Half-giant hitpoints

[Eyeball]

I recommend that these be increased. After all, these are humanoids who weigh ten times as much as a typical human being in the game. It should take proportionate nicks, cuts and slashes to kill them.

[RogueGunslinger]

They're already pretty high, but I can't see why making them higher would hurt.

Then again an arrow to the eye, or a sword to the heart is going to kill anything.

I'm on the fence.

[X-D]

Point being RGS...it is much harder to hit the heart or get past all that thick bone, even behind the eye to get to the brain. That is what HP shows. Got a cord and a half sword...well, gonna take a while to hack your way to the heart on a being which has his heart buried 2.5 cords in under HG thick bones and HG armor,,,that is all HP means anyway...reaches 0 Near fatal blows, does not matter if it is an arrow to the eye or twenty to the knee.

Always did seem a bit odd to me that HG size has never been represented in HP. Still, I am on the fence as well, but only because I have played enough HGs to know that even as they are, once they have even a tiny bit of skill, taking one down is NOT easy.
All it takes is one lucky blow from a 5 day HG and your 50 day warrior...ANY other race is no more.

In closing, Would it be cool if they had about 1/3 more HP...yes...do they actually NEED it...Nah.

[BleakOne]

XD and RGS summed it up pretty well.

It would make sense, and be a neat change, but it isn't quite needed at the moment.

[Harmless]

after the things I've seen even average HGs do I agree with X-D. They don't need it.

[Molten Heart]

after the things I've seen even average HGs do I agree with X-D. They don't need it.

I'm confused.

In closing, Would it be cool if they had about 1/3 more HP...yes...do they actually NEED it...Nah.

[RogueGunslinger]

They don't need it.

I'm confused.

do they actually NEED it...Nah.

Let me help.

[Molten Heart]

They don't need it.

I'm confused.

do they actually NEED it...Nah.

Let me help.

Thanks for your help.

[X-D]

Now, what I think HG's DO need.

commands that do not invoke crime code that really remind people of the size. Emotes just do not cut it.

I mean, when a normal human stands before a HG...you know what he is looking at? Crotch...Yup, big old HG crotch. Two legs coming up in a V, each of them bigger then the human.

Even a tall elf is barely looking at belly button. And a dwarf is having a nice talk with a knee.

I want things like...Backhand, Backhand Amos, Amos gets knocked ass over tincups, maybe even out of the room, min stun damage, can only be used every 60 seconds, no crime code, no delay on amos getting back up...making it mostly useless in combat
Warhammer style falling giant..call it, off the third turnbuckle...HG simply falls over causing anybody smaller then him to fall or be reeled...no crime code..

Stomp,  A 2000lbs+ creature stomps the ground to make a point...well, everybody should know it...sometimes even if they are not in the same room.

The ability to use just about anything as a weapon....HG Aaargh picks up a log...no big deal, Aaargh wields log in both hands....Sort of a big deal...couch, chair, corpse.

Hell, HG's should create shade...not for themselves of course, but maybe a couple humans.

Just part of my HG wish list.

[Kaineus]

Half giant hitpoints are fine, but they need to be slower in my opinion.

Think of modern day elephants or mammoths; mammoths had huge tusks, but went extinct with humans using only stone-age weapons. Don't you think it'd be fair, perhaps, if half-giants were realistically more slow/clumsy as the mammoths were? For huge creatures to have a lot of hit points makes sense -- you probably had to stick a shit ton of spears into a mammoth / chase it off a cliff before it died. Half-giants are humongous creatures, who in most fights has a bunch of smaller things attacking about its legs. Imagine having to stoop over to fight these things with your expansive arm span, and being sub-humanly stupid to boot.

I once played a dwarf with terrible agility. Despite being a warrior the dwarf was comically bad in any fight. Meanwhile my giants would be nimble death machines by comparison, even with similar stat order, and that never felt fair.

The only reason I've been tolerant of half-giants as they are now is that it's reminiscent of DnD, and I like the old school DnD quality this game sometimes has.

[Is Friday]

Let's not kid ourselves to think that any stat changes for HGs would be for "world realism". Lots of huge creatures move quickly because they have great anaerobic capabilities.

[Kaineus]

Let's not kid ourselves to think that any stat changes for HGs would be for "world realism". Lots of huge creatures move quickly because they have great anaerobic capabilities.

