NPC shopkeepers not buying stuff...

[Incognito]

There are times when you go up to an NPC shopkeeper and he's got too many of a particular item, and he won't buy any more of those from you.

Other times, the NPC shopkeeper is out of sids.

Then there are times when the NPC shopkeeper (who does buy goods regularly), just tells you something like "Nah, not today".

Understandably, these are measures to keep the economy realistic, while also putting a cap on PCs who might attempt to sell too many items to a shopkeeper and try to make a fortune overnight.

Would it be acceptable, if alternatively, PCs had a set limit - i.e. they could only sell lets say 5 items to each NPC shopkeeper over a certain period of time (lets say 24 hours RL)?

This would help PCs who actually havent sold anything to a particular shopkeeper in ages, and who might want to sell off goods that they've been waiting to get rid off, but keep finding that the shopkeepers are always out of sids, or, have too many of the item in question, or even that the NPC in question is not buying stuff at all during the current reboot.

The current scenario - where PCs who manage to log in right after a reboot or a crash, get to benefit by shopkeepers being flush with funds, and ready to buy up multiple items, whereas PCs who arrive at the scene later, are forced to sell only a small handful of the same item, IF the NPC shopkeeper does have funds left, is a bit unrealistic, and not too fair on an OOC level. Additionally, certain NPC shopkeepers who dont have funds or don't buy goods at all after a crash/reboot - are a further restriction.

In other words, can we please have some fair workaround to the problem, that stems from the current way the NPC shopkeepers have been coded, to regulate the economy? I'm not asking for a blanket removal of restrictions to PCs selling stuff, but I'm sure we can figure out something that is a more robust solution for all concerned, regardless of whether they log in nearer to a reboot or not.

Edit to add:
Arm's crafting, foraging and mercantile possibilities have multiplied greatly over the years, and we're definitely gonna have more and more PCs trying to sell stuff that they've crafted, grebbed, skinned or stolen. We really need a better system to regularize and channel this flow, such that it's beneficial to all equally, while simultaneously not making it ridiculously easy to churn out sids.

[FantasyWriter]

I think the rate at which shopkeepers sell to vNPCs should be doubled. That would solve most of these issues, or else people would just still complain about it not being enough.

[ShaLeah]

Hmmm. I don't think my view will be popular. Think I'll keep it to myself.

[FantasyWriter]

Hmmm. I don't think my view will be popular. Think I'll keep it to myself.

You're such a tease.

[MeTekillot]

I, too, am keeping my comment to yourself. Not because I think it'll be unpopular, I just want people to ask me about it.

[Lizzie]

Would it be acceptable, if alternatively, PCs had a set limit - i.e. they could only sell lets say 5 items to each NPC shopkeeper over a certain period of time (lets say 24 hours RL)?

This would help PCs who actually havent sold anything to a particular shopkeeper in ages, and who might want to sell off goods that they've been waiting to get rid off, but keep finding that the shopkeepers are always out of sids, or, have too many of the item in question, or even that the NPC in question is not buying stuff at all during the current reboot.

The current scenario - where PCs who manage to log in right after a reboot or a crash, get to benefit by shopkeepers being flush with funds, and ready to buy up multiple items, whereas PCs who arrive at the scene later, are forced to sell only a small handful of the same item, IF the NPC shopkeeper does have funds left, is a bit unrealistic, and not too fair on an OOC level. Additionally, certain NPC shopkeepers who dont have funds or don't buy goods at all after a crash/reboot - are a further restriction.

In other words, can we please have some fair workaround to the problem, that stems from the current way the NPC shopkeepers have been coded, to regulate the economy? I'm not asking for a blanket removal of restrictions to PCs selling stuff, but I'm sure we can figure out something that is a more robust solution for all concerned, regardless of whether they log in nearer to a reboot or not.

I've been asking for this kind of thing for years. We're either told by other players "it's fine the way it is" or the thread turns into a thread about how the rich get richer and the poor are doing it wrong, and then how the rich are doing it wrong, and then a rant against independents, etc. etc. etc.

