Common View on Prostitution

[Guest]

CRW asked the staff what the overall view was. I'm not staff or a helper. I wouldn't mind knowing as well. But my characters mostly had different views on it. One thought being a noble's concubine was an enormous honor. Another smirked because to her, it meant the person was unfit for anything other than spending her days on her back. Another was ambivilent and didn't give it much thought one way or another; everyone needs a hobby.

My current character considers public prostitution (as opposed to being a private concubine) to be worse than being a slave. She'd never pay someone for sex, and if she had the itch and a decent man wasn't around to scratch it, she could damned well scratch it herself for free, thankyouverymuch.

I think it depends a lot on the "class" of prostitute we're talking about. A common whore from the 'rinth vs. a noble's concubine, vs. someone who has goals and dreams and just has trouble making ends meet so does what she has to in ordered to feed herself until she can find a better life for herself. Each comes with different mindsets, and I think each would have different perceptions from other people attached to them.

Those are my 2 sids but I'd like to know if there's any "official" word on the matter.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I'm not sure I agree with you there... I think a prostitute would be a fairly accepted proffesion, no matter how skanky or low-class the whore in question is. Sure, they might get some snickers from their peers, but all in all, it's not that huge a deal. Here's some things to think about...
-Monagomy is rare on Zalanthas.
-Zalanthans have some very skewed morals when compared to ours. They don't have marriages, and they don't have a religion that tells them what is bad and what is good sexually.
-Similarly, sleeping with one, and only one, person is not an expectation among the populace of Zalanthas. It's not even something to be admired. It's just plain not important who you screw.
-People are going to respect other people with money. And trust me, there are rich, 'experienced' hookers.
-People are going to respect other people with a talent, who can support themselves, and are good at what they do. If they're good at giving BJs, then so be it.
-STDs don't exist on Zalanthas, to my knowledge.
-If they do, not many people would know their cause.
-Many STDs are 'silent'. You could have them and not even be aware of them (all this talk of STDs is just to point out that a prostitute wouldn't be mocked for having an itchy crotch).

In my opinion, a professional prostitute wouldn't be ridiculed, other than a handful of lame jokes made by jealous peers. However, a person that just flaunted their naughty bits for all to see, and slept outside their race often with no exchange of 'sid... That's another story!

[Carnage]

I've been the opinion that nobody really bats an eye at prostitutes. I think the lowest class, "I'll screw you for five 'sid" kind are ridiculed and mocked, just like you would look down on wannabe assassins who will knife anyone for fifty obsidian. Other than that, I don't think anyone really cares or gives more thought to it than someone would think of a miner or craftsman or house servant.

[Anonymous]

Um, you're both saying you disagree, but you're saying the same thing I'm saying. That it depends on the "class" of prostitute, and the person viewing the prostitute.

A wealthy commoner would probably look at a filthy rinth rat whore with disdain, not with jealousy. A poor rinth rat would look at a wealthy whore with jealousy and maybe even admiration. A noble in the north wouldn't look at a whore at all. A noble in the south would decide if the whore has "class" and if so, would probably try to take her as a concubine. If the whore has no "class" then they'd either ignore her altogether, or use her to service his guards, maybe.

Like I said, it depends. I don't know why you say you disagree, when you are saying the same thing I'm saying but just in different words.

The profession itself, I agree doesn't seem to be any more or less "worthy" than any other profession in the game. But the "class" of the "professional" I think does make a huge difference.

[Carnage]

I never said I disagreed. I'm saying that, besides the cheap inexperienced kind, I'm of the opinion that nobody really cares or gives it a second thought and considers it any different than other jobs. People look at it like a fledgling warrior: inexperienced ones are dopes who are clumsy. Their services are worthless. That's your 'Rinth whore right there. On the other side of the spectrum, the ones that are better with etiquette and pleasing are the equivalent of an experienced warrior.

Will some people be jealous? Sure, I think so. Why shouldn't that guard captain be indignant that, after giving years of his life to service of the house and risking himself to further whatever cause and all of a sudden some big-breasted woman who screws the noble suddenly has more sway than him. People are jealous for all sorts of reasons.

Then again, I think that's something that PCs do rather than the population of Zalanthas. One of the biggest problems in this game is that people bring over their ideals of sex and love. My suggestion is to think of a concubine/whore or whatever as a masseuse (*sp) or a cook. You enjoy a cook's cooking, but would you rather have them or an experienced member of the house if you had to choose? The former is easily dispensable, there's tons of people willing to have the opportunity, while the latter is something that can only be -made- through hard years that they may not survive.

[Angela Christine]

A wealthy commoner would probably look at a filthy rinth rat whore with disdain, not with jealousy.

Well, yeah, but that has nothing to do with the proffession itself.

A wealthy commoner will likely feel equal disdain for filthy 'rinth rat mercenaries and filthy 'rinth rat peddlers.  'Rinthers are not just dirty but also "unclean," they are poor and diseased, they have criminal tendancies, they have nasty manners, and they are clearly inferior since only inferior people would choose to live in a place like that.  (It may be that it wasn't them but their parents that "chose" to live in the 'rinth, but even before scientific interest in genetics people understood about traits being passed "in the blood").  A person with a low-class 'rinth accent that manages to get hired into a noble house guard will still be subject to snickers and wrinkled noses, at least behind his back.  The only thing lower than a 'rinther is an elven 'rinther.    Likewise a classy, well-spoken, attractive commoner will generally be treated pretty well, regardless of whether he works as a prostitute, an aide, a merchent, or any other legal proffession.

Social class is simply a more important factor in interaction than proffession.

AC

[Rindan]

I think that it is a profession that in its normal form probably would not be wildly envied, but neither utterly loathed.  I think it is ok to make quips about someone being a prostitute or associate it as a low brow insult to call someone a 'rinth whore.  Despite the lack of monogamy, parentage is something people care about.  There is a world of difference between being a half-breed and a full blooded human.  I don't see why that wouldn't extent to being the son of a whore being seen as less respectable then being the mother of a jeweler or noble assistant.

For instance, if someone a Byner a shit shoveler, even then being a mercenary is not a taboo profession, it doesn't always garnish a great deal of respect.  I think whoring would probably be on the level of a mercenary, or perhaps a little lower is STDs are common.  It is a profession, and an okay profession, but there are things out there better.  Not nearly as bad as it is viewed today, but you probably wouldn't brag that you are in the son of a whore.  I would call it low class work and I think it would be treated like such.

Now, as others have pointed out, that probably would not be the case with all whores.  The average whore is probably very poor, very dirty, probably takes a beating now and then, and probably is not much to envy.  A noble concubine on the other hand would probably be an envied person by a lot of people.  They get to be the in good graces of some Lord/Lady, and they probably are kept relatively clean and healthy.  Some people might look down on it just due to unskilled nature of the work (in their eyes), but I imagine most would probably be jealous of the idea of being pampered in exchange for letting yourself be screwed by the a local lord/lady on occasion.

So, can you throw whore about as an insult?  Sure.  I think it fits the game fine.  Want to insult someone's mother by calling her a whore?  Great.  Get descriptive and describe the types of patrons the victim's mother might have taken on.  That said, you probably should not jump out of your seat in surprise or disgust if someone claims to be a whore.  It is a normal profession.  It is generally not a glamorous profession that pays a great deal or is widely respected in my opinion, but it isn't that bad or that big of a deal.

[God]

Whoring is the equivalent of begging, only lower. You let some disgusting, mutated, vicious man(doesn't really matter what they look like, long as they pay) stick his dirty thing into you for a few 'sids. Generally you have a lot of STDs, a lot of bruises, and are very desperate. Usually you'll have a pimp, who pretty much owns you, in order to avoid getting overly abused by customers. That would be my view of the average whore.

You can't get lower than a whore, in my opinion. I'd pity them more than loathe them, but women might view it as particularly disgraceful.

[Anarchy]

Sex in Armageddon - a normal non-taboo thing. Having sex with another breed is a diffrent matter. Got an itch, well scratch it because you might be dead tomorrow.

Whores - Subject to snickering, the butts of all jokes. Alot of them out there. Dirty, poor street/brothel workers. In a powerarch, i would rank them above untribed, unclaned 'rinther elves.

Courtesans - Same as everyone else its a -damn- good paying job and you have more of a choice to pick your patrons. Clean, neat, well spoken private workers. These girls would be joked about only because in a world based on power, they took charge and used what they had, in a powerarch i would rank them right under nobles, next to a Borsail house captain.

Concubines - The Nobles play things, above Whores, below Courtesans but can wield so much more power. Snicker at them, but behind there backs, you will never know how much sway they have over there noble patron, and you REALLY do not want a noble to take notice of you. on a powerarch chart, i would rank them next to Courtesans, and even above lesser house junor in some case. Well spoken, clean neat wealthy, they would be treated like a noble's child.

[aeshyw]

Please, please, please, please please - leave your Western morals and ideas about sex out of Armageddon.  The morality in the game is not remotely similar to what most people practice in real life, and there is no church to introduce the ages old 'if it feels good it must be bad' logic. Heck, most templars have concubines of their own.

