Tea Culture of the Known

[Barsook]

This what started it:

Agreed. Finding a teapot shouldn't be an ordeal.

I'll check into it.

Not one, not two, but three teapots available where you folks were looking for it.  That "dude in the commons" for the win (he looks exactly like the kind of guy that would sell you pot).

Hookahs...well, there's one House you can always go to to find them.  I dunno that it is as necessary an item as tea since you can sniff or smoke spice without a hookah.

Thanks Nyr, but I think tea is still a roleplay prop.  The Tea culture is not doc'd yet for the Known, I think it should, but I think I am be derailing this thread.  So, is it okay if I make a new thread about tea and the Known?  Or is it still a "Find out IC" thing.

My question is why is the tea culture of the Known not documented?  Is it because tea and the the items along it is just a roleplay prop or spice and alcohol dominates most of the Known?  Or is because it's considered a waste of water?

[Patuk]

I think tea would be more common than alcohol everywhere that is not a noble's palace. Tea being a waste of water is a joke when alcohol requires far more water to prepare.

[Lizzie]

I think "the Tea Culture" isn't documented, because there isn't one. That is to say, there is no "tea culture." There's tea, that's available for people to drink, and comes in a variety of flavors and is craftable.

It's no different than "the Meat Culture." There's all kinds of meats, which can be prepared in all kinds of ways, with and without seasonings. It's not a culture unto itself. It's food. Just like tea isn't a culture unto itself; it's drink.

Tea houses are places where you're less likely to find drunken brawls than in places that serve alcohol - because tea doesn't get you drunk. Tea is less popular in places that -do- serve alcohol, because - people go there supposedly to drink alcohol.

Has nothing to do with a specific culture.

[LauraMars]

I like the idea of more documented "tea habits and preferences" for northern, southern, and tribal cultures.

What kind of teas are popular in Allanak? What kind of teas are popular in Tuluk?  What teas do different tribes like?  What are the rumored health benefits of some teas, and do any particular cultures treat the process of serving tea ceremonially?

These are all interesting questions to me.  I don't think tea would be considered a waste of water at all.  Much less so than alcohol, as Patuk states.  Tea is the second most popular drink in the real world, and water is the first.  In desert cultures in real life, tea is a very popular drink with almost as much ceremony and history behind it as in Asia.

[Barsook]

I like the idea of more documented "tea habits and preferences" for northern, southern, and tribal cultures.

What kind of teas are popular in Allanak? What kind of teas are popular in Tuluk?  What teas do different tribes like?  What are the rumored health benefits of some teas, and do any particular cultures treat the process of serving tea ceremonially?

Please staff. 

Really, it might allow non-upper class PC's to enjoy tea more.  Also it may allow more PC's to create tea themselves.

[rodic]

damn you all... Now I want to know more about Tea.

I was kind of curious since there isn't a "tea" plant, what plant would be most commonly used? 
Broken down by region, obviously.
Do these brew contain caffeine or a  Zalanthas equivalent with similar effects?
Or is Zalanthas tea a different ball game?  Mainly for flavor with no real body/mind altering effects?

Is it brewed traditionally like we do on earth? Or do they have different methods?  Possibly Sun tea? (locking herbs and water in a seal container and using heat from the sun to start the brewing process)

Sorry for newbie questions, there's no DOCS!

[Barsook]

We only know what four plants are used for tea.  They are in the Plant docs.

[rodic]

We only know what four plants are used for tea.  They are in the Plant docs.

I can only find:
Yuku -      A black-hued vine often used for wicker and baskets, which grows in the Grey Forest. Sometimes a very bitter, purgative tea is made from its roots.


Although this plant sounds like it be used for the process.

Tembotooth
    These leaves are long, narrow, and glossy green. Brushed, they release a warm, peppery scent with hints of anise. Chewed for their mildly stimulating qualities, and used in cooking

Mind pointing a newbie in the right direction?

[Barsook]

No, those are the only docs.  That's why I have created this thread for this reason.

[Lizzie]

Some of them are pretty anacronistic.

