yeah, that begins to sound like a WoW dungeon or something.

[valeria]

That big bad is now the other city state.

It isn't at all the same.  Why?  Because it's a fight you can't win.  As a PC you are simply not capable of taking out the other city state.

I kind of wonder what pc templars are going to devote their attention to now.

Probably some pickpocket who DARED steal some coins the other day. Meh.

I tend to agree with this sentiment.  There is something to be said for having a big bad to fight against.

They'll have sorcerers to fight... ones that they can fight without staff assistance.  These characters won't be push-overs.

I refer you back to my fist post.  This is not a solution to the problem that I have.  The problem that I have is that I liked the old sorcerers being nearly unbeatable.  I found the plots that were generated to be very fun.  You could have year+ plots, PC on PC, devoting all of your time and attention to trying to finally get that super powerful sorcerer.  The whole point of the change is to get rid of the super powerful sorcerers.  Therefore, I just don't see it being the same.

You will have a bunch of little bads running around.  It isn't the same as having a PC big bad.  Which also isn't the same as having an NPC big bad city state.  It just isn't, and the whole point of the change is that it isn't.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm unhappy that sorcerers are no longer playable by PCs. I do, however, think that the new path-sorcerers will be formidable. Therefore, I'm not willing to give up on the idea that there will still be big bad villains to face. There are already PCs that are mundane and almost unstoppable. Add a path-sorcerer aspect to that and I think we'll be alright.

[Harmless]

The thing that surprises me most is how staff were describing the RP of sorcerors. How did they get 8 karma in the first place if they were so terrible? Doesn't this call the karma system into question more than how powerful sorcerors were? I said it was bad sorcs only skill grinded to gain power, but really this is just the 8 karma version of what all guilds do. .. Wouldn't some karma docking have solved the problem here? The game has been fine for more than a decade, afaik. I get sad when player actions lead to a slash and burn attack on the mud's content, when if these troublemaking players simply didn't have karma they arguably nevr deserved anyway then this wouldn't have happened.

No offense to you 8 karma peeps but if you dislike what I am saying, just remember I am paraphrasing Nyr's comments.

[Barzalene]

I don't think they said that at all. I think they said, very clearly, that the problem was the capabilities of the class, not the RP of the people playing them. Why give people tools they're not allowed to use?

[Desertman]

The thing that surprises me most is how staff were describing the RP of sorcerors. How did they get 8 karma in the first place if they were so terrible? Doesn't this call the karma system into question more than how powerful sorcerors were? I said it was bad sorcs only skill grinded to gain power, but really this is just the 8 karma version of what all guilds do.

No offense to you 8 karma peeps but if you dislike what I am saying, just remember I am paraphrasing Nyr's comments.

That was never said. I'm not sure paraphrasing means what you think it means.

[Desertman]

The new sorcerer guilds still seem like a huge issue to deal with.

I've fought against some maxed out warriors with four people on my team and lost to them. Five against one.

I've had 60+ day characters absolutely destroyed by a single spell, from a non-sorcerer magicker. I'm talking instant immediate death with zero chance of survival.

I'm pretty sure combining these two abilities is going to make sure we still have big baddies to fight.

A 50+ day warrior that can roll face on five plus PC's at once in melee who also has the ability to magically armor himself or drop nukes on folks?

That is plenty scary for me.

Without going too IC, it seems to me like the focus here was to make PC Templars more capable of dealing with a sorcerer PC to PC by making them fundamentally more similar in their abilities, instead of making them hugely more powerful than a PC Templar.

[Gimfalisette]

Yeah, that's not what Nyr said at all. At all.

[Reiloth]

The new sorcerer guilds still seem like a huge issue to deal with.

I've fought against some maxed out warriors with four people on my team and lost to them. Five against one.

I've had 60+ day characters absolutely destroyed by a single spell, from a non-sorcerer magicker. I'm talking instant immediate death with zero chance of survival.

I'm pretty sure combining these two abilities is going to make sure we still have big baddies to fight.

A 50+ day warrior that can roll face on five plus PC's at once in melee who also has the ability to magically armor himself or drop nukes on folks?

That is plenty scary for me.

Without going too IC, it seems to me like the focus here was to make PC Templars more capable of dealing with a sorcerer PC to PC by making them fundamentally more similar in their abilities, instead of making them hugely more powerful than a PC Templar.

50 day warrior is still going to have problems, son, when he's holding a sword and a shield.

It'd be rad if that were tinkered with so they could still cast spells while holding stuff.

[Reiloth]

That big bad is now the other city state.

It isn't at all the same.  Why?  Because it's a fight you can't win.  As a PC you are simply not capable of taking out the other city state.