[Malken]

nerf purplish salters

[BleakOne]

nerf purplish salters

nerf clay

[slvrmoontiger]

Okay, most the time that NPC's say they don't have the 'sid is because the game recently crashed and everyone and their mother, brother, sister, cousin, etc is running around like a rooster with its head cut off trying to sell things... I know I've done this before. Most recently I don't. Its not very IC'ly to use an OOC even like a server crash/maintenance/whatever to sell stuff to shopkeepers.

Next part I would have to say if a shopkeeper is full on a certain item to keep an eye out... Depending who is around this could be because people are hunting/crafting more often than they should... Come on people use a little realism on this one. You shouldn't be hunting every single day, its just not real. Being a crafter doesn't mean you craft all day and all night now 9 hours a day and most of the week and only take time to stop to sell stuff and by new materials. I've seen both happen before. Those who are doing this aren't RPing correctly and are missing out on a big part of the game.

If you find that you are constantly crafting or constantly hunting and think to yourself "Jee I don't even know when the last time I sat in a tavern just to talk, socialize, drink, or get involved with a plot or things going on around me." Well maybe its time to do that.

Next part five of each item isn't all that much and you would think that if people are buying materials to craft with and people are buying crafted items so they can keep living then these would sell quicker.

Those are my thoughts on this... I probably should have been like ShaLeah though as I suspect I'm going to get a lot of gruff from people by saying this.

[Lizzie]

Except that isn't the problem Slvrmoontiger. Here's a typical example of what some of us perceive as the problem:

NPC Amos buys raw materials. Not all raw materials - he's kind of picky and you might bring him an untanned hide and for some reason, he doesn't recognize it as a raw material and he'll scold you for it. But hey - it's his shop, he'll buy OTHER untanned hides, just not those. So you now have to find a different shop for those 2 hides you have in your pack. You then present him with a gurth shell. He's buying. Except - he can't afford to give you the 40 sids he offered. So now you're stuck with 2 hides, and a gurth shell. You also have a dozen total of various stones that you know Malik will buy next door.

So you bring them next door and Malik offers you 20 sids for three different stones you have. But - he doesn't have the 20 sids for even one of them. So now you're stuck with 2 hides, a gurth shell, and a dozen stones. And you still haven't earned your stable fee yet.

Thankfully, you know how to make arrows. So you go out the gates, greb a few branches, and use a few of those stones you can't sell to make a few arrows. You bring them to the arrow-buying shop, and Talia offers you 40 sids for all three. Except - she doesn't have the sids to pay for them.

So now, you're stuck with 2 hides, a gurth shell, 9 random stones, and three arrows. And it's not even dusk yet, and you haven't earned your stable fee.

So okay - you bring all this crap to your apartment and shove it in the bag with the stuff you couldn't sell 2 RL days ago, or the 2 RL days before that. You skip around - every other real-life day, you don't try to greb or hunt, you tavern-sit and plot and scheme and hang out and mudsex instead.

By the end of the RL week, you have 2 bags of stuff that the NPCs won't buy, and you're out 60 sids for stable fees.

And so do 15 other people in your character's area, including the GMH Junior Agent, who is trying to clear up space in his warehouse and giving his apprentice crafter a little bonus by asking her to sell some shit off in one of the non-clan shops.

That's why I - and apparently Incognito, and a few others over the years, would love it if the system would allow for -each PC- to sell up to a certain limit of each item during some determined window of time, per NPC traders. Instead of the NPC only buying 5 gurth shells, period - he'll buy 2 from EACH person who tries to sell them to him. The code would be an identification issue, sort of like rents in apartments. The agent remembers the PC, and remembers how long it's been since there's been a payout. The system already exists. Instead of giving a key in exchange for sids, the NPC would give sids in exchange for items. Up to 2, or 3, or 20, or however many the staff feels is a playable and not ridiculous amount of each item per...period of time.

[FantasyWriter]

I've actually noticed a few NPC merchants lately with almost no goods left, but still almost no coins left to purchase with. I chock this up to thieves, but I could be wrong.