A concubine and a whore are also two very different things. A whore is generally self-employed, or in the service of some shady organization or another, and without noble sponsorship.  A concubine is a servant that is -so- trusted they are allowed to sleep in their own lord/lady's bed - a position that could easily place said noble's life in danger if they are not loyal.  A prostitute does not have to show loyalty to their customers. A concubine had better show loyalty or heads will roll, quickly. In addition, a poorly behaving concubine or one who is seen in public as ill-suited, is a drain on their noble's social status..so they are generally chosen with some care.

Add to that the fact that in the social structure, concubines and or consorts are fairly highly ranked:

http://www.armageddon.org/general/ranktable.html

A concubine or consort sometimes has the ear of their noble. They sometimes can influence who is hired and who is not.  A good concubine may be serving their noble in many other ways not obvious to those who watch.  It is not only inappropriate to confuse Western morals with those your character might logically have...it can in many cases be dangerous.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Um, you're both saying you disagree, but you're saying the same thing I'm saying.

Did I?

I think it depends a lot on the "class" of prostitute we're talking about.

I'm not sure I agree with you there... I think a prostitute would be a fairly accepted proffesion, no matter how skanky or low-class the whore in question is.

Hmm. Yeah, doesn't seem like I did...

Being a whore is not a cause for scorn. Think of it as being a postal worker or garbage man on Earth... Not flashy, and people might try and make fun of you for it, but really, no one has any huge hatred for you because of it. As I and others said before, morals on Zalanthas are way different than those on Earth. You could go around and bang everybody in the Known World, just lie on your back and spread your legs in the middle of Tektolnes' court. People might snicker, but hell... They'd probably join in.

Furthermore, a concubine and a self-employed whore are going to be different, just like a mercenary and a Borsail Captain are going to be different, just like a mugger and a licensed assassin are going to be different. The thing is, not everyone can be a concubine, Captain, or assassin. One job might be more glamorous and high-paying, but that doesn't mean the other one is something you should stick up your nose at. In general, the PC populace represents some of the more... For lack of a better word, interesting, people of the Known World. Players are the real movers and shakers. Sure, there's always going to be a PC playing a desperate 'Rinth rat, but in the end, that 'Rinther could easily someday be an expert assassin, or a leader of an enormous gang. With us ambitous players constantly changing the face of the Known World, it can be easy to forget that a lot of the Known World is constant. That is, your average commoner is probably stuck in a dead-end job with no clear end in sight. Some people have no jobs, just dig through human feces and refuse, looking for some 'sid or some food. There -really- are worse professions than a hooker out there, and it's a fairly common and accepted job.

Here's an example. You hate elves. Most people that aren't elves do. But it'd be damn stupid to go around and beat up every elf you see, wouldn't it? There are elves around you constantly, almost as many of them as there are humans. Trying to fight them all would be a good way to get yourself killed. It's the same way with whores. It's good way to get money. It might not be the best way, or the most 'honorable' way, in your opinion, but you might stir up some bad blood with their superiors when you try and point that out to them. Making blanket insults is a good way to get yourself into a bad situation.

Or at least lose you senior citizen's discount. :wink:

[Krath]

*rub his hands together with an evil glint within his eyes as he plans his next prostitute killing character, Jak the Ripper!*

[ShaLeah]

Please, please, please, please please - leave your Western morals and ideas about sex out of Armageddon.  The morality in the game is not remotely similar to what most people practice in real life, and there is no church to introduce the ages old 'if it feels good it must be bad' logic. Heck, most templars have concubines of their own.

This should be in the introduction page of:
http://www.armageddon.org/intro/whatyouknow.html
So should many other generalities of Zalanthas.

I'd like to think that whoring, like killing and protecting are, is very prevalent on Zalanthas.

That said, I have to agree, whoring is directly dependant on the class, manners, cleanliness and looks of the whore.

To insult a woman who sells services, call her a rinthy whore, that's the lowest of the low in the whoring ladder.
Calling a woman a whore is not, in my humble opinion, an insult at all.
Grabbing your crotch lewdly, mouth twisted in a sneer, you say to the voluptuous. silk-clad woman, in sirihish:
  "Feck you, ya whore!"
Tossing her honey-green mane over her alabaster shoulders with a husky laugh, her eyes taunting as they stare at your stained, ragged gear,  the voluptuous, silk-clad woman says to you, in sirihish:
  "I sincerely doubt you could afford me, sellsword."

In Allanak, I would say that most high classed whores would probably end up being concubines. You can bet Lord Tor is not going to want Lord Borsail and Lord Valika riding his kank, much less fucking his whore, so eventually, if a whore is successful, she or he would have to make a political choice, where he or she is going to place his or her loyalties. That would be something a wealthy, succesful whore would aspire to. Lower whores would admire her from afar, wanting to be like her, once they got over the jealousy that is.   :wink:

In Tuluk, whoring would be an art. Everything is an art in Tuluk, making love would be no exception.  Sure, they lose noble and templar patrons, but they make up for it for living a lot longer due to their not being claimed. They don't have to play the political side like the whores in Allanak do and that is well worth it, ensures longevity. Anyone gets too possessive? Get yourself a master of assassination, no problem. Gotta love that Tuluki custom.  :twisted:  



ShaLeah
-who wishes people would get over their real world opinions when playing the game.

[Cyrian20]

I believe it doesn't really matter, No one would really care, you live in a world that was torn apart long before your great grand parents even shared thier first tube of spice. It is a dirty dead world, and you risk the chance of dying at a regular basis. If not from some dirty elf then from some grumpy dwarf or some bynner flying off the shield wall and landing on you. So why would anyone give a damn if someone found a way to pass the time enjoyably as well as making sid off of it. Sex makes you feel better after a hard day of slaying gith and living off whatever roots you could find in the wastes.

Look at Britian before the Christian movement. Men would patrol and when they stopped through towns they would spend time with the local purchasable women. Not because they considiered themselves conquerers or somesuch but just because they wanted to have a good time as did the women, But since they couldn't very well enjoy themselves with the soldiers and work a 9-5 at the same time they got paid for it. No one thought any less or more of them and when the soldiers left they continued thier life with little if any hassle. I see that sort of the way it would be in arm. We aren't westerners we are armers and as such western morales don't really belong

[My 2 sids]

Two things...

A.  I'm not sure people would have pimps.  I would think perhaps groups/brothals... but not pimps.  I think the idea of a pimp would be too sexest in a world where there is no "fair sex" to protect.  Protection would come in the form of partners or groups... but not just some burly protection guy who owned a girl.

B.  Anyone ever watch the old show Gunsmoke?   I think Miss Kitty is an -excellent- example of what a whore would be like in game.  A buisness woman, tough, has friends, is proud of her employment... but dosen't let the job run her life.

I personally think why we have gotten so confused as to the roles of whores in game is because how some PCs play the whore.  The PC comes across more like 'arm jewrey' looking for a good time, than an actual buinsess person.  Every other profession, its said to be poor RP to be 'working' every moment one is logged in.  But there are some whore type PCs who insist on 'working it' every time they log on.   Maybe I'm wrong... but I never see some PCs with just friends or a "comforatble t-shirt and jeans' type outfit.

[marko]

Just something I would like to point out - a concubine is not a whore in any way shape or form.  A concubine by modern definition is:

A woman who cohabits with a man without being legally married to him.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

In ancient times this definition was a bit different:

Taking the western view - a child of a wife received full inheritance and was the child of the father, a child of a concubine was the child of the concubine and received no inheritance (although they received a lifetime of gifts so long as the father lived).

A concubine was a secondary wife.  A wife of lower legal status.

As we move eastwards through societies, the status of a concubine becomes even more blurred with the introduction of harems.  To keep track of the status of a harem's membership there was a need for different words.  What is interesting is that the children of these concubines often had full legal rights of inheritance.

For instance:

Japanese emperors were allowed - 3 consorts, 9 wives of high rank, 27 wives of lower rank, and 81 concubines (William Price, Japan and the Son of Heaven).

In Islam law:

"What is a concubine?

The slave girl that was allotted by the state to the respective household, thus became the consort of one member of the household. Only this person was allowed to have a sexual relationship with this slave girl. The difference between this person's wife and the slave girl was that his wife came into his house through the proper marriage contract (Nikaah), and the slave girl was allotted by the state.

What is the status of the offsprings of this relationship-- to the man, in their lives, wealth and will etc?

The children were exactly like the other children from the person's legally wedded wife. They were to be given exactly the same rights as his other children. The children of the slave girl would inherit the property exactly as the other children. There was absolutely no difference amongst the children. And once any slave girl bore a child, she could not be sold to anybody else and thus became a permanent member of the household.

Of note is this:

Prostitution is a result of illegal lust, and is a huge sin in the eyes of Allah. The allocation of slave girls was a issue of the times to envelope the woman taken as slaves in a war into the Islamic society. "

Source: ZanAmu

Now, this is all fine and dandy - I could continue to point out differences in the usage of concubine in the real world but how does it relate to Armageddon?  

Well, to the best of my knowledge a concubine in Armageddon is akin to the 'western' definition - a wife (read as exclusive sexual partner) of lesser status where the children are the children of the concubine and not the father.

A consort  is a favored concubine - a higher social ranking.  

A courtesan is simply a high paid prostitute.  

