Weight range for humans

[bmburmas]

Hey! I'm new, so sorry if this is a stupid thing to bring up/ this is the wrong place to discuss it, but shouldn't the weight range for humans be significantly widened?
If we take a stone to equal a kilogram, then 6 ten-stone (min. weight) would be ~130 pounds, and 9 ten-stone (max. weight) would be ~200 pounds.
However, any large, well-muscled soldier should weigh well over 200 pounds, and may even weigh closer to 300.
Conversely, no emaciated beggar on the street is going to weigh 130 pounds unless he is very tall. For instance, I am (irl) 67 inches tall, and I only weigh 115 pounds. Granted, I am pretty damn skinny, but I'm not starving, as one would assume many Zalanthans are.
Am I just nitpicking here? I don't know if weight has any coded effects, but if it does, I'd say it'd be pretty useful to implement a wider weight range at chargen.

[Patuk]

I'd not mind it, but then Arm has a massive amount of people at max height/weight with bodybuilder mdescs anyway. I wouldn't mind the weight range broadening, but I doubt it'd change very much.

I still think endurance at least should not be tied to weight/height though.

[RogueGunslinger]

Yes, please. Current range blows and doesn't take into account fat and skinny people, or even just big, muscular people.

Height ranges don't entirely make sense either.

[Narf]

Yes, please. Current range blows and doesn't take into account fat and skinny people, or even just big, muscular people.

Height ranges don't entirely make sense either.

I agree. The smallest you can be, even as a 13 year old, is 60 kilos (132 pounds).

That seems like a pretty sizeable thirteen year old. In fact, isn't 140 pounds for an adult in a pre-industrial civilization considered about average for males?

[Lizzie]

Zalanthan gravity is different, and Zalanthan bones are denser, as are Zalanthan muscles. On the planet Earth, these heights/weights would certainly be incongruent with the notion of emaciation/obesity but in the world of Zalanthas, they're spot-on exactly how they should be.

Having said that - I for one would like to see one more "10-stone's worth" of weight in each race, so that people can pick the one in the middle. Presently, that isn't possible. You're either 1-2 10-stones on the skinny side, or 1-2 10-stones on the fat side.

[valeria]

I would love a wider range, and being able to pick decimals.  6.2 stones, or whatever.

[bmburmas]

Zalanthan gravity is different, and Zalanthan bones are denser, as are Zalanthan muscles. On the planet Earth, these heights/weights would certainly be incongruent with the notion of emaciation/obesity but in the world of Zalanthas, they're spot-on exactly how they should be.

Having said that - I for one would like to see one more "10-stone's worth" of weight in each race, so that people can pick the one in the middle. Presently, that isn't possible. You're either 1-2 10-stones on the skinny side, or 1-2 10-stones on the fat side.

If Zalanthan bones and muscles are denser, then it makes even less sense how low the maximum weight for humans is. I fail to grasp your point.

[Barsook]

I would love a wider range, and being able to pick decimals.  6.2 stones, or whatever.

[Harmless]

zalanthan 13 year olds are basically the equivalent of earth 18 year olds. *wink wink*

[Eluin]

I would love a wider range, and being able to pick decimals.  6.2 stones, or whatever.

This. From when I first joined. (less than a month ago)

[Refugee]

Yeah, the weight limits don't match up to the height limits very well.

[Cutthroat]

I would love a wider range, and being able to pick decimals.  6.2 stones, or whatever.

Or alternately, being able to put your weight in pounds or kilograms and letting Ginka do the (relatively simple) math to convert it to stones (even if it becomes a decimal number).

[Barzalene]

Not stupid. It should be better.

[whitt]

If Zalanthan bones and muscles are denser, then it makes even less sense how low the maximum weight for humans is. I fail to grasp your point.

You're putting the em-FA-sis on the wrong sill-AH-bull.

Perhaps the problem is there are too many "Ahnold" mdescs out there?  I'd look to the body types of desert-survivors and folks that live off what they can actually scour up.  Perhaps players need to consider that without the mad excess of meat proteins in modern life, there is simply no way for a Zalanthan to sustain a weight over the ranges given or to survive the rigors of a PC lifestyle without at least meeting those minimums.

[Harmless]

Yes, again, the real problem lies in how everyone else is playing the game, I almost forgotted

[Patuk]

Yes, again, the real problem lies in how everyone else is playing the game, I almost forgotted

At which point do you think commenting on other people's RP becomes acceptable? When it's about issues you care about more personally?

