On armies

[Patuk]

I am a student of history, and so I often need to read up on how states deal with military issues, as well as the ways they build up their armies. After rambling a bit in the RAT thread, I decided to take an idea of mine here: how much soldiers are there in either of the city-states' armies?

First things first, we need an overview of either city's population. Fortunately, this is available.

Tuluk (350,000)
219,000 humans (50% are slaves) (62.6% of total)
108,500 elves (10% are slaves) (31% of Total)
3,500 dwarves (65% are slaves) (1% of Total)
3,500 half-giants (80% are slaves) (1% of Total)
7,000 half-elves (40% are slaves) (2% of total)
1,500 muls (98% are slaves) (0.4% of total)
7,000 unknown/other/mutant (25% are slaves) (2% of Total)


Allanak (481,880)
310,000 humans (50% are slaves) (150,000 free) (64.3% of total)
150,000 elves (10% are slaves) (135,500 free) (31.1% of total)
7,500 dwarves (65% are slaves) (2,600 free) (1.8% of total)
3,800 half-giants (20% are slaves) (3,150 free) (0.8% of total)
5,800 half-elves (40% are slaves) (3,400 free) (1.3% of total)
1980 muls (99% are slaves) (18 free) (0.4% of total)
2,800 unknown/other/mutant (40% are slaves) (1,400 free) (~0.6% of total)

These numbers are a bit old and are stated to be different now, but the point isn't so much to figure out the population of either city right now, as well as it is to give a general idea of the strength of each military in both cities.

My idea of coming to a good count of soldiers for Zalanthas, we could take the population numbers of historical civilisations and see how adding everything up would work if one were to apply it to Allanak and Tuluk. Before you start hitting reply and tell me that Armageddon is a game, consider that I am calculating this for my own amusement, and that I am going to factor in Zalanthas' more extraordinary aspects, too. Lastly, I realise that in the end, this thread is irrelevant, and won't change the game. If you've nothing better to do than to tell me 'arm is a game shut up' you can just as easily not post at all.

Regardless.

The first problem in determining the size of the armies is that, though I have a neat figure for Armageddon's two cities right here, most historical states are far more foggy where it comes to the population they had. Because of this, I'm going to be able to use what'll be figures from well-documented states, for the largest part. That well-documented numbers are lacking would be one thing, but there is a second, far more irritating problem:

Zalanthas' city-states' manner of warfare is very different from that of any historical state on earth.

We all know that the cities in Armageddon have their own militaries, which in itself isn't anomalous. The deviation from history lies in the fact that Zalanthan soldiers are all professional. The AoD and the Legions are fully comprised of people who hold no occupation other than that of soldier, and spend none of their time practicing crafts that benefit their cities at all. In contrast, virtually all warfare on earth was conducted either with soldiers who were levies, which means that the warriors in question would not be full-time soldiers, or mercenaries, who were hired from abroad very often. For states to keep standing professional armies the way the cities in Zalanthas do is unheard of.

In either case, let's get down to the crunch: the first manners for us to calculate the amount of soldiers either city can have.

The best equivalent for Zalanthas, I feel, is the classical world, for it holds the most city-states or states of a similar nature. For the size of the Zalanthan militaries, what I'm going to do is take the amount of soldiers that were drafted in Rome during the height of the second Punic war, which marked the most widespread mobilisation at any point of time in Roman history. Given a rough estimate of the Roman population during the aforementioned second Punic war, the amount of people sent to fight the Carthaginians ended up being no more than 12% of the state's entire free population.

I want to note that this figure of 12% really does denote an extreme situation: another example of such a number of people being made to fight is the American south during the civil war. For a state to maintain such a state of mobilisation taxes its resources to the point of ruin. Even percentages of 7 and 8 percent are high, when we look at crises in 18th century European kingdoms, and again I would like to note: none of the examples I am giving denotes civilisations where being a soldier would be a fulltime craft, much less something one would expect to work for their entire lives. A 'reasonable' amount of soldiers for city-states like Allanak and Tuluk to have would be around the five percent, give or take a few. Of course, there are a few factors which complicate such an amount.

The first problem with the 5% estimate is that Zalanthas, unlike earth, has no use of metal in farming implements, and has an altogether poor climate for farming. Low technology and bad conditions means that the productivity of labour will be low, which in turn means that the relative amount of people working agriculturally will need to be high. For 5% of your free population to only tax the economy is difficult in the Zalanthan agricultural model, so agriculture would be a reason to tune down the five percent to four or perhaps three.

