Common View on Prostitution

[Angela Christine]

Maybe I'm just obtuse, but I've never read that the humans of Zalanthas are anything other than human, and therefore, I look to the inhabitants and cultures of Earth and myself to decide how whores would be viewed.

Actually there is an important physical difference, one that would lead to cultural differences relevent to this topic.  In Zalanthas the men are not inherently stronger or more violent than the women.  Women are just as buff and just as likely to kick your ass as men.  If women are not weaker, then they certainly don't need a male pimp to protect them.  If women are not weaker or meeker, then there is no reason for women to be victimized in one on one rapes or assaults more often then men.  No real reason for there to be more female than male sex trade workers either, except that it isn't hard for female PCs to get it free if they want.  :roll:  That small change, undeniable physical and mental equality between the sexes, will have a tremendous ripple effect on the culture and make it different from any known Earth culture.

Now the strongest, buffest people aren't generally going to become sex trade workers unless it is the "best" way for them to make a living.  Maybe you are lazy and don't want to do heavy labour, or you are really attractive and figure that for the next few years you could make more money whoring than doing anything else, or perhaps they just like it.  There will probably be a lot of temporary or part time sex workers, you need some extra cash so instead of taking in washing you take in penises.  No biggie, probably something many commoners have done at one time or another.  Permanent, full-time whores will either be skilled proffessionals who make a decent wage or desperate junkies who work cheap.

And there are prostitutes in our world who are not universilly reviled.  High class call girls do pretty well financially and no one spits on them when they walk down the street, perhaps something like classy courtesans.  They are often beautiful, intelligent, and well educated. They can even work as escorts and attend parties in the highest social circles.  They don't wear badges that say "I'm a whore" but they are prostitutes none the less.  It isn't necesarily a bad life.  Porn stars could be considered a kind of prostitute, having sex for money.  Porn stars may not be held in high esteem by everyone, but they do have fans and some are able to get more mainstream work in music videos or movies because of the, ah, exposure they got in porn videos.  

Angela Christine

[God]

You bring up good points! I never realized that women in Zalanthas were biologically different. I thought men and women were "equal" simply because of political correctness. The implications of this are amazing, and I'm glad you pointed it out me more completely.

Crazy! Women must have as much testerosterone as men. It's a wonder they don't have facial hair, deep voices, and physically dominant and agressive behaviour. Oh wait! Zalanthan women are physically aggressive. What the hell does masculine and feminine mean in a world like this?

I like it more when you can just stick to human beings as human beings really are. Heh, if it were up to me, women would get slightly lower on their strength and dexterity, and a bonus on endurance and wisdom.

[Delirium]

I would say a bonus on agility and wisdom, and slightly lower strength and endurance, but that's just me ;)

Not that I think it should happen.. for playability reasons, women and men in Zalanthas should be equal.

[Lirs]

Here in my country prostitution is now legal.

A whore can ply her trade on street corners or brothels without fear of legal repercussion and also has the privilege of paying taxes to support our good country  :wink:

While this doesn't mean prostituting onself is 'respected' it's fast losing the stigma it had in previous generations.  For my view.. this is how I see zalanthan prostitution, no run ins with the law and an easy way to make sid - perhaps not everyones cup of tea, but hey... who's to say I think any better of the money-grubbing merc?

[Cuusardo]

It works both ways in the US.  You've got a lot of people (typically Christians due to that religion's teachings that sex is sinful and wrong) who are working really hard to keep sex out of the media, schools, and pretty much anywhere but the married couple's bedroom.  Yet, you've also got a whole industry based upon sex, which includes pornography, nudie bars, and "escorts"/"entertainers".  And then of course there are flat out prostitutes, some of which work for money, some of which work to fund their drug habits.

In a more primitive, illiterate society people's views would be somewhat mixed, but not nearly as radically divided.  Prostitution is an accepted profession on Zalanthas, but that does not mean that there are not mixed views on it.  In a society whose main goal is survival, some people would look down upon a whore because they feel (s)he has no practical skills. There would also be others who look highly upon the high-priced whores who are paid handsomely by the rich for their company.  (S)he uses her/his talents to gain her/his income, and (s)he is doing very well providing for her/himself.

[flurry]

I never realized that women in Zalanthas were biologically different.

