Thread Split: What to Wear?

[Kryos]

So, instead of piling on a new player question thread, I thought it better to encourage discussion of what to wear to a new thread to reduce clutter and increase efficacy in the answering of questions for future new players.

Someone mentioned a PC running around in nothing but a codpiece, and I mentioned for me, that would be an display of how to break my immersion in a tremendously potent way.  I used some snarkier words than I should have, but the point remains:  I'm convinced most PCs who travel outside city walls should/would be in head to toe clothing.

A link was posted to some hunters in the plains of Africa, I believe, doing a run down kill shirtless.  Here's my thoughts on why I'm not convinced.

Out of Wikipedia "Desert" page:



That is a real desert, not plains.  The people there are garbed liberally, head to toe, hell, they're even wearing the color black which seems to draw in a lot of ire for some reason.  These are desert tribes, not plains hunters.

As for heavy armor, I contend that if you've ever had someone hit you with a weapon with the intention of hurting and or killing you, you would very quickly and fully grasp that any amount of suffering to heat is a trite experience compared to having the pain of a battered and broken body.

More even, armor stops blows from doing things like giving you ragged, open wounds that will quickly infect and turn to death.   A naked man would die of a paper cut one day.

Am I right?  Who knows, its a low fantasy game.  Does this mean mostly naked people running around would still break my immersion?  Absolutely, but I'm always glad to listen as to why I should change that thinking if anyone wants to discuss it.

[MeTekillot]

I accidentally punched myself in the face today so I can understand why people wear face masks.

[BleakOne]

I think it all comes down to the individual characters.

A tough-skinned dwarf would have no trouble braving the stinging sands in just a loincloth, or sweating under a layer of thick shell armour. Many other reasons could account for total lack of armour or heavy reliance on it, particularly for the nonhuman races and nonmundane classes.

A fancy noble's aide would probably not want to go down either of the 'extremes', and would opt for the usual desert wear.

The colour black collects heat more easily than any other colour, I think. White reflects light and gains less heat, or something.

I'm mostly in the 'just go with it' camp in this case.

[Bushranger]

Someone mentioned a PC running around in nothing but a codpiece, and I mentioned for me, that would be an display of how to break my immersion in a tremendously potent way.  I used some snarkier words than I should have, but the point remains:  I'm convinced most PCs who travel outside city walls should/would be in head to toe clothing.

Gage Gritshaw was a nutjob. He should not be used as an example of normal behavior of travelling the desert in nothing but a codpiece.

A link was posted to some hunters in the plains of Africa, I believe, doing a run down kill shirtless.  Here's my thoughts on why I'm not convinced.

Out of Wikipedia "Desert" page:



That is a real desert, not plains.  The people there are garbed liberally, head to toe, hell, they're even wearing the color black which seems to draw in a lot of ire for some reason.  These are desert tribes, not plains hunters.

I draw my thoughts on the subject from tribes like the Wangkangurru of the Simpson Desert or the Martu people in the Pilbarra. No Australian Aboriginal had full clothing until white colonization in the 1800s and these People and other tribes lived in real deserts. They did not run around exerting themselves in the hottest parts of the day like the people in your photo - they mostly lived around the watering holes, hunted small game in the morning and evening and gathered seeds from the desert grasses  around these small wells. This is why I have no trouble with Zalanthan tribal people (especially elves who are renowned for their skimpy outfits) not being completely garbed - especially the women, children and elders who mostly stick close to the camps and only hunt small game or forage for food during the cooler parts of the day.

I do agree that people who are out and active during the hottest parts of the day should, unless they're insane, be covered by at least a long, hooded cloak of some sort. It would be well known that exposure to the harsh sunlight is more damaging than the heat alone.

As for heavy armor, I contend that if you've ever had someone hit you with a weapon with the intention of hurting and or killing you, you would very quickly and fully grasp that any amount of suffering to heat is a trite experience compared to having the pain of a battered and broken body.

More even, armor stops blows from doing things like giving you ragged, open wounds that will quickly infect and turn to death.   A naked man would die of a paper cut one day.

As for heavy armor I believe this to be a personal choice, influenced by racial, tribal and personal tradition and experiences. I do agree that protection outweighs the concerns of heat especially when hunting things larger and more dangerous than skeet in direct combat. Arguments can be made that light armor, or no armor, and natural agility offer more protection than heavy armor - especially for elves. Again I do agree that naked (or near naked) should be left to the realm of the crazies and not the norm.

Am I right?  Who knows, its a low fantasy game.  Does this mean mostly naked people running around would still break my immersion?  Absolutely, but I'm always glad to listen as to why I should change that thinking if anyone wants to discuss it.

