On armies

[HavokBlue]

the 90s were a dark time

[Saellyn]

Except, like, a whole bunch of dwarves that one time.

That ended with a Dragon pwning face.

[racurtne]

When farming gets easier it lowers the percentage of people who perform agricultural labors. What I should be saying, and trying to get at, is that we don't know how much of the population is involved in farming. We can bet it's more than 50%, since pre-industrial agriculture seems to suggest this is such. China still has a large percentage of its population involved in agricultural work. Not pre-industrial numbers, but a big percentage. That's what I meant by it hasn't changed a lot. With the new techniques, more land is available for production due to better irrigation techniques, etc etc etc. This allows a larger population but still ties up a lot of that population in agriculture. It was late for me when I was posting and I tend to ramble.

I also thought of the Spartan analogy as I was lying in bed. Maybe I should look that up or something.

As far as the hunting and guard experience go, it could increase the quantity if you raise the limiting factors of wealth and food production you keep insisting are known when we lack information. Since we're dealing with volunteer forces in part at least, if there's more food or money than you think, it stands to reason that people capable of taking advantage of that would do so. The only thing I'm trying to do is help you make a better guess or possibly extend the range of what's possible off of a flat 5%. We're talking about fantasy here. Nobody's faulting your research, it's good. I'm saying the unknowns are multitude.

We don't know the percentage of people tied up in agriculture. We don't know how the food and wealth is distributed. We don't know exactly how much the states spend equipping, or at least providing discounted equipment for, their soldiers. The two societies we are comparing were structured differently, and we just don't know if what stretched Rome to breaking would do the same to Allanak or Tuluk. A state bent towards supporting its military above all else may be able to support a larger percentage of soldiers. While I think it forms a VERY educated guess, I think a range of possibilities should be considered.

You've got a good guess, going on what limited information we have. Bravo.

[racurtne]

This was fun to think about. Thanks.

[Clavis]

I don't know about the Spartans, they spent a great deal of there youth at least for the boys growing up learning to fight. It's all they did for the better part of their childhood into their adulthood. The women, and those that didn't make the cut where the ones that tended to do the everyday chores. Though not a hundred percent on the exact numbers, also with the slaves I'm unsure if many of them would be let into the military, in Zalanthas.

Though I'm sure there is some form of slave fighting force, other then in the gladiator arena. Even then Gladiators are really not suited for the majority of militia roles. Do to training being based more upon one on one which they excelled at throughout history.

[HavokBlue]

The militaries already utilize slaves as soldiers if NPCs are anything to go by.

[Patuk]

Re: Sparta

The problem with using Sparta for a comparison is twofold.

Allanak and Tuluk, generally speaking, couldn't outfit more soldiers if they tried. Their armies seem to be at full capacity already.

Sparta, for the entirety of its existence, has had a very small amount of soldiers on a very large population of serfs. The low amount of soldiers, spartiates, was kept low through a combination of lower than average birthrates and the impossibility of outsiders being granted citizenship.

I suppose you could try and find out just how many people lived in Sparta, which already is a difficult task in itself, but we'd end up with such a ridiculously tiny amount of soldiers that for there to be only a very sparse amount of revolts is inexplicable. There's not even one every decade.

[MeTekillot]

Didn't Sparta also get its ass kicked for a refusal to innovate or something? I read it on Cracked.com

[Patuk]

Didn't Sparta also get its ass kicked for a refusal to innovate or something? I read it on Cracked.com

Basically so, yes. Spartan citizenship was entirely impossible for outsiders to obtain, and so the amount of Spartan citizens always lagged behind. Still, that's not uniquely Spartan, for that to happen was more of a characteristic of every Greek state, ever.

[Zoan]

everything I posted in this thread

neeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrd

[Nyr]

Patuk, this was really well-written.  Good work!

[Patuk]

Patuk, this was really well-written.  Good work!

Thank you. If there's anything else you'd like calculated, I can do so, too.

[Zoan]

oh geez why dont you two statistics nerds just kiss already

[James de Monet]

I'm not certain what you are including in "equipping", but don't be fooled by NPCs. They all wear the same gear because it's expedient, not because it's standard issue. 

The two cities do provide some gear for their armies, but it isn't all free, and I don't think it's anywhere close to a full kit for your average soldier. Some may also be gleaned from the ubiquitous second hand bins, but that's only different from Rome because here, vNPC families tend not to come claim that stuff when their brother/sister/etc dies. And even in Rome, when afield, all that stuff would be recycled, I'm sure. I have no idea what bearing that has on your calculations, just pointing it out.

[Patuk]

It doesn't really affect the calculations either way, no, not really. It would affect the effectivity of either army a little, perhaps, but that's not really what I'm calculating here.

In fact, the real point of interest is Allanak's population of gemmed. With Tuluk having no magick support at all, it'd skew the statistics in favor of Allanak even further.

[Dalmeth]

A few points :

Comparisons to modern militaries are laughable.  Last I read, the modern, professional army didn't come about until the late 18th or early 19th centuries, and was generally thought to be firmly established in the Napoleonic Wars.  So Patuk makes a good point in restricting modern comparisons.

Women participation in the military is almost a non-issue, as if a woman joins, a man or a woman has to substitute for the work lost.

And any comparison to Sparta is out of the question.  Sparta was a freak state where most of its population was enslaved by a small population dedicated to preventing revolt.  You can make comparisons to Zalanthas's oppressive city-states, but they're weak at best.  Sparta had a host of other economies to make up for their shortcomings.  Zalanthas does not.

[Saellyn]

Zalanthas has a lot of economies. The obsidian/glass economy, the salt economy, the coin economy (minute), the water economy, food, shelter... all of these are an economy.

Am I full of shit? Yes. But still, Zalanthas does have a lot going for it, for those who are willing to look into it.

[Patuk]

I'm wary of comparing to Sparta mostly because Sparta wasn't ever really at its full military capacity.

It could have, if Spartan culture were different, increased its amount of professional soldiers by granting more people citizenhood. It didn't. The Spartan military was, at all times, very small.

Another problem - Spartan numbers of population are ridiculously shaky. People disagree wildly, and the amount of soldiers and the ratio of soldiers/other inhabitants was small.

Women participation decidedly is not a non-issue, for Zalanthan women are more physically capable than those on earth. It allows for a far more efficient division of labour.

Finally.. Yeah, I appreciate the point about modern-day military comparisons. We still aren't at the Zalanthan point, since no modern state that doesn't venerate the Glorious Leader of all He surveys and is effectively Zalanthan already has increasing its military strength as its top priority.

(Incidentally, I would like to note that the North Korean military is around 4% of its total population. It really is Zalanthas in disguise.)

[Saellyn]

I do like this entire discussion. It puts into light a lot of things.

Did you factor in possible conscripts that each military regiment might force into its armies, in the inevitable case that one army does manage to beat down the other one?

[Patuk]

I'm not sure how I'd do so? Zalanthas doesn't really differ from earth in that manner.