Men too, I think.  I'm not sure why sometimes it seems like people think it's just the women who are different.  

Crazy! Women must have as much testerosterone as men. It's a wonder they don't have facial hair, deep voices, and physically dominant and agressive behaviour. Oh wait! Zalanthan women are physically aggressive.

I don't agree with this.  They could be physical equals in the sense of stats, but for different biological reasons.   In other words, I don't think it would be correct to assume both men and women in zalanthas would have the same hormones at the same levels.    The fact that they don't have the identical secondary sexual characteristics supports this.

What the hell does masculine and feminine mean in a world like this?

I think you can readily distinguish between men and women by appearance among other things.   Neither is more physically capable, on average, than the other - but that doesn't mean there are no differences between men and women on Zalanthas.   Just none that matter in terms of stats.

[Angela Christine]

If it were up to me, I'd give females slightly better endurance (ability to endure) and wisdom ("women's intution", abilities developed to get around stronger men) with men getting slightly better strength and agility.  The result?  Women would be better magickers and mindbenders, men would be better at the martial classes.  If you give women wisdom and agility, with men getting strength and endurance, then women make better magickers and thieves, while men still make better warriors.

In our world men are generally taller, heavier, stronger and hairier than women.  From the character creation process we see that men and women have exactly the same range of height and weight (although in PCs the females often choose to be smaller while the males choose to be larger, go figure).  The stat ranges are the same for both sexes.  The level of hairiness is not specified, but both bearded ladies and hairless men do appear as NPCs in game, although they are not the norm.

Now in our world we blame men's agression and strength on excess testosterone and a chromasome that is lametably dammaged or mutated so that it has only 3 "legs" unlike every other chromasome which has 4.   (There is only one "Y" shaped chromasome, but every other one could be described as vaguely "X" shaped.  Adam's missing rib?)  But obviously testosterone is not the _only_ factor in muscle development.  It may not be that Zalanthian woman have the same amount of testosterone as the men, instead it may be that the women for some reason produce more growth hormone, or metabolize protiens slightly differently.  Or perhaps Zalanthian men produce -less- testosterone than Earth men, so the sexes are equal because Zalanthan men are less muscular than our men (and probably also slightly less agressive, less horny and less hairy).  Perhaps lower testosterone and the resulting lower muscle mass would help endure the heat by lowering the metabolic rate or something, I dunno.

There is also the theory that the planet itself is different.  It is spinning roughly twice as fast as earth, and may have lower gravity or lower apparent gravity due to increased centrifical force from the faster spin.  This makes giant bugs and turtles much easier to swallow, it would be hard to explain their survival in full earth gravity.  They would need to be insectoid without being insects, they'd need lungs and super-light but super-strong chitin.  (Perhaps alluminum?)  This also explains an elf who is over 7 feet tall weigh just 154 pounds and yet be strong and healthy enough to run 60 miles accross loose sand without needing a break, with lower gravity he can have lighter and less dense bones, almost like bird bones.  Who knows what lighter gravity would do to human development?  I like this theory, because it means all us flabby earthlings would be totally strong supermen on Zalanthas, simply because we are adapted for comparitively heavy gravity.  We might even be able to outdistance desert elves, at least until the heat killed us.  :?

Then there is evolution.  There was years of warring fiefdoms, a dragon that destroyed most of the known world's inhabitents and scarred the world itself for ages, wandering rabble fighting off attacks from giant insects and tortoises for centuries before we regain civilization in it's present form.  Everyone was a nomad, because during the time of the dragon any large settelments were destroyed.  There was no safe place to leave the women and children while the men went out to hunt or look for water.  The weak died, including a disproportionate number of women.  The strong women were the ones who survived the longest and had the most children, passing on their innate buffness to their daughters.  Today most Zalanthian women look like longshoreman, except for the few dainty throwbacks that manage to survive in the cities.  

As for being masculine or feminine, how feminine is a female dwarf?  How masculine is a male half-elf?  

AC

PS.  These are just wild, crazy theories, and should not be regarded as truth by anyone.  Any similarity to the Truth is purely co-incidental.  Carry on.

[Shekinah]

It is unfortunate that most people, when deciding how to view a class of people in Zalanthas, will look to the social norms of modern patriarchal cultures.