A fight with a Sorcerer is also a fight you can't win -- At least an end game one -- Unless you yourself are a well-along Sorcerer.

If the Sorcerer is the Deus ex Machina of the game, then what is God above him/her? Staff.

At least it makes sense that a single PC can't take on a city state -- That's logical to me. But a single Sorcerer PC -could- take on a city-state, at least codedly, though being 8K players, they obviously wouldn't do something on that scale.

I agree with Dman that it seems with this change, PC Templars can legit take care of extraneous Sorcerer powers that are threatening the city-state, while before, it seemed to require attention from Red Robes/High Templars, and even then, progress was slow and questionable.

[Sephiroto]

Just heard about this today.  Gotta say, I look forward to it.  The old sorcerer class is easily broken, if you were lucky to live long enough.  It turns into a chore when the only RP you can facilitate is being hunted.  You're codedly limited in your ability to achieve more power because there are no social ladders for sorcerers to climb.

This new change allows sorcerers to be normal people and blend in like normal people,  more successfully.  They are no longer gimped by having watered down main-guild skills.  Sorcerers can now be awesome merchants, sneaky burglars, or powerful warriors.  They can make friends, real friends, who respect them for more than their magick abilities.  They can be social.  They can still achieve. They can die horribly.

It'd be rad if that were tinkered with so they could still cast spells while holding stuff.

Who says that this can't happen already?  Can it?  Find out IC!

[Reiloth]

something something specific spell something can't cast it unless you did previously and have the things something mid-fight probably gonna be hard something who's to say any of the sub guilds get that spell anyways something

[wizturbo]

It'd be rad if that were tinkered with so they could still cast spells while holding stuff.

Who says that this can't happen already?  Can it?  Find out IC!

And this is fundamentally why there's no point debating the balance part of this.  Only the staff have all of the info on what classes can do, everyone else has limited information, and is going to draw conclusions based on their own ignorance.  

[Reiloth]

Or experience!

Callin' me ignant...

[Reiloth]

Speculation on what 'is' or 'isn't' available to these Sorc Subguilds aside, it would be cool if Sorcery worked differently than Elementalism. If casting didn't require both hands free, and it was more of an almost 'thought based' system of magick. You will things into being, by knowing the proper phrases in your head.

What would ultimately be scary (to me) would be my best bud ever just immobilizing me with a simple phrase of words, and showing me a sneer before roasting my ass. It could be anyone, at anytime.

[wizturbo]

Or experience!

Callin' me ignant...

All experience has some blind spots.  

But in this case, we're all ignorant, as nobody knows what these sub-guilds have or don't have in them.

[Desertman]

The new sorcerer guilds still seem like a huge issue to deal with.

I've fought against some maxed out warriors with four people on my team and lost to them. Five against one.

I've had 60+ day characters absolutely destroyed by a single spell, from a non-sorcerer magicker. I'm talking instant immediate death with zero chance of survival.

I'm pretty sure combining these two abilities is going to make sure we still have big baddies to fight.

A 50+ day warrior that can roll face on five plus PC's at once in melee who also has the ability to magically armor himself or drop nukes on folks?

That is plenty scary for me.

Without going too IC, it seems to me like the focus here was to make PC Templars more capable of dealing with a sorcerer PC to PC by making them fundamentally more similar in their abilities, instead of making them hugely more powerful than a PC Templar.

50 day warrior is still going to have problems, son, when he's holding a sword and a shield.

It'd be rad if that were tinkered with so they could still cast spells while holding stuff.

You mean a 50 day warrior that can cast magic shields, wards, and buffs on himself before fighting is still going to have problems?

If you say so son.

[BadSkeelz]

Yeah, saying we should look in to letting them cast spells with their hands full is kind of like saying we should look in to letting them cast spells when they're knocked down. Or resting. Or unconscious. Cause why the fuck not?

[MeTekillot]

Yes, badskeelz, we are aware of your irrational hate of sorcerers.

[Reiloth]

Not really, Badskeelz.

Having items in your hands prevents you from casting magick, especially while in combat. So I was positing that Dman's theory of '50 day Warrior wielding awesome gear and also casting spells' is a little off the mark. There are IC circumstances that could lead to 'during', and the aforementioned 'buffing up before' is somewhat appropriate, but many of these 'before' spells will have lingering, viewable effects. I suppose I was going along with the 'ambush and you don't know they're also a sorcerer' bit.

Now, I would shit my pants if I saw that warrior suddenly drop his weapons and then unleash Mon Un Destroy spell at his enemies. But what i'm proposing isn't similar to 'casting while sitting, or unconscious', that's a bit extreme.