First off - the word 'tea' exists, because of the real-world plant known as 'tea.' The drink isn't tea. The drink is infusion of tea. Or rather, to be more clear, ONLY the drink made with the actual tea plant is called tea. The others are infusions of chamomile, or infusion of whatever other dried herb is steeped in boiling water. There exists no such thing as "tea" in Zalanthas; it's merely what we call the infusions you can buy, and because that's what we call the infusions, we've used the real-world designation of "tea house" to identify the place where we buy it.

Next - there is no such plant in Zalanthas as a clove, and yet there's clove tea. I don't believe there is any such plant as mint in Zalanthas either, though maybe those funky gypsies had a secret herb garden no one ever knew about.

Creating documentation would be difficult, considering you're documenting something that is contradictory (the existence of something made from something else that doesn't exist).

Perhaps instead of trying to create a culture and documentation, if you really love the idea of infusions so much, you might idea the plants that are supposedly used to create them, into existence first.

I have no horse in this race, I don't care if teas exist in the game or not. I just figured you might want to understand that the word itself does not mean an infusion. And yes, that's my opinion of real-world teas as well. If it's not made with actual tea leaves, I don't call it tea. I call it infusion. It's not a matter of semantics either. It's a matter of actuality. And the whole contradictory thing with making a drink out of herbs that don't exist.

[Drayab]

In the south, you'll hear commoners deride tea as northie drink, especially in the Gaj.

In the north, you'll hear people speak of tea as something consumed by bards and the upper classes. Commons drink it, too, of course, but often with a sense of emulating their betters.

This is the extent of 'tea culture' in my experience. Not much to it! Just regional tastes.

[HavokBlue]

If you want to make tea a bigger thing, play a character that drinks tea and invites people to tea and meets people in the tea house instead of Red's Retreat or wherever else.

I don't think documentation is even needed here. This is something players can easily handle on their own.

[Dalmeth]

I forget.  Does tea quench thirst like water?

It probably should.  Cold tea would be one of those ways commoners flavor bad water.

[valeria]

Next - there is no such plant in Zalanthas as a clove, and yet there's clove tea. I don't believe there is any such plant as mint in Zalanthas either, though maybe those funky gypsies had a secret herb garden no one ever knew about.

I view this as the way some people write their descriptions.  That is the OOC descriptor of what the plant tastes like.  While there aren't clove and mint plants, there are plants that give off aromas of clove and mint (and presumably taste that way too).

[Lizzie]

Next - there is no such plant in Zalanthas as a clove, and yet there's clove tea. I don't believe there is any such plant as mint in Zalanthas either, though maybe those funky gypsies had a secret herb garden no one ever knew about.

I view this as the way some people write their descriptions.  That is the OOC descriptor of what the plant tastes like.  While there aren't clove and mint plants, there are plants that give off aromas of clove and mint (and presumably taste that way too).

That'd make sense, if it wasn't actually called clove tea. And, if there existed a plant in zalanthas that tasted like cloves. Neither of those things are true. I think there might be a plant that has a minty aftertaste to it - this might be called mint tea, but it doesn't jibe with those teas that are actually named for the plants they're made from.

No consistency. If everything is willy-nilly, then the only culture you can lay claim to, is that the culture is willy-nilly.

[bcw81]

Next - there is no such plant in Zalanthas as a clove, and yet there's clove tea. I don't believe there is any such plant as mint in Zalanthas either, though maybe those funky gypsies had a secret herb garden no one ever knew about.

I view this as the way some people write their descriptions.  That is the OOC descriptor of what the plant tastes like.  While there aren't clove and mint plants, there are plants that give off aromas of clove and mint (and presumably taste that way too).

That'd make sense, if it wasn't actually called clove tea. And, if there existed a plant in zalanthas that tasted like cloves. Neither of those things are true. I think there might be a plant that has a minty aftertaste to it - this might be called mint tea, but it doesn't jibe with those teas that are actually named for the plants they're made from.

No consistency. If everything is willy-nilly, then the only culture you can lay claim to, is that the culture is willy-nilly.

There is a plant that tastes like licorice. Literally, when you taste it, it says "That tastes like licorice." I don't think I've ever seen -clove- specifically, but that in no way means it doesn't exist. Not only do we have plants that taste like earthen materials in game, but we also have plants in game that are direct models of real life foods. (Onions, Strawberries, ect.)