The cultures of the city states of Zalanthas are NOT patriarchal.  Sure, the sorcerer kings are men (as far as we know), but so what?  Read the documentation, people!  Women are NOT second class citizens in either Allanak or Tuluk, nor are they looked upon as less than men in most other Zalanthan cultures!

This situation alone will result in some VERY different cultural norms from what you or I are used to dealing with or reading about in our modern world.

3800 years ago, in a part of the world that is now occupied by various patriarchal tribal cultures, one of the western world's oldest civilizations flourished.  The city-states of Sumeria were united by ethnicity and to a lesser extent by religion.  Each city had its patron deity, but a common pantheon of deities existed.

Men did not 'rule' in Sumeria before the patriarchal and warlike pastorialists invaded.  In most of the city-states of Sumeria, the city temple was the seat of political power, with varying degrees of political influence among the merchant class.  Most of the city temples were run by women priestesses, and the socio-sexual taboos so prevalent today simply did not exist.

For instance, the human body was not considered a dirty, damnable and diseased instrument of sin that it is so often looked upon as today.  In fact, the very concept of sin as is understood today simply did not exist.

Sin in Sumeria consisted of denying the gods their due, excessive pride (huberis), actions that endangered the community, and misuse of the Sacred Mi, or holy laws made available to people by the ancestral deity Inanna when, as their legends spoke, she stole the Sacred Mi from her brother Enki.  The Sacred Mi were not like the patriarchal Levitican 'Ten Commandments'.  They were instructions for living and for doing....ANYTHING.  Art, war, poetry, music, crafts, agriculture, worship, trade, interpersonal relations, and, of course, sex.  Any activity that humans engaged in, was governed by one of the Sacred Mi.  There was a right way to do things....and a wrong way to do things.  To the Sumerians, not following the instructions of the Sacred Mi was unthinkable.

Sex and sexuality in Sumeria were not surrounded by the taboos that have existed over the past few milennia.  Sex was considered a sacred rite....a form of worship...and the decision as to whether a man or woman engaged in sex was his or her own, unless that man or woman was in a position of political power (obviously because there might be dynastic problems associated with any resulting offspring).

The temple of Inanna in Uruk engaged in activities which if a church of today were to attempt, would result in the church being closed and members arrested....if not lynched by the community.

Females were sent by their families to the temple to learn the wisdom of the goddess Inanna.  Some of these young girls were taken into the priesthood to serve the temple.  Each year, the temple held a sacred celebration in which the women of the temple, including the younger acolytes, would gather in the temple plaza.  Men would come to the temple and the priestesses would each choose a man and take him within the temple and fuck him.
This sacred rite went on all day and all night until all the men who came to the temple were thus taken.

Offspring resulting from this sacred celebration of the goddess of love and fertility were considered 'special'  If the offspring were female, they 'belonged' to the temple and were taken to be raised as priestesses.

Later civilizations looked upon this sort of celebration as sinful and disgusting.  They labelled it 'prostitution' and the acolytes of later generations of people who worshipped fertility goddesses and who also engaged in this activity were termed 'Temple Prostitutes'.

Many so-called historians have suggested that it was this sort of activity which brought about the plagues of sexually transmitted diseases of that day, such as syphilis.  There is bio-medical evidence, garnered through scientific research to show that the most likely spread of such diseases arose from people having sex with animals....something that was considered unspeakable by the Sumerians, but is often engaged in by patriarchal pastorial tribes whose sexual mores are inherently restrictive.

If you believe that restrictive sexual mores could never be the result of such disgusting behavior as bestiality, I suggest you visit your local porno video store.  There are literally thousands of videos displaying various acts of bestiality available in our very modern and yes, VERY repressed culture.

In Zalanthas, sexuality is considered a private thing, but it is NOT restricted by social mores.  Women take whom they want to their beds, just as men do.  So long as this activity doesn't result in political scandal, no one CARES who is fucking whom.  There is no reason that I can imagine, in either Tuluk or even in Allanak (which tends to be more prudish in dress than Tuluk) why a prostitute would be looked down upon simply for being a prostitute.  One may look down upon a street walker by reasoning of whom she is willing to take as a client (some human street trollips even take ELVES, for Tek's sake!!)  Some in Zalanthan society may look up to such a person (She never wants for 'sid and her children never go hungry).  In a world such as Zalanthas, it is those simple survival considerations that would be the most important ones in the minds of the people.