What allows for a somewhat higher number of soldiers, on the other hand, is the fact that Zalanthan women, unlike those on earth, take part in military matters. The pool of potential soldiers thus outright doubles in size, though here as well it needs to be said that earth's women, whilst not fighting, certainly weren't idle either: women took part in agricultural labour, working crafts, and raising families as much as men. To state that 24% of the Roman population would have fought in the war if women had been allowed in goes far, but still I think the admission of women into the military would mean that the lower estimate from the agricultural output problem should be compensated for more than adequately: through participation of women, the number of soldiers the state can maintain becomes around six or seven percent.

What I think would bring this number down again is Zalanthas' question of race. That dwarves can join the Tuluki military but are barred from enlisting in Allanak isn't even of importance here; the real problem is that neither city allows for elves to fight, despite elves forming 46% of either city's free population. Part of this loss of potential soldiers is compensated for by elves working jobs in areas such as manufacturing, trade and general commerce, but even then the exclusion of such an enormous amount of people from the military is solid enough for me to think that the amount of soldiers should be brought back to five percent again.

Taking all these things in mind, I think it is safe to say that the amount of soldiers in either city-state would not exceed the figure of 5%, barring extreme measures that threaten the very city itself; I can imagine that the gith threat of Allanak, for example, would have lead to an increase in soldiers, temporary or not. This would mean that, with the numbers presented in the statistics at the beginning of my post, Tuluk would have around 13'000 soldiers, since a number of their soldiers are slaves as well, and Allanak's soldier count would be around 14'800, its entire armed forces comprised of volunteers.

Questions and comments are welcome, especially if they concern flaws in my calculations.

[Lizzie]

Not sure if you're trying to say there's some problem with the military population quantity or not.

In Israel, a stint in the armed services is mandatory for all citizens, male and female, as long as they are physically capable of serving. I don't know the actual statistics, you could google it. And at any given moment, you can't count on every citizen being a member of the armed forces. But the vast majority of them will have served for a period of time. I believe they're required to register once they turn 18. Might be younger.

That's just one country, but it does indicate that it's not such an unheard of thing for a large portion of citizenry to have some affiliation with armed services.

[Clavis]

curious as to if you considered the amount of children working the fields and not in Zalanthas, as well as slaves laboring in the field. Freeing up a lot of the work for the commoners to have jobs as full time military? Which might be why the standing armies are so large, also unsure of how many in those army are actual slaves?

[racurtne]

First, as a fellow student of history, I think you did some good work here. All of my increases are based solely on the effects our fantasy setting might have on these numbers.

I wouldn't raise the figure much, but perhaps 6.5% is a better guess. My reasoning is that a larger percent of the population is fit for hard labor and/or military service due to the environment.  One might consider that magick could help with a lot of logistical issues both military and agricultural in nature, possibly eliminating some of the problems caused by lack of metal farming implements. A tax on water would likely raise a lot of revenue for the state. The amount of wealth concentrated in the hands of the government is probably higher than that of the Roman Republic, giving them the ability to support a larger force. (I know Rome didn't even arm its soldiers out of pocket until partway through the Second Punic War. The number of differences in the Zalanthan army model and that of the Roman Republic both pre and post Punic wars is so high that it's difficult to make the comparison. I think Patuk made some pretty decent assumptions, though.)

As for large numbers of people being involved in the military, I read that nearly 1/4 of North Korea's working population is associated with the military in SOME way. Most armies operate on a minimum of 3-1 support-soldier ratio. Since these professional soldiers would carry much of their own gear and rations (just as the Roman military did), you can assume this to be a good guess. The problem, however, is that the Templarates of each city-state employ a large number of slaves. These are the people who likely form much of the logistics core for the armies. Trying to decide how the slave population is divided up among the various jobs they do is a near impossible headache without more information.

There seems to be a large number of half-giants in these militaries, too. I'm going to guess that the majority of half-giants are soldiers. This might raise the figure a bit further.

I'm guessing a range anywhere between your estimate of 14,800 to somewhere around 18,000 might be possible for Allanak. Then again, the number might be higher, because fantasy^tm.

Tuluk I'm not entirely sure about, because it doesn't seem as highly militarized. Maybe 13,000-15,000?

I'm just throwing some ideas around.

[HavokBlue]

Remember that PCs typically serve in more unique units within the city militaries. It could be that there ARE in fact part time soldiers who are called up when needed.

At least, that would make sense to me.

[racurtne]

Remember that PCs typically serve in more unique units within the city militaries. It could be that there ARE in fact part time soldiers who are called up when needed.

At least, that would make sense to me.

I know for a fact the PC AOD unit is not unique at all.

[HavokBlue]

If I'm wrong disregard me, I'm not familiar with the clan documentation, just my experience in game.

[bcw81]

If I'm wrong disregard me, I'm not familiar with the clan documentation, just my experience in game.

