Getting over Hour Zero and general Newb fustrations.

[rodic]

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php?action=post;topic=45416.225;num_replies=240

I read through most that thread, and didn't feel like necro'ing it would be a good idea.

As well I keep trying type out my thoughts but finding it to be a bit on the whiny side.

I simply want to stimulate a discussion on "different" ways to as a player to gain entry to the "game".
As well encouragement for any new/crappy player like me to keep at it, till a character sticks.

Something besides "Join the Byn" or "Join a clan" not everyone has the time nor desire to be restricted in their play, and YES clans can and are a bit restrictive to a player who might not always wanna spar Amos Generic Warrior or Craft generic sword #23.  Sometimes you want to be able to shift and adapt, with out constantly worrying about your character suffering consequences that may or may not lead to death and imprisonment.  It's frustrating to be constantly stuck at Zero, and character progression is a slow, long drawn out process that can become increasingly frustrating when simple accidents or RL inconveniences lead to loss of character and thus loss of work. Restarting completely on contacts, skills, and story.  I'm fully aware this is part of learning, but it can be a serious pain, especially when you start to get a hang of a character, and its taken from you in the blink of an eye.  This is what makes the game unique but as well makes it as equally frustrating.

Please share your experiences, tips, and idea's that haven't been discussed at length, to provide encouragement and perhaps a better understanding.  Try to think of unique things that can be done, different approaches that obviously follow the rules, and can provide better enjoyment.

I'm not calling for the game to be less "harsh" or "forgiving" nor asking for the best way to twink up a ranger or warrior or what have.

I'm asking how hour zero, or even day 1 character can be.. a better part of the world, gain entry to player bases story, and hopefully share their unique and interesting characters.

For example, what tips would you provide players, coming in with a fresh character, completely and entirely incapable of doing much of anything code wise, still able to feel significant, or at lest worth while.  Lets not kids ourselves, some roles, hell a lot of exciting roles requires tons of patience to wait for those skill gains, and despite character != skills.  Skills do play a LARGE part of what can character can possibly achieve, do, and what a player can enjoy with that character.

May the High lord protect my frail newbie ego.

[Barzalene]

You know what? It's ok to feel frustrated. We all do sometimes.
Also, new pc's rock. But new pcs suck. And it's hard to be a new pc and a new player.

My advice is to meet people. Meet them without any expectations. Without expectations that they'll help or entertain you. Meet them as though your pc were a real person. Feel free to form strong opinions. And be prudent with your starting sid to give yourself more time to figure out who your pcs want to be. Think of them not as toons, but fully realized individuals.

[solera]

Well, I started as a solo player, being a grebber around Tuluk, no offense to The Highlord intended. It satisfied my desire to be a lowly independent type, to advance in my ability to live off the land. I paid no special attention to code, more to solo emoting.  There are normally PC's around that can "use" the lowly skilled's products if you want to start connecting to other PC's and their stories.
I'm not sure if that's what you mean, but there it is.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm asking how hour zero, or even day 1 character can be.. a better part of the world, gain entry to player bases story, and hopefully share their unique and interesting characters.

For example, what tips would you provide players, coming in with a fresh character, completely and entirely incapable of doing much of anything code wise, still able to feel significant, or at lest worth while.  Lets not kids ourselves, some roles, hell a lot of exciting roles requires tons of patience to wait for those skill gains, and despite character != skills.  Skills do play a LARGE part of what can character can possibly achieve, do, and what a player can enjoy with that character.

May the High lord protect my frail newbie ego.

Realistically? If we're being honest here, you have to live. That's the reality. Nobody shares anything with a day one character. You do your job, you provide somebody interesting for them to be interested in, and you're in. Sometimes, you're not even then, but you will find a story in time to either narrate or take part in.

But day one, needs to become day ten. And short of some enterprising fellow coming along and just dying to spill, you are just not going to learn anything day one. Becoming useful takes time, sometimes. This game never takes off at a run. It starts off slow, and as life goes along, it rolls down the hill faster, until you are a skeleton somewhere.

It's a ride.

[HavokBlue]

I don't know, sometimes I've just said "fuck it, this new PC will probably have a better time if I conjure up something fun for them to do now instead of waiting for them to spar/craft/whatever for a year".

Sometimes it resulted in another dead PC, other times it resulted in a long-lasting PC that I loved interacting with.

[senseofeven]

In Arm it's building relationships with other PCs. Be interesting, fun to interact with. But yes, a day zero PC won't usually be involved in any awesome schemes of wickedness. Showing that you're able to live long, be fun and interesting - while you are skilling up would show that the PC at least have a grasp of how to survive in the world, socially and codedly.