[Thunkkin]

I just want all those dumb Nak shops to stay open all night. Particularly the ones that close in the late afternoon. Bastards.

I can't count the number of times I've had a character standing there howling in rage as the shopkeeper suddenly packs up.

It would allow more sales to vnpcs, too.

[Fujikoma]

Some of the NPC shopkeepers are notoriously difficult to deal with. The rest of them are more reasonable, but yeah, depending on the number of players playing the game, this could upset a balance.

And the rush to go sell everything at a reboot that you've been hoarding for a RL week or so, I understand that feeling. And, seeing how reboots seem to be happening less frequently... or maybe I'm just not around when they happen...

[slvrmoontiger]

Except that isn't the problem Slvrmoontiger. Here's a typical example of what some of us perceive as the problem:

NPC Amos buys raw materials. Not all raw materials - he's kind of picky and you might bring him an untanned hide and for some reason, he doesn't recognize it as a raw material and he'll scold you for it. But hey - it's his shop, he'll buy OTHER untanned hides, just not those. So you now have to find a different shop for those 2 hides you have in your pack. You then present him with a gurth shell. He's buying. Except - he can't afford to give you the 40 sids he offered. So now you're stuck with 2 hides, and a gurth shell. You also have a dozen total of various stones that you know Malik will buy next door.

So you bring them next door and Malik offers you 20 sids for three different stones you have. But - he doesn't have the 20 sids for even one of them. So now you're stuck with 2 hides, a gurth shell, and a dozen stones. And you still haven't earned your stable fee yet.

Thankfully, you know how to make arrows. So you go out the gates, greb a few branches, and use a few of those stones you can't sell to make a few arrows. You bring them to the arrow-buying shop, and Talia offers you 40 sids for all three. Except - she doesn't have the sids to pay for them.

So now, you're stuck with 2 hides, a gurth shell, 9 random stones, and three arrows. And it's not even dusk yet, and you haven't earned your stable fee.

So okay - you bring all this crap to your apartment and shove it in the bag with the stuff you couldn't sell 2 RL days ago, or the 2 RL days before that. You skip around - every other real-life day, you don't try to greb or hunt, you tavern-sit and plot and scheme and hang out and mudsex instead.

By the end of the RL week, you have 2 bags of stuff that the NPCs won't buy, and you're out 60 sids for stable fees.

And so do 15 other people in your character's area, including the GMH Junior Agent, who is trying to clear up space in his warehouse and giving his apprentice crafter a little bonus by asking her to sell some shit off in one of the non-clan shops.

That's why I - and apparently Incognito, and a few others over the years, would love it if the system would allow for -each PC- to sell up to a certain limit of each item during some determined window of time, per NPC traders. Instead of the NPC only buying 5 gurth shells, period - he'll buy 2 from EACH person who tries to sell them to him. The code would be an identification issue, sort of like rents in apartments. The agent remembers the PC, and remembers how long it's been since there's been a payout. The system already exists. Instead of giving a key in exchange for sids, the NPC would give sids in exchange for items. Up to 2, or 3, or 20, or however many the staff feels is a playable and not ridiculous amount of each item per...period of time.

Lizzie,

I think your blowing this WAY out of proportion. I have NEVER seen it as bad as you say. Usually if you go back several RL hours later they have the 'sids... Most certainly they do 24 RL hours later, unless as I stated people are selling more than they are buying and a lot of hunting is going on. Even during times when crashes were happening once or many times a day not every shopkeeper would be out of 'sid at the same time. There are always other merchants that buy the same things... Just they may not offer as much for them. Talk to PC crafters. Start a rumor: You hear a couple drunks discussing at the bar, "Hey you know Amos is a hunter and a grebber and he has sever high quality items for sale." NPC Merchants are what they are and have been for years. Its fortunate they are even there to buy items. Unless someone is running around like mad selling stuff to them or the game has recently rebooted then they usually have the 'sid and if not then go back a few RL hours later and I know they will. Unless you are extremely unlucky with when you go I don't see it being as bad as you stated.