Therefore - once again - a concubine is not a prostitute.  Prostitutes have their place and concubines have theirs.

[2 Lazy 2 Login ShaL]

But there are some whore type PCs who insist on 'working it' every time they log on.   Maybe I'm wrong... but I never see some PCs with just friends or a "comforatble t-shirt and jeans' type outfit.

How many whore PC's have you ever met in game that admitted to being whores? I've personally met one and I've been playing two years. The other PC whore I met was a former whore.

I think you're confusing sensual women with whores... women who undulate their hips as they walk, who speak in throaty whispers or purrs, who ooze sexuality, are not whores.  Fuck me PC's maybe, but not whores.

I find it interesting that My 2 sids chose to use whore type PC's, -that- is the mentality that keeps people thinking in modern day terms. What do you mean by

whore type PC's

exactly?
Good looking? Lots of male admirers? Dripping in silk? The way they speak, move and act? Since I've played the game, people have degraded any woman seen as beautiful or sensual and I personally think we need more women like that. Strong, cunning, secure in their abilities, secure in their sexuality, powerful, the product of -alot- of disdain from more insecure women and men, some might even say hatred. Why is it seen as a bad thing for a woman to be sexually powerful? Why does that automatically make her a "whore type"?

Let's face it, until we can get the players to act according to the world, we're going to have antipathy towards sexually powerful PC's.


ShaLeah
-who finds the "whore type" statement to be speaking louder than most of the answers to this post.

[Rindan]

I find it interesting that My 2 sids chose to use whore type PC's, -that- is the mentality that keeps people thinking in modern day terms. What do you mean by

whore type PC's

exactly?
Good looking? Lots of male admirers? Dripping in silk? The way they speak, move and act? Since I've played the game, people have degraded any woman seen as beautiful or sensual and I personally think we need more women like that. Strong, cunning, secure in their abilities, secure in their sexuality, powerful, the product of -alot- of disdain from more insecure women and men, some might even say hatred. Why is it seen as a bad thing for a woman to be sexually powerful? Why does that automatically make her a "whore type"?

Let's face it, until we can get the players to act according to the world, we're going to have antipathy towards sexually powerful PC's.


ShaLeah
-who finds the "whore type" statement to be speaking louder than most of the answers to this post.

I think the common objection against 'whore type PCs' in the context of the large breasted, pale skinned, silk clad, perfectly clean person is not so much that they are pretty, just that they are they can blatantly ignore reality.  They walk through a sandstorm, through the commons, down a shit covered back alleyway, and into the Gaj in their slippers without a hood or proper cloaked for walking through a sandstorm.  It certainly isn't universal.  I recall one pretty woman who went to great lengths to be good looking, she just kept it reasonable.  She had her provocative clothing, but she always wore a working (if provocative) pair of boots, had a decent (but still nice) cloak which she would just take off when inside.  Storms messed up her hair and she got dusty like everything else does.

It would be a very strong misrepresentation to label it as a female PC only problem.  I can't even begin to recall how many times I have read some male descriptions and groaned a little because they are sheathed in muscles of doom, when in combat start doing amazing combat maneuvers with their day old character, and when hurt never so much as flinch at the pain of having an arm removed or suffering templar torture.  It is pretty common and normal to want to pick the extreme ideal of a gender to the point of absurdity.  You have the drop dead gorgeous woman who float across the ground and have never seen dirt, and then the man who drips with testosterone and won't cry out even as you pull out his intestines and wrap them around his neck.

I think when dealing with these people it is best just to ignore it and play as realistically as possible.  While sitting next to the dirtless woman, start picking at your fleas.  When fighting the macho man, beat him senseless with utterly ordinary combat maneuvers, or when hurt cry out in pain.  Better just to lead by example.  I think characters that fall under radical extremes tend to be people who are new and have not caught on yet that Armageddon is not a traditional fantasy RPG.  These people tend to catch on pretty quickly if they have role models and mentors that show them the way through their own good RP.

[Delirium]

Sexually powerful PCs I have no problem with. PCs with velvety skin that's pale and got nary a wrinkle or scar, and perfect hair and big beautiful non-squinted eyes with long pretty perfect curling lashes and lovely hands and wonderfully sumtuous curves with a perfect figure.. I do. I should have them persecuted for being a magicker, since that's the only way I can think of surviving in that condition, without being a noble, templar, or pampered member of a merchant House.

"But, I made her nose a teeny bit crooked, so it's okay! She's not an f-me!"

[CindyLou]

I think 2 Sids is saying characters who exist primarily for the purpose of sex. Whether acted out or fade to black. Not just sensual confident sexy women, but women who use their sexuality - not sensuality - to gain favor from whoever. That favor would be in the form of payment (prostitutes) or lavish gifts (courtesans/concubines), or their lives (offering sex to a templar who just caught them trying to steal for example).

Correct me if I'm wrong 2 Sids, but that's what I got from your post, and if it's correct, then I agree.

[Gorobei]

I'm not going to post an opinion here, but I'd like to direct everyone's attention to this:

Hemlines are generally shorter in the northlands, where an above the knee skirt is considered acceptable, but would mark a woman as being of decidedly ill repute in the south.

This is a slightly dated doc, though.  It still labels Tuluk as "Northlands (formerly Tuluk)".

[DrunkenSalarr]

In my years of playing Arm, my various characters have met quite a few whore PCs, they kind of disapeared for a few years, but shortly after I first started playing, there was a fully working PC-run brothel in 'Nak.  I rememer reading the rumor boards (this was before we had talk <NPC> rumor) and from what I heard, they were a very well run business.  

My PC at the time was friends with a number of the employees there, everyone from the whors to the bouncers.  It was a very young character, and so had no intention of actually making use of them, but was treated as kind of an adopted little brother.  I rememer that they didn't "work" all the time, they were very much like other clans in that they had their working hours and their time off.  Yes, they were looked down upon by some PCs, but for the most part they were accepted.  Just another aspect of the world being played out by PCs.

[God]

Obviously, most of us people in the Western culture don't have much experience with whores. I find it very ridiculous that people continously say, "Leave your old-fashioned Western values behind!"

Maybe I'm just obtuse, but I've never read that the humans of Zalanthas are anything other than human, and therefore, I look to the inhabitants and cultures of Earth and myself to decide how whores would be viewed.

1) Correct me if I'm wrong, but Western culture is most sexually liberal and egalitarian culture in the world. Whores have never been "respected" as a general rule in Western culture. Can anyone tell me a culture where they are respected?

2) "Hot" women are probably more likely to settle down with a powerful, rich husband than work on the streets or in a brothel. I don't think anyone here can imagine the trauma associated with whoring. In this "apocalyptic" world, I can only see whoring being more dangerous and shaming.

I'll go on if I have to, but my point is, whoring is the lowest of the low. Expect to be disdained by women, used by men, and generally live a miserable life.

[DrunkenSalarr]

Whores have never been "respected" as a general rule in Western culture. Can anyone tell me a culture where they are respected?

Japanese Culture.  I can not recall the actual term but  I wouldn't exactly call them whores, as that is far too dirty a term for what they are, but they do sell their bodies for money.  It is a highly respected profession, and has been for quite some time.

[God]

Damn, you got me. I forget about those naughty Japenese and their sex addiction.

Everyone seems to assume that Zalanthas is very sexually free and open or something, but I don't see why. It's been scientifically shown that humans are best suited for monogamy - children take a long time to develop, and they develop best with both parents. I see monogamy as the norm on Zalanthas, whether there is marriage or not.

Consider the death-rate on Zalanthas. Then, consider that the population has remained fairly stable(ie, it doesn't halve every generation, or even significantly decrease). Most women are going to be having children, and a LOT of them at that. And in order to raise children, you need a stable home, income, and all that. Usually takes a man's help.

I know, I'm going off in tangents outside the topic, but the point is, women aren't going to view whores as a good part of society. Men will be happy to have their itch scratched, but I know that men don't really "like" or "respect" whores as a profession.

[Angela Christine]

Maybe I'm just obtuse, but I've never read that the humans of Zalanthas are anything other than human, and therefore, I look to the inhabitants and cultures of Earth and myself to decide how whores would be viewed.

Actually there is an important physical difference, one that would lead to cultural differences relevent to this topic.  In Zalanthas the men are not inherently stronger or more violent than the women.  Women are just as buff and just as likely to kick your ass as men.  If women are not weaker, then they certainly don't need a male pimp to protect them.  If women are not weaker or meeker, then there is no reason for women to be victimized in one on one rapes or assaults more often then men.  No real reason for there to be more female than male sex trade workers either, except that it isn't hard for female PCs to get it free if they want.  :roll:  That small change, undeniable physical and mental equality between the sexes, will have a tremendous ripple effect on the culture and make it different from any known Earth culture.

Now the strongest, buffest people aren't generally going to become sex trade workers unless it is the "best" way for them to make a living.  Maybe you are lazy and don't want to do heavy labour, or you are really attractive and figure that for the next few years you could make more money whoring than doing anything else, or perhaps they just like it.  There will probably be a lot of temporary or part time sex workers, you need some extra cash so instead of taking in washing you take in penises.  No biggie, probably something many commoners have done at one time or another.  Permanent, full-time whores will either be skilled proffessionals who make a decent wage or desperate junkies who work cheap.

