Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion

[Nyr]

Over / Under UnderTuluk gets put back in, in some fashion?

Am I understanding that the warrens will be changed a bit in a different update?

To the first:  we haven't mentioned anything like that.
To the second:  all that I've said is that that would be a separate project.

[slvrmoontiger]

Speaking of food and water, I'm not sure if they post talking about the changes mentioned this... But I know that the Firestorm has a place to cook and if that gets taken away is something going to be available for places to cook or is everyone just going to sit around the Sanctuary eating fruits and raw meat?

If your House doesn't offer one, I can think of two other firepits that will still be in the updated map and are available to anyone.

YOU SHALL PREVAIL.

Never mind I just re-read the staff announcement post and there's a cooking area off the middle-class tavern.

Where are the various apartment buildings going to be located... I mean the non-Warren's ones in particular... Like currently there are two south of the Tooth and one off from Dark Moon Road. From what this looks like is Dark Moon is going to be shortened or warped in some manner. Any sort of visualization for stuff like this would be helpful.

There's only one apartment building that will have to be moved.  We'll find a good spot for it.

How long of a maintenance window are we looking at for Monday May 19? It will probably take longer than an hour for code hashing as well as walkthrough to make sure nothing is broken. Just wondering how long though.

This is why we have test ports.  We've already been testing the script to move stuff.  Honestly, from what I understand, we can do all of the back-end work before the date arrives and then do a maintenance reboot to put it in live.

Thank you for the response, Nyr. I was also wondering if any of the changes will affect pieces of art and if those will just go away or be moved to a new home? After all Tuluk is about art.

[slvrmoontiger]

And why does the Tooth still have brawling in a city that abhors public displays of violence?  I've never understood that one.

God forbid a dive bar has a bar fight.

Brawling code is just that CODE. Just because you can do it doesn't always mean you should or legally can... And like Nyr said the Tooth is a seedy bar and has always been such, full of rough and tough people in it. Hunters, Warren's Rats, etc cause for high emotions at times.

[Nyr]

I'm not too happy about the changes. I will mean completely re-learning Tuluk, which will take a bit of time.

The Sanctuary is still in the same spot, generally speaking.  Friel's still has the same stuff in it.  The Tribal Market still has the same stuff in it.  Poet's Circle.  Warrens.  RSC gets changed somewhat.  The Noble Quarter is still southeast of RSC.  The Heart is still north of the noble quarter.  The Heart is still south of Poet's Circle.

The proportions are slightly different.  The unnecessary connective tissue will be excised.  The cool stuff that deserves to be linked will still be linked.

I've grown accustomed to here's how far and what direction I need to walk in to get from here to there. Now I'm going to have to re-learn it and that might take more time than just walking the distance.

You've grown accustomed to lengthy spamwalking.  You'll be okay.

Comments and feedback seem mostly positive, which holds promise. I hope this change brings in new players to Tuluk because just shortening up the distances between people isn't going to fix the problem of seeing 50 some odd players logged in besides myself and my character walks the stretch between public areas and only finds 3 other PCs to RP with.

Actually, there's fair likelihood that the new tavern location being a starting location and also being central to most of the city-state would actually cause more new players that point to the city to run into players, in general.  This, at least, was one major goal here:  helping out players both new and old.  The goal isn't to bring new players to Tuluk, it is to assist any players that choose to play there.

The only fix for that is more players to play Tuluk. If there population isn't there no matter how many shrinking of streets you do isn't going to change the fact that the populations ISN'T there. Time will only tell. I'm still looking forward to knowing where essential buildings are going to be like apartments and how to get to and from them to other places. As far as the population increasing only time will tell if this causes that to happen. I'm hoping it does.

Continual complaining about this isn't going to do anything, and also, increasing the playerbase in Tuluk isn't even the stated goal of this project.  People play where they want to play.  If anything, the sideways complaints about sponsored roles in Tuluk and the frequent complaints about the playerbase/lack thereof in Tuluk might well make people less likely to want to play there--because who wants to play around someone that complains about what they do or don't do?

I get that you have an issue with this but it has jack all to do with the remapping.

[Nyr]

Thank you for the response, Nyr. I was also wondering if any of the changes will affect pieces of art and if those will just go away or be moved to a new home? After all Tuluk is about art.

Maybe.  Or probably not.  That's a pretty vague question.

[slvrmoontiger]

Thank you for the response, Nyr. I was also wondering if any of the changes will affect pieces of art and if those will just go away or be moved to a new home? After all Tuluk is about art.

