On Getting Involved in Plots and Secrecy (Yet another thread saved from RAT)

[Is Friday]

While I don't necessarily agree with a mutiny of "rabble rousers", from a writer's perspective it is easy to see how so many "reader promises" were broken. It's a community game with 200+ perspectives at the player level, then you've got staff who have an omniscient perspective.

Goals for a HRPT:
1.) Plot consistency for the game world.
2.) Plot consistency for the clans involved.
3.) Plot involvement for PCs.
4.) The event not requiring tons of super sekret stuff being spoiled for the masses.
5.) Furthering the hidden plot arc for the game.

It's pretty easy to see why folks get their panties in a twist when they're focused on their bullet point. Hell, just take a look at jcarter's armageddon forum (lol) if you want an example of bitter "omg my plots didnt work out what fascists" vets.

[Nyr]

You don't need to be a massively skilled PC to be a spy.  Just devious.  Those spies were PCs.  Pretty soon here we should be able to get them to post up some logs.

[Harmless]

It might help to read a log and learn from their example. That'd be cool.

[Barsook]

It might help to read a log and learn from their example. That'd be cool.

+1

[Rahnevyn]

Once again, I question why we're having this good discussion in RAT when it's gonna get pagerolled and lost to eternity, but...

I know about a bit that does seem and make roleplay but really I keep noticing that so many are on about the fact that 'Things happen behind the scenes'. That's the thing, 90% of people will hardly get involved with that. I know people are trying, but, I think it kinda needs a bit of being accessible and perhaps ways we can get more nformation and work with, ICly of course.

Things happening in secret behind the scenes is honestly one of Armageddon's strengths. I don't expect you'll find such a tangled weave of interconnected plots and events in many other games. It's part of what makes our world consistent, too: secrets are kept when they should be, and not broadcast to an entire city. Imagine the reverse for a moment: given our documentation and world, how easy is it to involve charaters like tribals, gemmers, or elves in a plot about behind the scenes power struggles in House Borsail? And by the same token, how do you get those Borsail nobles to care about that elf tribe's turf war or the templar being overly cruel to mages? I'm not saying its impossible, of course, but the links are not direct, and the plot has to be crafted carefully so as not to seem transparent or silly.

Still, I can understand a want to hear more of what's going on. Maybe there's more we can be doing with in game rumor boards and gossipy NPCs to help with that.

[Delusion]

Once again, I question why we're having this good discussion in RAT when it's gonna get pagerolled and lost to eternity, but...

I know about a bit that does seem and make roleplay but really I keep noticing that so many are on about the fact that 'Things happen behind the scenes'. That's the thing, 90% of people will hardly get involved with that. I know people are trying, but, I think it kinda needs a bit of being accessible and perhaps ways we can get more nformation and work with, ICly of course.

Things happening in secret behind the scenes is honestly one of Armageddon's strengths. I don't expect you'll find such a tangled weave of interconnected plots and events in many other games. It's part of what makes our world consistent, too: secrets are kept when they should be, and not broadcast to an entire city. Imagine the reverse for a moment: given our documentation and world, how easy is it to involve charaters like tribals, gemmers, or elves in a plot about behind the scenes power struggles in House Borsail? And by the same token, how do you get those Borsail nobles to care about that elf tribe's turf war or the templar being overly cruel to mages? I'm not saying its impossible, of course, but the links are not direct, and the plot has to be crafted carefully so as not to seem transparent or silly.

Still, I can understand a want to hear more of what's going on. Maybe there's more we can be doing with in game rumor boards and gossipy NPCs to help with that.

You should take on some off-peak nobles, yo.

Most nobles I've seen in my time at Arm have played at peak hours almost exclusively, with seemingly very sporadic forays into off-peak. Even if it means more noble PCs than usual, having a couple with European players would be a good thing. I wouldn't even know where to begin with fixing things for the average east Asian, Australian or New Zealander - Armageddon's always had a lower player count at their 'peak' times than any other biggish RPI out there (Shadows of Isildur, then I guess Atonement, which had lots of SoI players, and Harshlands).