Have a personality for your PC. Only you can make your PCs worthwhile.

Sometimes your PC might even surprise you. In my opinion, you're going to need to invest time in your PC before other PCs would include you in their running plots.

Else just play an indie, they're always fun sometimes. Getting into danger and trying to save your PC. lol.

[Lizzie]

A day zero involvement could start before you even get your character approved.

Here's what I mean:

Your character lived 13 or more years before he showed up out of chargen. He lived virtually, but he was there, all that time. In the past week (RL day), your character experienced *something.* You left the gates to greb for twigs, which you wanted to use for kindling. There was a gortok on the road, blocking your path. You saw small tracks of an animal running away from the tok, but didn't recognize what kind of tracks they are. You ran quickly away from it and right into an almost-dead gurth having been attacked by something and left to die. What? The tok probably, but who knows for sure, it's a mystery!

And then you killed it, giving it a last dying moment to see the blade of your axe fall on its battered head.

You show up in the (whatever bar is popular in Tuluk these days), chest puffed up with pride and buying yourself a well-deserved drink. You tell everyone the story of the tok and the gurth, and how you put the poor suffering gurth out of its misery and deprived the tok of satisfaction.

In other words, create a *believable* story that doesn't involve turning the entire game upside down to track down something ridiculous that doesn't exist - but might entertain others and give your character some depth to his own existence immediately prior to his non-virtual existence.

[Dresan]

I wish we could start characters could start with all starting skills at journeyman or something. I have to admit starting a character from scratch and investing a month and a half of my life so my character doesn't die to a scrab gets pretty old. It doesn't always have to do with just building relationships, capable characters get more plots and can start more plots. Not to mention you can actually focus more on RPing more enjoyable things instead of getting stuck in a schedule or some silly training routine; its that time again, got to go spar, then solo rp doing some boring shit.

Its also leads to a bit of a vicious cycle for me at least. You take the time to train your character and make them capable, however after you've spent all that time training, do you really want to potentially throw it away doing something stupid and dangerous?

[Cutthroat]

My general advice would be to take it slow. Nothing in this game comes quickly without great risk - risk that gets your character killed and forces you to start over. Don't go out of the city or into dangerous situations alone. Get to know people before starting to work for someone so you know who you'll like to work with. Let skills come as a result of what you do with your character, rather than something you pursue with your character in order to be able to do more later. Be interesting so that people will take interest in your PC and offer opportunities. But most importantly, have fun doing what you're doing. If you think something you're trying to do to develop your character is not fun, try something else until you find something that works, even if it means creating an entirely different character with a guild or a location you haven't tried yet.

[valeria]

I love Lizzie's take on it.

My advice is, first, if you have questions about anything at all you should jump in the helper chat.  There might not be anyone there because we aren't on 24/7, but we try to be really helpful.  If you can't find help in the helper chat, come into the new player part of the GDB and ask.  Everyone was new once; I still don't remember myself how to operate the well in Luirs half the time.

Second, if you've played for a little bit and find that you're unhappy with your character, you should store it.  You made your first character after a probably brief review of the docs, with no idea of conditions in game, and very little expectation or experience regarding the game world.  It's not a big deal to go, well that was a nice first draft, but I can do it better.  If you're happy with your character, clearly this doesn't apply.

Third, do stuff.  So you don't want to join the Byn, fine.  Get hired by someone, somewhere, or at least spend a lot of time in the bars.  Armageddon is primarily a social game, and big things usually only happen to people who are social.  If you don't like being social, or you're not comfortable yet, that's fine too.  Go out and explore instead.  Your character might die, but so what?  You can make another one.  In the words of another of my favorite games, "Losing is fun!"  There is no reason to allow yourself to be bored.  Better to have fun and die than suffer a slow death by player disinterest.

[i like me some ham]

Alternatively, if you get bored enough to store, you might be able both to get some more enjoyment out of your character and get your new one a little faster by having a reason to be forced into the wilderness to look for a missing relative or friend. That is if you enjoy exploring, and if not you'll get to learn where the Fuckspeoplesfaces scorpions are, making you just a little less vulnerable as a player. To be honest storing seems to happen faster to me than getting a new app approved, but I think its cyclical. Storing used to be the long one.

Exploring fighter lifestyles as a burglar or pickpocket can be fun, as long as you don't end up minding the fact that you're playing something which isn't equipped for combat. They also fight differently, each guild does, since they're all meant for different types of lifestyles, and that might be fun to explore.