Are you right? Yes and no. Yes, people should be covered if their active and out during the hottest parts of the day. No, I don't consider it immersion breaking if some tribes are known for skimpy outfits or the occasional nutcase like Gage Gritshaw fighting in nothing but a loincloth. Almost everyone I've seen, from the Blackwings in their thongs and halter tops to Gage himself, have realistic reasons for doing what they've done (even if it is mental instability), and most of them I've witnessed have worn at least a cloak when they're out in the desert to cover them under Suk-Krath.

(Also I consider ALL dwarves and their focuses to be nutcases, crazies or mentally unstable)

[Harmless]

There's absolutely nothing that says that Gage Grimshaw was a paragon of Armageddon cool. Now, I never got to play with this supposed hero, but a lot of the time I dislike who most people in this game think are cool or good, so I bet I wouldn't have liked Gage's concept much either. Anyway, that's neither here nor there.

Take it IG; for anyone you don't like for what they wear you ought to be typing this:

>kill naked.douchebag

And just be done with it. Are we done here?

[Cutthroat]

Gage Gritshaw was not right in the head. People always seem to remember the codpiece and boots and Byn cloak and go, that's so cool. But people forget that his answer to most questions was "I'm Gage Gritshaw", and that he was particularly violent even for a Zalanthan. He was pretty crazy. I don't know if he wore a cloak during a fierce sandstorm or just ducked his head, said "I'm Gage Gritshaw" and just accepted the stinging sand swirling around him. And that's okay. His player played him well for what his intent was, for what little I saw of it and still remember, given that his character was from 2007. But it's hardly as if he was the only well-played character of that time period, just one of the more memorable ones. That's ultimately what this game comes down to. You play a character largely with an intention of what you want to portray, and you do everything you can for that portrayal to stick.

A big part of that is indeed equipment, since that's the main thing besides the description when people do the most basic interaction towards you, "look". A signet ring; a number of weapons and sheaths; whether you're wearing chitin, leather, or cloth; that says a lot about your character in the briefest of glances. If you happen to be naked, that says a lot about your character too. But it doesn't immediately say anything about you as a player.

As for armor, it's a matter of style. The Fighting Styles documentation lays out pretty quickly who typically uses certain types of armor and weapons. That doesn't mean a southerner can't wear heavy armor or that a Tuluki can't wear leather, but means that any character with a combat-based background most likely learned to fight in the local style. The docs more or less compensate for the fact that there aren't any "heavy armor" or "light armor" skills in the game. I'm sure if there were such skills, and new Tuluk characters got a boost to heavy armor at the beginning and Allanakis/Red Stormers got a boost to light armor, more people would roleplay appropriately than the many who already do because the code would reinforce it better. But we have to take what we can get for now and just try our best with the information we have on hand.

The lack of comfort provided by heavy armor is represented by the stamina maluses (or just a non-existence of a bonus) that most pieces give you when you wear them, whereas more comfortable pieces give you bonuses. That, to me, seems like how the game handles concerns related to armor and the heat in the world. It doesn't mean that it's jarring to wear heavy armor (even all the time), but just that characters who do wear it all the time already get a coded a trade-off.

[FreeRangeVestric]

What was on the video is in fact the 'Kalahari desert,' and I think there are environments on Zalanthas that would be comparable to it.

Personally, if I'm (begrudgingly) willing to give the concession that some dude can cross a mile or two of desert in the blink of an eye to 'kill (me),' I'm not going to get upset about the fact that he was only wearing a loincloth while doing so. There are far, far less realistic fish to fry than this, in my eyes. Some of them aren't worth cooking at all, and I think this is one of them.

[Wish]

(Loose) black clothing is actually favored in desert cultures because of its ability to act as an air conditioner of sorts.  I can't remember the exact scientific details, but it has something to do with the fabric absorbing heat and the air trapped within the loose folds of cloth rises upward as it warms.  This causes the clothing/air to move/circulate, and dry the perspiration on the skin for a cooling effect.  I think.  Synthesis?

Form fitting back leather pants are another story.

[QuillDipper]

Of my very few characters I've created, three wore no shirts. They would wear cloaks or open robes, but always had their gleaming chests visible to the world. This might seem like a bad idea in a desert because of sun issues, but then again, you can spend several days having breakfast with someone in this game.

Otherwise I just play it by ear.

[Desertman]

That's interesting breakfast you're riding. Give me your boots.

[FantasyWriter]

Gritshaw's mental instability was one of his most attractive qualities.

Also when someone is naked... they have NOTHING to loose, and all know how deadly that can be.

