The Clans and Economy Thread

[Is Friday]

The problem you run into with not having lifesworn PCs being leadership is that the organization doesn't give enough fucks to retaliate against whoever if that guy gets killed off. I've seen that happen more than once.

Also: No they haven't paid off their "debt" to the GMH, because the status and protection afforded a lowly common whelp cannot be bought by an independent.

[Barzalene]

I think no one is asked or forced to swear, (unless they express interest in a promotion that requires it) but once you have chosen to swear, you're sworn. That's your bed. Sleep in it.

[Barzalene]

GMH that is. Militia, no. You're in if you're in. Unless something special happens.

[Is Friday]

I'll also add that I think it's a non-issue about the lifeswearing. Do people really complain about that seriously?

[Barzalene]

I'll also add that I think it's a non-issue about the lifeswearing. Do people really complain about that seriously?

Mostly on the GDB

[Ouroboros]

The problem you run into with not having lifesworn PCs being leadership is that the organization doesn't give enough fucks to retaliate against whoever if that guy gets killed off. I've seen that happen more than once.

So... It's there to protect them... after they've died? Losing me there.

Also: No they haven't paid off their "debt" to the GMH, because the status and protection afforded a lowly common whelp cannot be bought by an independent.

Losing me here too. Isn't that the benefit of joining a clan in general? You get that status and protection by being a member of a clan in general, in exchange for your paid (or underpaid some might argue) service. How is that a privilage for those that life-swear?

GMH that is. Militia, no. You're in if you're in. Unless something special happens.

No longer the case with the Legion, which is partly what brought up the issue of being able to retire from being life-sworn to begin with. You're "in" if you're in, unless you're just a bit in, and can now retire from being in even if you're "in".

Also, "something special happening" happens a lot more frequently than it should, in every clan. To the point it's become a joke to many. Having some guidelines set down on the proper use of a life-oath and permitting one to retire from it would at least make it less of a joke when folks do get out of their life-oath. As it stands it's the most commonly-broken unbreakable rule.

I'll also add that I think it's a non-issue about the lifeswearing. Do people really complain about that seriously?

Usually depends on who's asking for and/or offering the oath from whom, why, for what rank, and in what clan. How often that happens depends on who you ask, as evidenced in this thread. Your mileage may vary.

[racurtne]

The nice thing for clan leaders in the Legion now is knowing who is in it for the long haul and who is doing a 'stint'. This can help them keep those members in the dark about more sensitive things. Being able to just up and leave when your leaders fully expected you to stay with them is kind of iffy, though.

In terms of economy, I could see people getting more perks for staying on for the long haul. I imagine it's mostly like that now anyway, though.

[Italis]

Some thoughts, specifically on the topic of GMHs - Militia and Noble House organizations probably take different views on the subject.

1. As a term and concept, "lifesworn" is largely a player-instituted construct, based on PC traditions that have been passed down over many years. With Merchants in particular, it wouldn't have been originally intended as a formal oath, but more like a "do-not-compete" contractual clause to stop folk from the inner circle running off to join their competitors, or starting up a competing outfit.

2. On reviewing the GMH documentation (as per the 2012 update), there has been a bit of "lifesworn-creep", having become attached to positions that shouldn't strictly require it - again, most likely as a result of player tradition. For comparison, the original Kadius documentation only ever mentioned the term 'lifetime loyalty' once, for one specific rank. This is definitely something we could look into.

3. Even so, it's still possible to function perfectly well in all three Great Merchant Houses without ever signing up on a permanent basis.

4. Ideally, the choice of serving for life should be an option extended to long-time employees as a reward and a show of trust, rather than an absolute requirement used to keep employees firmly under your thumb. Although PCs may not see it the same way, your average Zalanthan would absolutely jump at the chance for guaranteed employment for life!

[Riev]

Some thoughts, specifically on the topic of GMHs - Militia and Noble House organizations probably take different views on the subject.

1. As a term and concept, "lifesworn" is largely a player-instituted construct, based on PC traditions that have been passed down over many years. With Merchants in particular, it wouldn't have been originally intended as a formal oath, but more like a "do-not-compete" contractual clause to stop folk from the inner circle running off to join their competitors, or starting up a competing outfit.