Maybe.  Or probably not.  That's a pretty vague question.

I was trying not to go too in dept with IC information... From the looks of the restructuring, Dark Moon is pretty much going to disappear or most of it will. There's art work along Dark Moon that was recently made (Okay recently is subjective I suppose, but still its within the last RL year) Was wondering if that was going away as well. The whole idea of a possible shift of apartments and other things is frightening. I suppose I'll make sure my character is sleeping in their place before logging out on the 18th.

[LittleLady]

I haven't been playing for very long, and as a new player, I can say that the size of Tuluk as it was, was very intimidating. It took a very long time, and the implementation of the directions command for me to really learn my way around.

I think the changes talked about will be a benefit to Tuluk. I think that you'll find it will be easier to adjust and relearn than some people think. I know that I'm looking forward to the decrease in time it takes to get everywhere. I think one of the biggest problems new people have is missing out on RP because by the time you got to wherever you were going, it was time to turn around and head back. In my opinion, I think streamlining the city will help to attract new players and returning players to Tuluk.

Besides, even if the city is smaller, the surrounding area is still huge and holds a lot to explore.

Thanks for the work on this admins. I'm looking forward to seeing what the new changes hold, and how they work out.

[bracken]

The Red Sun Commons will be the heart of the town.  Go north to get to your shops and the tribal market.  Go south to get to the Warrens.  And right down the north road, you'll see the Pyramid.  All roads lead to Utep, praise his name. 

In that sense the new bar is fairly central on the map. But in not so much in centre of PC population flow . One thing I like about the Pub on an ooc level is that it's handy to the shops, especially for new players out of chargen.  The Gaj always seems so far from the Bazaar, (and even further from  the Byn)
The shuffling of the Circle and the Tribal market looks great from an ooc perspective.

[Old Kank]

PCs fought and died for the Firestorm.  And the Old Quarter?  Let's not even talk about the Old Quarter.  The best part about Tuluk was its history.

PCs found and died for the Battle of Tyn Dashra and all they got was a volcanic caldera.

There's a pretty big distinction between the two, and you know it.  The game's history and players' ability to affect change are what separate ArmageddonMUD from any other hack and slash MUD, MMO, JRPG, or whatever.  Players fought and died for the Battle of Tyn Dashra.  They lost.  Sucks for them, but they lost because they were outgunned, not because of corporate restructuring.  If the staff had come out and said, "Hey guys, we're consolidating the playerbase.  The gypsies are now closed, and Tyn Dashra has been replaced with a volcano," I would have been pretty disappointed with that, too. 

If this IC closure of the Firestorm is the end result of months of plotting and scheming, and Zombie Aldebrand is going to rise from his grave to firebomb the place tomorrow, then... whoops.  My bad.  But I'd be really surprised that you announced its closure beforehand if that were the case.  As it is, it feels like a pretty soulless move.

And why does the Tooth still have brawling in a city that abhors public displays of violence?  I've never understood that one.

God forbid a dive bar has a bar fight.

But... but... Muk Utep is revered as a god throughout the Gol Krathu!  And in RPT #17 of 2006, Utep came forth to the people of Tuluk and did forbid violence in all forms in his city.  The only people who would go against Utep would be filthy heathens and non-citizens, who the Tuluki templarate would have a vested interest in quietly rounding up and re-educating!  And...!  And!  Eh, screw it.  I haven't even played in Tuluk in years.  I'm just going to keep playing in Allanak where the setting still matters!  Where elementalists are still called clerics, people still ride horses, Kadius sells steel-tipped boots, and you can buy sandwiches in the Rogues Dir- er, I mean, you can still buy felafels in the Traders - shit.  I mean, I'm just going to go hang out in the Bard's Barrel.   Oh goddamnit.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

... It gets wrecked, it gets ruins, great--and then what do you do with those ruins?  Expand more stuff into them, replace them with new nice stuff that is also pretty far from the city center?  Turning the Old Quarter (ostensibly a "ruin") into "virtual space that has either been reclaimed or made virtual" works fine for now.

Might I suggest that you reduce the size of the ruins as well, and lock it behind a gate so that for the everyday citizen, it is pretty much a none city, but for the sake of RPTS or templars or nobles that might want to wander them, it is there, and it exists. I know that there are a lot of rooms even in the ruins that had no real function or relevance, but there were things like the crumbling statue and the bridge and the altar/shrine thing, that did have function and could be used, by the right person, as a roleplay point of interest. (Note: I might be getting some of these landmarks wrong, because it's been RL years since I was in the ruins, but I remember there being at least three things I found interesting while walking through the ruins.)