And there are prostitutes in our world who are not universilly reviled.  High class call girls do pretty well financially and no one spits on them when they walk down the street, perhaps something like classy courtesans.  They are often beautiful, intelligent, and well educated. They can even work as escorts and attend parties in the highest social circles.  They don't wear badges that say "I'm a whore" but they are prostitutes none the less.  It isn't necesarily a bad life.  Porn stars could be considered a kind of prostitute, having sex for money.  Porn stars may not be held in high esteem by everyone, but they do have fans and some are able to get more mainstream work in music videos or movies because of the, ah, exposure they got in porn videos.  

Angela Christine

[God]

You bring up good points! I never realized that women in Zalanthas were biologically different. I thought men and women were "equal" simply because of political correctness. The implications of this are amazing, and I'm glad you pointed it out me more completely.

Crazy! Women must have as much testerosterone as men. It's a wonder they don't have facial hair, deep voices, and physically dominant and agressive behaviour. Oh wait! Zalanthan women are physically aggressive. What the hell does masculine and feminine mean in a world like this?

I like it more when you can just stick to human beings as human beings really are. Heh, if it were up to me, women would get slightly lower on their strength and dexterity, and a bonus on endurance and wisdom.

[Delirium]

I would say a bonus on agility and wisdom, and slightly lower strength and endurance, but that's just me ;)

Not that I think it should happen.. for playability reasons, women and men in Zalanthas should be equal.

[Lirs]

Here in my country prostitution is now legal.

A whore can ply her trade on street corners or brothels without fear of legal repercussion and also has the privilege of paying taxes to support our good country  :wink:

While this doesn't mean prostituting onself is 'respected' it's fast losing the stigma it had in previous generations.  For my view.. this is how I see zalanthan prostitution, no run ins with the law and an easy way to make sid - perhaps not everyones cup of tea, but hey... who's to say I think any better of the money-grubbing merc?

[Cuusardo]

It works both ways in the US.  You've got a lot of people (typically Christians due to that religion's teachings that sex is sinful and wrong) who are working really hard to keep sex out of the media, schools, and pretty much anywhere but the married couple's bedroom.  Yet, you've also got a whole industry based upon sex, which includes pornography, nudie bars, and "escorts"/"entertainers".  And then of course there are flat out prostitutes, some of which work for money, some of which work to fund their drug habits.

In a more primitive, illiterate society people's views would be somewhat mixed, but not nearly as radically divided.  Prostitution is an accepted profession on Zalanthas, but that does not mean that there are not mixed views on it.  In a society whose main goal is survival, some people would look down upon a whore because they feel (s)he has no practical skills. There would also be others who look highly upon the high-priced whores who are paid handsomely by the rich for their company.  (S)he uses her/his talents to gain her/his income, and (s)he is doing very well providing for her/himself.

[flurry]

I never realized that women in Zalanthas were biologically different.

Men too, I think.  I'm not sure why sometimes it seems like people think it's just the women who are different.  

Crazy! Women must have as much testerosterone as men. It's a wonder they don't have facial hair, deep voices, and physically dominant and agressive behaviour. Oh wait! Zalanthan women are physically aggressive.

I don't agree with this.  They could be physical equals in the sense of stats, but for different biological reasons.   In other words, I don't think it would be correct to assume both men and women in zalanthas would have the same hormones at the same levels.    The fact that they don't have the identical secondary sexual characteristics supports this.

What the hell does masculine and feminine mean in a world like this?

I think you can readily distinguish between men and women by appearance among other things.   Neither is more physically capable, on average, than the other - but that doesn't mean there are no differences between men and women on Zalanthas.   Just none that matter in terms of stats.

[Angela Christine]

If it were up to me, I'd give females slightly better endurance (ability to endure) and wisdom ("women's intution", abilities developed to get around stronger men) with men getting slightly better strength and agility.  The result?  Women would be better magickers and mindbenders, men would be better at the martial classes.  If you give women wisdom and agility, with men getting strength and endurance, then women make better magickers and thieves, while men still make better warriors.

In our world men are generally taller, heavier, stronger and hairier than women.  From the character creation process we see that men and women have exactly the same range of height and weight (although in PCs the females often choose to be smaller while the males choose to be larger, go figure).  The stat ranges are the same for both sexes.  The level of hairiness is not specified, but both bearded ladies and hairless men do appear as NPCs in game, although they are not the norm.

Now in our world we blame men's agression and strength on excess testosterone and a chromasome that is lametably dammaged or mutated so that it has only 3 "legs" unlike every other chromasome which has 4.   (There is only one "Y" shaped chromasome, but every other one could be described as vaguely "X" shaped.  Adam's missing rib?)  But obviously testosterone is not the _only_ factor in muscle development.  It may not be that Zalanthian woman have the same amount of testosterone as the men, instead it may be that the women for some reason produce more growth hormone, or metabolize protiens slightly differently.  Or perhaps Zalanthian men produce -less- testosterone than Earth men, so the sexes are equal because Zalanthan men are less muscular than our men (and probably also slightly less agressive, less horny and less hairy).  Perhaps lower testosterone and the resulting lower muscle mass would help endure the heat by lowering the metabolic rate or something, I dunno.

There is also the theory that the planet itself is different.  It is spinning roughly twice as fast as earth, and may have lower gravity or lower apparent gravity due to increased centrifical force from the faster spin.  This makes giant bugs and turtles much easier to swallow, it would be hard to explain their survival in full earth gravity.  They would need to be insectoid without being insects, they'd need lungs and super-light but super-strong chitin.  (Perhaps alluminum?)  This also explains an elf who is over 7 feet tall weigh just 154 pounds and yet be strong and healthy enough to run 60 miles accross loose sand without needing a break, with lower gravity he can have lighter and less dense bones, almost like bird bones.  Who knows what lighter gravity would do to human development?  I like this theory, because it means all us flabby earthlings would be totally strong supermen on Zalanthas, simply because we are adapted for comparitively heavy gravity.  We might even be able to outdistance desert elves, at least until the heat killed us.  :?

Then there is evolution.  There was years of warring fiefdoms, a dragon that destroyed most of the known world's inhabitents and scarred the world itself for ages, wandering rabble fighting off attacks from giant insects and tortoises for centuries before we regain civilization in it's present form.  Everyone was a nomad, because during the time of the dragon any large settelments were destroyed.  There was no safe place to leave the women and children while the men went out to hunt or look for water.  The weak died, including a disproportionate number of women.  The strong women were the ones who survived the longest and had the most children, passing on their innate buffness to their daughters.  Today most Zalanthian women look like longshoreman, except for the few dainty throwbacks that manage to survive in the cities.  

As for being masculine or feminine, how feminine is a female dwarf?  How masculine is a male half-elf?  

AC

PS.  These are just wild, crazy theories, and should not be regarded as truth by anyone.  Any similarity to the Truth is purely co-incidental.  Carry on.

[Shekinah]

It is unfortunate that most people, when deciding how to view a class of people in Zalanthas, will look to the social norms of modern patriarchal cultures.

The cultures of the city states of Zalanthas are NOT patriarchal.  Sure, the sorcerer kings are men (as far as we know), but so what?  Read the documentation, people!  Women are NOT second class citizens in either Allanak or Tuluk, nor are they looked upon as less than men in most other Zalanthan cultures!

This situation alone will result in some VERY different cultural norms from what you or I are used to dealing with or reading about in our modern world.

3800 years ago, in a part of the world that is now occupied by various patriarchal tribal cultures, one of the western world's oldest civilizations flourished.  The city-states of Sumeria were united by ethnicity and to a lesser extent by religion.  Each city had its patron deity, but a common pantheon of deities existed.

Men did not 'rule' in Sumeria before the patriarchal and warlike pastorialists invaded.  In most of the city-states of Sumeria, the city temple was the seat of political power, with varying degrees of political influence among the merchant class.  Most of the city temples were run by women priestesses, and the socio-sexual taboos so prevalent today simply did not exist.

For instance, the human body was not considered a dirty, damnable and diseased instrument of sin that it is so often looked upon as today.  In fact, the very concept of sin as is understood today simply did not exist.

Sin in Sumeria consisted of denying the gods their due, excessive pride (huberis), actions that endangered the community, and misuse of the Sacred Mi, or holy laws made available to people by the ancestral deity Inanna when, as their legends spoke, she stole the Sacred Mi from her brother Enki.  The Sacred Mi were not like the patriarchal Levitican 'Ten Commandments'.  They were instructions for living and for doing....ANYTHING.  Art, war, poetry, music, crafts, agriculture, worship, trade, interpersonal relations, and, of course, sex.  Any activity that humans engaged in, was governed by one of the Sacred Mi.  There was a right way to do things....and a wrong way to do things.  To the Sumerians, not following the instructions of the Sacred Mi was unthinkable.

Sex and sexuality in Sumeria were not surrounded by the taboos that have existed over the past few milennia.  Sex was considered a sacred rite....a form of worship...and the decision as to whether a man or woman engaged in sex was his or her own, unless that man or woman was in a position of political power (obviously because there might be dynastic problems associated with any resulting offspring).