I remember being in a GMH clan semi-recently, and coming up with the idea that "I"ll be your Merchant, because you need one, until you find someone more capable. I'm not going anywhere anytime soon." and I was told "You have to swear your life to us, before we trust you with any of our secrets." Non-compete clause nothing, my PC saw an opening and tried for it, and it OOCly felt like I got Doc-Blocked.

2. On reviewing the GMH documentation (as per the 2012 update), there has been a bit of "lifesworn-creep", having become attached to positions that shouldn't strictly require it - again, most likely as a result of player tradition. For comparison, the original Kadius documentation only ever mentioned the term 'lifetime loyalty' once, for one specific rank. This is definitely something we could look into.

Even if its just an IDB discussion on what Lifeoath means, clan dependent or not, would be nice.

3. Even so, it's still possible to function perfectly well in all three Great Merchant Houses without ever signing up on a permanent basis.

Yes. As a Salarri, you can be a Contracted Hunter, or a Contracted Crafter. Pretty damned good positions, but if a Lifeoath is dangled as "You've done good. Swear your life to us, and the Family, or you will never have anyone's trust" is kind of heartbreaking. More on that later...

4. Ideally, the choice of serving for life should be an option extended to long-time employees as a reward and a show of trust, rather than an absolute requirement used to keep employees firmly under your thumb. Although PCs may not see it the same way, your average Zalanthan would absolutely jump at the chance for guaranteed employment for life!

This is the meat of it, in my opinion. Being offered a Lifesworn position isn't just "Well I've been a Recruit for a year, and a regular Clannie for a year. Give me secrets and plots". But more of a "Listen. We've vetted you. We like you, you've made us a LOT of money, would you like to be brought into the fold? If you do, there are untold riches and knowledge at your fingertips. If you don't, you will continue to make the coin you always have, but some jerkwad Officer might come from another unit and screw it all up."

Being offered lifesworn should be MOMENTOUS, and should OPEN UP OPPORTUNITY, not be something dangled as in "Join us or leave" or "Offer yourself to us, and us alone, because otherwise you never had the heart and we don't want you around."

[HavokBlue]

The lack of specialized units in the GMHs doesn't mean trusted PCs aren't called on for the same things, and besides that, I think staff give leaders a bit of leeway if they want to assign made up titles and names to their minions, with the understanding that this made up role dies with the characters and isn't official.

I think if your PC feels trapped in their job after a life oath they should talk to their boss about changing their situation, or if you are really worried about it, don't take the life oath. You can still be a trusted Kuraci mercenary or Salarri cadet or Kadian whatever, but don't be upset when you aren't called on for the top secret mission to infiltrate Chosen Lord Fuckwood's estate and steal his tarts.

[Is Friday]

The problem you run into with not having lifesworn PCs being leadership is that the organization doesn't give enough fucks to retaliate against whoever if that guy gets killed off. I've seen that happen more than once.

So... It's there to protect them... after they've died? Losing me there.

No.

Also: No they haven't paid off their "debt" to the GMH, because the status and protection afforded a lowly common whelp cannot be bought by an independent.

Losing me here too. Isn't that the benefit of joining a clan in general? You get that status and protection by being a member of a clan in general, in exchange for your paid (or underpaid some might argue) service. How is that a privilage for those that life-swear?

Not to that extent. Lifeswearing comes with the privilege of leadership or extended service, which implies that the person is valuable. Lifeswearing isn't required for anyone, it's voluntary.

What's the complaint here, again?

[HavokBlue]

What's the complaint here, again?

i can't commit to an exclusive relationship right now and i know we've been married for years but really don't you think it's better if we take some time off to see other people

[Lizzie]

The whole lifeswearing issue is such an issue that PCs were killed by sponsored bosses as a result of the issue, much OOC drama was created over it, plotlines wrecked because of it. And that was just one year, in one clan.

I remember at one point, one GMH was actively recruiting, and as soon as someone got in, they were instructed they couldn't get out unless they were kicked out. This was an on-going thing for a couple of RL months, during which the staff was well aware of what was going on. When someone from another GMH "courted" a recruit from that GMH hoping to get them to switch, that recruit was summarily PKed, and the other recruits told that it was a lesson to them if they ever dared attempt to leave, the same would happen to them.

And that was just a recruit.