Who cares HOW a man or woman gets money, so long as it is legal and so long as they pay their taxes!

In Allanak, I've seen prostitutes treated as the lowest form of human life...and I'm not talking about human woman who would fuck elves for money...I'm talking about high-paid and very professionallly elegant courtesans.  It makes no sense to me that this would occur in Zalanthas.  In my opinion, such roleplay is based solely upon RL considerations and mores and, is thus, VERY poor roleplay.

In a city-state where prostitution is legal, but possession or sale of spice isn't, why would a prostitute be treated like dirt, and a spice dealer be treated like Tek's gift to humankind?  Believe me, I've seen both in roleplay in Allanak.  I'm not talking about treatment by legal authorities, I'm talking about treatment by the common man or woman, most of whom should so honor their Dragon God-King that they would flay a suspected spice dealer alive  (or any other such criminal bent upon poisoning the hearts and minds of the good people of Allanak).

Yes, in the absence of guidelines, I will fall back on what I know about RL humanity when seeking how to play my character in a particular situation.
However, there is PLENTY of documentation available on the ways and means of most of the cultures of Zalanthas.  First and foremost, our roleplay should adhere to these guidelines, except in the most extreme of exceptions....and yes, I believe there are always exceptions....rare thought they may be.

How about we give the prostitutes of Zalanthas a little more credit where credit is due.  In the absence of restrictive religious morals, selling your body sexually is NO different than selling it for ANY other form of service.

Just get over it, hmmn?

[Rindan]

Men and woman are different, even in Zalanthas.  It would seem silly hack out a section of human emotion to just to be completely egalitarian.  Just because they are different doesn't mean that it has to translate into woman being subservient, especially if they are equals in strength.  With this physical equality has come overall equality.  A woman can do whatever a man can do and then some.  That doesn't mean that they might not approach certain things differently, but both approaches would be accepted.  If you try and bend a woman's arm into doing something "like a man", she can bend your arm back to make you do it "like a woman".    Hence, you have a society where both perspectives, while different, are accepted as both being perfectly valid.  

Guys still might be instinctively a more aggressive even if they don't have a physical upper hand, and woman still might be instinctively more skillful at being peace makers and understanding social issues.  This would help explain why there still seems to be a disparity between the genders in certain professions.  A woman might make a fine guard, but she might simply, on average, be less interested then the average man might be.  That said, she still completely has the capacity to do it and a female guard would be utterly normal.  The average women might be slightly less inclined towards it, but it might only be skewed a little, and one could expect the women who do end up in aggressive professions to be just as aggressive as everyone else.  Just because a woman might be on average less inclined to be aggressive doesn't mean that there are not a horde of woman aggressive enough and willing to slip on some armor and kill with the best of them.

So, gender stereotypes might still exist to a small extent, and there would be a mark able difference between men and woman on average, but such stereotyping wouldn't be useful or used.  Women hold as much power as men, occupy leadership positions like they do, and for the most part can kick your ass if you don't like it.  People would be judged on a case by case basis because a chauvinist or man hater would promptly get their ass kicked by the members of the opposite sex if they didn't.  Neither sex wants to be relegated to a secondary position in society, and neither is ever going to get an upper hand, so the two simply have learned to live each other without bias.

Finally, as to the foolishness that AC was spouting at the Y chromosome being 'damaged', well, it is nothing more then that, foolishness.  Recent studies have shown that the Y is actually the most advanced and evolved chromosome.  Unlike the X chromosome which is annoyingly dependent upon always having a partner in order to fix its defects (and with all those free radicals floating around it certainly manages to get its share of defects), the Y chromosome is self sufficient and able to repair and take care of itself through self repair.  In other words, unlike the X which is always nagging for someone else to fix its problems, the Y is independent, self sufficient, and doesn't need to drag any other chromosomes into the drudgery of its problems constantly.  Some might say that the Y chromosome is more 'stable', less 'dependent', and doesn't constantly 'need attention' like some other chromosomes.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=y+chromosome+self+repair

[ShaLeah]

How about we give the prostitutes of Zalanthas a little more credit where credit is due.  In the absence of restrictive religious morals, selling your body sexually is NO different than selling it for ANY other form of service.