The temple of Inanna in Uruk engaged in activities which if a church of today were to attempt, would result in the church being closed and members arrested....if not lynched by the community.

Females were sent by their families to the temple to learn the wisdom of the goddess Inanna.  Some of these young girls were taken into the priesthood to serve the temple.  Each year, the temple held a sacred celebration in which the women of the temple, including the younger acolytes, would gather in the temple plaza.  Men would come to the temple and the priestesses would each choose a man and take him within the temple and fuck him.
This sacred rite went on all day and all night until all the men who came to the temple were thus taken.

Offspring resulting from this sacred celebration of the goddess of love and fertility were considered 'special'  If the offspring were female, they 'belonged' to the temple and were taken to be raised as priestesses.

Later civilizations looked upon this sort of celebration as sinful and disgusting.  They labelled it 'prostitution' and the acolytes of later generations of people who worshipped fertility goddesses and who also engaged in this activity were termed 'Temple Prostitutes'.

Many so-called historians have suggested that it was this sort of activity which brought about the plagues of sexually transmitted diseases of that day, such as syphilis.  There is bio-medical evidence, garnered through scientific research to show that the most likely spread of such diseases arose from people having sex with animals....something that was considered unspeakable by the Sumerians, but is often engaged in by patriarchal pastorial tribes whose sexual mores are inherently restrictive.

If you believe that restrictive sexual mores could never be the result of such disgusting behavior as bestiality, I suggest you visit your local porno video store.  There are literally thousands of videos displaying various acts of bestiality available in our very modern and yes, VERY repressed culture.

In Zalanthas, sexuality is considered a private thing, but it is NOT restricted by social mores.  Women take whom they want to their beds, just as men do.  So long as this activity doesn't result in political scandal, no one CARES who is fucking whom.  There is no reason that I can imagine, in either Tuluk or even in Allanak (which tends to be more prudish in dress than Tuluk) why a prostitute would be looked down upon simply for being a prostitute.  One may look down upon a street walker by reasoning of whom she is willing to take as a client (some human street trollips even take ELVES, for Tek's sake!!)  Some in Zalanthan society may look up to such a person (She never wants for 'sid and her children never go hungry).  In a world such as Zalanthas, it is those simple survival considerations that would be the most important ones in the minds of the people.

Who cares HOW a man or woman gets money, so long as it is legal and so long as they pay their taxes!

In Allanak, I've seen prostitutes treated as the lowest form of human life...and I'm not talking about human woman who would fuck elves for money...I'm talking about high-paid and very professionallly elegant courtesans.  It makes no sense to me that this would occur in Zalanthas.  In my opinion, such roleplay is based solely upon RL considerations and mores and, is thus, VERY poor roleplay.

In a city-state where prostitution is legal, but possession or sale of spice isn't, why would a prostitute be treated like dirt, and a spice dealer be treated like Tek's gift to humankind?  Believe me, I've seen both in roleplay in Allanak.  I'm not talking about treatment by legal authorities, I'm talking about treatment by the common man or woman, most of whom should so honor their Dragon God-King that they would flay a suspected spice dealer alive  (or any other such criminal bent upon poisoning the hearts and minds of the good people of Allanak).

Yes, in the absence of guidelines, I will fall back on what I know about RL humanity when seeking how to play my character in a particular situation.
However, there is PLENTY of documentation available on the ways and means of most of the cultures of Zalanthas.  First and foremost, our roleplay should adhere to these guidelines, except in the most extreme of exceptions....and yes, I believe there are always exceptions....rare thought they may be.

How about we give the prostitutes of Zalanthas a little more credit where credit is due.  In the absence of restrictive religious morals, selling your body sexually is NO different than selling it for ANY other form of service.

Just get over it, hmmn?

[Rindan]

Men and woman are different, even in Zalanthas.  It would seem silly hack out a section of human emotion to just to be completely egalitarian.  Just because they are different doesn't mean that it has to translate into woman being subservient, especially if they are equals in strength.  With this physical equality has come overall equality.  A woman can do whatever a man can do and then some.  That doesn't mean that they might not approach certain things differently, but both approaches would be accepted.  If you try and bend a woman's arm into doing something "like a man", she can bend your arm back to make you do it "like a woman".    Hence, you have a society where both perspectives, while different, are accepted as both being perfectly valid.  

Guys still might be instinctively a more aggressive even if they don't have a physical upper hand, and woman still might be instinctively more skillful at being peace makers and understanding social issues.  This would help explain why there still seems to be a disparity between the genders in certain professions.  A woman might make a fine guard, but she might simply, on average, be less interested then the average man might be.  That said, she still completely has the capacity to do it and a female guard would be utterly normal.  The average women might be slightly less inclined towards it, but it might only be skewed a little, and one could expect the women who do end up in aggressive professions to be just as aggressive as everyone else.  Just because a woman might be on average less inclined to be aggressive doesn't mean that there are not a horde of woman aggressive enough and willing to slip on some armor and kill with the best of them.

So, gender stereotypes might still exist to a small extent, and there would be a mark able difference between men and woman on average, but such stereotyping wouldn't be useful or used.  Women hold as much power as men, occupy leadership positions like they do, and for the most part can kick your ass if you don't like it.  People would be judged on a case by case basis because a chauvinist or man hater would promptly get their ass kicked by the members of the opposite sex if they didn't.  Neither sex wants to be relegated to a secondary position in society, and neither is ever going to get an upper hand, so the two simply have learned to live each other without bias.

Finally, as to the foolishness that AC was spouting at the Y chromosome being 'damaged', well, it is nothing more then that, foolishness.  Recent studies have shown that the Y is actually the most advanced and evolved chromosome.  Unlike the X chromosome which is annoyingly dependent upon always having a partner in order to fix its defects (and with all those free radicals floating around it certainly manages to get its share of defects), the Y chromosome is self sufficient and able to repair and take care of itself through self repair.  In other words, unlike the X which is always nagging for someone else to fix its problems, the Y is independent, self sufficient, and doesn't need to drag any other chromosomes into the drudgery of its problems constantly.  Some might say that the Y chromosome is more 'stable', less 'dependent', and doesn't constantly 'need attention' like some other chromosomes.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=y+chromosome+self+repair

[ShaLeah]

How about we give the prostitutes of Zalanthas a little more credit where credit is due.  In the absence of restrictive religious morals, selling your body sexually is NO different than selling it for ANY other form of service.

Just get over it, hmmn?

Tek bless you.  :wink:

I think people would stop being so unwelcoming to this kind of thing if it was addressed somewhere in the documents.

ShaLeah
-who would love to see that.

[Anonymous]

the PC I have now doesn't understand the idea of prostitution. why would anyone pay for sex when they can get it free? in a recent RPT the reward in a contest was a kiss from a buff handsome male or female. meh. she just entered the contest for the beer.

to each his own, I guess. But I don't see how a prostitute can make any money when people have no hangups about sex. In real life people go to prostitutes when they can't get someone else. or when their wife/husband isn't satisfying them in bed. or if they have fantasies they want to act out and a whore will do whatever for the right money.

In armageddon, you don't need to pay someone for any of that. it's available free. so why and how would anyone make a living being a prostitute in armageddon?

[Once upon a whore]

In armageddon, you don't need to pay someone for any of that. it's available free. so why and how would anyone make a living being a prostitute in armageddon?

I've played a whore character and she made a [SHIT LOAD] of money, most of her clients didn't even want sex!
She got paid to be held.
She got paid for a kiss.
She got paid for information.
She got paid for dances.
She got paid to humiliate and beat the fuck out of someone.
She got paid for massages.
She got paid for language lessons.
She got paid for seduction lessons.
She got paid to escort someone somewhere and be their eye candy.
And of course, she got paid for sexual things.
She did all of this without a pimp or sponsor.

She was a very high priced whore and while some scorned her asking price, they did so only before she serviced them. They were quite willing to pay after that.  :lol:
Why did she become a whore? Because she wanted to, definately not because she had to.

Some people will do whatever it takes to survive, the necessity of such a thing is purely dependant on character and background. People may hire a whore just to see if they're any good. Maybe they just hit the gambling tables and made a shit load of 'sid and feel the need to blow it, maybe they love their wife or husband but they suck in bed, maybe just because they can?

[X-D]

Simple convenience I'd say, specialy for the merchants, hunters, raiders mercs and other iso and semi-iso and anybody else that travels, or even people that don't, hunter coming in once a month probly does not want to mess around and has a bunch of sid burning a hole in his beltpouch.

Come to think of it, it would make sense since survival is so hard for most people for even non-prostitutes to entertain the idea if the price was right, I know that if confronted with somebody offering like 500 sid for a few hours of "work" that does not involve some big ugly thing trying to kill them, most of my pc's would jump on it...pun intended.

[Cuusardo]

to each his own, I guess. But I don't see how a prostitute can make any money when people have no hangups about sex. In real life people go to prostitutes when they can't get someone else. or when their wife/husband isn't satisfying them in bed. or if they have fantasies they want to act out and a whore will do whatever for the right money.

In armageddon, you don't need to pay someone for any of that. it's available free. so why and how would anyone make a living being a prostitute in armageddon?