Also, you could always use your immyness to split this all to a new thread? 

[Patuk]

If being European were an upside, I'd probably play three simultaneous nobles by now.

[Rahnevyn]

Also, you could always use your immyness to split this all to a new thread? 

It's really annoying to keep doing that, but since you called me out, FINE.

You should take on some off-peak nobles, yo.

Most nobles I've seen in my time at Arm have played at peak hours almost exclusively, with seemingly very sporadic forays into off-peak. Even if it means more noble PCs than usual, having a couple with European players would be a good thing. I wouldn't even know where to begin with fixing things for the average east Asian, Australian or New Zealander - Armageddon's always had a lower player count at their 'peak' times than any other biggish RPI out there (Shadows of Isildur, then I guess Atonement, which had lots of SoI players, and Harshlands).

We've had off peak nobles before, and I'd be happy to take some again, if we got a good app. I don't think we'll set aside slots specifically for on-peak or off-peak nobles or anything, but we definitely don't say "Oh, this guy doesn't play during peak hours, he's out of the running."

[Fujikoma]

As far as plots are concerned, I've not really tried to get in on the whole war plot thing much, interesting as it has seemed from the outside, and curious as I might have been. I enjoy smaller plots with fewer devastating consequences. These amuse me greatly, just small, innocent little things going on, and then, TRAGEDY strikes, HEY, get your plot out of MY plot, you big jerk! Oh no! More plots in my plots, this is getting messy! Whhhhhy! I just want to be left alone! Why am I being hauled into the arena to face the Gaj!?

And so, there is plenty of excitement for me, almost more than I can handle, without setting Tuluk ablaze and wiping out the d-elf tribes. Maybe I'm alone in being pleased by smaller things involving my PC's own secrets and not the really big secrets of the game, however, considering how much crazy stuff I get wrapped up in, this does not seem to be the case. I enjoy the time I spend playing the game, I enjoy playing a PC that's just out to fulfill their needs and assist others with theirs, and trust me, plenty of trouble comes along with that to keep me highly entertained. If I were ever to want in on the big plots, I'd likely roll up some kind of sneaky-type and butt my way into them, but for now I'm just happy playing the whiny just leave me alone types, and all the terrible consequences that come with that.

And, thanks for the explanation, Nyr, not that I was seeking to get involved, but I did see the concerns of others and become curious as to what's going on and why.

As far as smaller, secretive plots involved in the war, you can find them, a few I've seen have been out in plain view, just don't expect them to drop in your lap very often. Note that this is not intended as criticism toward any player, admin, or disgruntled and jaded troll. Just, yes, I have become aware many times before of smaller player driven plots, so I know they exist. As to whether they have been or will be shut down by circumstances, or will be played out with resounding effects, well, I suppose that depends on the plot and how it's played out, I can't claim any knowledge or understanding there.

This ignorant perspective has been brought to you by NEWB, ruining things for everyone since the beginning of the internet.

[greasygemo]

Personally I just like to roll a PC whose concept is fun to me and then RP them being themselves. The minute I stop caring about plots and have just been awesome and cheerfully going about my shit, ARM is all neat and fun, and other people have lots of neat fun around me. Usually, that's when Lord Chosen McTemplar Faithful Amos the Third of High Garden shows up to hire/throttle/extort/enslave me.

...the sponsored roles just wanna to have friends/victims too. *pats Templar on head*

But like. Some of my favorite plots revolved around unimportant shit, and just made me laugh until I had to log off because I could no longer type.

That's just me tho.

Edit: Oh. Worst case. I usually just do something completely unhealthy that I ICly wouldn't know. Like.. I don't know. Playing with poisons while not ICly knowing what they are and like, emote accidentally getting poison on one of my travel cakes, because dirty hands, then going into a tavern and playing russian roulette with the cakes, eating and handing them out.

Don't try this at home kids.

[Delusion]

Also, you could always use your immyness to split this all to a new thread?  

It's really annoying to keep doing that, but since you called me out, FINE.

You should take on some off-peak nobles, yo.

