Change implemented for sorcerers

[BadSkeelz]

OP = Overpowered. Though "that sounds stupid, Original Poster" is also factually accurate.

Elementalists can already be made virtually unkillable and highly destabilizing to the game world with current subguild selections (Extended subguilds included). There are also be a lot more of the buggers running around than sorcerers. Sorcerers have been made subguilds in exchange for a reduction in overall spell count. What you proposed was giving normal guilds full-access to a particular elementalist "sub-guild". In effect they'd have the bonus that the new Sorcs do (full mundane guild to hide behind and benefit from) without any of the drawback (specialized and limited spell-list). Granted, elementalists aren't quite as dangerous as a sorcerer on a spell by spell basis, but smashing two complete guilds together is still a terrible idea. Instead of the three or four sorcerers we have at any one time, we'd have a dozen or more super-gickers running around making a nuisance of themselves.

Over all I find these changes bold and interesting, and hope they translate to a better place for magick in game. My only regret is that I'll likely never get to put "killed a full-power sorcerer with a mundane" notch on my belt.

[Norcal]

Thanks and thanks also RGS!  Now that is a response I can understand, and agree with.

Cheers

[Patuk]

I'm a bit curious about what a sorcerer would need to do to have staff required to step in. I presume that anyone who managed to get 8 karma somehow would know better than to step in and go 'wish all hey dudes Imma blow up yaroch plz help' sometime. It sounds like many of the problems mentioned in this thread could be solved by far easier means than taking full-power sorcerers away from player hands; tell sorcs their class does not warrant special attention and be done with it. I very well may be missing something here, but I do not see how a sorcerer would be a problem as long as they refrained from trying to use their powers to set the world on fire.

[valeria]

This change makes me very sad.  My favorite story arc of my favorite character was responding to one of the immensely powerful PC sorcerers, and the thought of never getting to experience that again, or of being able to play it from the other side, really bums me out.  The possibility of some NPC popping up just isn't the same, because staff don't have the kind of time and energy to devote to breathe the same kind of life into that type of conflict.

"But you can hide it better now and think of all these really cool combinations you could do!"

[Incognito]

Sorcerers - once maxxed - are unkillable. Unless they make a mistake. Or (like Nyr said) if Staff intervenes.

How many of us can truly say - hey, I had a ranger or an assassin, and I took down a Sorc on my own??

And - the other thing is - once maxxed, most PCs (not Staff Avatars) probably discovered that there wasn't that much they could do ICLY with that much power in the first place - besides terrorising others and/or hoarding stuff.

Unless you app'ed in advance that you want to play a Sorc who, at a certain point in his life wants to accomplish a, b and c, AND got prior approval, not many Sorc PCs accomplished anything of great importance.

(I'm not looking for arguments to this statement cos obviously many people will have different opinions about it) - but the short of it is - there's not a single thing (barring the opening of the elemental planes), that is a long-term reflection of player-run Sorcs.

I think - what would be a good idea - would be for all sponsored roles and/or high karma roles - to put in a small note about their long-term goals to Staff - and get them approved in advance - so that there's no disappointment about not having had enough "resources" or "power" or "Staff support" to accomplish things.

This will really help - in the sense - that we'll see less of people who're thinking - hey, i'm an uber sorc, i'm powerful, now come on, Staff needs to make cool stuff happen for me, or make up plots where I can do more stuff....

I'm really happy to see this change.

[Inks]

I am glad to see this change, also what Incognito said.

[Delirium]

there wasn't that much they could do ICLY with that much power in the first place - besides terrorising others and/or hoarding stuff.

That is so incredibly untrue. Though I suppose with this attitude of "player plots are a hassle we don't want to deal with" perhaps it is more true than I'd like.

[Harmless]

Player plots being made more manageable may lead to us having more of them as players feel empowered to do what they want in the game without constant staff approval, especially if they are just pursuing pre-approved goals. Or, making everyone about the same level of strength will cause a higher level of caution, secrecy, and distrust, and less plots will happen. Time will tell.

[Rahnevyn]

Again, nothing has been "retconned" here. A retcon is a retraction from continuity - in other words, stating that something that previously "happened" did not in fact happen.That's not the case with sorcerers. Sorcery remains unchanged in its power and potential from an IC perspective. The only change is to the skills and spells of PC sorcerers.