The Legion used to be this way, back when the Ivory Guard was a thing...

I wish the Ivory Guard was still a thing.

But yeah, for the First Cavalry in the Legion, they're your stock typical mounted soldier.

[Harmless]

tl, dr.

I can't stop wondering if the OP has some kind of hidden agenda behind this post.

[HavokBlue]

why would you come into a perfectly good thread and post that

[lordcooper]

why would you come into a perfectly good thread and post that

because patuk is blatantly pushing the liberal pokemon agenda

[racurtne]

If I'm wrong disregard me, I'm not familiar with the clan documentation, just my experience in game.

Yeah. I'm just pointing it out. I don't know about the Legions, but that's been covered.

[Delusion]

Once you factor in House-employed troops and more loosely affiliated mercenaries, I imagine the numbers of soldiers in the Arm or Legion would drop even further.

Of course, the militia could be fed primarily with magically sourced food, making any economic considerations moot.

[Patuk]

post

Thank you. Please do take in mind that I did consider what you've been noting here, though.

I wouldn't raise the figure much, but perhaps 6.5% is a better guess. My reasoning is that a larger percent of the population is fit for hard labor and/or military service due to the environment.  One might consider that magick could help with a lot of logistical issues both military and agricultural in nature, possibly eliminating some of the problems caused by lack of metal farming implements. A tax on water would likely raise a lot of revenue for the state. The amount of wealth concentrated in the hands of the government is probably higher than that of the Roman Republic, giving them the ability to support a larger force. (I know Rome didn't even arm its soldiers out of pocket until partway through the Second Punic War. The number of differences in the Zalanthan army model and that of the Roman Republic both pre and post Punic wars is so high that it's difficult to make the comparison. I think Patuk made some pretty decent assumptions, though.)

The environmental issue is something I'd consider a non-issue for two reasons. For one, you might as well argue that having so many people starving would lower the amount of people fit for military service. Secondly, Zalanthas' environment isn't somehow more conducive to making people suitable for military activity; most soldiers(or people in general) in history came from farming backgrounds. I disregarded environment for a reason when I made my statistics.

Magick is something I'd, again, rather not consider, as one of our city-states makes no use of it whatsoever. It might raise the potential forces of the Allanaki military, but the Tuluki army's estimate wouldn't increase in size because of it.

Your point about the state's wealth is, again, not something that makes a difference. The Roman state didn't need to be wealthy to outfit an army, since for the majority of its existence its soldiers equipped themselves. Because of this, I had to go and use the second Punic war as an example, as it denotes the largest crisis in the time where Rome is still something of a city-state. With the combination of having a largely self-equipped military and drafting a massive amount of soldiers despite that, I think it's as good an example as any.

As for large numbers of people being involved in the military, I read that nearly 1/4 of North Korea's working population is associated with the military in SOME way. Most armies operate on a minimum of 3-1 support-soldier ratio. Since these professional soldiers would carry much of their own gear and rations (just as the Roman military did), you can assume this to be a good guess. The problem, however, is that the Templarates of each city-state employ a large number of slaves. These are the people who likely form much of the logistics core for the armies. Trying to decide how the slave population is divided up among the various jobs they do is a near impossible headache without more information.

Modern examples are tempting to use for me, too, but there is a massive problem where it concerns the carrying capacity of states. North Korea, unlike Rome or the old south or Zalanthas, has modern agricultural development, even in being behind on the rest of the world in that regard. Despite having the kind of farming potential Tektrollnes can only dream of, it still has a structurally underfed and starving population. It does not make for a good example.

The logistics thing is a better point, but I went and calculated that as well. For one, both the old south and Rome had slaves as well, which means that going 'Zalanthas has slaves' becomes slightly less relevant. What you also need to consider is that Roman army logistics were cheerfully minimalistic. Soldiers did not carry much of their own gear and rations, they carried everything, with only the support of some pack animals, which, again, Zalanthas has no shortage of itself. Estimates from Rome during the first century AD, which I want to note is a time where the military was, due to a general absence of wars, was really rather small, have the state employing no more than a thousand civil cervants, whereas the empire encompassed millions of people by that time. It becomes, effectively, something that would draw no large number of manpower from any city-state.

There seems to be a large number of half-giants in these militaries, too. I'm going to guess that the majority of half-giants are soldiers. This might raise the figure a bit further.

Half-giants enlisting would mean that you'd need more food to feed a lower(if more effective) number of soldiers. The number of soldiers would get lowered, not raised. I also didn't calculate in the number of half-giants because more than average numbers of half-giants enlisting would free up more jobs for humans to work, which would leave hte overall statistics unchanged.

Not sure if you're trying to say there's some problem with the military population quantity or not.