[Malken]

Be the change.

[BleakOne]

Be the change.

In this case, the pocket change. Give it to 'em shopkeepers. 

[Harmless]

>score

You are Liam McQueen of many people.
You have been playing for 54 days and 12 hours.

>balance

The Nenyuki banker says, in Sirihish:
 "You have 25,000 coins in your account which have been drained from the markets until your death, when we plan to feed it to the Gaj."

You think, feeling accomplished:
"Excellent."

Edit: I don't necessarily think merchants should stop hoarding coins in the bank. If they can hoard it must be a feature not a bug. Just making a funny joke.

[Incognito]

Ok, so some folks responded by saying that they couldn't care less - their apathy has been noted.

Others mentioned that they prefer not to answer - and their restraint is appreciated.

What we don't have is : a workable solution.

We currently have a system which has been put into place, to deter power crafters or power grebbers from abusing code and making a bazillion sids overnight, and that's all well and good. But that really doesn't solve the problem for genuine PCs who wanna sell small quantities of goods, periodically, and end up finding that they are unable to do so, because of the above discussed problems.

Here's something to put things in perspective:
Lets say, someone someday decides, that mages are power casting, and need to be deterred, and implements a system like this:
The total mana available in the world, suddenly gets quantified. Perhaps to 500 spells x 50 mana.
Now, what happens is, after a reboot, everyone can start casting freely, but as soon as 500 spells have been cast, the mana available in the world reduces, now there's only 150 mana left in each zone of the world, and that too regens over mud timers.
So, if you're in Allanak, and you cast 3 spells, the other mages will not be able to cast any spells, until the mud timer elapses further.

I think you get the picture.....

A merchant or a grebber having goods he's unable to sell, is just like a mage with mana, but unable to cast (just to give a rough comparison, based on Guild selection).

The issue which I think some people haven't picked up on here is - this is a problem which is created by one PC (or a few PCs), but ends up affecting all other PCs in the game.

I know this might sound like a whine, or someone trying to just beat on a dead horse, but its really something that's not a great way to solve a problem, which can probably be tackled through other ways.....

[The Lonely Hunter]

The system is inconvenient at times, sure. I get frustrated at it as a player.

That said, Zalanthas is a harsh world and I think people are expecting too much. Life is hard; maybe you can't make up the stable fees. Life on Zalanthas is considered easy if you have a steady supply of water and food in your stomach. Storing the things you can't sell in your apartment? Having an apartment in its own is a rarity, sleep in a public spot like the majority of the population does and maybe you can afford to have that mount (another luxury) stabled.

Hate away but I think that there is too much of a sense of entitlement and people are getting away from the gritty harshness of what Zalanthas is supposed to be. If the NPCs, people that own shops, can't afford to pay you or their business is too slow to buy another pair of boots, that should tell you something.

[MeTekillot]

but my blue salt crystals

[Incognito]

The system is inconvenient at times, sure. I get frustrated at it as a player.

That said, Zalanthas is a harsh world and I think people are expecting too much. Life is hard; maybe you can't make up the stable fees. Life on Zalanthas is considered easy if you have a steady supply of water and food in your stomach. Storing the things you can't sell in your apartment? Having an apartment in its own is a rarity, sleep in a public spot like the majority of the population does and maybe you can afford to have that mount (another luxury) stabled.

Hate away but I think that there is too much of a sense of entitlement and people are getting away from the gritty harshness of what Zalanthas is supposed to be. If the NPCs, people that own shops, can't afford to pay you or their business is too slow to buy another pair of boots, that should tell you something.

Fair point indeed - well put The Loney Hunter!

[slvrmoontiger]

I just have a few thoughts on this now after reading the comments this morning.

1) There is NO such thing as FAIR on Zalanthas.

This is taken directly from the Hunter Roleplay help file for brevity's sake I'm taking the last paragraph and posting that alone:

Being a hunter is by definition not a lucrative occupation. If you are selling massive amounts of hides and becoming ludicrously wealthy than you are overdoing it. If you are struggling at some points but in general managing to get by, then you are truly enjoying the experience of playing a hunter in the harsh world that is Armageddon.