Most nobles I've seen in my time at Arm have played at peak hours almost exclusively, with seemingly very sporadic forays into off-peak. Even if it means more noble PCs than usual, having a couple with European players would be a good thing. I wouldn't even know where to begin with fixing things for the average east Asian, Australian or New Zealander - Armageddon's always had a lower player count at their 'peak' times than any other biggish RPI out there (Shadows of Isildur, then I guess Atonement, which had lots of SoI players, and Harshlands).

We've had off peak nobles before, and I'd be happy to take some again, if we got a good app. I don't think we'll set aside slots specifically for on-peak or off-peak nobles or anything, but we definitely don't say "Oh, this guy doesn't play during peak hours, he's out of the running."

I think it would be good if you did look specifically for people with particular playtimes. I've seen calls in the past with a requirement of peak playtimes. As is, for a European to encounter a templar, a noble or any employee of a noble house in at least one city requires them to be online in the middle of the night. Lower-ranking members of other clans are still typically accessible at off-peak, at least, but if a person with off-peak playtimes wants to get involved with nobles and stuff, they're totally out of luck. It's possibly prone to being a self-perpetuating problem, because playing a noble, especially a southern noble, without your character being able to interact with their peers with any regularity, may be a little tricky.

[Lizzie]

...meanwhile, for those of us who DO care about these kinds of plots, which is why we're having the conversation...

I think it'd be very helpful for us, if we did see some logs of the "stuff going on behind the scenes that the majority of people never knew was happening." I'm talking about logs that do -not- require staff intervention. I'm talking about all the "be the change" stuff that some players insist is "all you have to do."

[Fujikoma]

But like. Some of my favorite plots revolved around unimportant shit, and just made me laugh until I had to log off because I could no longer type.

I've often wondered if that's the exact reasons some people FTB then log in the middle of a scene. I suppose there could be a number of reasons for that. Return business seems to exclude one possibility, at least.

[greasygemo]

But like. Some of my favorite plots revolved around unimportant shit, and just made me laugh until I had to log off because I could no longer type.

I've often wondered if that's the exact reasons some people FTB then log in the middle of a scene. I suppose there could be a number of reasons for that. Return business seems to exclude one possibility, at least.

Damn, I don't think I've ever had a scene make me laugh so hard I had to exit stage left out of total finger control loss. I would be properly impressed however.

[Dakota]

If you want to get involved in a plot or start a plot, I STRONGLY recommend: taking it to the IMM's (better yet, the person in charge of staff in  your PC's perspective area) and go over what you want to do... Also it's a very good idea to let the IMM's know what docs you're using for any reference / basis for said plot... + your interpretation of the docs (as docs, at least the older ones, can be rather vague and contain mentions of things and perspectives which are no longer applicable).

If you want to get involved in a plot, the easiest way is to join or hang around a Noble House or the Templarate. They'll come to you. But if you've put in a few hours into the game and most of it has been spent RPing with players... Odds are in some way, you've been thread through a plot and didn't even know it.

[valeria]

...meanwhile, for those of us who DO care about these kinds of plots, which is why we're having the conversation...

I think it'd be very helpful for us, if we did see some logs of the "stuff going on behind the scenes that the majority of people never knew was happening." I'm talking about logs that do -not- require staff intervention. I'm talking about all the "be the change" stuff that some players insist is "all you have to do."

As soon as logs can be posted again.  I have several of these to clean up.  But the task of log cleaning is daunting, especially when you don't know when or if you'll be able to post the log.

[slvrmoontiger]

Sometimes I'd rather not know the behind the scenes type stuff. Sometimes knowing stuff becomes stressful and a headache... You know something then you have to keep it to yourself or only tell people who are supposed to know about it... Then you need to know who those people are... It just makes things busy sometimes. Depending on what you know and what you're responsibility is.

[Clavis]

maybe I'm lucky, but I usually end up in a lot more plots, and schemes then I know what to do with. Some of the time I didn't even know I was until it was to late, and I'm racing along some mad scheme, and other times, I make friends, I make enemies, I screw up, I get caught, some others live.

what it all boils down to imo, is how many people do you know? What are they doing, just out hunting, grebbing all the time. Well most likely not going to be caught up in a plot. Sit at a bar, talk to some people, make nice, or make uglies, before bumping uglies. Eventually something is going to land in your lap, other then that buxumy f-me, or epically handsome amos.