Since there are no given numbers, I don't think there's a problem at all.

In Israel, a stint in the armed services is mandatory for all citizens, male and female, as long as they are physically capable of serving. I don't know the actual statistics, you could google it. And at any given moment, you can't count on every citizen being a member of the armed forces. But the vast majority of them will have served for a period of time. I believe they're required to register once they turn 18. Might be younger.

I know how Israel handles its military quite well, but I don't exactly see how it is relevant..? Still, yeah, it works as an example of a real-world military where women are strongly involved.

curious as to if you considered the amount of children working the fields and not in Zalanthas, as well as slaves laboring in the field. Freeing up a lot of the work for the commoners to have jobs as full time military? Which might be why the standing armies are so large, also unsure of how many in those army are actual slaves?

I considered this, yes. The amount of children working would be no different from that on earth, so the examples I gave wouldn't deviate from Armageddon in that regard. The point about slaves is better, but this, too, I considered, mostly through using Rome and the old south in times of crisis as examples. The amount of slaves in either civilisation isn't quite as high as it is in Zalanthas, but then Zalanthas' amount of freemen working in agriculture is lower as well. All in all I'd say the amount of slaves is something that wouldn't sway the statistics in either direction.

[Patuk]

tl, dr.

I can't stop wondering if the OP has some kind of hidden agenda behind this post.

There's no need to be rude. Go act bastardly in game instead of in here.

why would you come into a perfectly good thread and post that

Thank you 

[MeTekillot]

I'd say that all this stuff works the way it does because a wizard does it. Because wizards literally did it, probably.

[Patuk]

I'd say that all this stuff works the way it does because a wizard does it. Because wizards literally did it, probably.

I'm not sure why the 'a wizard did it' thing is required in this specific case. If the numbers I stated would actually break the game that'd be one thing, but I don't think they do.

[racurtne]

Thank you. Please do take in mind that I did consider what you've been noting here, though.

Well, you didn't really spell that out, so I just threw out some considerations.

The environmental issue is something I'd consider a non-issue for two reasons. For one, you might as well argue that having so many people starving would lower the amount of people fit for military service. Secondly, Zalanthas' environment isn't somehow more conducive to making people suitable for military activity; most soldiers(or people in general) in history came from farming backgrounds. I disregarded environment for a reason when I made my statistics.

Magick is something I'd, again, rather not consider, as one of our city-states makes no use of it whatsoever. It might raise the potential forces of the Allanaki military, but the Tuluki army's estimate wouldn't increase in size because of it.

Your point about the state's wealth is, again, not something that makes a difference. The Roman state didn't need to be wealthy to outfit an army, since for the majority of its existence its soldiers equipped themselves. Because of this, I had to go and use the second Punic war as an example, as it denotes the largest crisis in the time where Rome is still something of a city-state. With the combination of having a largely self-equipped military and drafting a massive amount of soldiers despite that, I think it's as good an example as any

I don't know if the starving situation is quite as bad as it seems on a continual basis. That's debatable, but generally population trends up above carrying capacity and then back down below it. Maintaining a large, near constantly starving population doesn't normally happen. I think that's an effect of our static game world if nothing else.

Second, I would argue that Zalanthas' environment absolutely does make more people suitable for military work. The farming ratio would be about the same, and you are correct that most military types historically are farming types.  The number of people with guard or hunting experience is probably higher, though, given how lucrative and dangerous trade is. I don't think that can be proven either way, but if you want a discussion don't just handwave away my suggestions.  

State wealth makes a big difference. Stating that the Roman state didn't need to be wealthy until the second Punic war doesn't really negate my point. I threw that point out there to demonstrate the vast differences in the situations you are comparing here. Rome was constantly drafting new recruits as people were killed in the Second Punic War. This was the first time they were spending money out of pocket to equip soldiers. In Zalanthas we have wealthy states built around supporting their professional military. I think the difference in wealth is pretty important, since the comparison doesn't hold as well. I don't think you can make this direct comparison and simply wave away the differences. The armies are supported and recruited very differently.

Consider: We have no idea how the food is actually distributed in this society. We know how Rome worked. How does Zalanthas work?...I get to this after your next quote.

Modern examples are tempting to use for me, too, but there is a massive problem where it concerns the carrying capacity of states. North Korea, unlike Rome or the old south or Zalanthas, has modern agricultural development, even in being behind on the rest of the world in that regard. Despite having the kind of farming potential Tektrollnes can only dream of, it still has a structurally underfed and starving population. It does not make for a good example.