2) Perhaps its not the system that needs to be changed, perhaps its your idea of what Armageddon is about needs to be changed... If you want to be rich and powerful apply for the several various Calls that go out for that type of character. Currently, there's a Call for Allanaki Nobles.

3) The comparison given between 'gickers and hunters/merchants/grebbers/whatever is completely absurd... Comparing the guilds would be like comparing jallal fruit to 'tok meat. People playing as 'gickers either have karma, meaning they have a proven track record of being a good player (good players usually don't go power playing all of a sudden) or they have special app for one, in which case I suspect they are being watched quite carefully by staff (I could be wrong here, but I doubt it).

4) If you don't like the guild you're playing feel free to store your character and create a new one of a more preferable guild. Its always an option.

Yes, I can honestly say there have been times I've been frustrated with shopkeepers and how you work to get a deal and suddenly they are "Sorry don't have the 'sid." or something to the like. Would it be nice that they tell you up front before that they don't have the 'sid? Well sure it would be and it has been suggested and from what has been posted by staff in the past it could be in the works (or not). I HONESTLY have never seen anything that left me bitching or holding onto items I was trying to sell for more than a RL week due to merchants not having the 'sid. Yes there are items that merchants always have an abundance of, those things are common items that get hunted regularly or made regularly, or grebbed regularly. Its part of the game.

[Synthesis]

I've never had more than a temporary problem selling things in Allanak or Tuluk, either with subclass crafters or with merchants.  I suspect this might be a perception issue related to peak hours and very particular shops...but I've never really experienced the stated problem, and I've played a couple of long-term fully-branched indie-(ish) merchants that basically did nothing but constantly buy and sell.

Also, keep in mind that you can haggle the offered price -down- to drain the NPC merchant of his last available coins, if you absolutely have to get rid of stuff.  You can actually game the system this way if you're playing a merchant, because the raw material cost:crafted item sell price ratio of some things is so low that you can give them away for free to an NPC shop, wait for a vNPC or NPC sale, then sell something else later.

Also, if you're a merchant or have the haggle skill, you can purchase high-value items at extreme discounts (if you know how to haggle properly) and resell the stuff to PCs for more than you paid, but less than what the shop would charge.  So if you have 5 shitty swords to sell, you can buy one awesome sword, sell your 5 shitty swords to the shop to get your 'sid back, then sell the awesome sword to a PC later...or just sell it back to the shop later for a minor loss (while maintaining a large gain on the overall transaction).

You also have to check the shops frequently.  If all you do is go around once a day at dusk after you finish hunting...you're probably missing the boat.

[armacc]

I wouldn't mind it if the NPC's had a bit more coin on them, it can be frustrating to work all ig day and come in and not be able to sell something, even after you've tried to sell it to pcs. Especially the higher end items you -know- irl the merchant would be cutting off his right hand to have.  I also wish that you could trade for things that might cost a bit more than the item you have or pick up the difference. Like, say you have a little coin and a whatsit skin and you want a whoosit hide and if you combined your coin with the merchant's offer for the whatsit skin, you'd have just enough.

Example: offer 20 skin for hide


ETA: Also 69th post...the immature kid in me just giggled a little... 

[Eyeball]

I'd like to see NPC merchants just tell you when they can't afford to buy something.

Something like:

> offer stone 44
The rotund, boyish merchant says, 'I don't have that many coins. Make me a better offer'.
> offer stone 20
The rotund, boyish merchant says, 'I don't have that many coins. Make me a better offer'.
> offer stone 16
The rotund, boyish merchant says, 'We have a deal.'
>

Instead of haggling furiously and raising what he's willing to pay, then:
> offer ...
> offer ...
> offer ...

  etc. etc. etc.

finally:
> barter
The rotund, boyish merchant says, 'I cant afford that.'
The rotund, boyish merchant says, grabbing his crotch, 'In. Your. Face. Boooyaaaahhh!'
> cast 'mon un spell of doom' merchant