That said, I agree with Lizzie that it shouldn't be called 'clove' tea in the SDESC. If the taste echo says it tastes like cloves, that's one thing, but seeing it as -clove- tea, and then hearing people telling the waitress to bring them some -clove- tea is just off-putting.

[FantasyWriter]

Or there are virtual clove plants out there.

[Barsook]

Or there are virtual clove plants out there.

And mint plants.

[valeria]

To continue contributing to the tangent, there is a plant that smells like clove.  I don't know whether it tastes like it, but since most things taste like they smell, I don't think it's really going out on a limb.  I do think it would be nice though if they weren't described as "mint tea" and "clove tea" but rather "<this plant> tea" like the rest of the teas.

I would find it really handy if the areas' different tea cultures were included in the areas' different cultural helpfile docs, like the differences in clothing styles.  Provided that there are differences.  As well as differences in food culture and other drink culture, to the extent that exists.

[Zoan]

I want licorice tea now...

[LauraMars]

I would find it really handy if the areas' different tea cultures were included in the areas' different cultural helpfile docs, like the differences in clothing styles.  Provided that there are differences.  As well as differences in food culture and other drink culture, to the extent that exists.

Food culture, drink culture, music and instrument culture, clothing styles, architectural styles and furniture preferences...I could go on all day.  I'd love to have all these things fleshed out for both cities in a document of their own.  I'd be willing to write something up if staff wanted to review it, but I dunno if there would be much interest in that project.

[valeria]

I would find it really handy if the areas' different tea cultures were included in the areas' different cultural helpfile docs, like the differences in clothing styles.  Provided that there are differences.  As well as differences in food culture and other drink culture, to the extent that exists.

Food culture, drink culture, music and instrument culture, clothing styles, architectural styles and furniture preferences...I could go on all day.  I'd love to have all these things fleshed out for both cities in a document of their own.  I'd be willing to write something up if staff wanted to review it, but I dunno if there would be much interest in that project.

I'd hop on board the fleshing-out project train.

I love the little details like that.  They really make the game come to life.

[Lizzie]

That would all be great but as several posts have pointed out - there exists no tea culture. There's nothing to write -about- yet. You need to create such a culture in-game, before you can tell everyone what the culture is.

Be the change, and all that.

[Barsook]

Then I will start it.  Though I think the Noble Houses of both cities should a part of this and aslo the PC leaders of the tribes.

[Lizzie]

Then I will start it.  Though I think the Noble Houses of both cities should a part of this and aslo the PC leaders of the tribes.

Only if the Noble Houses and the PC tribe leaders think it's important enough to create. Tea's been in the game how long now? And until a couple weeks ago, no one has made any attempt that I'm aware of to spread an actual culture surrounding it. There's a teahouse in Allanak that -no one- ever goes to. There's a teahouse in Tuluk that is -rarely- occupied by PCs.

I'd say that pretty much sums up the interest in a tea culture. No culture, because there's just no interest. If you closed the Silver Ginka, I don't think anyone would miss it.

[Barsook]

Good point.  Everyone just loves booze.

[LauraMars]

I would find it really handy if the areas' different tea cultures were included in the areas' different cultural helpfile docs, like the differences in clothing styles.  Provided that there are differences.  As well as differences in food culture and other drink culture, to the extent that exists.

Food culture, drink culture, music and instrument culture, clothing styles, architectural styles and furniture preferences...I could go on all day.  I'd love to have all these things fleshed out for both cities in a document of their own.  I'd be willing to write something up if staff wanted to review it, but I dunno if there would be much interest in that project.

I'd hop on board the fleshing-out project train.

I love the little details like that.  They really make the game come to life.

There are a lot of little details that are unique to northern/southern culture already, but they aren't written down anywhere.

[Barzalene]

I would find it really handy if the areas' different tea cultures were included in the areas' different cultural helpfile docs, like the differences in clothing styles.  Provided that there are differences.  As well as differences in food culture and other drink culture, to the extent that exists.

Food culture, drink culture, music and instrument culture, clothing styles, architectural styles and furniture preferences...I could go on all day.  I'd love to have all these things fleshed out for both cities in a document of their own.  I'd be willing to write something up if staff wanted to review it, but I dunno if there would be much interest in that project.

In 2003 (I think) We did a huge furniture project. We wrote awesome items and information on how styles differed. But I think people voted with their feet. It didn't stick.