The logistics thing is a better point, but I went and calculated that as well. For one, both the old south and Rome had slaves as well, which means that going 'Zalanthas has slaves' becomes slightly less relevant. What you also need to consider is that Roman army logistics were cheerfully minimalistic. Soldiers did not carry much of their own gear and rations, they carried everything, with only the support of some pack animals, which, again, Zalanthas has no shortage of itself. Estimates from Rome during the first century AD, which I want to note is a time where the military was, due to a general absence of wars, was really rather small, have the state employing no more than a thousand civil cervants, whereas the empire encompassed millions of people by that time. It becomes, effectively, something that would draw no large number of manpower from any city-state.

I think your understanding of North Korean farming techniques isn't quite correct. Most farming in both of these situations is accomplished by hand and with the aid of some draft animals. Even today in modern China agriculture is almost entirely done by hand. I doubt very much that the average North Korean farmer outproduces the average Zalanthan farmer. Farming in China has changed VERY little in the past 5000 years. I doubt it's changed much in North Korea. I think Tektrollnes absolutely can imagine the agricultural capacity of modern states which have not mechanized their agriculture.

Now. How is this food distributed? You pointed out that North Koreans are starving and Zalanthans are starving, but said North Korea isn't a good example. For your consideration:

Perhaps the vast majority of food is purchased at a serious discount or otherwise acquired by the two governments for military purposes. The rest of the population subsists off the high-priced leftovers. This causes much of the starvation you see. The military is top priority and everything else plays second-fiddle, at all times. Considering we're dealing with a couple of immortal dictators with immense power, I don't see how this is beyond reason.

I said the Zalanthas has slaves bit mostly to point out that I'm not sure how the rest of the population is distributed, not saying that somehow affects the numbers in any way. When you say "everything" plus the support of pack animals. That means they didn't carry "EVERYTHING" bro. That's why I said much of their own gear and rations. Using everything, nothing, always, and never is generally a bad way of going about things if you want an argument to be taken seriously. So I decided to avoid the word. I think that logistics is probably a larger concern for Zalanthas than it is for Rome during the Pax Romana due to the desert environment and the lack of localized farms for the various outposts these two states support. Standing armies sitting in camps are going to require constant resupply. I bet 25% of Allanak's TOTAL population could easily be involved in the military in some way. I have some small bit of inside knowledge, as I recently read in a staff post that when Allanak's armies march there are a lot of camp followers (support, families of soldiers, etc). So, we can assume a difference here from the Roman model, and bet on there being a pretty robust logistics infrastructure.

Half-giants enlisting would mean that you'd need more food to feed a lower(if more effective) number of soldiers. The number of soldiers would get lowered, not raised. I also didn't calculate in the number of half-giants because more than average numbers of half-giants enlisting would free up more jobs for humans to work, which would leave hte overall statistics unchanged.

Yeah. I'm not sure where I was going with that. I think I was thinking you were making your percentage calculations based only on the humans or something, but then looking again I see that was unlikely.

Also, magick shouldn't necessarily be ignored just because it can only help one city-state. It may well be that Allanak's military is significantly bigger. We don't know for certain.

[HavokBlue]

Are you counting Tuluk's tribal levies in your assessment of their military?

[Patuk]

I don't know if the starving situation is quite as bad as it seems on a continual basis. That's debatable, but generally population trends up above carrying capacity and then back down below it. Maintaining a large, near constantly starving population doesn't normally happen. I think that's an effect of our static game world if nothing else.

This is true, but it doesn't quite change the percentage of soldiers that's possible, just the absolute amount. The amounts I mentioned earlier are wrong anyway, since they are from 8 years ago, and the world's changed. Still.

Second, I would argue that Zalanthas' environment absolutely does make more people suitable for military work. The farming ratio would be about the same, and you are correct that most military types historically are farming types.  The number of people with guard or hunting experience is probably higher, though, given how lucrative and dangerous trade is. I don't think that can be proven either way, but if you want a discussion don't just handwave away my suggestions.  

Okay. A problem here is that guard and hunting experience, while useful to military recruits, still mean that anyone who signs up is going to become a full-time soldier. It may affect the quality of soldiers you end up with, but not the quantity.

State wealth makes a big difference. Stating that the Roman state didn't need to be wealthy until the second Punic war doesn't really negate my point. I threw that point out there to demonstrate the vast differences in the situations you are comparing here. Rome was constantly drafting new recruits as people were killed in the Second Punic War. This was the first time they were spending money out of pocket to equip soldiers. In Zalanthas we have wealthy states built around supporting their professional military. I think the difference in wealth is pretty important, since the comparison doesn't hold as well. I don't think you can make this direct comparison and simply wave away the differences. The armies are supported and recruited very differently.

