Spice: Realism vs Playability

[Harmless]

Spice has negative effects if used often. These negative effects are hard to avoid for the regular user. Addiction is a terrible consequence of using.

The playerbase is filled with either people who are too new to the game to be able to comfortably afford spice, or people who CAN afford spice but choose not to because they OOCly know about the negative effects of using it.

In order for spice to become a commodity that people want to trade again, to boost the black market activity in the major cities and stimulate plot intrigue, I highly suggest that the permanent negative effects of using spice be removedmodified, such that the aftereffects of spice use wear off in a manner more similar to alcohol (i.e., when logged off), and or that other modifications be made to (some/all) spice to make using (certain kinds of spice) less debilitating. I also suggest that addiction be made much less crippling.

Edited to reflect the discussion that followed this post.

[Barzalene]

Please just lower the price.  Kurac can make up the difference in volume.

[ShaLeah]

Against this. Spice is for those who can afford it. Like Salarri ankheg/horror armor, Kuraci wagons and Kadian custom redecorating.

[Beethoven]

For it. I want to see more smuggling. There are different kinds, targeting different markets, for a reason.

[Barzalene]

I want to see more junkies.

[Lizzie]

No struggle with "realism" here, or playability. If you want spice for absolutely positively free, no charge, go out and sift some. You need a sifter, but you can probably find that in any random apartment anywhere in the entire world, if you're renting. Or you could buy one - so sure you'd need an initial investment. But once you have your sifter, spice costs zero coins at all.

OR - you can eliminate the risk involved in sifting your own spice, and buy it by the grain from someone else who's doing the sifting. Not all that expensive either.

OR - you can RP wanting the "good stuff," properly strained, cleaned, and pressed by Kurac, and pay a premium for the premium quality from a shop, or a hefty amount from a PC merchant, but probably less than what you'd have to pay at a shop.

OR - you can work for Kurac and get your bonuses (in addition to your pay) in spice, which used to be a pretty common occurrence - and hopefully still is.

OR - you can commission someone to smuggle it for you.

OR - you can make friends with a Kurac employee and manipulate them into giving you the spice at their discount.

[Harmless]

Before my thread gets -too- derailed, I just want to remind people I am not personally suggesting to lower the prices for spice. I think the prices are where they should be, considering a.) the current level of inflation and b.) the cost of other commodities such as food and water, where spice is very comparable.

I want the permanent(ish) negative effects to begone, though, because I happen to know for a fact that's why people aren't using spice more.

If spice was made more appealing on a coded level then people would actually care about it. As it is? I am depressed by how little spice gets used, and how pretty much everyone is only willing to smoke a certain spice that doesn't have the obvious negatives that pretty much every other kind of spice has.

[Nyr]

I'm not sure I am following.

So...this game lets you play a spice addict to detrimental effects on your PC.  Therefore, because of those detrimental effects on people that have chosen to play spice addicts, you're saying that (some number of) other people look at them and go, nope, I'm not gonna be a spice addict (whether IC or OOC) and use spice in moderation. 

Let's say that's an IC thing, people saying that.  "Wow, Amos there is fucked up, he'll show you a game of Tek's Tower--if you get my drift--for even a hit of spice, he'll probably die from that shit one day."  Ok.  So what?  Amos is happy and the guy observing is engrossed in the world and says no to drugs.  Except, he still uses them.

Let's say that's an OOC thing.  "Yeah, I don't want my PC to be a spice addict, he or she just uses it recreationally, I'm not really interested in playing out the full extent of being a complete spice fiend."  Ok.  So what?  You're playing what you want to play, people are not required to play PCs addicted to spice, and PCs might well use spice sparingly anyway, just "less" than an addict.

You've even said the reason people aren't using it more is because of this.  Not "at all" but more.  So what?  If being a spice addict was glamorous and had no coded detriments IC and only benefits, then it makes everyone a happy addict to a harmless substance that has no ill effects on their PCs and only provides occasional benefits.  "Oh, they can RP being an addict, but that code better not force them to be one when they choose to use it so much that they'd be addicted to it!"    This isn't a MUSH; code is going to back up certain aspects of the game, and in this case, it backs up addiction to a substance.

[Molten Heart]

This same thing came up with alcohol and the code was adjusted to allow the effects of alcohol to continue to wear off while logged out.  If this kind of change were applied to spice, letting spice effects both good and bad wear off while offline, spice use would increase.

[Harmless]

I'm not sure I am following.