[LauraMars]

I would find it really handy if the areas' different tea cultures were included in the areas' different cultural helpfile docs, like the differences in clothing styles.  Provided that there are differences.  As well as differences in food culture and other drink culture, to the extent that exists.

Food culture, drink culture, music and instrument culture, clothing styles, architectural styles and furniture preferences...I could go on all day.  I'd love to have all these things fleshed out for both cities in a document of their own.  I'd be willing to write something up if staff wanted to review it, but I dunno if there would be much interest in that project.

In 2003 (I think) We did a huge furniture project. We wrote awesome items and information on how styles differed. But I think people voted with their feet. It didn't stick.

I remember finding that forum thread (maybe?) randomly and thinking it was really cool.  To be honest I think visibility was part of the problem.  Not everyone reads the forums, and I don't think it was ever made into "official" documentation.

[Suhuy]

At the moment I live in the Middle East and part of my job requires performing an Arabic coffee service for customers. We had to learn lots of fun little details about the tradition during training and we have to stick to the rules quite rigorously. For example, when we enter the room we have a small stack of handle-less ceramic cups in our right hand and click them together to indicate the start of the service, the coffee pot is held in the left hand and never the right, it's often served with dates to aid digestion, only 1/3 of the cup is filled as a polite way of indicating it will be refilled whenever desired (where as if you fill it all the way it's kind of like saying "Here, there's more than enough in that cup now so you won't have to ask me again), etc. It would certainly be nice to see a few small (Zalanthan-appropriate) details similar to these incorporated in game.

And tea does seem pretty ubiquitous on Zalanthas; you can find it in Allanak, Tuluk, amongst different tribes, there is even an "Elvish tea" found in the 'Rinth. Without a presently defined (documented) tea culture in any specific location right now, however, I would caution that any starting tea culture begin from scratch, rather than writing up a document that states this is how people have done it for countless generations, or that it dates back to the earliest days of the old merchant caravans, etc. I've harped on this a gazillion times in the past but when Tuluk instituted its tattoo culture it was presented as if it were something that had existed for hundreds of years and stretched back to its origins at the founding of the Gol Krathu, which flew directly in the face of anyone who had had a character in the days of the Rebellion or Old Tuluk, when there was no actual (documented) tattoo culture to speak of. Why didn't Northern rebels or even the NPC templars which you saw back then have Tuluki tattoos? Because there really was no such thing back then! It's just nicer to see things develop naturally in game, rather than forcibly being inserted into the story line.

[Drayab]

You know, we have that player collaboration board...

If we want to see a tea culture, we need a set of guidelines and a critical mass of people willing to give them a shot. I'd be willing to adopt something in principle, but I'm wondering what you guys have in mind.

Maybe tea is something used as part of a 'civilized' business  deal?
Maybe tea has some special significance for people who are sizing up each other as possible mates?
Maybe different teas send different messages? For example, kanjel means 'relax' while blackstem means 'time to get to work.'

Just some ideas off the top of my head.

[Suhuy]

Maybe tea is something used as part of a 'civilized' business  deal?

Not to diss you with my disagreement here or anything, but I think this is the sort of real world (even Western) misunderstanding about things which I would genuinely NOT like to see incorporated in game. A lot of people might hear the word tea and expect you to show up wearing a summer frock and be holding a bouquet of daffodils to bring to your unicorn. But that's just the old school posh image of tea which traditional Britain invokes. The reality of tea is much, much different.

For anyone who has an opportunity to visit Japan, a must do on your itinerary there is to attend a Japanese tea ceremony. It's incredibly in depth, on a level far surpassing my previous post about Arabic coffee traditions. And you know who pushed the present day tea culture into existence in Japan? A Japanese WARLORD named Hideyoshi Toyatomi. Don't let modern day perceptions of old British women sitting in a sewing circle daintily sipping tea decide your opinion on how tea should function in game. If there's elvish tea in the 'Rinth even we can assume some pretty badass cutthroats out there are drinking the stuff. And maybe, just maybe, there's a culture behind it, a measure of respect for the beverage such that it exists even in the lowest dredges of society. Ever seen the movie Midnight Express based on the true story of an American imprisoned in Turkey during the 1970s? They had tea in that prison and it was a pretty big deal for the inmates there. And they were by no means softies, mind you. These were murderers and rapists and general scoundrels. I'd also like to add here the concept of culture need not necessarily imply sophistication. I think the more stereotypical player out there if asked which part of the game should have a "tea culture" would mindlessly say that Oh, Tuluk should! Because, you know, Tuluk is seen as somehow "cultured". Barbarians in ancient times had culture. Neanderthals had a culture of their own even. And tea is a drink consisting of boiled water and one of various types of plants. You don't have to be some soft dandy to appreciate or even have customs surrounding the drinking of tea.