I'm not entirely sure how what you're saying changes anything, as I stated earlier that I weighed these things into my calculation. The example of the second Punic war that I keep using works because it denotes the point where republican Rome's resources were stretched to what was a breaking level. No, the Roman state wasn't as wealthy as either Zalanthan city is, but the Roman military was also for a large part self-funded, so as far as I am concerned the two cancel each other out. I'm not waving away the differences, I'm saying that the differences do not lead to actually different outcomes. So yes, agreed, a wealthier state means the state gets to outfit more soldiers, but then a wealthier populace means the people can join the army more easily as well.

Consider: We have no idea how the food is actually distributed in this society. We know how Rome worked. How does Zalanthas work?...I get to this after your next quote.

Modern examples are tempting to use for me, too, but there is a massive problem where it concerns the carrying capacity of states. North Korea, unlike Rome or the old south or Zalanthas, has modern agricultural development, even in being behind on the rest of the world in that regard. Despite having the kind of farming potential Tektrollnes can only dream of, it still has a structurally underfed and starving population. It does not make for a good example.

The logistics thing is a better point, but I went and calculated that as well. For one, both the old south and Rome had slaves as well, which means that going 'Zalanthas has slaves' becomes slightly less relevant. What you also need to consider is that Roman army logistics were cheerfully minimalistic. Soldiers did not carry much of their own gear and rations, they carried everything, with only the support of some pack animals, which, again, Zalanthas has no shortage of itself. Estimates from Rome during the first century AD, which I want to note is a time where the military was, due to a general absence of wars, was really rather small, have the state employing no more than a thousand civil cervants, whereas the empire encompassed millions of people by that time. It becomes, effectively, something that would draw no large number of manpower from any city-state.

I think your understanding of North Korean farming techniques isn't quite correct. Most farming in both of these situations is accomplished by hand and with the aid of some draft animals. Even today in modern China agriculture is almost entirely done by hand. I doubt very much that the average North Korean farmer outproduces the average Zalanthan farmer. Farming in China has changed VERY little in the past 5000 years. I doubt it's changed much in North Korea. I think Tektrollnes absolutely can imagine the agricultural capacity of modern states which have not mechanized their agriculture.

I'm going to stop you right here and note that you're wrong. Very, very wrong. In fact, the very real statistics of China having one and a half billion people should be enough to denote that what you're saying simply isn't possible, as your statement on farming implies that Chinese society somehow has let more than half of its food supply sit idle. Chinese agriculture has changed significantly over the past 5000 years. How would you even come to say something like that..? There wasn't even any freaking iron that long ago, and opinions on whether or not bronze was present are very much divided as well. I'm sorry about coming across as hostile, but you're simply wrong in this regard. Hell, your example of North Korea is one of a nation housing twenty-four million people in a rather small area. For so many people to live in such a small area would have been impossible prior to the nineteenth century at least.

Now. How is this food distributed? You pointed out that North Koreans are starving and Zalanthans are starving, but said North Korea isn't a good example. For your consideration:

Perhaps the vast majority of food is purchased at a serious discount or otherwise acquired by the two governments for military purposes. The rest of the population subsists off the high-priced leftovers. This causes much of the starvation you see. The military is top priority and everything else plays second-fiddle, at all times. Considering we're dealing with a couple of immortal dictators with immense power, I don't see how this is beyond reason.

This is very possible. Agreed.

I said the Zalanthas has slaves bit mostly to point out that I'm not sure how the rest of the population is distributed, not saying that somehow affects the numbers in any way. When you say "everything" plus the support of pack animals. That means they didn't carry "EVERYTHING" bro. That's why I said much of their own gear and rations. Using everything, nothing, always, and never is generally a bad way of going about things if you want an argument to be taken seriously. So I decided to avoid the word. I think that logistics is probably a larger concern for Zalanthas than it is for Rome during the Pax Romana due to the desert environment and the lack of localized farms for the various outposts these two states support. Standing armies sitting in camps are going to require constant resupply. I bet 25% of Allanak's TOTAL population could easily be involved in the military in some way. I have some small bit of inside knowledge, as I recently read in a staff post that when Allanak's armies march there are a lot of camp followers (support, families of soldiers, etc). So, we can assume a difference here from the Roman model, and bet on there being a pretty robust logistics infrastructure.

This is, again, very possible. It's also something that doesn't quite skew the statistics so much, but even that, it's a nice addition.

Half-giants enlisting would mean that you'd need more food to feed a lower(if more effective) number of soldiers. The number of soldiers would get lowered, not raised. I also didn't calculate in the number of half-giants because more than average numbers of half-giants enlisting would free up more jobs for humans to work, which would leave hte overall statistics unchanged.

Yeah. I'm not sure where I was going with that. I think I was thinking you were making your percentage calculations based only on the humans or something, but then looking again I see that was unlikely.