Thankfully, there's been a changing of the guards since then, but it has set up a very unhappy precedent, and people DO remember this period of time. That event really gave the notion of "lifeswearing" a bad name and some of us are still hesitant to accept such a "promotion" when offered, and even go out of our way to prove ourselves UNworthy so we never have to be put into the position of turning it down.

Personally I like how Kurac has it set up. You can be a Mercenary indefinitely, you never have to swear an oath, you'll still get paid, you'll still be expected to work on an "as-needed" basis, you're still expected to base yourself out of Luir's, you're still expected to show up for meetings. Otherwise, you're on your own and free to come and go however it suits you. If you accept a promotion beyond mercenary, it means both you and Kurac have agreed that you are part of the Kurac family, trusted with "stuff" and trusting Kurac to watch your back.

A trend I've seen though, in all three GMHs and even in noble houses, is when "lifesworn" people are allowed to leave employment. Either you're lifesworn or you're not. By allowing lifesworn to leave employment, the employers are basically turning the whole concept into a joke.

If we're now shifting to "lifesworn, sort of, but we don't really mean it," how about we just get rid of the lifeswearing concept entirely. Make it so that the only people who are "lifesworn" to a clan, are people who were born to that clan. Everyone else is just an "at-will" employee.

If you want to keep the lifeswearing, then get rid of the "but" at the end of it. No more "lifesworn, but you can leave now because you've done such a bang-up job."

If someone is retired from service, they're retired. They're not quitting one job so that they can take another. That's not what retired means.

[Is Friday]

So far as I understand, each clan has a tier at which you can leave at any point without real repercussions. Of course, you'll have to let your boss know... but you're not lifesworn or anything. You just won't be a leader in that clan if you don't lifeswear. Who wants to be a leader in a clan, anyway? There's few players that even want that for themselves, so I see this as a small demographic to begin with.

This complaint as an example of "I want all the bennies with none of the drawbacks, plz"

similar to: "I wanna play a powerful mul and not roleplay racial docs".

[Barzalene]

I remember being in a GMH clan semi-recently, and coming up with the idea that "I"ll be your Merchant, because you need one, until you find someone more capable. I'm not going anywhere anytime soon." and I was told "You have to swear your life to us, before we trust you with any of our secrets." Non-compete clause nothing, my PC saw an opening and tried for it, and it OOCly felt like I got Doc-Blocked.

I can see that for some positions. I just can. Merchant being one of them. Last time I took a role in a GMH one of the first things I was told was don't bring people into the warehouse.  I assume that means don't bring outsiders into the warehouse, don't let random employees muck about in there. So, I can't see taking some guy off the street and trusting him with all your merchandise and vast amounts of money. I'd like to see a great level of commitment before we get to that part. Sort of like waiting til after the wedding you spread your legs.

[Ouroboros]

Good to see some staff input on this, thank you Italis.

1. As a term and concept, "lifesworn" is largely a player-instituted construct, based on PC traditions that have been passed down over many years. With Merchants in particular, it wouldn't have been originally intended as a formal oath, but more like a "do-not-compete" contractual clause to stop folk from the inner circle running off to join their competitors, or starting up a competing outfit.

That definitely would have made sense in the days the GMH's first begun, so it's an understandable tradition. Perhaps as far as a GMH is concerned, the meaning of life-swearing as a coded effect could be re-examined and brought up to date with today's reality? Today the GMH's have an absolutely monopoly in their respective trades, and have no major cause for concern in a merchant or artisan leaving to join a competitor. They have no competitors. Any that might surface are squashed or absorbed appropriately, and any that aren't clearly don't pose enough of a threat to be dealt with.

Whatever secrets of the craft a merchant might learn in their time in a GMH are largely useless to them outside it, since they don't apply to the trades of another GMH and they can't be much employed without the backing of a large organization (as reflected by clan-restricted recipies).  Sharing with someone outside the House on whether there's five or ten scrab shells in storage has zero impact on that House. The only thing they could take with them in leaving a GMH are... a) House property, marking them as thieves to be dealt with. b) Internal gossip or strategies, which can often be acquired without being lifesworn and often useless outside the House (and if not useless, can bring about Murder, Corruption, Betryal). c) Any reputation they've earned, good or bad, which follows every character regardless.