[Hicksville Hoochie]

(Loose) black clothing is actually favored in desert cultures because of its ability to act as an air conditioner of sorts.  I can't remember the exact scientific details, but it has something to do with the fabric absorbing heat and the air trapped within the loose folds of cloth rises upward as it warms.  This causes the clothing/air to move/circulate, and dry the perspiration on the skin for a cooling effect.  I think.  Synthesis?

This is correct. According to a google search, anyways. Amongst other results, apparently a study was done on it, back in 1980, in which Bedouin robes were compared to similar white robes, a tan military uniform, and a half-naked guy.

Each of the test sessions (black-robed, white-robed, uniformed and half-naked) lasted 30 minutes. They took place in the Negev desert at the bottom of the rift valley between the Dead Sea and the Gulf of Eilat. The volunteer stood in temperatures that ranged from a just-semi-sultry 35C (95F) to a character-building 46C (115F). Though he is now nameless, this was his day in the sun.

The results were clear. As the report puts it: "The amount of heat gained by a Bedouin exposed to the hot desert is the same whether he wears a black or a white robe. The additional heat absorbed by the black robe was lost before it reached the skin."

Bedouins' robes, the scientists noted, are worn loose. Inside, the cooling happens by convection – either through a bellows action, as the robes flow in the wind, or by a chimney sort of effect, as air rises between robe and skin. Thus it was conclusively demonstrated that, at least for Bedouin robes, black is as cool as any other colour.

http://www.khilafah.com/index.php/news-watch/middle-east/14517-why-do-bedouins-wear-black-in-the-desert

[Inks]

It's kind of pushy and strange telling people how you think they should play.

I mean christ, there are plenty of coded penalties for not wearing desert gear. Why are you trying to pull the 'bad rp' card?

[Ourla]

It's kind of pushy and strange telling people how you think they should play.

This is a discussion forum.  Everyone gets to have their opinion.

There are clothing help files that outline cultural norms for the north and south.  While they're not required, they're a good suggestion on how to clothe your PC.  In short, "While the body may be covered almost entirely, Allanaki fashion can nonetheless be provocative," while "Tuluk's slightly cooler atmospheric and social climate is reflected in its clothing. Soft lines, flashes of skin, and elaborate ornamentations characterize northern clothing."

I always think about armor realistically.  It's easiest to die by blows to the head, neck, and chest, so I prioritize protecting those areas on my characters.  Everything else depends on how much weight I can carry and what my PC's job happens to be. 

[Harmless]

It's kind of pushy and strange telling people how you think they should play.

I mean christ, there are plenty of coded penalties for not wearing desert gear. Why are you trying to pull the 'bad rp' card?

Especially when it can be resolved ICly.

In fact, you'd be pretty damn hard pressed to name a "problem with others' rp" that I can't think of multiple IC solutions for. Desertman's suggestion is the most obvious.

As much as I appreciate people's debating things on the GDB, there really isn't anything here that you can't be the change for.

[Drayab]

True to life realism isn't necessary in a fantasy setting. What matters, for our suspension-of-disbelief or immersionz, is that what happens IG is appropriate within the context of the game world. In a post-apocalyptic desert world of magick and dinosaurs, I find nothing out-of-place about neither the scantly clad warrior nor the chitin clad tank-person. I find both to be cool tropes, the scantly clad one especially in this context because I think the player is accepting more risk for the sake of portraying a particular kind of character. Let me belabor that point: there are noticeable coded disadvantages to both of these styles. The code enforces the harshness of the desert world. If you want to call out the huntress in a leather bikini IG for being stupid, by all means, go ahead. On the other hand, if your perfectly outfitted ranger gets whipped by a wild man in a loincloth, congratulations: you just met a badass.

[Sephiroto]

If I'm not mistaken, Gritshaw existed back when parry was skill "bugged."  If the concept were attempted again today, the character probably wouldn't live long enough to make a name for himself.  With Armageddon being the sluggfest that it currently is, some degree of armor is required.

My preference is to keep my encumbrance at light or lower, when in combat.  For some characters, this is possible even in full silt-horror armor or duskhorn scale mail.  Some of my favorites, though, have been human warriors who wear nothing but leather and sandcloth. 

AFAIK, the code doesn't penalize you for wearing heavy armor in the desert and I do think that this should be looked at if people abuse it.  The idea of wearing heavy stuff in the desert isn't just about how much it weighs, but how breathable it is.  I'd imagine it very easy to overheat in scrab plate, or even in heavy leather.

[BleakOne]

A lot of heavy armour does actually impose coded penalties just for wearing it. Won't go into details though for obvious reasons.

Also, I don't think many people are 'abusing' wearing armour, nor do I think they get it simple 'for the lootz' or anything like that. As with with the scantily clad, it's all about the individual characters and what's reasonable for them to do.