It takes some time, other times, it's like one day played, omgaaaawd what did I get myself into. *stabs malifaxis* Stop thinking about how to earn all the sid you can, and spend it buy some drinks, smile, act grumpy, glare at a mul, make fun of a half-gaint.

you won't get involved in plots a lot if your just after sid, most of my poorest, barely scrapping by characters have been involved in some beautiful plots, and suicidal schemes.

[thewolfen3]

I'll be honest about it. I'm trying to give constructive criticism while also being askance of the recent plot. I do like the things which people have said. I don't necessarily kind of try and require specific plots, and I understand being secretive. But, sometimes it seems like Nobles kinda have all the people which they can carry, and perhaps Templars can be busy. I kind of like Nyr's timeline, but sometimes I feel to do some things we'd require staff assistance. Especially, considering the fact that stuff they used on the tree and such, seems and hardly be with the game. Was it abused, kinda? Stuff like that could, probably used right, assist. Also, I get worried about staff wishing and keep us from doing some things that might change a bit. An honest thought.

[Tuannon]

Personally, I think people try too hard to get involved in plots.

When really.. A decent plot will encompass your rank and file role anyway, you just won't know about it.

Just play a role, play it believably and let people involve you or not involve you based on the strengths or weaknesses of the role you are playing.

[Fujikoma]

A decent plot will find you whether you like it or not, whether you know it or not, based on the aspects of your character and their perceived usefulness, or such has been my experience.

But if you want into a specific plot, well, that's more difficult to arrange. Part of the fun is finding all the crazy, whacked out stuff going on that you didn't intend, much less want to find, yet get sucked completely into it.

[BleakOne]

If you are looking to get involved in secret plots, then you should probably be the right someone for secret plots. A half-elf merchant probably won't be pulled into the Templarate's plans unless it involves being used as a meatshield.

People commonly pulled into the business of their city states are those working for militant Noble Houses and the militias.

[racurtne]

In a very general sense, there are several important factors.

The first thing is longevity. If you can't live long enough, it's hard to get the plot-movers to trust you. Once you've been around and loyal long enough, you MAY in fact be trusted. Being smart helps. If you're not smart, take this piece of advice from Abe Lincoln..."Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

The second thing is to be clanned. The types of plots will be related to the type of clan. If you can't handle a schedule, don't join a military clan. Yes, you can try to avoid the schedule, but don't get upset OOC when you get told-off IC. Also, if you want to be trusted with plot information, you might try playing someone who is half-decent at their job.

The third thing is to be patient. Things happen at a slow pace here. Think of it like projects for work. You don't get it done right after the meeting. You're given a time-frame to complete it. Things can crawl sometimes. There's other things to do to entertain yourself in the game. Make connections, play the social game a bit. Flesh out your character a little. Figure out their characteristics. Playing your character should be a mental exercise for at least a while, and this in itself should be a fun challenge. Change your perception, change the game!

The fourth thing is to be real. As said before, have your character be a real person. This is difficult enough to accomplish that it should keep you occupied in the boring times. While there is some merit to sticking with a concept, characters should evolve over time based on what they experience. Nobody stays the same forever. This process is also fun! Exercise your brain while you're playing. Bring out the writer inside.

The last, and in my opinion the most important rule, is BEND!  When people who are in a position to kill you have reason to do so, you might want to drop the tough-guy act. Sure, your character may be a tough-guy, but if he mouths off to soldiers/Templars/Nobles he won't be one for long. If he's a beginning character, you might want to consider how your loud-mouth character survived previous encounters of this sort. I doubt disrespecting them to their face was one of these ways. Give in to torture. I don't care what you see in movies, the vast majority of people break to torture. It may take a while, but they break. Most break immediately, as in the moment they see the instruments of torture immediately. In fact, one quote I remember but can't place is "They all break". Your character is not Superman. You behind the computer may not feel the pain, but he/she does. The number of people who die from sheer stubbornness because "That's what their character would do/ how their character is" is astounding.