Perhaps retirement from a life-oath position in a GMH could stipulate a non-compete clause as far as working for any other GMH, mostly just on principle, but that's about all I can see as meaningful for such positions. Even someone wanting to continue to tinker with their chosen profession after retiring from a GMH makes sense, as is common with most craftsmen who retire in RL as well, and shouldn't pose major issues. If it comes to the point there's an issue, it would be dealt with just as it would with any indie who's come to pose an issue.

2. On reviewing the GMH documentation (as per the 2012 update), there has been a bit of "lifesworn-creep", having become attached to positions that shouldn't strictly require it - again, most likely as a result of player tradition. For comparison, the original Kadius documentation only ever mentioned the term 'lifetime loyalty' once, for one specific rank. This is definitely something we could look into.

I can see life-swearing as a requirement for any position in the Agent branch of a GMH, assuming a non-family member is brought into it. Being made family usually follows such cases. And I can see it as a requirement for high-level Mercantile or Hunter positions, particularly those where the characters have no direct PC above them but report to staff directly. For such characters, accountability is a lot more important as they've essentially risen through the ranks to the equivalent of a sponsored role. But for ranks below such, a life-oath makes little sense today.

Over the years "lifesworn-creep" has reached as far down as second-tier ranks, meaning the next rank following a regular full member (a Corporal in most military structures for example). Sometimes it's even offered to first-tier regular members, and while in such instances it's meant to serve as a way to fast-track a character, I'm not quite convinced that a first-tier character should even be offered that opportunity. Especially without the option of retirement, you're essentially taking a character at the beginning of their career and pigeonholing them for life just to speed them along a promotion that might not even require an oath to begin with. If someone shows that sort of promise, the leadership should simply keep a close eye on them and promote them as they see fit. It's a risk they should be taking, if there's a risk at all, until the character comes to a position that stipulates an oath.

One of the negative effects the above has, is creating an atmosphere that states, "If you want to be treated right, swear." Letting a first or second tier member take an oath they're not required to leads other PCs in that clan to feel pressured into doing the same. That in turn becomes the norm, and this is partly what's contributed to the "lifeoath-creep" that we've witnessed so far. By restricting it to specific ranks only, it keeps things on the level for everyone involved in a clan, present and future.

3. Even so, it's still possible to function perfectly well in all three Great Merchant Houses without ever signing up on a permanent basis.

While I agree on paper, the fact is that unfortunately really depends on the PC leadership in charge. With leaders that follow the documented guidelines as per which ranks require an oath, it rarely becomes an issue. With ones that don't, it can and has become a problem for many over time. Having the use of a life-oath regulated instead of up to PC leader's discretion would if nothing else ensure that your statement rings true. Characters would be able to function perfectly well without an oath, until such time as their aspirations brought them to a promotion that would require one.

4. Ideally, the choice of serving for life should be an option extended to long-time employees as a reward and a show of trust, rather than an absolute requirement used to keep employees firmly under your thumb. Although PCs may not see it the same way, your average Zalanthan would absolutely jump at the chance for guaranteed employment for life!

As Riev said, this is key. That's definitely how it should be viewed, both from an IC and OOC fashion. It isn't always viewed as such though, and that's mainly why this discussion is taking place. Some of the changes discussed so far are meant to address that, so that it becomes more of a reward and less of a penalty.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I, too, support having non-lifesworn employee ranks in particularly the GMH clans. I do not support having further roles open up that are not life sworn. Within the basic actual employee guidelines, the leader can twist things so that their employees can fill all sorts of roles.

Reiv, your leader probably could have done this for you, but how they could have might not have crossed their minds at the time. I'm sorry that they were not able to figure it out.

What I really want to see happen is swearing life made more OOC glorious. And that's hard without inflating stuff like pay, etc, etc.

I still think that not allowing independents to have bank accounts would be a super way to do this. Maybe in-House fitters and tailors, too, that provide that service free of charge. I could see free private quarters for life-sworn employees. I think the current Allanaki apartment revamps going on will help some with this - while not free lodging, it's specialized to members of certain clans in some cases, which is darned cool and brag-about-able.

[Ouroboros]

What's the complaint here, again?

i can't commit to an exclusive relationship right now and i know we've been married for years but really don't you think it's better if we take some time off to see other people

I see it more as... "Look we've been going out for a couple years and it's been great so far, but I'm not sure I'm ready to marry you. We could be engaged if such an option existed in this world, but it doesn't. And your family has some very troubling views on divorce, so... Yeah, can't we just see where this goes?"