If you want to develop a tea culture in game, like I said before, start it naturally. Don't submit a document to staff with a bunch of malarkey stating how the custom has been around forever. Try to popularize its consumption by having your character drink it regularly. Maybe start doing something like regularly saying it's bad luck to drink tea from anything other than a stone container and see if that popularizes. Eventually, some day down the road, it's become a Northern/Southern/Tribal/Whatever tradition that tea is drunk from stone cups (or whatever nifty little cultural application you wish to pursue). But there's no reason you have to be some sophisticated, high-class individual to pursue a tea culture. Whoever wrote the Elvish tea in the 'Rinth long ago certainly didn't have dainty little Legolas the Elf images in his head when he created it, yet for all we know there's a culture surrounding the beverage which the virtual elves IN THE GHETTO indulge in. Just my two cents on the matter.

[Lizzie]

Re: what Suhuy said:

That's summarizing everything I've been saying about it very nicely. We're asking you all to please NOT develop customs and cultures here on the GDB. Develop them in game.

[Drayab]

My take on inventing a tea culture is practical. It needs to be something that people can easily incorporate into roleplay scenes that already occur. Asking people to have scenes wholly devoted to the tea is a tall order compared to asking them to introduce tea, as a new flavor, to the scenes they already have. For example, I've participated in scenes in the Lucky Ghatti where the tea was used to bring a sense of civilization to the conversation, both in interactions with the upper castes and with other commoners. Yes, it clearly borrows from the idea of posh British people enjoying tea and being fancy, but I had fun with it and presumably so did my partners. They were unique little scenes.

I, on the other hand, am saying that if people want to see this actually happen, it's going to take an enterprising player to post some guidelines on the player collaboration board! 

Or roll up a dwarf with the focus of spreading a tea culture across the Known. That would be infinitely cooler, but you know he'll just get eaten by a scrab many years before his time.

[BadSkeelz]

The best part of incorporating tea in to civilized discussion is that it allows you to throw a scalding liquid in to someone's face at short notice.

[yoink]

Does tea exist as a coded item, outside of the drink?
It could be interesting to have a PC tea merchant, desperately striving to spread his beloved beverage of choice across the Known.

[Patuk]

I like Suhuy's posts. I really, really do.

[valeria]

Does tea exist as a coded item, outside of the drink?
It could be interesting to have a PC tea merchant, desperately striving to spread his beloved beverage of choice across the Known.

There are teapots and plants that can be turned into tea.

See help still for more infos.

[Lizzie]

Does tea exist as a coded item, outside of the drink?
It could be interesting to have a PC tea merchant, desperately striving to spread his beloved beverage of choice across the Known.

No, there exists no such coded plant as tea in the game. There are herbs that can be made into infusions, but none are leaves from a plant called tea like there is in real life.

The drink "tea" and the device called "teapots", in game, are anachronystic. The device itself isn't - just its name.

[valeria]

Does tea exist as a coded item, outside of the drink?
It could be interesting to have a PC tea merchant, desperately striving to spread his beloved beverage of choice across the Known.

No, there exists no such coded plant as tea in the game. There are herbs that can be made into infusions, but none are leaves from a plant called tea like there is in real life.

The drink "tea" and the device called "teapots", in game, are anachronystic. The device itself isn't - just its name.

I strongly disagree.  The definition of tea includes any kinds of leaves, shrubs, or flowers infused in hot water and used as a beverage or medicine.  There are plenty of those in Zalanthas.  So I would argue that, yes, tea exists in Zalanthas.  Whether the plant camellia sinensis exists doesn't really determine whether there is tea. 

[LauraMars]

The problem with starting a "tea culture" in game is that the longevity and consistency of such "culture" will be limited to the characters currently practicing it.

