Byn Justice -- log

[Nyr]

For what it's worth, this is now covered in Tuluki Templar documentation.  Specifically:

Some possible misconceptions about your role

We wanted to be sure we covered everything.  Here are some things we feel might generate confusion, so we have sought to correct those notions.  These questions/concerns/opinions have been either sent in via request inquiring about the role, or posted on the GDB, or what-not.  The part in bold is the misconception; the part after it is the correction.

I have more weight than a large virtual organizations like Nenyuk/Kadius/Salarr/Kurac/even the T'zai Byn...or even a noble House in Tuluk.  It's true that you have a lot of power in Tuluk, but you do NOT want to go toe to toe against any of the larger groups without the templarate backing you up.  Pissing off the highest echelons of any of these groups can mean major trouble for you.  Templars have been known to face problems with their bank accounts for screwing with Nenyuk.  Prices can get gouged if you piss off the wrong people for the wrong reasons.  Target a noble House indiscriminately and you may find that someone high enough in a noble House might be able to find ways to have YOU targeted.  Even the Byn can make things difficult.  Keep in mind that these larger groups with their monopolies or virtual representation are out there!

[BadSkeelz]

Prepare to see trolling of northern templars by sponsored roles go up by 1000%

[Rahnevyn]

That language applies accurately to Allanaki templars as well.

It also goes both ways, of course - uppity agents and representatives of a noble/merchant house or the Byn who cause too many problems for their organization with the templarate are very likely to find their lifeline cut after a bit. The maneuvering around who might get retribution from who is an exciting part of politics in Armageddon! As we saw in this log it doesn't always go a templar's way.

[James de Monet]

I think the key to remember in any such confrontation is whose interests are really at stake.

In this case you (seemingly) have a templar pissing flames because their personal plans got messed up. The Templarate seems to have gotten its own. The sarge says he apologized and returned the money. Templarate is probably fine with that. Compare that with the Byn being asked to hand over their own for what seems like a dubious execution. If they go along with that, it creates long term problems for the organization, not for Copper personally.

So, the Lt is fighting on behalf of an organization against an individual Templar. That works. If this was just an argument between Copper personally and the templar, taking the tack that she is probably would not have ended as well.

Another thing to remember is that if a commoner bucks the system (refuses to show at least a base level of respect to a templar/noble) they represent a threat not just to that noble's pride, but to the feudal foundation of the entire city-state. That's more trouble than most people can handle.  Copper is firm, and speaks her piece, but she still at least addresses the templar by his title, and when she wants to say "no" she says "no". She doesn't tell him to "pound sand". Important note there for any would-be ballsy types.    Courageous confidence needs to look different than suicidal stupidity!

[Barzalene]

 Really enjoyed this log. But I walked away with this thought. I think there is much more room for a templar to act how they want towards a commoner organization - especially in noble/templar : commoner relations. For a commoner to just tell the templar whatever they want, argue, and blatantly disobey (especially when it has to do with some lowly Sergeant) strikes me as a bit odd. Lets say that in this situation the Templar killed them both. Is the Byn going to leave the north and cut their possible earnings by ~50% because a commoner was dumb enough to disobey a Templar? I suspect that a couple of commoner's (who brought it on themselves) are not worth the loss of profits. That particular templar's prices might go up but I can't see it being made a big deal.

[James de Monet]

I don't think the danger is them leaving the north. I think the danger to the templar is the Byn going over his head to the Precentor, or just paying someone to knife him in his privy.  They do have a lot of money.

I don't know that I would categorize the Byn as a terribly dangerous enemy, though. Potentially fatal, yes, but "dangerous"?  As far as enemies go?  Ehh...  The thing about the Byn is they have no credibility. No one is going to take the Byn's word for anything over any other organization.  They're just a bunch of dirty mercenaries, after all. And yes, they have a metric ton of fighters, but they are in no way capable of individually standing up to soldiers and terrible magicks of either city-state, so their number of fighters doesn't really mean that much to a templar.

If I were that templar, I wouldn't be weighing the possibility of Byn withdrawal or insurrection. I would be thinking about the cost of the contracts that I need to have done to handle business, the possibility of my boss being pissed at me, and the possibility of a knife in the back.  Fairly common concerns, really. Nothing earth-shattering there like he might be pondering if he pissed off a noble house, for example.

[BadSkeelz]

Plus, you know, all sorts of accidents can happen on contracts.

[The Lonely Hunter]

I don't think the danger is them leaving the north. I think the danger to the templar is the Byn going over his head to the Precentor

Over a commoner (or two) being killed because she disrespected a templar? I'm no expert on Tuluki politics, I haven't really played there since the rebellion, so please correct me if I am wrong but I don't believe a Precentor would give an audience to any T'zai Byn member over a Lieutenant and Sergeant being killed. It would likely have to be something pretty serious for a Precentor to care and then perhaps filtered by an aide or lower ranking templar first.