Name a fifteen foot tall/long creature that is ton heavy one that moves quickly? The dinosaurs in that Jurassic Park, maybe? Some people argue that dinosaurs were probably slow. Usually aligators move in quick bursts of energy, and then just fucking crawl. Look at entirely terrestrial large lizards like komodo dragons. They're so fucking slow that they leave their victims to fester to death.

Sure, maybe you can name an example -- in the ocean.

[MeTekillot]

Rhinos.

[Is Friday]

A gorilla can reach speeds of 20 mph to 25 mph. In comparison, Usain Bolt's record in the 100-meter dash roughly translates into 23 mph (Bolt reaches peak speeds of around 27 mph—but still).So, even if you were Usain Bolt, there's a good chance you're not outrunning a gorilla, and this assumes the fight takes place on a race track (where a human can really sprint) and not in a forest, where running speed isn't much of an issue. So now, you've got a gorilla who most likely can catch up to all but the most elite sprinters on the planet. Conclusion: You're not outrunning the gorilla.

p.s. gorillas are 800lbs and not as tall as a HG.

p.p.s. It's a fantasy game. Their slowness is reflected in their painfully low agility.

[Kaineus]

All I know is that they don't need anything more than they already have. If they were to get more HP, it would only be fair to take something away -- not in the name of 'balancing' but again for realism. Hiding half-giants is also a ridiculous concept . Maybe don't allow them to play some rogue guilds like c-elves can't play rangers. Maybe allow them to hide but not to sneak.

[X-D]

HG max height is only close to 13 feet. And there are MANY animals in that size range that move VERY fast, Grizzly, polar bear, hippo, rhino, many buffalo, moose. Elephant...Shit, None of these could you dodge if they really wanted you.

[Reiloth]

None of these could you dodge if they really wanted you.

That was poetry X-D. You bard.

[BleakOne]

I think the fast movement is just representative of their size. With legs longer than many people, they can take far fewer steps to cover the same distance. It would be neat if they slowed down a lot while changing direction or something, but that seems rather complex code-wise for such a small change.

Totally agree about sneaking and hiding. Without really good RP reason (such as maybe a HG covering over himself with sand to look like a dune... or something) a HG couldn't hide very well nor blend into a crowd. There's no padding thick enough to make their steps silent either.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

What I'd like to see:

• Double their HP.
• Take away their ability to use normal one handed weapons, and normal bows.
• Allow them to use normal two-handed weapons in one hand, but not two. Force them to only be able to use giant-sized bows.
• Don't take away their ability to sneak, but give them a massive negative to doing it.

[X-D]

Totally agree about sneaking and hiding. Without really good RP reason (such as maybe a HG covering over himself with sand to look like a dune... or something) a HG couldn't hide very well nor blend into a crowd. There's no padding thick enough to make their steps silent either.

Though I will agree with the point on city stealth...somewhat....I have to totally disagree on wilderness.

As a hunter IRL...you would be totally amazed at how easily many, if not most large animals can remain un-noticed, while holding still or even moving. And even animals I have never hunted, watch a documentary on forest elephants some time, something several times larger then a HG, and yet they can be VERY hard to find even when you are basically right next to them.

As to city stealth...Well, as has been mentioned many times in the past on the GDB, that is the art of remaining un-noticed...I can see even a HG managing it in public, on the street in a bar, anyplace where there are VNPCs. Now, in an apartment, hallway etc...No...not at all.

Edit for 7DV
Double? Not saying I am against it, but Eesh.

Weapons, I could get behind, but more weapons would need be made and HG would need the ability to use just about any large item as a makeshift weapon.

Sneak...As I say above, I bon't believe they need any negs to wilderness other then they might already get for certain things that I will not talk about on the GDB...City...sure.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Double, absolutely. I don't like the fact that a good giant only has about 100 hp more than a good dwarf. They currently have ~2x the HP of a human, but are much, much larger. Much larger. I'd be just fine with a normal HG veering between 3-400 HP, depending on their endurance stat and size.

As for weapons, why should there be more? Unless someone designs them for a giant, weapons and armor are made for humans and human sized folks. Giants should have a hard time finding stuff to fit them - that I have no problem with. But I wouldn't mind seeing giants get a weapon crafting skill designed just for them, to turn logs and stones and such into weapons. That would be fine.