Tea already exists in the game.  What I'm interested in knowing is what the vnpcs in either city think of tea - they must think something.  There are documents that tell us what the vnpcs in either city think of fashion.  A paragraph or two describing facts about and attitudes towards tea, an existing beverage, is not nearly as drastic as implementing a rigid and complex tattoo culture that was never there before.

Painstakingly writing out a large document filled with elaborate tea ceremonies is not, I think, what is being proposed here, nor is it necessary.  There currently isn't even a tea helpfile.  A document telling us what types of teas are preferred in what cities and what benefits each variety is meant to be infused with would add flavor to the gameworld.

Here, I'll show you what I mean with this fake and totally unapproved document (seriously, new players finding this in 2016 [and pedants right now], I just made this up. THIS IS NOT REAL. THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE. Ok carry on.)

===========================

TEA:

Tea is an important beverage in the world of Zalanthas.  It is consumed by people of all races and castes in both cities.  Tea can be used in many social situations - among groups of friends, at the start or end of business deals, or simply taken alone.  Tea is slightly more common in the north than the south, and is a popular drink among bards.  For the impoverished, tea is a way to add flavor to water that may be contaminated and dirty.  For the upper class, tea made with rare or expensive herbs is considered a mark of status.  Some types of tea are used as a stimulating drink in the mornings, and some teas may help the nausea that comes after a night of heavy drinking.  There are many varieties and flavors of tea on Zalanthas.

Blackstem tea.  This is an earthy tea with a minty aftertaste that serves as a mild stimulant.  Helps headaches.

Dwarfflower tea. Some catalyzing property in this tea is rumored to enhance the effects of mul mix and make childbearing less likely, though taken alone it does nothing.

Kanjel tea. This is a delicate tea with a complex flavor that is favored by the wealthy.  Especially enjoyed by southern nobility.

and so on and so forth.

[Barsook]

I think this is what we need.

[Lizzie]

The problem with starting a "tea culture" in game is that the longevity and consistency of such "culture" will be limited to the characters currently practicing it.

Tea already exists in the game.  What I'm interested in knowing is what the vnpcs in either city think of tea - they must think something.  There are documents that tell us what the vnpcs in either city think of fashion.  A paragraph or two describing facts about and attitudes towards tea, an existing beverage, is not nearly as drastic as implementing a rigid and complex tattoo culture that was never there before.

What do VNPCs think about escru milk? What do they think about whisky? What do they think about beer? What do they think about ale? What do they think about scrab steak? What do they think about...

I think you get the idea.

I think a very very few people are trying to turn one type of food into a big deal. I don't know why. It hasn't ever been a big deal and in fact, when a player went through all the trouble to create a "big deal" of it (The Silver Ginka) it was a novelty for a very short time, and then died into "that place you pass on the way to the end of the road."

[Qzzrbl]

What do VNPCs think about escru milk? What do they think about whisky? What do they think about beer? What do they think about ale? What do they think about scrab steak? What do they think about...

.... Somehow these questions are invalid?

[Lizzie]

What do VNPCs think about escru milk? What do they think about whisky? What do they think about beer? What do they think about ale? What do they think about scrab steak? What do they think about...

.... Somehow these questions are invalid?

That's pretty much my point. In response to LauraMars, who ponders what the VNPCs would think about tea, I ponder - what would they think about any type of food or drink? If no one cares what they'd think about other mundane, easily-accessible, un-rare, ordinary, commoner-affordable foods or drinks, why would anyone care what the VNPCs would think about tea? What is it to these very few players, that makes tea something they feel VNPCs, NPCs, and PCs in the game would have a whole culture around, worth documenting?

[Qzzrbl]

We've got documentation on various clothing styles and even what kinds of food spices are popular among who and where.

I don't see why not tea?

Or food, or drink.

I'd actually like to see what the general NPC/VNPC thoughts are on all these things, now that I think about it.

[LauraMars]

If no one cares what they'd think about other mundane, easily-accessible, un-rare, ordinary, commoner-affordable foods or drinks, why would anyone care what the VNPCs would think about tea?

Actually, I care.  I like all of those questions.

Having a cultural food document (what kinds of dishes are popular in Allanak, Tuluk, and elsewhere) and a more fleshed out alcohol document would be amazing.