I'm a bit curious about what a sorcerer would need to do to have staff required to step in. I presume that anyone who managed to get 8 karma somehow would know better than to step in and go 'wish all hey dudes Imma blow up yaroch plz help' sometime. It sounds like many of the problems mentioned in this thread could be solved by far easier means than taking full-power sorcerers away from player hands; tell sorcs their class does not warrant special attention and be done with it. I very well may be missing something here, but I do not see how a sorcerer would be a problem as long as they refrained from trying to use their powers to set the world on fire.

No responsible player would just wish up something like this out of the blue, no. But they'd still be capable of doing such things and would understandably want to use their power, so they'd probably send a character report in first and open a discussion with staff. We're still faced with the problem that the only thing standing between that character laying waste to Yaroch and killing every NPC in sight is an animated staff response, though. If we stepped out of the equation, the only coded means to stop such things from happening would the PCs and NPC soldiers hanging around, and their prospects aren't great. With more of a level playing field, there's hopefully going to be less of a need for a staff reaction, which I really hope will be more entertaining for everyone all around.

[Nyr]

We don't really care about maintaining perfect balance across the game.  We do care about addressing unbalanced situations, especially if doing so means we have to apply less of a heavy hand on a regular basis.

Out of curiosity, what do you consider a regular basis? Since the topic is specific to sorcerers, did the numbers over say the past few years justify this change? Or was it simply future-proofing?

The topic may be specific to sorcerers, but your post was specific to balance.  I've written at length on what we've done with the magickal defenses; that would be another area in which any magickers (not just sorcerers) were able to exercise a seriously overpowered advantage against PCs and NPCs within a city-state even though they would virtually face a serious disadvantage. That's a situation where without staff oversight, a city was fairly defenseless to anything a magicker PC might do.  The problem commonly occurred in Tuluk.  It was often enough that it was deemed something to address officially with code.

The numbers of actual sorcerers remain low in general.  How many people play sorcerers do not really matter if the guild as it existed lent itself to being overpowered.  As you said, certain combinations would be potentially overpowered under the right circumstances.  In this case, the right circumstances were simply time invested in the character and its spells.  So under the right circumstances (read:  late-game) a sorcerer was overpowered to the point of requiring direct staff intervention (or as someone else mentioned, sincere hope and faith in a player mistake that would translate into a deadly one for said sorcerer).

...As above, though, we don't really want to be forced into something solely because there is nothing else out there to oppose a PC's wishes except staff.

All well and good, but your repeated use of the word "forced" gives me pause. Forced in what sense? Forced in responding to the needs of a player-initiated plot, as opposed to one staff has planned out and found worthy of investing time in? Forced in the sense of urgency in terms of what might be scheduled on staff's calendar? Forced in having to deal with a plot that staff might not be in the mood to? I'm lost. It can't just be forced in the sense of having to act in any fashion at all, because again, that's one of the main tasks of storytellers at least.

Forced in the sense that if you read and process the whole quote, I believe that it explains what I am talking about:

We're more than happy to do so when the opportunity presents itself for us to enliven the world or represent the virtual world.

We are happy to animate the world in a realistic manner.

As above, though, we don't really want to be forced into something solely because there is nothing else out there to oppose a PC's wishes except staff.

We are not really fans of animating JUST because there is no alternative to be found within existing code or the playerbase.

When players plan out RPTs and stuff, we can animate for them.  For the most part, RPTs and player plots do not require staff in order for them to come off, succeed, or be thwarted, because other players are involved.  Staff involvement is optional and great to have.  When a sorcerer (and before the magick defenses changes, most any magicker doing stuff against Tuluk) planned anything, we had to animate for them.  It was not an option to do nothing or let the playerbase handle it because the situation had balance tilted entirely towards those with magick, and the virtual world had to be animated.  If we couldn't be around, we had to reschedule.  It simply required staff, period.

We like animating.  I sure do.  It's fun.  Bringing life to a plot that players have come up with, etc, is great.  But we have built stuff, coded in things, etc. so that it is not a requirement for every scenario, and so that players don't have to wait on us to do things they want to do, and so that we can be more free with choosing what we can animate.  When a sorcerer (and as before, magickers/etc pre-defenses) wanted to do stuff, they pretty much had to coordinate RPTs with staff...every time...just so we could provide an appropriate world response.