Just get over it, hmmn?

Tek bless you.  :wink:

I think people would stop being so unwelcoming to this kind of thing if it was addressed somewhere in the documents.

ShaLeah
-who would love to see that.

[Anonymous]

the PC I have now doesn't understand the idea of prostitution. why would anyone pay for sex when they can get it free? in a recent RPT the reward in a contest was a kiss from a buff handsome male or female. meh. she just entered the contest for the beer.

to each his own, I guess. But I don't see how a prostitute can make any money when people have no hangups about sex. In real life people go to prostitutes when they can't get someone else. or when their wife/husband isn't satisfying them in bed. or if they have fantasies they want to act out and a whore will do whatever for the right money.

In armageddon, you don't need to pay someone for any of that. it's available free. so why and how would anyone make a living being a prostitute in armageddon?

[Once upon a whore]

In armageddon, you don't need to pay someone for any of that. it's available free. so why and how would anyone make a living being a prostitute in armageddon?

I've played a whore character and she made a [SHIT LOAD] of money, most of her clients didn't even want sex!
She got paid to be held.
She got paid for a kiss.
She got paid for information.
She got paid for dances.
She got paid to humiliate and beat the fuck out of someone.
She got paid for massages.
She got paid for language lessons.
She got paid for seduction lessons.
She got paid to escort someone somewhere and be their eye candy.
And of course, she got paid for sexual things.
She did all of this without a pimp or sponsor.

She was a very high priced whore and while some scorned her asking price, they did so only before she serviced them. They were quite willing to pay after that.  :lol:
Why did she become a whore? Because she wanted to, definately not because she had to.

Some people will do whatever it takes to survive, the necessity of such a thing is purely dependant on character and background. People may hire a whore just to see if they're any good. Maybe they just hit the gambling tables and made a shit load of 'sid and feel the need to blow it, maybe they love their wife or husband but they suck in bed, maybe just because they can?

[X-D]

Simple convenience I'd say, specialy for the merchants, hunters, raiders mercs and other iso and semi-iso and anybody else that travels, or even people that don't, hunter coming in once a month probly does not want to mess around and has a bunch of sid burning a hole in his beltpouch.

Come to think of it, it would make sense since survival is so hard for most people for even non-prostitutes to entertain the idea if the price was right, I know that if confronted with somebody offering like 500 sid for a few hours of "work" that does not involve some big ugly thing trying to kill them, most of my pc's would jump on it...pun intended.

[Cuusardo]

to each his own, I guess. But I don't see how a prostitute can make any money when people have no hangups about sex. In real life people go to prostitutes when they can't get someone else. or when their wife/husband isn't satisfying them in bed. or if they have fantasies they want to act out and a whore will do whatever for the right money.

In armageddon, you don't need to pay someone for any of that. it's available free. so why and how would anyone make a living being a prostitute in armageddon?

A prostitute is definitely going to have sex with a stranger, provided that stranger can pay for the service.  That same person would probably get smacked if he or she went up to just some random person and said "Hey, let's do it."  That is why.

[Carnage]

A prostitute is definitely going to have sex with a stranger, provided that stranger can pay for the service. That same person would probably get smacked if he or she went up to just some random person and said "Hey, let's do it." That is why.

Drop your western views, please.

[Cuusardo]

It's not a western thing.  It's an issue of trust.

[Carnage]

It's not a western thing. It's an issue of trust.

No, it's pretty much a western view as it's western views that make you think of sex as requiring trust and such.

[X-D]

Carnage wrote:

No, it's pretty much a western view as it's western views that make you think of sex as requiring trust and such.

Really? Other then sleeping, specialy on zalanthas where people sleep armored and with weapons, guards inside and outside the room, can you think of any other time when you are as vulnerable as when you are naked (or nearly) and alone fucking someone?

At that point trust is something you have to think about, and I'm gonna trust a prostitute more then just about anybody else that wants to have sex, least I know what her/his goal is, money, the more the better, and a prostitute that robs or kills her custemers does not get much repeat business.