If you lack patience at the moment I recommend staying away from pickpockets as a career, not the guild. They can be mean like a rottweiler later on, but initially they're very much patience-testers. You could be an assassin or burglar who gets their hide up over a RL day or two and then, as a citizen, offers to spy "to do what I can for the city." You might get turned down, but you might not. Basically anything that mentions having hide and listen.

Magickers level up quickly but its not a role for everyone and you should understand how gickers are treated first and what a gicker can expect to do for a living and for company before diving in. You'd probably have to play for a while anyway, maybe a month or two before staff would consider a special app like that.

Red Storm is meant to be a low pc numbers place, the staff designed it that way. Its also difficult to leave and enter alive without skill, luck or what I use, an extremely thorough knowledge of the nearby area gained through a dozen new pc deaths. I probably wouldn't start there.

Wow, fixed an awkward typo.

[seidhr]

I try to have an angle for every PC I create, meaning I know when I create them that I want to try to do x, y, and z -- but honestly, my longest lived PC and most successful one ever was just when I created one with no real expectations and just let the cards fall where they may.  That PC had well over 100 days played and I ended up storing him or he might still be alive right now.  I've also had PCs who I had a plan for succeed in their own right.

I guess what I'm saying is, there's no one tried and true method (at least for me) to achieve success.  We've all had PCs die to dumb things or they just didn't pan out how we wanted.

There's some great advice by others in this thread.  I agree about asking in the Helper chat or here on the GDB in the New Player forum if you're getting frustrated or just have questions.

[solera]

Let skills come as a result of what you do with your character, rather than something you pursue with your character in order to be able to do more later.

All of what Cutthroat said, but this in particular, for me. Mostly.

[QuillDipper]

I try to have an angle for every PC I create, meaning I know when I create them that I want to try to do x, y, and z -- but honestly, my longest lived PC and most successful one ever was just when I created one with no real expectations and just let the cards fall where they may.  That PC had well over 100 days played and I ended up storing him or he might still be alive right now.  I've also had PCs who I had a plan for succeed in their own right.

I guess what I'm saying is, there's no one tried and true method (at least for me) to achieve success.  We've all had PCs die to dumb things or they just didn't pan out how we wanted.

There's some great advice by others in this thread.  I agree about asking in the Helper chat or here on the GDB in the New Player forum if you're getting frustrated or just have questions.

My current PC was just based off of some concept art for their description, but past that I just kind of tossed them out there as a way to get to know the world better. And at 51 days played I'd like to think that was successful.

-

I think that one of the best ways for a new character to sustain longevity is to make connections. This is an RP game after all. I mean, plenty of new PCs talk at the bar a bit, learn names, ect. But the best thing you can do is make a legitimate effort to get to know other PCs, who you can then get some direction for your character from, whether it be through them asking your grebber for a specific material or directing you to a clan that suits your character or even entrusting your expendable newbie self with suicidal but incredibly fun missions. Trust is one of the most important parts of the game, and that one guy who beelines past you in his effort to go sell off his shiny new rocks doesn't get any trust.

[rodic]

Thanks for the advice so far.

This thread Primarily it isn't about getting absorbed into plots right off the bat or learning deadly dark secrets day 1.  I mainly trying to stimulate advice on making zero hour characters more playable, more fun, and interesting.  Some of the suggestions by far have been interesting.

It's just difficult to be that 12 hour played, or 2 day played character, and still know, your PC is still utterly useless in almost every conceivable way, to everyone, including you the player.  It tends make me disinterested to try and find new Thinks, feels, and emotes while you type forage salt for the billionth time, to struggle as a hunter because there are all of like... two things that you can conceivably kill, and both of them are bound to run you into things that will rip you to shreds.  Sure the sense of danger is fun at first, but its frustrating... Your character progress can be easily stunted, or worse killed and then you start from square one... AGAIN.

Some times the code is more of a barrier of Role play then it is a facilitator of role play, it's difficult hurdle to get over, or sometimes you feel like your making compromises ICly because OOC you know nothing is going to work till you manage to get X to the value of Y, and getting X to the value of Y is a perilous mostly fatal journey.  The fact that getting X to Y is so incredibly difficult doesn't help that fact either, you can only enjoy  crushing disappointment and failure for so long, before it wears on you.

Please continue, I just wanted to add what I find to be the most discouraging thing to me a new player. But instead of being a whiner about it, I wanted to hopefully stimulate a conversation, and guide to making Hour zero, especially after you've cycle through a few characters, at bit more enjoyable as oppose to what it often feels like "Oh gawd, here we go again. Forage X, forage X, forage  X, forage X. chase little animal, run from big animal, forage X"

[Barzalene]

It's more fun when it's balanced by some social play. After all, if it was just about skills we wouldn't need a mud. And the skill stuff is more fun when you can rp while doing it.