[Ouroboros]

I, too, support having non-lifesworn employee ranks in particularly the GMH clans. I do not support having further roles open up that are not life sworn. Within the basic actual employee guidelines, the leader can twist things so that their employees can fill all sorts of roles.

I don't think anyone's asked for more non-oath roles to be opened outside of documentation. Problem is many of the roles that currently "require" it, depending on what day it is and which way the wind is blowing, were never really meant to. Personally I'm asking for which roles require it and which don't to be set in stone and adhered to. I'd like to see less twisting of the guidelines by leaders and more adherence to them.

I still think that not allowing independents to have bank accounts would be a super way to do this. Maybe in-House fitters and tailors, too, that provide that service free of charge. I could see free private quarters for life-sworn employees. I think the current Allanaki apartment revamps going on will help some with this - while not free lodging, it's specialized to members of certain clans in some cases, which is darned cool and brag-about-able.

I still think that penalizing indie is rarely the solution to anything, oft-touted as it might be. Yeah, we all hate them and they suck and should die slow and painful deaths, but them doing so isn't going to magically improve things for clanned individuals. However, further benefits to clans will, such as the step staff took with apartments and other benefits you mentioned.

In essence... I really don't think that being life-oathed should bring any perks at all. I think it should simply be a contract to be signed for certain ranks, clear and simple. Those ranks already come with perks embedded, so essentially those are the rewards of a life-oath. In my opinion though there should never exist two characters of equal rank, where one is sworn and the other isn't. Controversial, I know.

[a french mans shirt]

Not allowing indies to have bank accounts may lead to money taking other forms and still being traded in ghastly amounts, like mount tickets.

Maybe staff that are interested can start researching lifesworn and comparing their experiences to that of other players and maybe coming up with an alternative if storing and lifespan rates are really that bad. I like lifeswearing being an option, though. Playing someone who legally bound themselves for life to a merchant house sounds like fun in the right circumstances.

Make leaders able to give a flag to lifesworn people making it impossible for them to quit without rebelling.

[Riev]

I remember being in a GMH clan semi-recently, and coming up with the idea that "I"ll be your Merchant, because you need one, until you find someone more capable. I'm not going anywhere anytime soon." and I was told "You have to swear your life to us, before we trust you with any of our secrets." Non-compete clause nothing, my PC saw an opening and tried for it, and it OOCly felt like I got Doc-Blocked.

I can see that for some positions. I just can. Merchant being one of them. Last time I took a role in a GMH one of the first things I was told was don't bring people into the warehouse.  I assume that means don't bring outsiders into the warehouse, don't let random employees muck about in there. So, I can't see taking some guy off the street and trusting him with all your merchandise and vast amounts of money. I'd like to see a great level of commitment before we get to that part. Sort of like waiting til after the wedding you spread your legs.

In this specific instance, it was someone who had served three IC years of their contract, still had two more to go, had no outward (or inward, for that matter) hopes of leaving, just wanted to "help out" and maybe "get a transfer out of this shit hole". Even at Junior Merchant status, someone who can take orders, after 3 years where they COULD QUALIFY if they were lifesworn. The trouble isn't that it WASN'T given to me, the trouble is the Doc-Block, if it so existed. The idea that a risk couldn't even be ATTEMPTED, even though the risk was likely less than the reward of having an active Vending Machine around, because by the docs its assumed they cannot have one until they are lifesworn. The risk of Kadius allowing a 3 year non-lifesworn crafter/hunter do some orders on the side to get business rolling in an area that hasn't seen it MUST be less than the actual business they'll do, before that employee goes rogue and steals the entire warehouse.

[ShaLeah]

In conclusion, people who can't handle being life sworn are not only pussies and are probably breeds or breed lovers, but positively without a doubt shouldn't be working for Templars much less Sorcerer Kings (and Muk).

FTFYNooB

Choosing not to be in a clan should be a death sentence. That would change EVERYTHING.

I'm pretty sure they're (mostly) joking, D.

I wasn't kidding. I probably should have elaborated.