[Ouroboros]

We are not really fans of animating JUST because there is no alternative to be found within existing code or the playerbase.

No disrespect, but... tough titty? If alternatives existed in code or the player base, storytellers would rarely be needed to animate anything other then Vennant when they were feeling bored. The vast majority of the game is represented virtually though, and there will always be situations where staff has to bridge that gap. If that wasn't the case we could simply re-label staff into two camps of builders and enforcers, and eliminate storytellers entirely. Until the virtual becomes coded though, bridging the gap is one of the main things players need staff for.

Further, you don't think being forced into these situations is possibly a result of gimping the player-base in the first place? What did staff think would happen when you consistently lower the glass ceiling and the power level available to players. The further down the ladder you push us as to what we can do, the more need you create for direct staff intervention. You said it yourself, you're forced into such situations because alternatives don't exist in code or the playerbase.

The game needs apex predators in order to remain healthy. The fact is that any long-lived character with an intelligent player at the keys stands to be a force to be reckoned with, regardless of their guild class. Such players bring about the legendary names in the history of the game, and such have existed for every class. If the goal was to have a level playing field that required little to no staff intervention, half the guilds and races of Arm should be removed due to their potential power in the right hands, even if such happens once in a blue moon.

Should mul be removed next, just because on occasion one lives long enough to become a menace? What about the higher-karma elementalists, those can be pretty scary too sometimes. Are those next on the chopping block, just to be on the safe side? It doesn't seem to matter that statistically most never achieve such power, the fact the potential is there is enough. Where does it end exactly? And who is your power-level indicator by which you measure what's overpowered and what isn't? Is it the average player or veterans like X-D and others? Because if it's the later, you'd have to scrape the game as a whole before you could confidently say no circumstance will surface where a character is too powerful for the code or playerbase to deal with.

I doubt you have such plans, or at least I pray you don't, but I'm honestly curious as to how you see this working out. Is the solution from here on to just keep coming up with more and more automated code  or policy barriers between players and staff's time? It's starting to look like the current administration's motto is, "We don't trust you to handle this, but we don't want to be forced to handle it either, so we'll just make sure it never happens."

[charas]

Fuck it dude, let's go bowling.

[BadSkeelz]

I have a feeling these "new" sorcerers are still going to be quite capable of wrecking face and being predatory. The problem with the old sorcerers was that after a point, they reach a level of power where things like Red Robes were natural prey. Templars and Merchant Houses' had their glass ceilings lowered awhile ago, sorcerers didn't. My hope is that the new Sorcs will match up better to the other powerful roles we have right now and allow for more struggle, not a circle-jerk of ganking each others minions, trying not to get ganked yourself and waiting for the other guy to get bored and store.

(Though taking IC actions that are OOC frustrating to the foe is going to remain the best way for dealing with Sorcerers.)

[Reiloth]

It's not 'on occasion' when it comes to Sorcerers. Their end game is becoming a frighteningly powerful PC who has absolutely no other predator in the pool besides another Sorc PC (beam battle) or divine intervention.

I once played a PC that was not a Sorcerer per se, but could not be killed by conventional means. It took divine intervention to excise that PC from game-play. Then, that area of the game was closed. I was butthurt at the time, but in retrospect, I can see that aspect of the game needed to die off and not be a part of Zalanthas anymore. It was arbitrarily put in by a few Staff members, without much oversight or approval, and it got out of hand.

The glass ceiling you mention is intrinsic to that class -- By the end of playing a Sorcerer, you will hit your head against the glass ceiling, and do things that are potentially destabilizing to the game itself, and seem to require more oversight to properly maintain. Your plots don't involve PCs as much as they involve sweeping change -- Almost like building projects, or destruction projects. Most Sorcerers are rejects from society, and by in large have a bone to pick with Tuluk or Allanak or both. This usually leads to the kind of conflict (at least from what I have seen) that is fire and brimstone against entire city-states.