[i like me some ham]

Due to a loophole in the code that has been mentioned frequently in the past, your combat character will become stronger faster by fighting animals, and sometimes certain animals, then they will sparring people.

No idea why, myself. I've actually not played that many combat characters. But some people simply ignore the Byn/Arm/Legion and start permanently hunting, or stay the recruit/runner year, leave and go hunt forever with their slightly improved skills, focusing on less dangerous beasts and working their way up. I think literally all the Awesome McAwesomes have hunted to at least some degree, mostly because of the difference how you train makes.

It could be just particular animals and not all of them. But if you are genuinely interested perhaps in a hunter type this might be the way to go. You sound like you'd make a good long-lived Awesome McAwesome who does not store but dies to something no one could kill, and it makes sense to spend as little time as possible capable of being three-shotted by gortoks. Asking advice from experienced fighters is also a good idea, might need to grease some palms though.

I don't know if anyone's mentioned race, but race really does make a difference all by itself. I've seen an elf knock out a dwarf by sheer beingfasterness, and dwarves are damn tough, half-giants in motion will make you weep. Prioritize strength. Its unfairly important to combat. Possibly wisdom also, since that will affect how quickly you learn among other things.

[Patuk]

Good as though the advice is, it saddens me a little that we have to tell newbs how botched our combat code can get.

[i like me some ham]

Yeah... I figured, he's gonna learn anyway, better to tell him now before he loses another five characters trying to do the exact same thing.

[Rahnevyn]

Rodic, from reading your comments it seems that you're making a very tight association between the potential enjoyment of your character and your character's skills. Let me challenge you to think a bit differently. Armageddon is a game where coded skills provide backing to the story, but mastering skills isn't necessary to be successful in plenty of roles. The game is intended to focus on roleplay and social interaction, and you have all the tools you need to be successful with those on hour zero. Perhaps try and change things up a bit; play a bard, a gossip, a traveling trader, a rumormonger... (I could name several other ideas but you said you didn't want to be restricted by clans). As someone told me when I first started playing, the only skill a character needs to be successful in this game is sirihish. And it's absolutely true.

Of course we all want to play a buff combat PC, or a master of something, at some point in our careers. My advice there is just to understand progress in Armageddon should be measured in terms of days, not hours. This is true for social progression, skill progression, and financial progression. You can definitely play certain types of PCs for more instant gratification, but many goals are going to require patience. Risky, arcade-style play is going to get you killed far more frequently than playing more conservatively will. I'd examine your goals and plans for your characters yourself, and ask what you're looking to achieve. Perhaps set some short-term and long-term goals both, in recognition that tougher goals are going to take longer to accomplish.

[RogueGunslinger]

Thanks for the advice so far.

This thread Primarily it isn't about getting absorbed into plots right off the bat or learning deadly dark secrets day 1.  I mainly trying to stimulate advice on making zero hour characters more playable, more fun, and interesting.  Some of the suggestions by far have been interesting.

It's just difficult to be that 12 hour played, or 2 day played character, and still know, your PC is still utterly useless in almost every conceivable way, to everyone, including you the player.  It tends make me disinterested to try and find new Thinks, feels, and emotes while you type forage salt for the billionth time, to struggle as a hunter because there are all of like... two things that you can conceivably kill, and both of them are bound to run you into things that will rip you to shreds.  Sure the sense of danger is fun at first, but its frustrating... Your character progress can be easily stunted, or worse killed and then you start from square one... AGAIN.

Some times the code is more of a barrier of Role play then it is a facilitator of role play, it's difficult hurdle to get over, or sometimes you feel like your making compromises ICly because OOC you know nothing is going to work till you manage to get X to the value of Y, and getting X to the value of Y is a perilous mostly fatal journey.  The fact that getting X to Y is so incredibly difficult doesn't help that fact either, you can only enjoy  crushing disappointment and failure for so long, before it wears on you.

Please continue, I just wanted to add what I find to be the most discouraging thing to me a new player. But instead of being a whiner about it, I wanted to hopefully stimulate a conversation, and guide to making Hour zero, especially after you've cycle through a few characters, at bit more enjoyable as oppose to what it often feels like "Oh gawd, here we go again. Forage X, forage X, forage  X, forage X. chase little animal, run from big animal, forage X"

There's a lot of good advice here. But a lot of it tends to be of the "Roleplay a real character and find enjoyment in finding new interesting ways to play your character" sort. Which is sort of separate from your questions about being useful and getting involved.