[X-D]

Really? Every single militia for every human settlement and town uses HGs, the three open merchant houses use HGs and they all have for...well, all of known history...you are saying that they only want the HGs to be using some human hand me down weapons? If anything that is one of the major unrealistic things in game right now.  To be realistic, you would want your walking tanks to be just that, Scary ass walking tanks...they would have some of the best in the  heavy armor and weapon area, and each group, be they militia, House guard, what have you, would have own styles.

And it is worse on armor, since there is no (to my knowledge) HG specific armor...and this makes no sense to  me...thousands of years of using these things as shock troops etc and they have to wear hand me down human leather or something? Sheesh.

[HavokBlue]

you guys can go mastercraft half-giant armor if you want

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Now, Havok ... you know better.

Here's the dig as far as I am concerned. Stock DIKU has race only flags, I know it does. So these need to be used in Armageddon, assuming the code still has them. Giants should only be able to use HG_wear items. Other races should not be able to use HG sized things. Not even muls, or dwarves.

You line up the HG flagging issue, and put out a call for a couple of kits of basic armors and weapons for HGs, and get this show on the road.

[X-D]

Eh, 7dv beat me too it.

But yes, that is an issue...as it stands now, code wise, you can get anything resized to anything,,,that would need be changed. Some things need not even be resized...I have seen humans wearing items that even say in the Mdesc, "This item is for HG's, It is bigger and taller then the guy wearing it" Yet somehow he still manages to strap it to his back and walk around without it dragging the ground.  I have seen dwarves WIELDING Weapons bigger then them. And I don't just mean like a 7 foot long spear, But like a club that says it is about as big as a dwarf.

Course people only complain when the HG is wielding a 4 inch long knife or something.

[HavokBlue]

I don't want to be that guy and having experienced the misery of trying to get items made for specific purposes that can't really be solved by ordering a mastercraft I think it would be super cool if staff put out a submission call for half-giant items.

With that in mind, in lieu of any submission call, this is the sort of thing you can work on in-game until the if/when from the imms.

And with that in mind, I wonder if there are any mastercrafts designed for half-giants floating around in the DB that nobody remembers how to make.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Ideally, weapons would be created with height and str suggestions in mind anyway.

Even simply putting a ideal user size on weapons and allowing deviations in either direction by a size or two  or three would solve most of these problems. Putting a size on weapons AND taking strength into account would be even greater. And for things like darts and throwing knives, size 0 means everyone can use it.

IE:

sword sized 6

giant can't use it
elf, breed, and human can use it normally
dwarf can use it two handed
halfling can't use it

[Kryos]

I've been chewing on this thought a bit, and, I think I'd actually support about a 20-30% bump in their base HP values.  The reason I say this is experiencing first hand a number of conflicts with extremely dangerous targets, either behind the wheel of a HG, or near them in action.

Things that hit hard, tend to be capable of 1 shotting not only the lesser health races, but half giants as well.  In short, the scaling of combat does falter as you compare humans to say, a tembo (a dangerous medium sized encounter), and a HG to say as a common example, a mekillot.  The former having some room for forgiveness if you're hit, realize how bad that is, and still possess a chance to take flight or chose another option of engagement.  With HGs and "big game", that first hit can be the end of the PC.  And I'm purposefully not talking about more uncommon challenges that people should have the joy of discovering themselves.

The ramifications of this in a player versus player environment wouldn't change the 'feel' much.  When a small type racial is attacking a HG, they're already playing the war of attrition game and knowing that 2-3 swings coming back their way would be the end of it, or even 1 lucky one.

Of course, this changes a bit if you veer from 'average' endurance on a HG to the higher ranges.  The higher ranges have about the right feel, I think.  So perhaps just adjusting the scaler so that what is now average is represented instead by what is now good to very good.

[roughneck]

I've been chewing on this thought a bit, and, I think I'd actually support about a 20-30% bump in their base HP values.  The reason I say this is experiencing first hand a number of conflicts with extremely dangerous targets, either behind the wheel of a HG, or near them in action.

Things that hit hard, tend to be capable of 1 shotting not only the lesser health races, but half giants as well.  In short, the scaling of combat does falter as you compare humans to say, a tembo (a dangerous medium sized encounter), and a HG to say as a common example, a mekillot.  The former having some room for forgiveness if you're hit, realize how bad that is, and still possess a chance to take flight or chose another option of engagement.  With HGs and "big game", that first hit can be the end of the PC.  And I'm purposefully not talking about more uncommon challenges that people should have the joy of discovering themselves.

