The Clans and Economy Thread

[BadSkeelz]

What happens if they don't turn out capable for the role? The only options left for the House are to either keep them in their position and put up with someone incapable, kill them, or demote them. And the later instance that's unfair to the character, who's now stuck in a first-tier position for the rest of his life, just because he couldn't cut it as something more.

If you don't want your lifesworn character to get demoted down to a position of lessened responsibility, stop being a fuck up.

Edited for page roll.

[Rahnevyn]

I feel like I'm coming late to the party, but I feel as though the topic of life-oaths and clans demanding them veers a bit away from clan pay and the economy and probably deserves its own thread.

[Ouroboros]

Split us off at will, Rahnevyn. I think we stopped discussing the OT, that of being the cost of drinking in relation to clan pay, somewhere past the first or second page. Though in our defense I'm not sure how much more could be said on that topic, and everyone seemed to agree drinks could stand to be made cheaper.

[Rahnevyn]

You know what, you're right. I just renamed the topic to be more inclusive. Viola.

[Ouroboros]

You know what, you're right. I just renamed the topic to be more inclusive. Viola.

[valeria]

What happens if they don't turn out capable for the role? The only options left for the House are to either keep them in their position and put up with someone incapable, kill them, or demote them. And the later instance that's unfair to the character, who's now stuck in a first-tier position for the rest of his life, just because he couldn't cut it as something more.

If you don't want your lifesworn character to get demoted down to a position of lessened responsibility, stop being a fuck up.

Edited for page roll.

Conversely, if your lifesworn character is really such a fuckup and you're really bored as a player... just go ahead and desert.  You know you want to.  And you know it's better than a slow roll-toward-storage through player boredom.

[Ouroboros]

Or, you know, we could actually address a problem in a realistic and responsible fashion.

As opposed to asking players to grow a pair, or man up, or whatever other "tough love" sentiment might make us sound cool on the GDB... in our minds.

[ShaLeah]

Alright, I know  much of this seems off topic, in that the thread is titled clan pay...But from the OP and others, it seems what the title should be...yet again, How to make clans more attractive.

SO...that being said, here is what I would do if I had control..

First off, I would get rid of life oath or the possibility of life oath for EVERY clan....GMH, Noble, militia, legion....For rank and file. I would then instate/reinstate any and all elite ranks in all of those clans. The elites of course Would be life oath...sorry, but if I am a clan leader of some kind I want my elites to be fanatics. I would put a hard cap on all the elites of all clans...That being 4-5...likely 5, 1 officer and 4 lower...cepting Militia and Legion, which would have a cap of maybe 7.

The elites of course would be the highest paid, best equipped best taken care of but also held to the highest standards.

I would also get rid of "contracts" 1 year, 2, 5...whatever...screw that, you are not  elite and oathed...you don't want to be here any more? Well, we don't want you...go, have a happy life...NEXT!

This I think would go the farthest to making clans, all clans more attractive to a majority of the players.

PS
Would this mean there would be elite groups lording status over everybody else? YES...least I would hope so.

PPS
I base these ideas on Kurac actually...Back when the outriders were playable, the press to join Kurac just to have the chance to become an outrider was quite high...no reason why that should not apply to any clan....Oh, you are legion you say...well, that is nice, serve the sun king...Cool...Oh wait, Ivory guard? Wow!

PPPS
I would also return to the practice of sending prospective people to employ, at least in a military/hunting role to a clan to the Byn for a year.

I like it.

Though I'd add that the promotion cap needs to be lifted across the board, not just for the elites in organizations. The sky could be the limit, provided that one earns it. Maybe not a PC BLACK robe, but Master Agents, Master Merchants, Lieutenant Commanders, promotions from officers to Templars, Blues to Reds, Junior Nobles to forces to be reckoned with, you get the drift. Fear of abuse? Meh, storage, demotion. I mean, how would these people even get close if they weren't trusted in some way? If they haven't done everything (mostly) right?

It's disheartening, the cap.


Did I mention to make it harder to be indy out in the wild? Aye, think I did.

[James de Monet]

promotions from officers to Templars

That's...not how that works.

[valeria]

Or, you know, we could actually address a problem in a realistic and responsible fashion.