And to all those people who think that monogamy and jealousy are human nature, you might want to do some research on that, cause they are not in the least. Humans do not have instincts and there are many cultures around the world that don't even have words/terms/definitions for such concepts.

Course, In those same cultures, the idea of a prostitute/whore is completly foreign and even if you could get them to understand it they would only get a good laugh out of it.

[Anonymous]

It's not a western thing. It's an issue of trust.

Where does trust play into the matter?  Since any given woman has a 50/50 chance of kicking any given man's ass on Zalanthas, it doesn't seem the same risks to life an limb exist there.

[Anonymous]

In armageddon, you don't need to pay someone for any of that. it's available free. so why and how would anyone make a living being a prostitute in armageddon?

Why would you pay for mekillot steak when you could have some travel cakes?  I think quality might play into it.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

In real life people go to prostitutes when they can't get someone else.

Yeah, so? I'm -sure- their are people on Zalanthas that can't get anyone else... 'the uni-browed, split-lipped woman?' 'the cock-eyed, potbellied half giant?' Even Zalanthas has it's ugly.  :wink:

or if they have fantasies they want to act out and a whore will do whatever for the right money.

I'm sure even Zalanthans have fantasies that 'normal' people would never indulge them with.

The nervous, perverted templar says, rubbing his hands together, in sirihish:
"And... And then, I want you to put on this white dress, and my Vivaduan here will read something out of that black book..."

The nervous, perverted templar says, licking his lips as he eyes you, in sirihish:
"And then... Yes... And then, I'll whisk you off to some remote location in the Northlands, and we'll screw and go site seeing for a solid week... Of course, that'll be after we mingle with my extended family and shove cake into each other's faces..."

The nervous, perverted templar cackles, salivating as he rubs his hands together, eyes still on you.

The high-class ho raises her eyebrows.

The nervous, perverted templar says, in sirihish:
"Now, how much will that cost me?"

You think:
"This guy's insane..."

The high-class ho says, in sirhish:
"Well, honey... I think a few hundred thousand 'sid should cover it."

[Carnage]

Humans do not have instincts

Can I see a source?

[Lazloth]

And to all those people who think that monogamy and jealousy are human nature, you might want to do some research on that, cause they are not in the least. Humans do not have instincts and there are many cultures around the world that don't even have words/terms/definitions for such concepts.

Evolutionary psychologists and social anthropologists have argued the validity of [genetic] jealousy for some time.  I'm almost with Carnage here, as there are biological "instincts" that would be hard to pull from sexual union;  I'm sure this nothing new: women know that they are the mothers of their offsprings, men have no such parental certainties. As genetically encoded to reproduce, it follows, males should be more concerned about their mates' fidelity. (Less importantly, females may be concerned that their mate may bond with another and share resources.)  Whether men and women actually differ in emotional and sexual jealousy is a debate in (see: Buss, 1996; Kenrick, Trost, & Sheets, 1996; Trivers, 1972; Daly & Wilson, 1998) literature.  Additionally, evolutionary theories (with the reproductive core in argument) predict sex differences in the desire for sex:  males are more interested in sleeping with any woman that gives them the opportunity because they benefit from the minimal investment strategy. Women, on the other hand, would be much more selective in the choice of sexual partners because they only benefit from sex with high-quality males.  Western thought, yes, but biologically supported.

The concept of genetic monogamy, or biparental care, is similarly widespread across hundreds of specie of all class.

[X-D]

So, in the search for a source other then my college textbooks, I find that what exactly constitutes an instinct and a reflex has not been decided, So, while I research that, here is something else that I found, interesting reading. The funny thing about it is I had come to most of the same conclusions many years ago through my own observations.

http://www.suntimes.co.za/2002/09/22/lifestyle/life19.asp

Though, I was taught that an instinct is a inborn set of intructions on how and when to do something, A reflex is a simple physical reaction to a stimuli, the ability of a newborn to suckle used to be called the suckling instinct, if you touch a newborn on the cheek they will turn in that direction and attempt to suckle, later it was decided that this was really a simple physical reflex.

Anyway, still searching:)
lots of interesting things.

[Turned Off]

Why wouldn't the average Zalanthan not react badly to some random stranger walking up and propositioning them for sex?

"Who the Drov are you, and why should I even consider kanking you?!"