The ramifications of this in a player versus player environment wouldn't change the 'feel' much.  When a small type racial is attacking a HG, they're already playing the war of attrition game and knowing that 2-3 swings coming back their way would be the end of it, or even 1 lucky one.

Of course, this changes a bit if you veer from 'average' endurance on a HG to the higher ranges.  The higher ranges have about the right feel, I think.  So perhaps just adjusting the scaler so that what is now average is represented instead by what is now good to very good.

I agree with this.

[Skeeter]

I think if you were to increase their HP, you'd have to cripple their agility more to compensate it.

I've seen HG's just kinda stand there, and somehow dodge every hit... Realistically, they're not going to be able to dodge even a novice users blows. A good supplement for their now even worse agility could be a skill added specifically for their race, a counter-attack ability since they're unable to catch up to most targets, they'd wait to weather a blow and THEN go for the guy, when he/she is in-close with them.

More HP would make sense, to accomodate it, but just on its own? Don't think so, though I do completely NOT understand how Mul's are supposed to be somehow stronger than HG's? -- THAT doesn't make sense to me.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Muls are not stronger than giants.

[Cale_Knight]

I don't think half-giants need more total hitpoints, but I think it would be neat if they had a natural damage reduction that only kicks in when they take damage beyond a certain threshold (say, 50 damage).

This would allow HGs to absorb hits from bigger creatures, but wouldn't change their dynamic against normal-sized PCs and whatnot.

[CodeMaster]

I guess a half-giant is the biggest 'thing' a player can be.  I've never played one (but have immensely enjoyed the roleplay of some of them - here's looking at you, Treethoughts), of course -- so feel free to ignore this dweeb.  But if you read the help file for muls, it contains a little dig at half-giants:

Most of the height and cunning of their human ancestry is preserved as well--from a purely scientific point of view, a much better product than half-giants.

One way to interpret this is, vis-a-vis the other races in Zalanthas (incl. true, sea-of-silt giants), half-giants are kind of garbage.  Compared to the PC population, they're the big guys (maybe this is well-reflected in their current HP levels?).  But that's like being the big fish in a small pond.  Compared to many of the other unstoppable monsters that roam Zalanthas, they're minnows.  It kind of makes sense to me that they can get blipped by a Gaj just like the rest of us.

[racurtne]

What this means is that Half-giants are completely incapable of any sort of deception, as stated in the help-files. They are simply unable to lie intentionally. This would also mean that they wouldn't be able to perform any kind of feints in combat.  Also, the height thing is that half-giants are much -closer- to humans in terms of height than they are to the truly massive silt-giants. They're a great big magical 'meh'. They didn't get the desired brains of the humans, and they didn't keep most of the truly massive strength and height of the silt-giants. A near-silt-giant sized intelligent being would be the ideal, and half-giants fall far short. Muls are a superior product, packing dwarven strength onto a near human-sized body (stronger than either), and keeping near human-like intelligence and cunning.

[CodeMaster]

What this means is that Half-giants are completely incapable of any sort of deception, as stated in the help-files. They are simply unable to lie intentionally. This would also mean that they wouldn't be able to perform any kind of feints in combat.  Also, the height thing is that half-giants are much -closer- to humans in terms of height than they are to the truly massive silt-giants. They're a great big magical 'meh'. They didn't get the desired brains of the humans, and they didn't keep most of the truly massive strength and height of the silt-giants. A near-silt-giant sized intelligent being would be the ideal, and half-giants fall far short. Muls are a superior product, packing dwarven strength onto a near human-sized body (stronger than either), and keeping near human-like intelligence and cunning.

Yeah, that's what I meant to say.  they are a meh (but so are we all)

[Harmless]

Whoa, who the hell would want a silt giant sized humanoid with human intelligence? That is fucking scary.

Half giants are great, easy to control, easier to discriminate against, they're a vital member of the hierarchy. A great success, their only weakness is that they can all pretty much do what every other half giant can do, sort of, so they never get to be speshal. Waah. I have seen me many a half giant emo, let me tell you. Must be a fun ass race to play