Change implemented for sorcerers

[Ouroboros]

...I am not sure if I'm just reading you wrong, but I feel there's an implied assertion here that everyone's opinions ought to be taken with the same weight regardless of knowledge of or experience with the topic at hand, which varies from poster to poster.

Yep, definitely reading me wrong there. I'm not arguing the same weight applies to all opinions, I'm arguing that some weight applies to all though. How much weight each one's opinion holds is a different matter entirely, agreed, but all opinions should hit the scale at least.

"Validity" of someone's opinion is of course subjective, and so you can't really make objective value judgments about it. But when it comes to turning one's opinions into persuasive arguments, I'd give more merit to those with more experience with the subject and better access to the "truth".  I don't say that to be dismissive of opinions nor sound arrogant, but some topics require more background knowledge to debate effectively than just "time spent" as a player and the ability to write a well constructed persuasive essay.

I agree fully, and I don't think you're coming off dismissive or arrogant. Writing ability and the date of account creation are by no means proper measurement to judge by alone. The former just (sometimes) makes it easier to communicate ideas and the later only indicates dedication. There are definitely many factors that need to be considered, such as experience with a given subject and access to facts, which you mentioned. There's also factors that are harder to judge on the receiving end, such as experiences that don't appear when looking at facts alone.

To offer a practical example, I don't think my account notes would state that I've served in various staff positions on other games over the past fifteen years. They wouldn't offer my experiences in other games in general, nor my education, nor my background in game development, nor what knowledge I have of this very game itself, per se. Sure, you could see at a glance what characters I've played, but what my experiences with those characters and past them have been would be largely unknown at a glance.

The point to which is... You can't judge a book by it's cover, and that applies to everyone. A book labeled "Staff Member" or a book labeled "Player" can have entirely different content than you might expect, or even the very same content. To properly judge them you need to actually crack them open and have a read, focusing more on what's written and less on what it says on the cover. Even if it says War & Peace, as I imagine mine does.

Threads like this aren't exercises in futility, since after all a lot of the opinions being expressed are true at any level of experience in the game. I think we've heard lots of good feedback, like...

They can certainly feel like exercises in futility to many though, I'm sure you realize that. I personally tend not to mind because I know how it feels on both sides. So long as I know someone's listening and offering the slightest consideration to my feedback, I'm content that my time isn't wasted. Sometimes that needs to be reinforced though, especially in the midst of a discussion of sensitive changes to issues both players and staff members feel strongly about.

You've done that now, which I appreciate. And Nyr even thanked us, what more could we ask for eh?

[Molten Heart]

Am I wrong in thinking the sorcery subguilds (the new sorcerers) are still accessible to those with 5 karma  through a special application, which is also the only way one can currently play any extended subguild?

Wait, you -have- to already have five karma to play an extended subguild? *whistles innocently and moves along, quickly*

No, sorry for any confusion.   Currently, using a special application is the only way to play an extended subguild (until point system is implemented and the process becomes an automated part of character generation).  My understanding is that sorcerer characters have been accessible on accounts with 5 karma through a special application.

[Harmless]

Even if a Sorcerer could only attain power by finding MacGuffin objects that taught them magick...Well...That would sure provide more of a plot than what they do now.

I was trying to imply that they had to come indirectly from players i.e. stolen books etc. in which case yes that is definitely more of a plot than practicing x branches y.

[Molten Heart]

Even if a Sorcerer could only attain power by finding MacGuffin objects that taught them magick...Well...That would sure provide more of a plot than what they do now.

I was trying to imply that they had to come indirectly from players i.e. stolen books etc. in which case yes that is definitely more of a plot than practicing x branches y.

Pretty sweet ideas right here.

[Harmless]

...

I'll also say this... There are definitely players who champion their own story, and there are players who champion everyone's story as well. Just as I firmly believe there are staff members who can be personally biased in their "championing" of the game, which history has proved with various staff members no longer part of the team. No one's perfect, but I think if as a staff member you feel all players only look out for numero uno... Well, look at it this way. If it were the case, few would join staff to begin with. A desire to champion the game is usually what brings a player to apply for staff, and chances are if you look closely you'll see that in their history as well.

Excellent point and true to an extent. Players often champion a large chunk of the playerbase in their efforts but not all. What demonstrates this are the very strong opinions players have for/against Tuluk, law enforcement in Allanak, templars, etc. Some players never "reach across the isle." Many choose to ignore their chosen disliked groups across their own characters.

[Dalmeth]

What gets me is this change seems less an attack on abilities of sorcerors and more an attack on the idea of a sorceror's abilities.