So...this game lets you play a spice addict to detrimental effects on your PC.  Therefore, because of those detrimental effects on people that have chosen to play spice addicts, you're saying that (some number of) other people look at them and go, nope, I'm not gonna be a spice addict (whether IC or OOC) and use spice in moderation.  

Let's say that's an IC thing, people saying that.  "Wow, Amos there is fucked up, he'll show you a game of Tek's Tower--if you get my drift--for even a hit of spice, he'll probably die from that shit one day."  Ok.  So what?  Amos is happy and the guy observing is engrossed in the world and says no to drugs.  Except, he still uses them.

Let's say that's an OOC thing.  "Yeah, I don't want my PC to be a spice addict, he or she just uses it recreationally, I'm not really interested in playing out the full extent of being a complete spice fiend."  Ok.  So what?  You're playing what you want to play, people are not required to play PCs addicted to spice, and PCs might well use spice sparingly anyway, just "less" than an addict.

You've even said the reason people aren't using it more is because of this.  Not "at all" but more.  So what?  If being a spice addict was glamorous and had no coded detriments IC and only benefits, then it makes everyone a happy addict to a harmless substance that has no ill effects on their PCs and only provides occasional benefits.  "Oh, they can RP being an addict, but that code better not force them to be one when they choose to use it so much that they'd be addicted to it!"    This isn't a MUSH; code is going to back up certain aspects of the game, and in this case, it backs up addiction to a substance.

Basically, I have played "spice users trying to use it moderately" and my stats get degraded anyway. I've never tried to play a "spice addict who has no regard for their own health" but I imagine then the effects are even worse.

People don't use spices that have the potential to degrade stats almost at all because those effects seem to happen unpredictably, and then lead to permanent loss of stats to their PCs that they never actually planned to play as "addicts."

Because the code is so unrelenting in regards to this, people rapidly learn not to have their PCs be spice users. Or they use it once or twice here and there, whatever they think they can get away with -- spice is now just a flavor item and never gets bought and sold in any reasonable quantity.

[Harmless]

Let me put it to you this way, Nyr.

On some of my PCs I have done this:

Fill spice pipe up with spice. Actually, the pipe wasn't even full, it was just packed with a decent amount of spice with a market value of 50-100 sid or so.

Then, my PC smokes it -- over time, spread out over weeks and weeks, with plenty of IC hours between hits to allow for the effects to "dissipate." I was trying to smoke it "responsibly" or "carefully."

Before my pipe is even empty, my PC now has their first permanent decrease to one of their stats because of it.


Lesson learned: I won't be using that spice (or many others like it) ever again. Is this desirable? no.

[Harmless]

Or another way to put it. In terms of how people should ICly see spice, a roid-ranger should see a brick of (spice X) and drool. Instead, they're more likely to see that brick and think, "Heh, how am I ever going to smoke all of that without fucking myself up, and how the hell am I ever going to find someone to help me smoke all of it... what a pain." = broken system.

[manipura]

Oh good, Lizzie said what I wasn't sure I should post or not.

I think the spice code is just fine as it is.  To be honest, I can't say that I come across many people who avoid certain spices because they are OOCly worried about lasting effects.

[Harmless]

the above two posts are helpful to the discussion, but I still don't think there's nearly enough use of spice in game.. basically I have played several characters that try to sell spice and it has been pretty difficult to nearly impossible to get buyers. This means I am basically asking for a "buff" to spice so I can get more business, which is a pretty selfish reason to ask for a code change, but the bottom line is I am pretty dissatisfied with the market demand for spice and wanted to see it looked at.

[Beethoven]

When I say "for it" I mean "for reducing the price." Never dealt with the permanent negative effects of spice, so I can't comment on that.

[Lizzie]

When I say "for it" I mean "for reducing the price." Never dealt with the permanent negative effects of spice, so I can't comment on that.

But as I mentioned, you can get it *free* if you're willing to accept the risk and spend a minimal investment in buying a sifter. Spice is a premium in Tuluk because it comes from RSV, and taxes, and risk, etc. etc. etc. Spice is unavailable publically in Allanak, because it's illegal. You can get it cheap in RSV, free in the silt, reasonably priced in Luir's.

[Narf]

I'm not sure I am following.

Harmless is saying that some people that want to play with spice are opting not to because the coded effects are too harsh.

S/he is also saying that if the coded effects were less harsh, a greater percentage of the subset of people that want to have their characters play with spice would do so.

S/he then stated that this is a desirable outcome because it would shift spice away from a flavor role and into the game proper.

[CodeMaster]

Lizzie's spoiler is helpful - does it appear in the helpfiles anywhere?  If not explicitly, then perhaps there are "traditions" surrounding spice consumption that could be written up in a helpfile; these could implicitly inform players how to avoid these negative effects with a few hint-hint nudge-nudges.