They have the coded magical power, now, to probably walk through the entire city and kill every single NPC. Does this reflect the sorcerer 'laying waste' to the entire city? How should Staff respond to this kind of action? Not to say Sorcerers even attempt this (They are 8K players) but the potential is there, and i'm sure microcosms of that kind of thing have happened, that require Staff to step in and say 'bro there are virtual defenses that would prevent you from doing x, y, and z'. In part this has to be why the city magick defenses were brought about as well.

[Wish]

Y'all ain't seen a warrior with advanced bludgeoning hucking fireballs yet, so like................I know I'm scared/planning my Wonder Woman concept.  

[Gimfalisette]

Y'all ain't seen a warrior with advanced bludgeoning hucking fireballs yet, so like................I know I'm scared/planning my Wonder Woman concept.  

Twinsies? We'll work for Kadius for a while first to get the appropriate bling.

[Reiloth]

"Yes, um...I was wondering if you had a gold-plated belt. And also a cape. A short cape."

[Wish]

Y'all ain't seen a warrior with advanced bludgeoning hucking fireballs yet, so like................I know I'm scared/planning my Wonder Woman concept.  

Twinsies? We'll work for Kadius for a while first to get the appropriate bling.

Wonder Woman/Supergirl?

[Gimfalisette]

Wonder Woman/Supergirl?

YES. Totally. Except, since we can't collude OOCly, just *shhhhhh*. OK? Good.

The rest of you, if you see a blingy, buff brunette-blonde pair hanging out together pretty soon at your local bar, just...it's nothing. Move along. (Do not hit on them.)

[Cale_Knight]

Oh man, I totally want in on this. Can I be a bumbling sidekick?

[Eyeball]

They have the coded magical power, now, to probably walk through the entire city and kill every single NPC.

To me, this is largely because most spells are devoted to either killing, making oneself tougher to kill, and escaping from or closing in on a target. A legacy of the hack-and-slash origins of DIKU muds.

I'd love to see more non-destructive spells be introduced. Like placing a rune on a door so it will only open for the caster or someone capable of breaking the rune. Raising a sorcerer's keep out of the bedrock when powerful enough. (Picture a small community springing up this way in a remote area). Spells of deception, like projecting a copy of oneself that seems real until physical contact is made. Affecting the weather. Creating symbols in the sky, visible city wide. All sorts of things to make the game more mysterious and interesting that don't involve player or NPC death.

[Reiloth]

It would be fun if Sorcerers got their own spells (Which I think they do) but in more quantity. Things that you don't see other Elementalists doing, like mirror image, or create sandstorm, things that you mention and more. Voldemort Death Skull is a great idea.

[Ouroboros]

It's not 'on occasion' when it comes to Sorcerers. Their end game is becoming a frighteningly powerful PC who has absolutely no other predator in the pool besides another Sorc PC (beam battle) or divine intervention.

It's on occasion because very few of an already very small number of sorcerers ever reach their end-game. The entire culture of the game is set against them exactly for that reason, to keep their numbers low via karma restriction and keep their lifespan short by marking them as kill-on-sight to the Known. On the rare occasions one such character does reach the end-game stage of their development, yes, they're a force to be reckoned with. As is any character that's progressed to the end-game stage of development. Take a maxed-out warrior played for 100+ days, who solo's mekillots when they get bored, and then tell me if we should remove that class as well.

Y'all ain't seen a warrior with advanced bludgeoning hucking fireballs yet, so like................I know I'm scared/planning my Wonder Woman concept.  

Some of y'all never encountered a <redacted>, sounds like. Warriors with magick aren't something new to the game, they're something quite old. As ancient as dragons, some might say.

Personally I'm definitely excited to see the sorcerer subclasses finally added to the game. It just has nothing to do with my feelings on the closing down of sorcerers as a main guild for players. The subclasses were meant to be just that, lower karma extended subs, with less power than the main guild but with as big a target painted on their back. What's happened here is entirely different.

[BadSkeelz]

It would be fun if Sorcerers got their own spells (Which I think they do) but in more quantity. Things that you don't see other Elementalists doing, like mirror image, or create sandstorm, things that you mention and more. Voldemort Death Skull is a great idea.

With a "Wazooo!" the green-tinged, magickal jerk flies up in to the air, exploding in to writing that you cannot understand.

[manonfire]

Again, nothing has been "retconned" here.

Try telling that to current sorcerer PCs.