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

But... but... Muk Utep is revered as a god throughout the Gol Krathu!  And in RPT #17 of 2006, Utep came forth to the people of Tuluk and did forbid violence in all forms in his city.  The only people who would go against Utep would be filthy heathens and non-citizens, who the Tuluki templarate would have a vested interest in quietly rounding up and re-educating!  And...!  And!  Eh, screw it.  I haven't even played in Tuluk in years.  I'm just going to keep playing in Allanak where the setting still matters!  Where elementalists are still called clerics, people still ride horses, Kadius sells steel-tipped boots, and you can buy sandwiches in the Rogues Dir- er, I mean, you can still buy felafels in the Traders - shit.  I mean, I'm just going to go hang out in the Bard's Barrel.   Oh goddamnit.

Ok. This shit is funny as fuck.

[ShaLeah]

But... but... Muk Utep is revered as a god throughout the Gol Krathu!  And in RPT #17 of 2006, Utep came forth to the people of Tuluk and did forbid violence in all forms in his city.  The only people who would go against Utep would be filthy heathens and non-citizens, who the Tuluki templarate would have a vested interest in quietly rounding up and re-educating!  And...!  And!  Eh, screw it.  I haven't even played in Tuluk in years.  I'm just going to keep playing in Allanak where the setting still matters!  Where elementalists are still called clerics, people still ride horses, Kadius sells steel-tipped boots, and you can buy sandwiches in the Rogues Dir- er, I mean, you can still buy felafels in the Traders - shit.  I mean, I'm just going to go hang out in the Bard's Barrel.   Oh goddamnit.

Ok. This shit is funny as fuck.

+1

Some of us STILL call it the Bards Barrel. In game.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I know I do.

[solera]

Old Kank, the Pub has had a bit of bad luck the last year or three.

[Delirium]

What about the crater, and the pillar? Is it just suddenly not going to exist?

I hope that you can find a way to sensibly tie together the game's rich history with the need to restructure, rather than sweep details under the rug for the sake of convenience.

[Nyr]

What about the crater, and the pillar? Is it just suddenly not going to exist?

I hope that you can find a way to sensibly tie together the game's rich history with the need to restructure, rather than sweep details under the rug for the sake of convenience.

The cool stuff that deserves to be linked will still be linked.

I'm checking through the staff-side map to confirm things that people are worried about will actually be there and that we've actually already taken that into account.

[Nyr]

We've retained the cemetery and the plaza.  Part of the OQ wipe did mean outright stripping out the rooms surrounding the crater and the pillar.  However, both can still be referenced in what we are planning to do, so I'll make a note to add that to the plans and review that as we move forward.  If there are any other relevant historical pieces that we have missed in some way, we can also make sure those are present in a way that allows them to exist without creating tons of filler/clutter.

PCs fought and died for the Firestorm.  And the Old Quarter?  Let's not even talk about the Old Quarter.  The best part about Tuluk was its history.

PCs found and died for the Battle of Tyn Dashra and all they got was a volcanic caldera.

There's a pretty big distinction between the two, and you know it.

You're right.  One was big enough and important enough to back up with a major plot that drove tons of other things both IC and OOC, and one is small enough (but noteworthy enough) to back up with a minor plot that will help drive one or two things.  Since there's some mapping/tavern changes going on anyway, we're letting people know some of the details in advance.  As it is something people care about, they get their chance to vent here.  That's what you're doing and it is what others are doing as well.

[HavokBlue]

I don't care a whole bunch either way because I generally avoid playing in Tuluk, but is there a particular OOC reason the Firestorm is being canned and replaced with a new tavern? If this was answered previously in the thread, disregard me. I haven't gone through all 5 pages yet.

[Tiernan]

I'll honest and say that I don't think we've missed anything.    We virtualized a few things which made sense to do so, but I want to firmly emphasize that we're not using the magick retcon wand and saying it never happened or never existed.

Some points to ponder:

• The artwork on Dark Moon Road is preserved.
• The crater, pillar and surrounds were virtualized, much like Utep's Pyramid.  It's still there folks, even if no PC ever walks around in it. It's on tap to be fully described as being there, a place you can stop and look upon its gaping maw and all, just not walk about in.
• The warehouses in the OQ are preserved, with new road connections.
• The uber-swanky apartement building will be moved, we're trying to determine the best fit for it in terms of where those high-class suites should go.
• The arena still exists, although we're changing it to a direct off-road link instead of an enterable object.
• Assorted works of art, merchant NPCs and other notable NPC personalities in areas which are flagged for removal will be redistributed.