I kind of agree with Harmless.  I imagine if spice was more like anabolic steroids or TRT it would see more use.  These are probably bad for your long-term health (absolutely if you don't know what you're doing), but are actually GREAT for your short-term health and recovery, and help older athletes remain competitive long past their prime.

To remedy the situation, but still make spice dangerous, it might be a nice change if the negative effects of using spice didn't begin to start crushing your PC until he hit human-equivalent 45, or 50 (who's going to live that long anyway?), and shortened your character's lifespan.

[Riev]

I understand completely what Harmless means. Unfortunately, I've noticed numerous times that PCs do not even CASUALLY engage in smoking spice, unless to gain its perceived combat benefits. Right now it feels like a flavor role for the longer-lived PCs or vets that know how to at least score a hit. The Guild, in my mind, was supposed to be the pushers, but since they only deal with PCs, and maybe 1-2 PCs in the area are even SMOKING spice (and they smuggle it in through other means) it kind of removes the "seedy drug dealer" feel from alley dwellers.

I don't have suggestions on how to make it better, but it really feels like an expensive money sink flavor tool. Make kohl eyeliner illegal, and find out how many people still try to look like Khal Drogo. And spice supposedly makes you a tougher fighter!

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

For me, if I have ever chosen not to smoke spice, it was either because I was a 'loyal' Nakki, or the price. I don't know that spice is over-priced - it just never seemed like something my PCs were interested in obtaining over water, food, sword #473, silken robe #210, or what have you.

I will agree that it's not as tempting as it could be, but I certainly don't agree that the negative effects should be removed, by any stretch of the imagination. Perhaps an idea would be to shorten the casual side-effects, but but a positively-weighted randomization to the addiction code, so that you could use spice for years, however you liked, and never get addicted, or use it twice and be hooked for life.

IRL, addiction is not cut and dry. Not everybody who uses cocaine is addicted to it, and not everybody who takes pain pills are addicted to them, but anybody who uses those things over a varied amount of time can and will likely become addicted to it. If there were a 1 percent chance that your character could become addicted, but no cut and dry rule to avoid it, I think it would enhance both the risk, and the thrill of it, and if combined with a sure-fire way to become un-addicted that took a prolonged amount of time to play through, meaning that even if you ruined your character you could recover, I think that would fix this perceived issue.

[Reiloth]

IMHO, ICly, it makes sense if you want to be an addict, to join Kurac.

[Dresan]

It sounds like it would be a great money sink for the game if the negative effects were removed but only for Kuraci sold spice.  

I would also recommend that kuraci sold spice should last longer then it does, a whole IC day if not two for the price (heck adjust the price higher if you want). I guess one can always carry more spice but its a bit annoying to have to sniff up all the time, and makes it less reliable when you are doing lengthy dangerous tasks. To balance it out though, you should only be able to smoke/sniff a very modest amount before you get a message you are about to pass out, how many times you can do it should be dependent on endurance and possibly a skill like alcohol tolerance.

This would really make it a staple for a lot of people to purchase and carry around as much as food/water. If you can afford it, there would be no reason not to be spiced up. Even in allanak where its illegal, the demand would skyrocket.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I wouldn't have a problem at all with Kurac spice being a different animal than 'wild' spice.

[Reiloth]

Part of that 'negative effect' is what breeds addicts though.

You feel like shit, so you start smoking spice to feel 'normal' again.

Thus the cycle begins.

I don't know why Kurac would develop spice that only makes you feel great. The burnout is part of the hook that keeps customers coming back, instead of just getting their rocks off on the weekend.

[Nyr]

I removed Lizzie's spoiler.

There's only really one issue here then--you don't know enough about how it works.  And that can be learned in-game.  The reason I removed Lizzie's spoiler isn't because it's some massive secret or anything, but because it's not in the documentation and it would be better for you to figure it out yourself.  Some IC systems take some learning.  The brew system is one system that took me years to even understand that it was a system unlike crafting.  It follows rules, but you have to learn them!  I take it that this may be your first character that used spice in any significant way.  You are under an impression about the coded effects of spice that simply isn't true.  You're missing a piece of the puzzle.  If you're waiting for the high to wear off and then immediately getting high again, you actually aren't waiting for the effects to wear off...you're just waiting for the high to wear off.  And yes, that's the kind of behavior a complete addict would shoot for.  You are playing a spice addict, then, whether you realize it or not.

Anyway, more people should use spice in-game.