A prostitute is definitely going to have sex with a stranger, provided that stranger can pay for the service.  That same person would probably get smacked if he or she went up to just some random person and said "Hey, let's do it."  That is why.

[Carnage]

A prostitute is definitely going to have sex with a stranger, provided that stranger can pay for the service. That same person would probably get smacked if he or she went up to just some random person and said "Hey, let's do it." That is why.

Drop your western views, please.

[Cuusardo]

It's not a western thing.  It's an issue of trust.

[Carnage]

It's not a western thing. It's an issue of trust.

No, it's pretty much a western view as it's western views that make you think of sex as requiring trust and such.

[X-D]

Carnage wrote:

No, it's pretty much a western view as it's western views that make you think of sex as requiring trust and such.

Really? Other then sleeping, specialy on zalanthas where people sleep armored and with weapons, guards inside and outside the room, can you think of any other time when you are as vulnerable as when you are naked (or nearly) and alone fucking someone?

At that point trust is something you have to think about, and I'm gonna trust a prostitute more then just about anybody else that wants to have sex, least I know what her/his goal is, money, the more the better, and a prostitute that robs or kills her custemers does not get much repeat business.


And to all those people who think that monogamy and jealousy are human nature, you might want to do some research on that, cause they are not in the least. Humans do not have instincts and there are many cultures around the world that don't even have words/terms/definitions for such concepts.

Course, In those same cultures, the idea of a prostitute/whore is completly foreign and even if you could get them to understand it they would only get a good laugh out of it.

[Anonymous]

It's not a western thing. It's an issue of trust.

Where does trust play into the matter?  Since any given woman has a 50/50 chance of kicking any given man's ass on Zalanthas, it doesn't seem the same risks to life an limb exist there.

[Anonymous]

In armageddon, you don't need to pay someone for any of that. it's available free. so why and how would anyone make a living being a prostitute in armageddon?

Why would you pay for mekillot steak when you could have some travel cakes?  I think quality might play into it.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

In real life people go to prostitutes when they can't get someone else.

Yeah, so? I'm -sure- their are people on Zalanthas that can't get anyone else... 'the uni-browed, split-lipped woman?' 'the cock-eyed, potbellied half giant?' Even Zalanthas has it's ugly.  :wink:

or if they have fantasies they want to act out and a whore will do whatever for the right money.

I'm sure even Zalanthans have fantasies that 'normal' people would never indulge them with.

The nervous, perverted templar says, rubbing his hands together, in sirihish:
"And... And then, I want you to put on this white dress, and my Vivaduan here will read something out of that black book..."

The nervous, perverted templar says, licking his lips as he eyes you, in sirihish:
"And then... Yes... And then, I'll whisk you off to some remote location in the Northlands, and we'll screw and go site seeing for a solid week... Of course, that'll be after we mingle with my extended family and shove cake into each other's faces..."

The nervous, perverted templar cackles, salivating as he rubs his hands together, eyes still on you.

The high-class ho raises her eyebrows.

The nervous, perverted templar says, in sirihish:
"Now, how much will that cost me?"

You think:
"This guy's insane..."

The high-class ho says, in sirhish:
"Well, honey... I think a few hundred thousand 'sid should cover it."

[Carnage]

Humans do not have instincts

Can I see a source?

[Lazloth]

And to all those people who think that monogamy and jealousy are human nature, you might want to do some research on that, cause they are not in the least. Humans do not have instincts and there are many cultures around the world that don't even have words/terms/definitions for such concepts.

Evolutionary psychologists and social anthropologists have argued the validity of [genetic] jealousy for some time.  I'm almost with Carnage here, as there are biological "instincts" that would be hard to pull from sexual union;  I'm sure this nothing new: women know that they are the mothers of their offsprings, men have no such parental certainties. As genetically encoded to reproduce, it follows, males should be more concerned about their mates' fidelity. (Less importantly, females may be concerned that their mate may bond with another and share resources.)  Whether men and women actually differ in emotional and sexual jealousy is a debate in (see: Buss, 1996; Kenrick, Trost, & Sheets, 1996; Trivers, 1972; Daly & Wilson, 1998) literature.  Additionally, evolutionary theories (with the reproductive core in argument) predict sex differences in the desire for sex:  males are more interested in sleeping with any woman that gives them the opportunity because they benefit from the minimal investment strategy. Women, on the other hand, would be much more selective in the choice of sexual partners because they only benefit from sex with high-quality males.  Western thought, yes, but biologically supported.

The concept of genetic monogamy, or biparental care, is similarly widespread across hundreds of specie of all class.

[X-D]

So, in the search for a source other then my college textbooks, I find that what exactly constitutes an instinct and a reflex has not been decided, So, while I research that, here is something else that I found, interesting reading. The funny thing about it is I had come to most of the same conclusions many years ago through my own observations.

http://www.suntimes.co.za/2002/09/22/lifestyle/life19.asp

Though, I was taught that an instinct is a inborn set of intructions on how and when to do something, A reflex is a simple physical reaction to a stimuli, the ability of a newborn to suckle used to be called the suckling instinct, if you touch a newborn on the cheek they will turn in that direction and attempt to suckle, later it was decided that this was really a simple physical reflex.

Anyway, still searching:)
lots of interesting things.

[Turned Off]

Why wouldn't the average Zalanthan not react badly to some random stranger walking up and propositioning them for sex?

"Who the Drov are you, and why should I even consider kanking you?!"

[ShaLeah]

Why wouldn't the average Zalanthan not react badly to some random stranger walking up and propositioning them for sex?

"Who the Drov are you, and why should I even consider kanking you?!"

Because in a world where so little is nice and warm and fuzzy, a couple hours or days of fucking might seem a nice change of pace?

[God]

Humans are mammals. Of course they have instincts. Lazloth is the only person on here who I can tell actually understands anthropology.

Even if men and women have no difference in strength, the simple fact that women bear children, an ardous, time-consuming task, will make a significant difference in the two. I think I already wrote that with the death rate of Zalanthas, women need to bear A LOT of children for Zalanthas to have a self-sustaining population. After they bear the children, they have to raise them. That's what the average woman should be doing. Bearing and raising children, and depending upon a man to support her and her children, at least while she's pregnant. Women(and men, to a lesser extent) naturally gravitate to the best mate they can find, then try to keep him for the good of her child. The Alpha male, in ancient times, sometimes had scores of women. Enough of that tangent...

Jealousy probably isn't an instinct - it's a reflex, and it's also an emotion. I'm a protective and jealous man, I'll admit, and that certainly isn't culturally imposed. I couldn't stop it if I wanted to.

[Gorobei]

Humans do not have instincts

What do you think emotions are?

[ShaLeah]

Jealousy probably isn't an instinct - it's a reflex, and it's also an emotion. I'm a protective and jealous man, I'll admit, and that certainly isn't culturally imposed. I couldn't stop it if I wanted to.

I have often been described as hot blooded, passionate, fiery tempered, bitchy, temperamental and pretty much every other name in the book that can be used to describe anything of the sort.

When I was younger, especially in my teens and early twenties, I was a very jealous character. God help my mate if I caught his ass looking at someone else.  :evil:

Then a funny thing happened when I was about twenty six, twenty seven... I gained self-confidence.

I find that for me, feelings of jealousy were stemmed by in some way feeling insecure about the relationship which boiled down to:

I'm not good enough

I'm not sure if jealousy ever goes away, I still get a pang or two but not when my man looks at another woman with interest, I get them now when I can tell that another woman has -genuine- interest in my man, not that she just wants to kank him, but that she finds him as interesting/funny/charming/sexy/intelligent/etc as I do.
Those occassions are very rare and when they -do- happen I tell myself this:
If he didn't want to be with me, he wouldn't be here.
AND
If he wants to be with her, fuck him, I'll find another.

I don't agree, jealousy can be changed. At the very least controlled.


ShaLeah
-who had a boyfriend once who used to stand on the opposite side of the street to see how many men looked at her and then bitched at her like it was somehow her fault.
Now -that- is jealous. :roll:

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

God wrote:

That's what the average woman should be doing. Bearing and raising children, and depending upon a man to support her and her children, at least while she's pregnant.

How would you like to sit around for RL years, your character unable to do their job because they keep getting pregnant? Honestly, this is a game, and it calls for some suspension of disbelief. What you say makes sense, I concede to that... For Zalanthas to have a stable population, people would need to fuck constantly and take care of all their offspring. However, I don't want to subject our already slim female player base to an endless cycle of mud-sex, gestation, birth, recovery and repeat. This is a -game-. With the purpose of having -fun-. No matter how bad you want Zalanthan women to be good and nurse all the little kiddies running around, it's just not going to happen. Why would you want to EMOTE breast-feeding your seventeeth kid when there are mekillots to slay, nobles to assassinate, and businesses to take over?

[Angela Christine]

There are a range of alternatives between life-long monogomy and unbridled promiscuity with no long-term relationships at all.  We don't have a lot of personal experience with those kinds of relationships, so you have to use your imagination, read a lot of science fiction/fantasy, or look at some of the "alternative lifestyles" people are currently experimenting with.