[slvrmoontiger]

I think being able to put in pounds or kilograms and letting Ginka do the math to convert with decimal places to the hundreths place (2 places beyond the decimal point) Would be good. I think widening the range would also be useful. I've always wanted to play a fat person to see how it would go but the only way to do that is to make someone as short as you can and put in the highest range. That just isn't allowing for customization of your character.

[Barzalene]

If 6 is the lowest weight in a resource poor world it should be a number in pounds that reflects that.
But what if you're not emaciated, just thin? 7 ten-stone? That's 135. Reasonable for a medium sized American. Downright rich for a 5' Zalanthas. Perfect for Lady Borsail. But for anyone else too much.

Gravity and bone density are incalculable. Don't factor.

This isn't game breaking. I get by very nicely by refusing to think about it. But that doesn't make it not broken. Let's not pretend its a feature. Its an unfortunate holdover from last century. Its just not so ugly it needs to be prioritized

[whitt]

This isn't game breaking. I get by very nicely by refusing to think about it. But that doesn't make it not broken. Let's not pretend its a feature. Its an unfortunate holdover from last century. Its just not so ugly it needs to be prioritized

See this is where I actually find myself. 

Emaciatedly thin?  Set your desc, pick the min, and role away.  Who's picking you up to be astonished that you weigh "So much more than I thought you would?" 

Or vice versa, who sees a "Corpulent Fat Slob is standing here" and needs to try and lift that just to make sure they picked max?

[ShaLeah]

Can we not go under or over the parameters suggested at creation? I've never tried but I've been tempted to several times.

[Delusion]

Can we not go under or over the parameters suggested at creation? I've never tried but I've been tempted to several times.

Don't think so. Then again, most of my characters are somewhere in the 5' range, but when I played a human PC that I would consider really freaking tall - not quite at the racial limit, but getting there - it turned out that there were still even taller humans around, so there must either have been a bunch of people over the limit or sitting right at it.

I would quite like to see the way we select weight to be changed a bit, anyway, to be a bit more granular and a bit wider ranging.

[valeria]

Can we not go under or over the parameters suggested at creation? I've never tried but I've been tempted to several times.

You can, with a spec app.

It just seems a little silly to have to spec app someone short and emaciated.  Which is basically what you would have to do with the current minimum weight compared to the minimum height.

[Lizzie]

Zalanthan gravity is different, and Zalanthan bones are denser, as are Zalanthan muscles. On the planet Earth, these heights/weights would certainly be incongruent with the notion of emaciation/obesity but in the world of Zalanthas, they're spot-on exactly how they should be.

Having said that - I for one would like to see one more "10-stone's worth" of weight in each race, so that people can pick the one in the middle. Presently, that isn't possible. You're either 1-2 10-stones on the skinny side, or 1-2 10-stones on the fat side.

If Zalanthan bones and muscles are denser, then it makes even less sense how low the maximum weight for humans is. I fail to grasp your point.

I'll simplify the point then:

Zalanthas is a fantasy world in a fantasy game. As such, it doesn't have to be realistic. It doesn't make a bit of difference how things are in real life, how real-life humans are, what real-life humans weigh - because this isn't real-life.

[Qzzrbl]

Any fiction that doesn't seem to follow any real rules, made-up or otherwise, is typically bad fiction, in my experience.

I mean, sure.

It's not an absolutely huge deal, the game works as-is, but crapping on the ideas and thoughts of people who enjoy things making sense within a fictional world with "It doesn't even matter, it's a fantasy world!" is kinda poor form. Throwing out statements that would conflict with several other things as fact doesn't do much good either.

Would be better to just let them get their thoughts out there-- after all, any changes that may or may not come of it wouldn't bother you any.

It's just a fantasy world, right?

[Lizzie]

When someone uses real-world physics and biology to argue for or against MUD mechanics, I'll keep reminding them that MUD mechanics don't have to comply with real-world physics and biology.

You can want to change mechanics because you want more options. That is a sensible argument. You can want to change mechanics because you feel it makes more sense for short characters to be able to be skinny characters, and not only tall characters. That is a sensible argument. But wanting to change mechanics because in real life it isn't possible for people to be this tall/this fat or that short/that skinny or whatever combination - is not a sensible argument.

[Qzzrbl]

Alrighty, I get what you're on about. 

Still though. The fewer hoops you gotta jump through to suspend disbelief, the better imho.