Sounds like you should give playing in the north a try if you want to do the ranger thing and have it be fairly easy slope of learning, at the very least have your character willing to travel. The south is very harsh on indie rangers. Not impossible, but definitely a slower start that means you probably want to spend a year in the Byn first, or some time up north first where you can get the coins for gear to keep you alive, and slowly skill up in other ways.

All Rangers are or should be Merchants on the side. The ease of travel just makes it too easy not to. With a war going on I doubt the amount of people selling wood in the south or obsidian in the north is going to be many, and if you can find yourself doing that you'll get rich pretty fast.

Look for other ranger types to tell you where poisons, cures, raw materials like wood and obsidian and glass are. These things are ALWAYS needed by someone. And generally if their players are smart they will pay a lot for these items, because people capable of going out and getting them tend to be few and far between. While doing your "hunting/gathering" keep practicing your archery with a slingshot and foraged stones, keep training your listen in taverns in between. But most importantly just live. Live and survive and you will slowly get all the tools you need to be the kind of character you want. It takes time a patience, but is certainly doable.

You character will quickly become useful to multiple players, and while you might not be taking down drov beetles and bahamets for their shells and chitin, you will find yourself slowly progressing and also getting the interaction you want. You will be useful due to knowing where things are that most clanned folks simply can't go get. And you will eventually become deadly, because Archery is NOT to be fucked with.

[seidhr]

I would also second what Rahnevyn has recommended, and say that my advice for everyone is to play your character as a person first and a <guild> second.  This holds true whether you are the prototypical half-elf indie ranger who has to rely on hunting/gathering to make ends meet or whether you're an aide to <powerful person> who is actually a secret void elementalist.

There's nothing wrong with going out and trying to get better at your coded skills, as long as you are being realistic about how you approach it.  However, being a solo indie wilderness character is -really- difficult and most of them die early.  (Not that I'd know from personal experience or anything.  *cough*)  Making a few in-game buddies who can help you out, whether you share a clan or just a few beers at the Gaj, can make all the difference in surviving those first few days of play.

[Norcal]

For a brand new player and their first PC, the options are very limited. However if you have played a few PCs, have some decent rp skills and think you can handle sticking to the docs, I would recommend a human tribal.

No karma needed, and the Pah is a great place to bring up a ranger/merchant type. Game to hunt for every skill level, lots of interesting inter-tribe dynamics to play with and sometimes a few clanmates. It can be a lot of solo time, but if you are just a bit careful, you can have a long-lived PC and end up in some interesting city-based plots.

Some people gripe about d-elves PKing all the newb tribals, and I have seen it happen, but if you make an effort that can also be avoided. A great place to develop your PC from every angle!

[Jingo]

Just don't call it the "pah". Every time a non-elf says that I wanna shoot myself.

[Refugee]

Just don't call it the "pah". Every time a non-elf says that I wanna shoot myself.

What?!  It's what I've always heard it called by everyone.  What should we use?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Tablelands, probably.

That said, 'the Pah' has been popularized IC for some fity or more IC years by the elves and those who had to deal with them, enough so that I don't find it out of place in civilized society.

[senseofeven]

Tablelaaaaands!

[Italis]

Just to go full pedant mode, technically only Allundean speakers would call it "the Pah". Calling it that doesn't make any sense in Sirihish, and given the connotations, is actually probably fairly insulting coming from a roundear.  "Pah" also has a number of different uses depending on context - elves who aren't being lazy or prefer to avoid ambiguity would call it the Abi'li Pah.

Everyone else who isn't a 'necker knows it as "the tablelands".

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Ah, well. I stand corrected. Don't call it the Pah.

[solera]

 Sure the sense of danger is fun at first, but its frustrating... Your character progress can be easily stunted, or worse killed and then you start from square one... AGAIN.

It's good to read your comments, Rodic, and the discussion it stimulates. 
As for  this fun sense of danger , outside the walls of  Allanak is dangerous, that is why they built the walls. Sane people don't hunt here  alone.  Fact.
(sane=vpc )

[RogueGunslinger]

Ah, well. I stand corrected. Don't call it the Pah.

All it takes is one elf-to-human translation of the word in-game for it to become slang, and after a while,  an accepted nickname/psuedonym outside of elven races. It's not like that would never happen, regardless of it being offensive to elves.

Likely the name spreading from elves to humans in-game is part of how it became popular as "the Pah" in the first place.

[Norcal]

Just don't call it the "pah". Every time a non-elf says that I wanna shoot myself.

Don't let me stop you.  The Pah it stays. 

Aaaaannnnd..to get this thread back on track..it's a great place for a relative newcomer to play no matter what you call it.