As opposed to asking players to grow a pair, or man up, or whatever other "tough love" sentiment might make us sound cool on the GDB... in our minds.

Your premise is that there is a problem and we need to solve it.  My premise is that if there is a problem, there are already solutions available.  I chose to point this out in a way that amused me, you choose not to be amused.  That's fine.  But we don't all have to agree with your premise to contribute to the conversation.

[Barsook]

promotions from officers to Templars

That's...not how that works.

Yes, because you must be a Noble to get that promotion.  And that would require a staff role call for a character like that.

[HavokBlue]

promotions from officers to Templars

That's...not how that works.

Yes, because you must be a Noble to get that promotion.  And that would require a staff role call for a character like that.

but that's still not how that works

[ShaLeah]

promotions from officers to Templars

That's...not how that works.

Yes, because you must be a Noble to get that promotion.  And that would require a staff role call for a character like that.

Maybe not that specific scenario but something similar has in the past (non "noble" templars in the south) I was just using that as an example. Why -wouldn't- the Highlord/Mukky reward service by way of moar powah?

These are staff implemented limitations. I think some of them should be lifted. I also think Templars/Nobles should be able to enslave any commoner on the slightest whim, that there should be more murder, that dorfs shouldn't be as socially accepted as they are and tons of other things that don't (and likely won't ever) happen.


Anything that a player can shoot for that they can only get through joining a clan and working like a 'tok would be good for the game world I think. More people wanting to join clans would reduce indies and pump more wealth into the already wealthy rulers of the world.

[Ouroboros]

Or, you know, we could actually address a problem in a realistic and responsible fashion.

As opposed to asking players to grow a pair, or man up, or whatever other "tough love" sentiment might make us sound cool on the GDB... in our minds.

Your premise is that there is a problem and we need to solve it.  My premise is that if there is a problem, there are already solutions available.  I chose to point this out in a way that amused me, you choose not to be amused.  That's fine.  But we don't all have to agree with your premise to contribute to the conversation.

You suggested a solution to this (non?) problem. It was an amusing one. I laughed. Then I figured that instead of expecting players to stop being fuckups as BadSkeelz suggested, which is as likely as expecting Byn Sergeants to never fall off the Shield Wall, or asking players to rebel from a clan that made them swear a lifeoath before being sure they were cut-out for it, there might be a better solution somewhere out there that's more realistic in its expectations and a bit responsible towards players.

Don't read too much into it. Have a smiley face in fact, they're good for the soul.

[Barzalene]

I hear what you mean about trends Ouroboros, and I think you do have a point. There are trends. But I also think they self correct in time.
I mean it's like this - I take a sponsored role. I have minions. The players of my minions either think my pc is great or they don't. The ones who do may go on to run things the way I did. (They would do this, because they enjoyed themselves.)
Other players will not enjoy playing in the clan they way I lead it. They will go on to play leadership roles. they will do things differently.

You and XD will play leadership roles. You'll inspire some to do it your way. You'll inspire others to be sure not to do it your way.

And too, the people who don't like those leadership styles will play in other clans or play independents.

[BadSkeelz]

I'll stop telling people to stop being fuckups when people stop saying leaders owe them more fun. Still irked about that.

On a more reasoned note, I remain deeply skeptical that seasoned employees privy to an organization's secrets would just be allowed to walk away whenever the character/player grows bored with the role. An answer would be to increase the distance one has to travel to get to that point of trustworthiness by adding new ranks or such, as others have suggested. I would be more open to that so long as it doesn't become ridiculous.

[X-D]

Thing is Barz....We really cannot do it another way unless staff makes changes....The rank ceiling is still nearly ground level, Life oath is still in every clan docs and most do not state Only Sarge+ etc, all of the elite groups are closed...many clans are closed and of the ones that are open, almost half of them are allowed to have like a noble...who can have an aide and be a patron.

Again I state, in 2000 we had half the people we do now...during peak you were happy to see 30, and most the time the numbers were under 20...and yet,  In the south alone, you had 4 noble houses to choose from, Militia, Byn, And 4 GMH...10 clans in nak, (and that is not even counting the rinth, which also has seen clan reduction) and most everybody was clanned...I would estimate 80-90%. The recruiting drive for brand new PCs as they entered the game was at times comical.