I think pay -could- be better in some places, definitely. Sid makes the world go round.
I also think that being independent in a place of such oppression would be less the norm than it is now. I don't think it should be this easy to gain wealth and autonomy on Zalanthas and indies BY FAR get much much more in the sid department than GMH players do. In a clan it seems you always have to figure out a way to supplement your income. That's what I mean by not being in a clan being a death sentence. People should be afraid to hunt alone, not spend weeks in the wastes (without a tent!?!?).

I'd like to see being in a clan the norm instead. Survival outside their protection minimal.
As Nyr said so eloquently here:

If your goal is to play an independent then you should have to work hard at it.  Suck it, indies.  ICly, I mean.  OOCly you have support from independent staff.

Unfortunately, the game world doesn't reflect that.


Lifeswearing, I'm for it, in clans and outside (for indie groups). I think Italis said it well:

Although PCs may not see it the same way, your average Zalanthan would absolutely jump at the chance for guaranteed employment for life!

I'm not giving anyone access to my shizzle without proven loyalty. Besides, it's fucking Zalanthas, betrayal is part of the shindig! Why wouldn't people "swear" only to double cross? So much delicious plotz to be had.

One last thing I needed to throw my 2 sids into.

I already specified the #1 IC reason why the GMHs would consider wanting a merger: world domination.

Dear Lord, please no. We don't need a Walmart on Zalanthas. I think all those organizations ALREADY have world domination within their respective fields. What next? Winrothol and Borsail "collaborating"?

No.

Just.... no.

[X-D]

Alright, I know  much of this seems off topic, in that the thread is titled clan pay...But from the OP and others, it seems what the title should be...yet again, How to make clans more attractive.

SO...that being said, here is what I would do if I had control..

First off, I would get rid of life oath or the possibility of life oath for EVERY clan....GMH, Noble, militia, legion....For rank and file. I would then instate/reinstate any and all elite ranks in all of those clans. The elites of course Would be life oath...sorry, but if I am a clan leader of some kind I want my elites to be fanatics. I would put a hard cap on all the elites of all clans...That being 4-5...likely 5, 1 officer and 4 lower...cepting Militia and Legion, which would have a cap of maybe 7.

The elites of course would be the highest paid, best equipped best taken care of but also held to the highest standards.

I would also get rid of "contracts" 1 year, 2, 5...whatever...screw that, you are not  elite and oathed...you don't want to be here any more? Well, we don't want you...go, have a happy life...NEXT!

This I think would go the farthest to making clans, all clans more attractive to a majority of the players.

PS
Would this mean there would be elite groups lording status over everybody else? YES...least I would hope so.

PPS
I base these ideas on Kurac actually...Back when the outriders were playable, the press to join Kurac just to have the chance to become an outrider was quite high...no reason why that should not apply to any clan....Oh, you are legion you say...well, that is nice, serve the sun king...Cool...Oh wait, Ivory guard? Wow!

PPPS
I would also return to the practice of sending prospective people to employ, at least in a military/hunting role to a clan to the Byn for a year.

[Ouroboros]

So... X-D for President? Where do I vote? Do I need to sign something?

[Ouroboros]

On a more serious note, if staff is planning on re-examining which ranks currently require an oath and seeing if some of the oath-creep that's occurred over the years can be pulled back a bit... My personal feeling is that no second-tier rank should be taking an oath. Ranks such as Corporals or Second Hunters, Merchant Trainees of any GMH, Full Crafters of Salarr, and so forth, are all ranks meant to train a member towards further future responsibility. Some are even named according to that; Trainees. I'm excluding Kuraci Regulars because while technically a second-tier rank, the structure and feel of the Fist is different for many reasons and seems to function perfectly well as it stands.

One doesn't often rise to such ranks without having exhibited a desire to do so and an according aptitude, but just the same, they're mid-grade ranks where you still report to a PC superior (if one exists) and are meant to both assist that PC and learn from them. It's a period of both training and evaluation by the House. As such, it makes little sense to require a life-long commitment from someone who's yet to prove themselves capable in such a role.

What happens if they don't turn out capable for the role? The only options left for the House are to either keep them in their position and put up with someone incapable, kill them, or demote them. And the later instance that's unfair to the character, who's now stuck in a first-tier position for the rest of his life, just because he couldn't cut it as something more.

My two cents on that bit.