The amount of spells a sorceror has is not game breaking, it's the spells themselves.  Always has been.  Reducing the number of spells will do nothing.

All this does is give you a metric to point at and say you did something about it.   It's part of an effort I see in many recent decisions to trim many of the old notions into small, manageable icons.

But icons shouldn't be manageable.  They should awe-inspiring, terrifying, and wonderful.

Go ahead and keep depleting the intellectual and emotional landscape of the game.  It'll make people stop complaining, sure, but will it make them happy?

[wizturbo]

Threads like this aren't exercises in futility, since after all a lot of the opinions being expressed are true at any level of experience in the game. I think we've heard lots of good feedback, like:

- You want to feel like there are super-powerful sorcerers out there to be afraid of (there still will be, and if they aren't meeting their fear factor quota after these changes we can always address that.)  
- You want to feel like staff are there to support their plots, both big and small (which is one of our primary roles, and isn't changing.)
- Maybe there could be more interactive ways to handle the learning and spread of magick and sorcery (bringing sorcerers back down to earth a bit will hopefully help with interaction there.)
- Everyone would love it if big changes like this could have an IC plot behind them (not always feasible, but always good to attempt when it is)
- ... and a bunch of other stuff I won't go back over 10 pages to synthesize down.

I sort of agree with these being the key feedback from this thread, but I feel there's an underlying important one that is missing.  

Players want to feel that they're able to change Zalanthas in huge and meaningful ways, if they're lucky/smart/dedicated enough.  Sorcerers, being extremely powerful, were one of the potential roles that could do that.  Their removal erodes the fantasy of the game world.

[Ouroboros]

It's part of an effort I see in many recent decisions to trim many of the old notions into small, manageable icons.

But icons shouldn't be manageable.  They should awe-inspiring, terrifying, and wonderful.

Go ahead and keep depleting the intellectual and emotional landscape of the game.  It'll make people stop complaining, sure, but will it make them happy?

This.

[Harmless]

i don't think such strong rhetoric is really called for.... as long as nothing is really being removed from the game. I would love a change that makes something attainable but by different means. You can't gain spells like sorcerors used to. You now have "innate" access to only one of the four schools of magick and need to ICly learn or find teachers for them. Maybe they could be directly taken from incapacitated elementalists via some kind of brain leech. Maybe artifacts etc. Or simply, find another sorc, become literate, write spell books and scrolls. The bottom line is forcing cooperation. One uber powerful sorceror now becomes two or three PCs in cahoots or connected somehow via extortion or leeching, there might be new roles for psionics, and in any case there are more people involved.

To all this, I say, cool; some of it would require code added or staff intervention though. But at this point, all I can do is beg the staff for a return of the essence of mainguild sorcerors someday, by any of the various possibilities we and you can think of, or by just encouraging sorcerors to work together (by promising you will use less staff intervention to attack them, for example). also, again, not all of the quarter-sorcs should be 8 karma.

[Reiloth]

At the end of the day...

Nyr / Staff made it clear this change has just been rolled out. They probably gotta see what's what with these sub guilds even being played, and the balance issues there. Maybe a Full Sorc guild will be available down the road for special app. Maybe it won't.

I'm excited about these new sub guilds, and will be trying to apply for one after my current PC bites it. Wait! Maybe the next one after that...Gotta keep you people guessing.

[Armaddict]

lol, sarg casted firball, he can't telport away. Ged him.

The scariest kind of guildsniffing.

[MeTekillot]

i don't think such strong rhetoric is really called for.... as long as nothing is really being removed from the game. I would love a change that makes something attainable but by different means. You can't gain spells like sorcerors used to. You now have "innate" access to only one of the four schools of magick and need to ICly learn or find teachers for them. Maybe they could be directly taken from incapacitated elementalists via some kind of brain leech. Maybe artifacts etc. Or simply, find another sorc, become literate, write spell books and scrolls.

You're assuming that the new subguilds will be able to even be allowed to branch out into new spells.

[RogueGunslinger]

i don't think such strong rhetoric is really called for.... as long as nothing is really being removed from the game. I would love a change that makes something attainable but by different means. You can't gain spells like sorcerors used to. You now have "innate" access to only one of the four schools of magick and need to ICly learn or find teachers for them. Maybe they could be directly taken from incapacitated elementalists via some kind of brain leech. Maybe artifacts etc. Or simply, find another sorc, become literate, write spell books and scrolls.

You're assuming that the new subguilds will be able to even be allowed to branch out into new spells.

I think it's pretty safe to say they will have more than 5 skills per subguild.

[MeTekillot]

I am meaning that Harmless is assuming they'll be allowed to learn different Paths of magick.