I actually used the entire free population of both city-states in calculating the amount of soldiers you'd have in either city, so yeah, we agree on this one.

Also, magick shouldn't necessarily be ignored just because it can only help one city-state. It may well be that Allanak's military is significantly bigger. We don't know for certain.

True. Allanak very well may have a ten thousand soldiers extra. Or twenty thousand. Or a hundred. It's not something I can calculate, and so it's not something I can really add to the statistics. Still, you're right in saying this, and so Allanak might just have a massive, magic-supported army.

[Patuk]

Are you counting Tuluk's tribal levies in your assessment of their military?

I'm actually not, though I'm happy to see a change such as those, as I find the idea of levies to make a lot more sense than fully professional armies. Levies or not, though, Tuluk's military would have worked the way I calculated for a century at least, so my statistics aren't wrong per se at least. Since staff haven't noted anything on the matter, the levies very well might mean that the Legions themselves are going to be downsized a little. There's no way to tell aside from staff input.

[Oleupata]

Also, I don't think those statistics include the populations of Allanak's (and Tuluk's!) various client villages, both coded and virtual. I imagine the military situation to be very roughly analogous to Sparta, actually, with the professional soldier class capable in a pinch of being supplemented by the perioikoi - who are mostly slaves, in this case. Probably.

[Patuk]

Also, I don't think those statistics include the populations of Allanak's (and Tuluk's!) various client villages, both coded and virtual. I imagine the military situation to be very roughly analogous to Sparta, actually, with the professional soldier class capable in a pinch of being supplemented by the perioikoi - who are mostly slaves, in this case. Probably.

I'm not so sure about this, since I imagine for most of Zalanthas' agriculture to be done by slaves. If the farming villages are excluded from those population statistics, we have cities whose populations are 50% slaves, working.. I don't even know what. It's possible, but I just don't see what all those people would even do. Still, if it's so, I guess I could calculate the new number of soldiers.

[HavokBlue]

Even with armies only numbering in the tens of thousands, I think if Zalanthas were an actual thing and not a computer game, either city state would be able to pretty handily wipe out any other military/tribal entity in the known with only the opposing city to stand a chance at contesting them.

Like I don't know if specific Kuraci Fist numbers are appropriate to post or not but there's really nothing that can compare numerically to a city state army.

[MeTekillot]

Except, like, a whole bunch of dwarves that one time.

[HavokBlue]

the 90s were a dark time

[Saellyn]

Except, like, a whole bunch of dwarves that one time.

That ended with a Dragon pwning face.

[racurtne]

When farming gets easier it lowers the percentage of people who perform agricultural labors. What I should be saying, and trying to get at, is that we don't know how much of the population is involved in farming. We can bet it's more than 50%, since pre-industrial agriculture seems to suggest this is such. China still has a large percentage of its population involved in agricultural work. Not pre-industrial numbers, but a big percentage. That's what I meant by it hasn't changed a lot. With the new techniques, more land is available for production due to better irrigation techniques, etc etc etc. This allows a larger population but still ties up a lot of that population in agriculture. It was late for me when I was posting and I tend to ramble.

I also thought of the Spartan analogy as I was lying in bed. Maybe I should look that up or something.

As far as the hunting and guard experience go, it could increase the quantity if you raise the limiting factors of wealth and food production you keep insisting are known when we lack information. Since we're dealing with volunteer forces in part at least, if there's more food or money than you think, it stands to reason that people capable of taking advantage of that would do so. The only thing I'm trying to do is help you make a better guess or possibly extend the range of what's possible off of a flat 5%. We're talking about fantasy here. Nobody's faulting your research, it's good. I'm saying the unknowns are multitude.

We don't know the percentage of people tied up in agriculture. We don't know how the food and wealth is distributed. We don't know exactly how much the states spend equipping, or at least providing discounted equipment for, their soldiers. The two societies we are comparing were structured differently, and we just don't know if what stretched Rome to breaking would do the same to Allanak or Tuluk. A state bent towards supporting its military above all else may be able to support a larger percentage of soldiers. While I think it forms a VERY educated guess, I think a range of possibilities should be considered.

You've got a good guess, going on what limited information we have. Bravo.

[racurtne]

This was fun to think about. Thanks.

[Clavis]

I don't know about the Spartans, they spent a great deal of there youth at least for the boys growing up learning to fight. It's all they did for the better part of their childhood into their adulthood. The women, and those that didn't make the cut where the ones that tended to do the everyday chores. Though not a hundred percent on the exact numbers, also with the slaves I'm unsure if many of them would be let into the military, in Zalanthas.