Today we have...Um, no noble houses or one...not sure, Oash does not count, 3 merchant houses...Oh wait, sorry, in nak, 2, the byn and militia...So, 4, maybe 5 total clans that PCs can join in nak...Yet, fully half the PCs I see are unclanned...Sure, I can not see it staff side so that could be skewed, so let us call it 40%. And for the most part, I do not think the clans that are open are even full.

So, what almost every post I have made on this thread try to address is, What has changed?

I mean people constantly complain, Not enough clanned PCs, too many indies...Make life harder for the indies or Pay clan members more....And none of that is the reason things are the way they are.

Hell, used to be that clan pay REALLY sucked, I mean, like a Tor private made 50 coins a month...and yet people were WANTING into that clan...when I had my LT I think at one point I had 12 other players in the red scorpions alone.

And sure, PC leadership accounts for the short term cycles of course, but it does not account for the over all cycle...there has been no clans good, clans bad cycle in the last 14 years, it has been just a steady decline in clans and clan membership % wise.



Oh, and you all want to know how to make life hard for indies?

Take away all clan unending water sources.

But XD...That hurts clanners!

No, it makes the clanners have to go get water, either by draining all the free water sources or going out and collecting up resources and selling them to buy water. And on that point Clanned PCs have a real edge, because 6 salarri can go out, kill, forage, collect everything in an area, come back, fill the npc merchant inventories and get all the coin.

[James de Monet]

I don't feel like that's wholly accurate.

Sure, the Golden Age of Kadius may have been around '99, but the Golden Age of Kurac was from like 2004-2007.

I can't really speak to Salarr, but weren't they party rocking about the same time?

The Red Fangs were taking names from like 2008-2010?

And the two militias are always an on-again off-again kind of affair.

I don't feel like its fair to say clans have sucked since '00.

[James de Monet]

I'm probably about to get a hail of date corrections. Let me preempt you.


*all dates are approximate

[X-D]

I purposely did not include tribes, though they are considered clans, one cannot be recruited in so they do not count for this thread.

As to Kurac, Heh, the golden age of kurac was pretty much from when they opened for play to the closing of the outriders.


But as I also said, leaders do cause rises, there is no doubt of that, the really bad ones also cause falls. But just because the byn might have 60 players right now does not mean that overall clan membership per capita is not on the decline.

As to any of them, including Salarr, that was a combination of fun leaders and a special "elite" Group...which is now closed as well.


Never said they sucked, but they surely are not nearly as fun or fulfilling to many people.

[BadSkeelz]

I think I get it now.

There's not enough chance for people to play snowflakes in clans. But every indie is a snowflake. So people play indies.

Solution: people in clans get to design their own ranks, uniforms, schedules and privileges.

[KankWhisperer]

I think I see a common thread that people think the golden age was when -they- played and when -they- were the leader.
Nice backhanded way to say leaders now or at other times are no good.

Anyhow, I agree. Get rid of the very low ceiling. What's the worst that could happen? Players could cause plots and change?

[X-D]

Eh, I do not see that thread.

And when they played what, in clans? The game?

Personally, I prefer to play a minion, and have had great times in clans as such...but even a minion likes to advance in the minion ranks...eventually being rewarded for being such a good minion and being invited to join the minion elite.

And BadSkeelz...I am just going to have to call your initials on that post.

[BadSkeelz]

Rightly so: it makes about as much sense as telling clans they should start grinding for water.

I'd be more interested in seeing substantiated numbers of how many people are in clans, and other theories about why they are or are not joining them. It's just as plausible to me that "Back in the day" of low player numbers people would join clans because it guaranteed interaction, instead of being spread across the Known world. Now that we have about twice the number of peak players, it seems more likely that people can play an independent with decent chance of interacting with others (clanned or not) just because people are thicker on the ground.

[BadSkeelz]

As far as the perception that "elite clans like the Outriders are no longer allowed, so people don't want to play in a clan," I think that's a viewpoint  problem. For me at least, every GMH, noble, or militia clan is elite, compared to the masses of unwashed (V)NPCs our characters are usually struggling to rise above. Even a standard no-frill artisan in a GMH is worlds above an unaffiliated crafter-grebber in terms of resources, prestige, and safety. We as players shouldn't forget that.