[MeTekillot]

Re: Sorcerer's aren't gone, you just won't meet player sorcerers


Mantis and gith aren't gone either, but they're not player mantis or gith. So they're wholly uninteresting to me. I play the game to interact with other players in a certain environment and I feel like staff volunteer to facilitate that environment with animations, echos, and shit like that. Maybe I have the wrong idea of what staff do or what this game is about.

[Is Friday]

[Gimfalisette]

that made me lol, Friday

[James de Monet]

that made me lol, Friday

+1


+3 if it gets a +1 for each time it made me laugh

[LauraMars]

#thanksisfriday

[Harmless]

i don't think such strong rhetoric is really called for.... as long as nothing is really being removed from the game. I would love a change that makes something attainable but by different means. You can't gain spells like sorcerors used to. You now have "innate" access to only one of the four schools of magick and need to ICly learn or find teachers for them. Maybe they could be directly taken from incapacitated elementalists via some kind of brain leech. Maybe artifacts etc. Or simply, find another sorc, become literate, write spell books and scrolls.

You're assuming that the new subguilds will be able to even be allowed to branch out into new spells.

I hope they will be. Not assuming... I am saying as long as the potential to learn from other schools of magick exists for sorcerors then I am happy because nothing was really changed about them fundamentally.

however if sorcerors are restricted to their school of magick permanently then they are nothing more than defiler versions of elementalists with a different logic behind their restriction (sphere or mood instead of element). In that case, fine, but they -really- shouldn't be 8 karma based on their magick alone... so instead they are based on their dual class nature with a mainguild. Cutthroat had excellent ideas several pages ago on how to flesh out this "dual class" idea to make it jive with all the other options available to players. He mentioned the possibility of two sorceror subguilds (i like) or other elementalist dual classes for higher karma. Alternatively I think lower karma sorcerors with a subguild or extended subguild should be options as well to allow access to some deflining power without a requirement for the sorcery to come with a dual class concept.

If sorcerors are restricted to their school of magic permanently, then this change is a HUGE retcon with a capital R (for player sorcs, but obviously not npc or imm controlled ones). I understand all of Nyr's explanations for why this was done this way, and I have a feeling they are purposefully not elaborating on the ideas because they don't want to hint at what is planned or spoil what approach they decide on. But with the changes as they are, without any promise that more power can be attained (through other player involvement) then this change right now is not enough, like it is unfinished.

Anyway. As I stated in my first posts this change barely affects me. All the same, I would like to discuss this and hear staff explain not just what the problem was, but to expand on how this solution and further revisions can lead to a better overall gameworld.

(done editing, sorry, posting with a smartphone)

[Reiloth]

I do think the level should be dropped to 5 or 6. I can't see defiling/gathering as being the major need for 8 karma. They will still be a difficult class to play for many reasons, especially if they are flagrant 'sorcerers', however, their spell list will not be as staggering as before. It could be argued that playing a full guild, with a sub guild that has potentially crazy spells, requires oversight, but i'm not sure if 8K is the answer.

[Kismetic]

The facts are:  We have removed the full sorcerer guild as player option.  We have implemented sorcerer subguilds.  

This suggests that there's no backing down on this decision, but at least to add color to the game, would it be possible to learn a handful of tier 1 spells from other paths at creation?  Just so the PC is not completely hemmed into one category.  It's a bit jarring that sorcerors would all now be so brutally ADD.

Also, retain the ability to learn new spells via roleplay, scrolls, teaching, etc, at a much more reasonable pace than primary path spells can be learned.  Maybe cap their spell power.

For instance, my warrior/combat sorceror has spent all of his life learning to fight, but along the way, he picked up a nifty spell that lets him make his own food when he's out in the wild.  He can also intoxicate a foe, but he lacks the knowledge to cast that ability at full power.  (These spells are drawn from typical DnD spells, their inclusion in the game is not implied, and merely serves as a reference.)

I'm only suggesting this to mix it up a little, so we don't end up with a new breed of "spell sniffing" and also to give a little color to the background of these new sorceror prototypes.  Certainly don't tip the power balance, but add a bit of color.

Edit in bold.

[Patuk]

I kind of wonder what pc templars are going to devote their attention to now.

Probably some pickpocket who DARED steal some coins the other day. Meh.

[valeria]

I kind of wonder what pc templars are going to devote their attention to now.

Probably some pickpocket who DARED steal some coins the other day. Meh.

I tend to agree with this sentiment.  There is something to be said for having a big bad to fight against.

[RogueGunslinger]

That big bad is now the other city state.

I've run into 2 sorcerers in like 7 years of playing, so I don't think we're losing much in that regard.