[FantasyWriter]

I pay much more attention to a main description than I do assess -v.
Generally the only time I ever assess -v someone is to get their relative age.

[bmburmas]

When someone uses real-world physics and biology to argue for or against MUD mechanics, I'll keep reminding them that MUD mechanics don't have to comply with real-world physics and biology.

Obviously MUD mechanics don't have to comply with real-world science, but unless there's some sort of compelling reason for them not to comply, it makes no sense to have the game differ so drastically from human anatomy.

Say, for instance, Zalanthan humans had two toes on each foot. That would be stupid, wouldn't it? Zalanthan humans are HUMANS, they are Homo Sapiens Sapiens and their anatomical irregularities make for a lessened roleplaying experience.

Realize that the current limitations mean that the largest human only weighs 1.5 times as much as the smallest human. Does that make any sense at all? There is literally no animal species on Earth for which the weight range is so narrow.

[Lizzie]

When someone uses real-world physics and biology to argue for or against MUD mechanics, I'll keep reminding them that MUD mechanics don't have to comply with real-world physics and biology.

Obviously MUD mechanics don't have to comply with real-world science, but unless there's some sort of compelling reason for them not to comply, it makes no sense to have the game differ so drastically from human anatomy.

Say, for instance, Zalanthan humans had two toes on each foot. That would be stupid, wouldn't it? Zalanthan humans are HUMANS, they are Homo Sapiens Sapiens and their anatomical irregularities make for a lessened roleplaying experience.

Realize that the current limitations mean that the largest human only weighs 1.5 times as much as the smallest human. Does that make any sense at all? There is literally no animal species on Earth for which the weight range is so narrow.

Again, it doesn't have to make sense when compared to humans on the planet Earth, because it isn't humans on the planet Earth. If you're having that much trouble wrapping your mind around the concept that we're dealing with fantasy characters in an alien fantasy world, call them Zalanthans instead of Humans. They're not humans as we know of them on the planet Earth. They're fantasy characters that the admin of this game originally assigned the name "Human" to the race. Dwarves on Zalanthas are nothing like dwarves on earth, and you're not arguing that dwarves should have hair, and not have a focus, are you? Because - there ARE dwarves on the planet earth. They're humans, with a genetic disorder called Dwarfism.

Since you're not having any trouble separating the concept of fantasy fictional zalanthan dwarves from the concept of earth dwarves, I'm sure you will eventually learn to separate the concept of fantasy fictional zalanthan humans from the concept of earth humans.

[Patuk]

Stop arguing against change for the sake of it already.. Increasing the weight range for characters takes no more effort than the animation of a simple npc, and it makes more sense for the human weight range to be broadened than for these mental gymnastics you're trying to put us through here. You're coming off as silly and catty more than sensible here, when the thread's proposed idea isn't one that'd break your experience in any meaningful way at all.

[bmburmas]

When someone uses real-world physics and biology to argue for or against MUD mechanics, I'll keep reminding them that MUD mechanics don't have to comply with real-world physics and biology.

Obviously MUD mechanics don't have to comply with real-world science, but unless there's some sort of compelling reason for them not to comply, it makes no sense to have the game differ so drastically from human anatomy.

Say, for instance, Zalanthan humans had two toes on each foot. That would be stupid, wouldn't it? Zalanthan humans are HUMANS, they are Homo Sapiens Sapiens and their anatomical irregularities make for a lessened roleplaying experience.

Realize that the current limitations mean that the largest human only weighs 1.5 times as much as the smallest human. Does that make any sense at all? There is literally no animal species on Earth for which the weight range is so narrow.

Again, it doesn't have to make sense when compared to humans on the planet Earth, because it isn't humans on the planet Earth. If you're having that much trouble wrapping your mind around the concept that we're dealing with fantasy characters in an alien fantasy world, call them Zalanthans instead of Humans. They're not humans as we know of them on the planet Earth. They're fantasy characters that the admin of this game originally assigned the name "Human" to the race. Dwarves on Zalanthas are nothing like dwarves on earth, and you're not arguing that dwarves should have hair, and not have a focus, are you? Because - there ARE dwarves on the planet earth. They're humans, with a genetic disorder called Dwarfism.

Since you're not having any trouble separating the concept of fantasy fictional zalanthan dwarves from the concept of earth dwarves, I'm sure you will eventually learn to separate the concept of fantasy fictional zalanthan humans from the concept of earth humans.

The comparison with dwarves is so ridiculous that I'm not even going to address it. You know why that argument isn't valid.