A good start is to run a search on "polyamory" and "polyfidelity".  Here's a short excerpt from a poly site http://www.sexuality.org/l/polyamor/polart2.html that could work well on Zalanthas:

Polyfidelity offers a number of obvious advantages over more traditional family and intimacy styles. It caters to the desires of those who like sexual variety, yet allows this to occur in the context of lasting,deep, meaningful relationships. This blend of spice and stability is very refreshing to people who, in other situations, have had to forfeit a stable home life in order to experience variety, or vice versa. The problem of having unrealistic expectations of what one partner can provide that often occurs in two-adult families is solved; no one individual needs to be all things to anyone else. For single parents,or parents in general, a polyfidelitous household is a marvellous environment in which to raise children.  The burden of responsibility and care that would otherwise fall on one or two individuals is spread out throughout the group, which allows the adults to be involved in many activities besides childcare, and
gives the children a healthy assortment of good role models; adults with whom to build caring, trusting relationships.

'The intimacy of women or men sharing the same sexual partners and living space is unique to
polyfidelity, and delightful'

Then there are the benefits of same sex camaraderie in the privacy of one's own home. The intimacy
of women or men sharing the same sexual partners and living space is unique to polyfidelity, and
delightful. The whole problem of jealousy is much more easily solved in this context than in others,
because the pleasure and closeness one observes in the relationship of any two of her/his partners in no
way threatens her/his own relationship with each of them. In fact, the opposite is true: the better the relationships are between all family members, the more secure the group is as a whole, and the stronger each individual's relations with any of her/his partners. In an age where social fragmentation and
loneliness have reached epidemic proportions, polyfidelity offers its adherents a fantastic, built-in social and psychological support system, in an atmosphere conducive to individual growth and change. The support system is economic too, as the cost of living for many adults sharing space and other resources cooperatively is much lower than the cost of living for people in one or two-adult households.

It all probably sounds more akward then it is.  

Another option is fixed-term relationships, where the term is something other than "until death do us part."

For example, you might agree on a 5 year "marriage".  Durring that time you would live together, share expenses and responsibilities, and attempt to have 2 children.  At the end of the term both children should be at least toddlers, you each take one child and go on your merry way.  You have the option to renew if you want to, but there is no obligation to attempt to stay bound together forever.  You would need to have some contingency clauses.  You might specify that if pregnancy does not occur within the first year the marriage is aborted, because obviously you are not reproductively compatable and the purpose was reproduction.  You would also need to agree what happens if at the end of the 5 year term there is only 1 living child, or if there are 3 or more.  If one of the parties dies after the conclusion of the contract, does the surviving partner have any rights/responsiblilites for the child that partner was raising, or does the child "belong" to that partner's family.

It sounds like a lot to figure out, and terribly unromantic, but that level of complexity is common in marriage agreements.  In cultures using doweries and/or bride price you have to agree who gets what when, and what happens if the marriage is not completed, consumated or fruitful.  Western culture tries really hard to make marriage all about love, lust and romance, but most cultures are more pragmatic.  Marriage is something that will affect your well-being and the well-being of your offspring for the rest of your lives.  When something is that important you can't make your decision based solely on emotions and hormones, because everybody -knows- that emotions and hormones are unreliable.  How selfish or crazy would you have to be to gamble your children's future on something so unreliable?  :twisted:

Angela Christine

[Malifaxis]

Because in a world where so little is nice and warm and fuzzy, a couple hours or days of fucking might seem a nice change of pace?

Lets not forget the 'getting paid for it' part.  That could also significantly increase the enjoyment in an impovrished locale.

Humans do not have instincts.

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT!  Wrong answer.  Sorry.

My proof?  Instinct to reproduce.  You take two people of opposite sex, from birth, put them in a sealed environment until they are hormonal.  Put them in the same room, all nekkid, and one will mount the other.  No one has to show you where Mr. Willy takes a swim, you just know.

At least, that's how I see it.

On the concept of fantasies being fulfilled by professional *ahem* 'providers'... there are many things that women will do on Earth for money in a 'carreer' such as the one we are speaking of.  On Earth, money is much more readily available than on Zalanthas, which therefor increases the willingness to do absolutely cracked out things to people.

Brow furrowed in thought as phantasmal obsidian coins whirl about her head in a frenzied manner, the high class ho says, in sirihish;
  "Let me get this straight, you want me to dress up like a mekillot and haul your chariot across town.  Then you want me to let you 'ride' me in to the Bard's Barrel while I sing 'my kank peed on a dwarf' at the top of my lungs?  Well, Lord Templar, that'll cost you a bit extra."

You think:  This is gonna suck, but I'm gonna be SOOOOOOO rich!

[X-D]

My proof? Instinct to reproduce. You take two people of opposite sex, from birth, put them in a sealed environment until they are hormonal. Put them in the same room, all nekkid, and one will mount the other. No one has to show you where Mr. Willy takes a swim, you just know.

Better find where somebody has done that experiment, cause at this moment, everything I can find says your wrong there, humans are probly the only animal in the world that has to be taught the mechanics of copulation.

99% of what most people think are instinct are learned responses.
The rest are at best reflex.

You hear talk now and again of pheromone research in humans and often the wording will be used "the instinctual response to" But in every case this is not an instinct, it is nothing more then a physio-chemical reaction to another chemical, barely even a reflex.

Instinct to self preservation, Heh, to many suicides for that to be true, again, at best you get a reflex action in times of danger, the most common being to freeze, but not everyone, which means, again, reflex at best because fear is a an emotion the body reacts to but there is no instruction beyond that other then what you learn.

Human beings cannot even walk instinctualy, they have to learn/be taught, unlike any other walking animal.

Of course, my biggest arguement is mostly how people define instinct, some are simply more liberal then others :wink:

instinct

2. (Zo["o]l.) Specif., the natural, unreasoning, impulse by which an animal is guided to the performance of any action, without of improvement in the method.

The resemblance between what originally was a habit, and an instinct becomes so close as not to be distinguished. --Darwin.

reflex

Something, such as light or heat, that is reflected.
An image produced by reflection.
A copy or reproduction.
Physiology. An involuntary response to a stimulus.
Psychology. An unlearned or instinctive response to a stimulus.
Linguistics. A form or feature that reflects or represents an earlier, often reconstructed, form or feature having undergone phonetic or other change.

Now, those two are just from the unabridged, notice the reflex definition uses the word instinctive, but it is using that word in the form that is the synonym for automatic.
But if you move along to the medical dictionary, which I do not think is written for the general layperson.

reflex

\Re"flex\ (r?"fl?ks), a. [L. reflexus, p. p. of reflectere: cf. F. r['e]flexe. See Reflect.] 1. Directed back; attended by reflection; retroactive; introspective.

The reflex act of the soul, or the turning of the intellectual eye inward upon its own actions. --Sir M. Hale.

2. Produced in reaction, in resistance, or in return.

3. (Physiol.) Of, pertaining to, or produced by, stimulus or excitation without the necessary intervention of consciousness.

Reflex action (Physiol.), any action performed involuntarily in consequence of an impulse or impression transmitted along afferent nerves to a nerve center, from which it is reflected to an efferent nerve, and so calls into action certain muscles, organs, or cells.

reflex

adj : (physiology) without volition or conscious control; "the automatic shrinking of the pupils of the eye in strong light"; "a reflex knee jerk"; "sneezing is reflexive" [syn: automatic, reflex(a), reflexive] n : an automatic reaction [syn: physiological reaction]

Notice the synonyms.

Anyway, guess I'm just more or a purest in my definitions:)

Anyway, come up with something a bit more complex or something that is internaly generated rather then as a simple knee-jerk or chemical reaction to an outside stimuli and maybe I'll concede humans might have instincts

[Malifaxis]

Better find where somebody has done that experiment, cause at this moment, everything I can find says your wrong there, humans are probly the only animal in the world that has to be taught the mechanics of copulation.

*boggle*  Seriously?  I never had to learn the mechanics... which... I guess means I'm an aberration.  Either that or a throw back.

I think the first line of your response is all the justification I need to become a Mad Scientist.

Malifaxis
-Who is rubbing his hands together at the prospect of winning this arguement in 13-15 years.

[DrunkenSalarr]

I think the first line of your response is all the justification I need to become a Mad Scientist.

Malifaxis
-Who is rubbing his hands together at the prospect of winning this arguement in 13-15 years.

There are pleanty of similar experiments I've always wanted to do on humans, and I only have one thing to say: stupid laws and medical ethics.

Drunken Salarr, who wonders if this happens to all the long posts that he typically stops reading.

[X-D]

Grin

There are pleanty of similar experiments I've always wanted to do on humans, and I only have one thing to say: stupid laws and medical ethics.

yup, sad ain't it.

boggle* Seriously? I never had to learn the mechanics... which... I guess means I'm an aberration. Either that or a throw back.

Yes, you did learn it, but in basicly the same manner you learned a lot of other things.

Take for instance, many people think that it is instinctual to not be a cannibal simply because nobody ever 'taught' them to not be one, Sure, nobody ever said "Now Malifaxis, don't eat your little playmates."
No, over the years you noticed things, weather you thought of them or not, like, nobody else you knew was eating people, comments from people around you like when somebody burns themself on a really hot surface "Man, I hate the smell of burnt human flesh, don't you?"
Many things some as simple as the look on somebodies face if you say the word cannibal.