Little facts like that can make the world feel very real.  I love Sanvean's "seasonings" documentation, for example.  Is it necessary to play the game?  Of course not.  It won't help you kill a scrab or raise your parry skill or advance socially.  But it's full of nuanced details that feel very vibrant and factual and can help immerse players in the world when they see examples of it in game.  

If you don't care about the small details of Zalanthas and how it operates, that's cool. But there's no need to harangue those who are interested.  It doesn't hurt you.

[RogueGunslinger]

It hurts her if she wants the documents to be one way, but they get written in a way she does not like. As it is the culture in-game is whatever its made into, in-game. I can see how people might rather that evolve naturally instead of being forced in. For instance I hated your example simply because it alluded to Tea being more common in the north and a thing that bards tend to do.

I'd hate it less if that arose from actualy things that happen in the game, instead of just because the person writing the docs thinks it should be that way.

[Qzzrbl]

If only all the docs were written the way we wanted them to be.

[LauraMars]

It hurts her if she wants the documents to be one way, but they get written in a way she does not like. As it is the culture in-game is whatever its made into, in-game. I can see how people might rather that evolve naturally instead of being forced in. For instance I hated your example simply because it alluded to Tea being more common in the north and a thing that bards tend to do.

I'd hate it less if that arose from actualy things that happen in the game, instead of just because the person writing the docs thinks it should be that way.

Well, as you know, that example was (as I painstakingly disclaimed) completely fake, and made up.  However, given that there is actually a teahouse in the Poet's Circle (where bards live) filled with more tea varieties than can be found anywhere else in the game, bards liking tea seemed like a reasonable conclusion to draw.

[BadSkeelz]

I think the point RGS was trying to make, Laura, is that once you codify something in the docs you're implicitly saying that everyone who does it otherwise is (at best) an outlier or (at worse) just plain doing it wrong. If you happen to play characters that don't fit the suddenly codified dictate of Zalanthan behavior, you can easily become annoyed. Keeping with your example: if you're playing a bard who doesn't happen to like tea, and the docs are changed to say bards motherfuckin' love their tea, now you're playing a snowflake. If you want top-down implementation ("the Known is now like this"), I would argue that vaguer is better.

For a Cultural Document like this, the closest functional analogue  I can think of is fighting styles and their documentation. Those docs are awesome, I'm glad we have them, and they've been important resources for my roleplay. The docs don't say "Southerns always fight with two weapons" or "Northerners always use a shield," but they do say why such and such a style is more common in a given area. And I think all of us who have played a combatant have at some point had the discussion with another PC along the lines of "Why are you using X style? That's for Y-City chumps!" Those are fun conversations to have, especially when you wind up beating them with your Chump City style...

But I can only imagine what it was like when those docs were put in. Were they just codifying flavors of roleplay that had arisen organically across the Known? Or did some one sit down, think rationally (or not) about how certain people fight and why, and then lay it down as a guideline? My preference is for the former, as it'd be less painful to implement and just feel more "real." If it was the latter, I suspect there were players of shield-using southerns and dual-wielding northerns who thought "Great, now my PC is different from the vast majority, all because of an OOC document."

So, roleplay the shit out of tea culture. Get people involved in that aspect of the game. Make it so that it's something that becomes a self-sustaining beast. Then, may be, we can have documents for it. Even better would be for new characters to learn about it, in character, in game.

[Jherlen]

In my opinion, as long as more documentation doesn't start spawning accusations of people roleplaying poorly because their northern bard doesn't like tea, or something, it is almost always a good thing.

Also, in my opinion, not every document that we generate needs to be something that was started in game by a PC. Many things are totally infeasible for PCs to start in any case. Why would any one character, even a noble or templar, be able to start a tea culture in Allanak or Tuluk? I suppose Eunoli Winrothol could have spent a lot of time devising a tea ceremony in Tuluk and called a huge RPT where she conveyed it to the masses, but is that really a good use of anyone's in game time? I'd prefer to let the world building be done out of game, so that characters can live in the world and thrive in a richly detailed setting.

We have documentation on fashion, music, fighting styles, and seasonings. I'm going to bet none of these were started in game, by PCs... they were submitted by an enthusiastic staff member or player, refined, and incorporated into the general lore of our world. That's part of what makes Zalanthas such a cool place; it's part of what sets Armageddon as an RPI MUD apart -- we have players who care about little details like that.