It's NOT out of character for your character to want to live. In fact, it's the most in-character motivation there can be. By bending, you can open your character up to further exploitation. Your character who swore never to break under torture might feel a huge amount of guilt after they find their will lacking. This ties back into continual character development and THAT is what keeps you entertained while the plots are being put into motion.

Instant gratification just really doesn't happen in this game. Invest time and effort and the game will pay out. Until then, stay alive and join a clan so you're in a good position when the action goes down.

tl;dr

Learn to live for a while first, be clanned, be patient, make a real character and entertain yourself writing them. Don't write yourself into an inescapable corner where you force your character to their untimely death. They probably want to live too. Just staying alive helps immensely in getting involved in things. Codedly powerful and well-connected characters tend to have the most things going on.

[Nyr]

I kind of like Nyr's timeline, but sometimes I feel to do some things we'd require staff assistance. Especially, considering the fact that stuff they used on the tree and such, seems and hardly be with the game. Was it abused, kinda? Stuff like that could, probably used right, assist. Also, I get worried about staff wishing and keep us from doing some things that might change a bit. An honest thought.

I am having trouble understanding the entirety of what you're saying here, but the people that were the spies were actually part of a role call last year, and they had staff support.  All of them obtained positions of their own accord that greatly assisted the plot, and when the time was right, all of them betrayed everyone they had previously worked side-by-side with.  Growing and cultivating organic spies is a more difficult process in-game but it can be done.

I wouldn't worry about wishing up.  However, if you're planning something big or "game-changing" and the first we hear about it is you wishing up to inform us, you are going about it the wrong way.

First step on getting involved in plots and secrecy:  have a non-static character.  This character needs to be more than just a notch in your belt.  It needs to have a background, a fleshed-out set of motivations.  If your character just sort of goes with the flow of things, that can work, too--but that needs to be part of the character's makeup and not a choice made out of laziness.  Your character might even be able to be a dullard to be trusted, provided they are a well-played dullard.

Second step:  develop relationships and ties with other characters.  Not all positive, not all negative.  I don't mean intimate stuff necessarily, either.  Involvement with other characters will mean that your character gets pulled into things that those other characters are doing.  If you are solely interested in playing a loner, you aren't interested in getting involved in plots and secrecy.

Third step:  patience.  It has been a month of RL time and nothing has happened?  You've only passed the basic test of whether someone interested in involving you in something--whether it be abducting you, corrupting you, bribing you, killing you, stealing from you, using you for this or that, etc.--is going to actually devote the effort to it.  While there are exceptions, the longer a character is in the game, the more likely they'll be involved in something involving a lot of other characters.

Look at it this way.  You roll up your human assassin with a skillbump to backstab.  You are so excited about it!  You go up to a noble and you say, "Hey!  Lord noble guy!  I want to work for you!"  Lord noble guy will hire you, maybe, after confirming you're a southerner, not breedy, etc.  And that'll be it, for now, because Lord noble guy probably expects you to die immediately doing something stupid until you prove otherwise.  You prove otherwise by not dying immediately and playing your character faithfully.  After you build up trust with characters, that is when they trust you back.  Spend a year or so working for a noble and they'll start to trust you as a potential candidate to do this or that.  Maybe they want you to go undercover as a spy for them in some other organization.  Their side of it:  they will pay you tremendously to do it, because it is that important to them to have a spy or a person working on the inside.  What do you get out of it, as a player?  You're now tied into two potential major things.  One side of things is everything that happens with x organization, the other is everything you're feeding to the noble.

Be corruptible.  Be willing to betray if it makes sense for your character.  Be willing to have things your character would kill and die for, and be willing to have things your character would not kill and die for.

[Lizzie]

I recommend re-reading Nyr's last post here. While I've already followed much of what he's suggested, there are even 2-word phrases in his post, that triggered ideas that I hadn't thought of previously.

Thanks Nyr.