We posted in advance to ask for feedback, and we're listening.  We'll consider your concerns and make any appropriate adjustments that we feel fit in with what and how we are designing and administering the world.   

End Tiernan the staffer

Start Tiernan the individual

As a personal observation, it's hard for me to keep an open mind while sifting through all the vitriol and snark.  This is a project 3 months in the making, soaking up a lot of my time and effort. Right now I'm feeling that if being open and transparent means having to deal with this every time, then perhaps it's time to do what I feel is best for the game and keep my communications solely among staff.   At least that way I can blissfully ignore the vitriolic angst on the GDB until it fades away.   I'd rather not, as I believe that our community has plenty of good ideas on how to improve the game.  But hey, since I'm being open about my feelings, that's my current mood.  The internet is full of trolls, I get it, I am hoping our community is different.

[KankWhisperer]

Tiernan, we all have to deal with the GDB. It's not all that great as a powerless player either.

To me it seems like the upcoming closing of the Firestorm led to IC events and IC events did not lead up to the closing of the Firestorm.
I don't understand why the Firestorm can't be the mid-tier tavern. Why does the mid-tier tavern have to be in the Commons?

[Barzalene]

I apologize if my responses count among those that felt unduly sharp.

While I think it's clear that my position aligns with kankwhisperer in this matter, rather than staff, I don't think disagreement needs to be acrimonious, or in this forum, personal. It was not my intention to be unpleasant.

And I promise, I'm not really coming over to anyone's house to beat anyone up.

[Is Friday]

On that note: I think some players are getting too possessive of the IG content. Tribes have been destroyed, cities/villages wiped out of game, and plenty of crafts were never crafted again (oh the horror!)

I wonder, though: Is there a timeline or general idea on when/how the inactive Houses might be re-opened? Or has this just not been looked at since then? I'm sure it's at the bottom of a list, somewhere.....

[BleakOne]

It's sort of a hobby for a lot of the jaded oldbies to feel persecuted by staff no matter what is going on. I tend to ignore it, to be honest. If this didn't happen, they'd complain about stagnation and Tuluk being too big, if it does happen, it's scary-bad change and Tuluk is too shrunken.

I can't see anything remotely bad in the coming change. I'd advise you have the new bar sell milk, however, as I think the Firestorm was the only place to get it in Tuluk. 

[Delirium]

I think this is a good change. I disagree with some of the ways it's being implemented but I can see the logic behind it.

I'm glad to hear that historical landmarks are not beig retconned.

[Dresan]

Start Tiernan the individual

As a personal observation, it's hard for me to keep an open mind while sifting through all the vitriol and snark.  This is a project 3 months in the making, soaking up a lot of my time and effort. Right now I'm feeling that if being open and transparent means having to deal with this every time, then perhaps it's time to do what I feel is best for the game and keep my communications solely among staff.   At least that way I can blissfully ignore the vitriolic angst on the GDB until it fades away.   I'd rather not, as I believe that our community has plenty of good ideas on how to improve the game.  But hey, since I'm being open about my feelings, that's my current mood.  The internet is full of trolls, I get it, I am hoping our community is different.

I don't want to derail this thread but..

What you are experiencing here is what a number of people who've ever posted ideas on this forum sometimes experience. Some people in this community are very resistant to change, new ideas and even just simple debates over things. Unfortunately instead of having to make constructive agreements against another person's ideas most posters here often just resorted to snark and vitriol against each other.  Players do this to other players, staff do it to players, and of course as you see in this thread players do it to staff too.It is often under the guide of 'I know something you don't but its too IC to explain'.  When someone suggests an idea that isn't immediately popular, people on this forum shit on it, and then they shit on the person submitting it, often times without proper reasoning or argument but instead with mean spirited unhelpful comments and staff has allowed this to happen over the years. Whenever I want to post an idea on this forum, I have to ask myself if I really want to deal with the regular people posting on this forum and a lot of the time i don't. I don't think I'm completely alone in that  since 250~ people play this game, and most don't bother posting at all either.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, this forums are pretty toxic, even in comparison with other gaming forums. Mostly because in other forums you can't just be snarky and hide behind 'its too IC to explain' or just plain lies without being labeled a troll or idiot. It would be great if people could post ideas and their thoughts without having snark and vitriol thrown at them from all sides but hey that is just one of those crazy ideas, unfortunately one that might also require some work to achieve at this point.

Sorry for the derail.