Regardless of whether Zalanthan humans are actually the same species as Terran humans, they were obviously intended to be as similar to us as possible. If you can justify Zalanthans being different from us in any randomly picked physical regard just because the code is written that way, then there is no reason that they should be identical to us in every other sense, nor is there a reason that they should even be called humans.

Furthermore, it simply is not possible for a species to develop in such a way that its largest individual member is only 1.5 times as large as its smallest individual member (unless that species is on the verge of extinction and has an accordingly small sample size).

[FantasyWriter]

Is anyone here actually stating that what we have currently is realistic, or are you just arguing that it doesn't need to be changed?
All I see is people saying that the ranges should be expanded to allow for greater flexibility and more realism and then people respond with psudo-science?

Raise your hand if you do not want a change, and please state why...

The short bearded man waits.

[whitt]

I don't want this change because I don't see a compelling need for it.

Are the current weight ranges perfect?  Not necessarily.  Nor are they immersion breaking unless you actively seek to make them so.

Would I trade a single "simple NPC animation" for a change that, I'll bet, the majority of the player base would never notice?  Given that I work in IT?  Not a chance. 

This "simple" change likely impacts all sorts of things from armor sizing to combat mechanics that compare relative sizes to potential scripts triggered by the weight of the individual in the room, to Amos only knows what else. 

To be followed shortly by the time consuming wave of requests to staff if the change was implemented from "Oh my character should be a size 0 now that it's available" to "I picked the biggest size I could, but it wasn't big enough and now I can be bigger" to "Hey, I don't want one of the new sizes, but since you're changing everyone's size..."

In short, what's the real ROI here?  You can assess -v someone with a little more granularity?

[Cutthroat]

I don't want this change because I don't see a compelling need for it.

Are the current weight ranges perfect?  Not necessarily.  Nor are they immersion breaking unless you actively seek to make them so.

Would I trade a single "simple NPC animation" for a change that, I'll bet, the majority of the player base would never notice?  Given that I work in IT?  Not a chance. 

This "simple" change likely impacts all sorts of things from armor sizing to combat mechanics that compare relative sizes to potential scripts triggered by the weight of the individual in the room, to Amos only knows what else. 

To be followed shortly by the time consuming wave of requests to staff if the change was implemented from "Oh my character should be a size 0 now that it's available" to "I picked the biggest size I could, but it wasn't big enough and now I can be bigger" to "Hey, I don't want one of the new sizes, but since you're changing everyone's size..."

In short, what's the real ROI here?  You can assess -v someone with a little more granularity?

It's not an urgent change or even a necessary one. But any adjustment to the weight range would still offer players more of a choice, even if it is a minor one. With regards to the work put in and ROI, it's a bit strange discussing those sorts of things about a proposed coded change to the game without any knowledge of the code beyond speculation. The only thing we have perspective to talk about is what it would add as players. And from the perspective of a player, it's a relatively small change but one that adds a little more variety.

As for players sending requests to staff, there were far bigger changes enacted that players with living characters had no chance of getting - direction sense skill, extended subguilds, and probably some other things I forgot - so I really doubt that changing the weight range will result in an overload of requests asking for the weight to be changed since staff could just say that the ranges apply from characters created from now on.

[bartenderer]

Remember that height and weight affect skills also though. I imagine the current limits will remain the current limits for balance. I once had spec apped a delf that was much taller than the tallest end of the limit and it had some interesting affects on combat.

[Lizzie]

I'd just like to make a "medium" character whose numeric values fit their mdesc. Someone right in the middle of the height and weight for their race. It's not codedly possible because there are -four- weight values per race. You need five to choose the one in the middle.

[Narf]

I doubt it would disrupt code all that much. Halflings used to be a playable race, so the code should still support small characters. Elves are a playable race, so it would support larger characters.

[whitt]

I doubt it would disrupt code all that much.

Siddies for everytime this has been said.

[RogueGunslinger]

I doubt it would disrupt code all that much.

Siddies for everytime this has been said.

It's up to staff to decide what is worth their time or not. Speculating is useless.

[whitt]

It's up to staff to decide what is worth their time or not. Speculating is useless.

Totally agree, though I was commenting much more on the number of times anyone in IT will hear variations of "How big of a deal can it be" in their daily lives. 

[Harmless]

I don't give a rat's ass one way or the other

[X-D]

I don't really think the range should be increased...if you want something outside the norm, special app.

I Do however think the current range should be in stones not tenstone.