Though I'm sure there is some form of slave fighting force, other then in the gladiator arena. Even then Gladiators are really not suited for the majority of militia roles. Do to training being based more upon one on one which they excelled at throughout history.

[HavokBlue]

The militaries already utilize slaves as soldiers if NPCs are anything to go by.

[Patuk]

Re: Sparta

The problem with using Sparta for a comparison is twofold.

Allanak and Tuluk, generally speaking, couldn't outfit more soldiers if they tried. Their armies seem to be at full capacity already.

Sparta, for the entirety of its existence, has had a very small amount of soldiers on a very large population of serfs. The low amount of soldiers, spartiates, was kept low through a combination of lower than average birthrates and the impossibility of outsiders being granted citizenship.

I suppose you could try and find out just how many people lived in Sparta, which already is a difficult task in itself, but we'd end up with such a ridiculously tiny amount of soldiers that for there to be only a very sparse amount of revolts is inexplicable. There's not even one every decade.

[MeTekillot]

Didn't Sparta also get its ass kicked for a refusal to innovate or something? I read it on Cracked.com

[Patuk]

Didn't Sparta also get its ass kicked for a refusal to innovate or something? I read it on Cracked.com

Basically so, yes. Spartan citizenship was entirely impossible for outsiders to obtain, and so the amount of Spartan citizens always lagged behind. Still, that's not uniquely Spartan, for that to happen was more of a characteristic of every Greek state, ever.

[Zoan]

everything I posted in this thread

neeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrd

[Nyr]

Patuk, this was really well-written.  Good work!

[Patuk]

Patuk, this was really well-written.  Good work!

Thank you. If there's anything else you'd like calculated, I can do so, too.

[Zoan]

oh geez why dont you two statistics nerds just kiss already

[James de Monet]

I'm not certain what you are including in "equipping", but don't be fooled by NPCs. They all wear the same gear because it's expedient, not because it's standard issue. 

The two cities do provide some gear for their armies, but it isn't all free, and I don't think it's anywhere close to a full kit for your average soldier. Some may also be gleaned from the ubiquitous second hand bins, but that's only different from Rome because here, vNPC families tend not to come claim that stuff when their brother/sister/etc dies. And even in Rome, when afield, all that stuff would be recycled, I'm sure. I have no idea what bearing that has on your calculations, just pointing it out.

[Patuk]

It doesn't really affect the calculations either way, no, not really. It would affect the effectivity of either army a little, perhaps, but that's not really what I'm calculating here.

In fact, the real point of interest is Allanak's population of gemmed. With Tuluk having no magick support at all, it'd skew the statistics in favor of Allanak even further.

[Dalmeth]

A few points :

Comparisons to modern militaries are laughable.  Last I read, the modern, professional army didn't come about until the late 18th or early 19th centuries, and was generally thought to be firmly established in the Napoleonic Wars.  So Patuk makes a good point in restricting modern comparisons.

Women participation in the military is almost a non-issue, as if a woman joins, a man or a woman has to substitute for the work lost.

And any comparison to Sparta is out of the question.  Sparta was a freak state where most of its population was enslaved by a small population dedicated to preventing revolt.  You can make comparisons to Zalanthas's oppressive city-states, but they're weak at best.  Sparta had a host of other economies to make up for their shortcomings.  Zalanthas does not.

[Saellyn]

Zalanthas has a lot of economies. The obsidian/glass economy, the salt economy, the coin economy (minute), the water economy, food, shelter... all of these are an economy.

Am I full of shit? Yes. But still, Zalanthas does have a lot going for it, for those who are willing to look into it.

[Patuk]

I'm wary of comparing to Sparta mostly because Sparta wasn't ever really at its full military capacity.

It could have, if Spartan culture were different, increased its amount of professional soldiers by granting more people citizenhood. It didn't. The Spartan military was, at all times, very small.

Another problem - Spartan numbers of population are ridiculously shaky. People disagree wildly, and the amount of soldiers and the ratio of soldiers/other inhabitants was small.

Women participation decidedly is not a non-issue, for Zalanthan women are more physically capable than those on earth. It allows for a far more efficient division of labour.

Finally.. Yeah, I appreciate the point about modern-day military comparisons. We still aren't at the Zalanthan point, since no modern state that doesn't venerate the Glorious Leader of all He surveys and is effectively Zalanthan already has increasing its military strength as its top priority.

(Incidentally, I would like to note that the North Korean military is around 4% of its total population. It really is Zalanthas in disguise.)

[Saellyn]

I do like this entire discussion. It puts into light a lot of things.

Did you factor in possible conscripts that each military regiment might force into its armies, in the inevitable case that one army does manage to beat down the other one?

[Patuk]

I'm not sure how I'd do so? Zalanthas doesn't really differ from earth in that manner.