And that is something that is not mentioned often, sex on the other hand you have been bombarded with your whole life, if by the time you are old enough to actually start thinking about doing it yourself you don't have at least some idea on what is going on with the basic machanics then you may have been raised in a box.

And to take anothers example, if a male and a female were raised with 0 human contact then at say age 15 were stuck in a room together naked, they would both be petrified and even after that wears off sex would probly never happen, specialy since one would not know what the other was and I doubt very much if either would even think they are the same species.

My mom was raised on a farm, she learned how animals reproduced very early, but being that she was raised in the 50's on a farm by strict jesuits with no tv (not that it would have mattered at the time) My mother on her wedding night night when my father explained what was next stated to him "NO! Thats how baby cows and pigs are made, not people!"

Needless to say, my conception was not till the next night.

[Malifaxis]

Sure, nobody ever said "Now Malifaxis, don't eat your little playmates."

Uhh... I hate to say it, but... um... they did say that.  I still have quite the intensive oral fetish, but at least I don't bite quite that hard anymore.

Malifaxis
-Who is now more adamant than ever about raising people in boxes, and is doing research on which countries have these stupid ethical medical laws.

[2 Lazy 2 Login ShaL]

Uhh... I hate to say it, but... um... they did say that.  I still have quite the intensive oral fetish, but at least I don't bite quite that hard anymore.

Heh.

ShaLeah
-who can just imagine some of the thoughts this statement has caused.

[Gorobei]

X-D:
You walk into a room, and that guy that you hate is eating your oh-so-tasty lunch.  You get the sudden urge to do something painful to him.

How do you explain that?

[X-D]

Explain what? You already said you hated him him before you caught him eating your lunch and likly the society you live in has laws/morals and such dealing with theft and being wronged in some way, these normaly also carry a punishment of some sort for the offender, So, you have already learned that somebody doing something bad to somebody else when it is unwarrented deserves to be punished or have something bad happen to them, to me, it is logical to want to be the one dishing it out.

Would your thoughts/urges/feeling have been the same if it had been your mom?


Hey, I just remembered what the thread topic was :wink:  personaly, I think we need more NPC prostitutes in game and in nicer areas, most of them that I see are in the poor areas, you would think there would be at least a few in each of the taverns, specialy the ones that have strip shows and such, always wondered why Kurac or even the guild does not handle that in each of the cities (on the guild, maybe they do..shrug) But makes real sense for Kurac, spice gambling, booze and whores, what a perfect combo.

[spawnloser]

To support Malifaxis, people do have instincts, as any psychology student should be able to tell you...psychological needs, we will call them.  These are to eat, to sleep, to have shelter and to breed.  These are instincts...to do them well, one needs to learn how, but the desire to have/do them is not a learned behaviour.

As far as jealousy goes, it is a feeling of insecurity, as has been mentioned.  When one has a feeling that they are not as good (in whatever way) as some other person, they become scared that they will lose the security that they have, in the form of the relationship that they have.  This can come from the other member of the relationship taking a gander at someone else or the someone else taking a gander.

Back to trust, I asked Cuusardo, and she said that trust issue she was mentioning is that a prostitute is a professional and one can trust a professional to do a good job.  She wasn't talking about the western concept of needing an element of trust in someone to sleep with them...however, I will mention that you do need some amount of trust to sleep with someone by putting one's self in such an unprotected situation.  If there is no trust, things start to break down...Lord Gaddagetsum will hire a prostitute to do him back at his place, where she hasn't hidden anything...the prostitute will make sure that someone knows where she's gone and make sure that the Lord knows she did this so that he would, wishing to avoid any scandal, not harm her...etc.

Hell, continuing on about trust...do you really think anyone in Zalanthas SHOULD trust anyone???  I played a trusting character...wanna know what happened to her?  She was killed by her best friend.  One of the better roleplaying experiences I've been through on this mud...but that's what trust gets you, is stabbed...repeatedly.

Heheh...now I'm starting to get off track.  You should have stopped reading earlier than now.

SpawN, who is also known as 'He-that-has-taken-enough-psych-courses-to-be-over-half-way-towards-a-major'

[Barzalene]

I don't see how they differ significantly from other merchants.

[X-D]

Spawnloser wrote:

people do have instincts, as any psychology student should be able to tell you...psychological needs, we will call them. These are to eat, to sleep, to have shelter and to breed. These are instincts

Come now spawn old chap, two of the things you named are not instinct or reflex, they are physical needs,  not doing either one of them for too long will cause your body to stop functioning, the need to have fuel and replacement building materials is a set of signals sent to the brain telling it the tank is low  your mind interprets this as a need to eat, but except for suckling, you were taught to eat a long time ago, swallowing is a reflex.

Sleep is also something that without it, eventually you will die, one of the main reasons that you sleep is to replenish chemicals used to transmit nerve impulses and the chemicals in the photoreceptor cells in your eyes along with some repairs to cells and growth and replacement.

Shelter? come now.

Urge to breed, Hard to say that is an inborn instinct when you consider how many people simply do not have it, I know right now over 30 people who are over 40 and have never had children nor have they wanted to have children, I myself never felt any desire to breed and impregnated my daughters mom only because she wanted a child, when my daughter was 1 year old I took the steps to make sure I'd have no more, I was 24 at the time, My mother never had a desire to procreate, it was just expected of her.


And I bet even your professer of psych would admit that psychology is far more an art then a science.

[God]

Humans instinctively learn.

[Carnage]

If this is going to derail into a debate over instincts/reflexes, mind doing it in the OOC forum?

[Lazloth]

You prompted this, buddy.

[spawnloser]

Sorry, Carnage, but this derailed a LONG time ago...

To as quickly possible answer what X-D asked, however, the physical needs that were mentioned may be physical needs, but the psyche still seeks out any of these things prior to the body actually needing these things.  Instincts and reflexes are two seperate things, however...reflexes are the autonomic nervous system kicking in...instincts are hardwired psychological needs.  Like the need to procreate...since this is something that is interpreted on the instinctual level rather than the conscious level to have children, it should be labelled as the need to copulate (which in aulden times usually produced children).  Personally, my philosophical and socio-political beliefs prevent me from actually procreating either, but damn if I don't want to copulate.  The thing that needs to be understood here is that you have to understand some psychological precepts on an animal level rather than cognitive.

[Angela Christine]

I don't see how they differ significantly from other merchants.

Yeah, I see them as socially equivilent to mercenaries.  They both take money in return for letting others use their bodies for a set period of time.  Both have no loyalty, at least no loyalty beyond block of time your coin has bought.  Some are more expensive, skilled and reliable than others (a clean, skilled whore is like a merc from an established and skilled mercenary company, perhaps even an especially skilled and sought after specialist).  A few are cheap but almost useless, and little more than thugs that are trying to get you alone so they can rob or kill you ('rinth whores, drunkard untrained sellswords).

AC

[CindyLou]

To add to AC's post (since I agree with it):

However your character thinks of a mercenary, would be similar to what they'd think of a prostitute, for similar reasons.

So if your character thinks mercs are low-lifes, and equate the prostitute's place in social status with that of a merc, then you'd probably see the prostitute as a low-life as well.  If your status is lower than that of a merc and view them as people to be admired, then you'd probably admire the prostitute.

So again, I reiterate - it depends on two things: the type of prostitute you're talking about, and your own character's "place" in society compared with the prostitute's place in society.

[ShaLeah]

To bring this to a close, can everyone agree that prostitution is very much alive on Zalanthas and how you will be treated will be entirely dependant on what type of whore you are?

Just for shits and giggles, it would be nice if we could all compromise. Heh.


ShaLeah
-who had a rinthy whore who didn't live long enough to get a client.

[Bestatte]

I wouldn't place the entire "responsibility" on the prostitute character. That wouldn't be fair, and it isn't universal. A well paid independant prostitute would still likely be considered a low-life by a high-class clanned concubine, or even a selective and highly acclaimed courtesan. Conversely, a rinth-rat would view that same high paid independent prostitute as maybe something to aspire to..and admire their independence and relative wealth and status.

I still think it's both: the type of whore you're playing vs. the "status" of the character he or she is interacting with.

[Mekeda]

***DISCLAIMER***  This is my personal opinion and not the policy or views of the staff as a whole.


To me, a prostitute would be viewed with a lot more caution than a regular bedpartner. In a world where paranoia is not a mental condition but a safe state of mind, you would have to seriously consider how wise it is to strip naked and be alone with someone you KNOW beyond doubt sells out to the highest bidder. Would you tell this person anything? Not unless you wanted them to resell it the moment your leggings are on and the door is hitting your rear on the way out. Would you trust them not to have arranged to have a small team of assassins lurking in their bedchamber while your enemy sits in a nearby tavern chuckling at your stupidity? I know my pc's wouldn't. Sex with someone you trust is one thing, putting your life on the line for a bit of tail is another. To me, partnerships, whether two people, three people or more would be more the norm for anyone with enough to risk that visiting a prostitute could be a dangerous proposition. Now, if your a Byn merc with fifty extra sids and the stench of the shitter on you, hell yeah! Find yourself a cheap whore and spend that sid like you have no tomorrow because you probably don't.

Mekeda