[Desertman]

It isn't a matter of if the T'zai Byn could singlehandedly overthrow the north.

They couldn't of course.

It is a matter of how much damage would it do to the north to alienate the T'zai Byn if they sent the message that they are willing to and will absolutely murder the T'zai Byn's officers on a whim for no real reason when they feel like it.

If the templarate was to send that message, and the T'zai Byn allowed them to send that message, the T'zai Byn would be forced to not do business with the north.

Who does that leave?

The North's true enemy, the south.

Guess who just got a steadfast ally of hundreds of battle hardened and highly trained soldiers?

This had nothing to do with the Sergeant in question, or the Lieutenant in question, or the Templar in question. The three individuals on the table were not even part of the math.

This had everything to do with this....

"If I allow this Templar to wholesale slaughter my officers for no real reason, I will be sending the message that it is acceptable for that to happen and the T'zai Byn will do nothing about it. That is a message that can't be sent. It won't be good for the T'zai Byn, it won't be good for the north, and in general it won't be good for business. The T'zai Byn will lose all of its negotiating power with any northern contracts if we tell them it is fine to kill us if you don't like our terms. I would rather make one Templar angry than start a trend that eventually forces us out of the north all together or forces us to accept dozens of bad deals because I didn't stand up for my officer on this deal to set the example."

The Lieutenant couldn't allow the message that murdering Byn officers when you don't like the fact they don't take a job under the terms you have presented to be sent. Better to make one Templar angry, and maybe get killed, than to answer to the T'zai Byn Commander later about why you just let a single Templar establish the precedent that he can murder any Byn officer he wants if he doesn't get his way on every single contract.

[Marauder Moe]

Let us also consider the possibility that none of the persons involved were thinking purely in terms of cold hard political math...

[James de Monet]

Over a commoner (or two) being killed because she disrespected a templar? I'm no expert on Tuluki politics, I haven't really played there since the rebellion, so please correct me if I am wrong but I don't believe a Precentor would give an audience to any T'zai Byn member over a Lieutenant and Sergeant being killed. It would likely have to be something pretty serious for a Precentor to care and then perhaps filtered by an aide or lower ranking templar first.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. "Danger" was the wrong word, "consideration" would have been better. The templar has to consider whether his actions are enough offense to the Byn to warrant the calculated risk for them of appealing to the Precentor.  And it would be a risk. Important people don't like their time wasted.  If he's killing an Lt, that means its a very senior Byn officer who has to get involved. Someone high enough up to at least consider taking that risk, so that's hurdle A cleared. Hurdle B is how the Precentor would handle it. He might laugh and say "deal with it". He might chop the Northern Byn Commander's head off for wasting his time. Or, perhaps he knows the Byn Commander from his time as a Faithful. Maybe he owes him a favor. Or maybe the Byn Commander just makes it worth his valuable time financially. "Hey, no fair" is not at the heart of any Zalanthan politics. It's always a question of personal benefit. This is no different for a Precentor than it is for a rinther or a Sorcerer King.

[Nyr]

Really enjoyed this log. But I walked away with this thought. I think there is much more room for a templar to act how they want towards a commoner organization - especially in noble/templar : commoner relations.

This is also part of the new documentation for noble houses.  An individual templar or noble can indeed act how they want towards a commoner organization, but that organization is bigger than just one PC, and depending on how the noble or templar acts, the organization may well react in a manner that the noble or templar doesn't desire.  There is not (and should not be) that much room for a single PC to tread all over a much larger virtual organization.

For a commoner to just tell the templar whatever they want, argue, and blatantly disobey (especially when it has to do with some lowly Sergeant) strikes me as a bit odd.

I dunno.  Mercenaries think in mercenary terms.  Quid pro quo.  I get nothing if you kill my guy except you not killing me.  If we are going to start down that path, let's just not.  For that matter, it strikes me as a bit odd to not consider the possibility of a bribe in lieu of someone's head.  Still, it's well within the rights of PC play to make that decision, though.  If that's the tack that is taken, the the gameworld may well be animated to represent opposition to that idea.

Lets say that in this situation the Templar killed them both.  Is the Byn going to leave the north and cut their possible earnings by ~50% because a commoner was dumb enough to disobey a Templar?

Possibly.  This is only a single log of one thing, there's definitely more backstory here, and maybe there's more to the fact that a Byn Lieutenant was animated.  It wouldn't be the first time a whole clan has saddled up and left an area for one reason or another.

That particular templar's prices might go up but I can't see it being made a big deal.

The whole thing is an example of something in which "I can't see it being made into a big deal," yet somehow it got made into one.  Those are fun!

Guess who just got a steadfast ally of thousands of battle hardened and highly trained soldiers?

someone that can't math real good?

[Barzalene]

Hmm. Interesting  points.

[Desertman]

someone that can't math real good?

Oops.

I meant hundreds.

[Reiloth]

I might even argue that interactions like these lead to marked lack of T'zai Byn presence on the Tuluki front during the last HRPT.