What types of tea are more common in Allanak than Tuluk? How is it brewed? What's the tribal take on tea - silly waste of good water or cherished drink for special occasions? Are there old wives' tales or superstitions about different sorts of tea - mint tea wards off magicker curses, clove tea helps fertility, so on? I'd love a document that answers questions like that. The best part is, for most of that information, whether you use it in roleplay or not has almost no consequence, but it's there if you want it, or if you want to make a tea merchant someday or something.

TL;DR "Be the change you want to see" does not mean "all new documentation must originate from events inside the game".

[Suhuy]

TL;DR "Be the change you want to see" does not mean "all new documentation must originate from events inside the game".

While true in some cases, why would you specifically want to create a bunch of tea-drinking traditions overnight that never existed before when it's so much more fun to let it evolve naturally in game? I'm not saying shame on you or being sarcastic here, I am genuinely asking the question. There are many things which have evolved through player persistence to the point that it became an in-game norm. Jihaen and Lirathan Tuluki templars referring to each other as brother/sister would be one example - and this is something which, from what I can recall, the staff initially did not exactly support. But because the players pushed the idea, it practically became an IC standard. The -da and -di suffix for Kuracis was also promoted IC by the efforts of a player. Though I think the story behind it may now state "dates back to ancient times", when it began to appear in game it was done in a very natural manner, rather than slapping some document on the forum and saying "from now on you've gotta start calling them Mr. Kurac-da and Mrs. Kurac-di".

So, again, not to deliberately contradict you here or anything, Jherlen, but in the case of pursuing a tea culture, I'd definitely say "Be the change" is the more favorable approach. For me it's about roleplay vs. instant gratification. I'd rather see things roleplayed into existence.

[ShaLeah]

Three pages for tea. Some tree hugger make the docs and submit them for approval already. Sheesh!

[Suhuy]

Three pages for tea. Some tree hugger make the docs and submit them for approval already. Sheesh!

Three pages is nothing. If I make a post titled Tea Sex it's going to be at least 17 pages long and you know it!

[Jherlen]

TL;DR "Be the change you want to see" does not mean "all new documentation must originate from events inside the game".

While true in some cases, why would you specifically want to create a bunch of tea-drinking traditions overnight that never existed before when it's so much more fun to let it evolve naturally in game? I'm not saying shame on you or being sarcastic here, I am genuinely asking the question.

It's a fair question. I have a few reasons for supporting something like this:

• I think they're relatively harmless additions that add a richness of flavor and depth to the world of Zalanthas. Documentation on tea culture (or more broadly, food/drinks and associated customs) does not have to be taken as absolute, a la "Elves never ride kanks." It can be something a character subscribes to, or not, just as I'm sure some Chicagoans prefer New York style pizza, or indeed, some citizens of Tokyo probably don't care about tea ceremonies. But just having it there makes our world more interesting, and allows for two characters who have never met each other but both like tea to have a deeper conversation without both just trying to make everything up.
• I think trying to introduce all new documentation, traditions, and customs via in game events is impractical. This isn't to say we should never do it, just that it shouldn't be the only way. Some things, definitely, can and should be more PC driven... a great example of these are nicknames for clan ranks or family members, like what you described. Traditions inside a clan can usually start off with a small group of players; if Kuraci start introducing themselves as -da or -di because of a family custom no one had previously heard of, few PCs are in a position to argue anyway. But it's much harder to do that for PCs to accomplish that on a level where it's affecting the entire culture of a city state. Again, maybe a templar PC could spend a lot of time working on convincing others about cultural significance of tea, but the effort may not be worth the payoff.
• Taken together, the above two reasons mean plenty of interesting flavor and lore documentation would never make it in game if we wait for PCs to introduce it. Whether every player finds such documentation valuable is up for debate, but at least some do - and again, much of the documentation we have today came about because enthusiastic players and staff wanted to take the time to enrich the world. I'd love to see more and deeper documentation on food/drink, holidays, festivals, sayings, legends, and so on, but I don't necessarily want to devote the next few years of my in-game time just to bringing it all about. World building can be done outside the game too, much more easily and with the same end result.

To be clear, again, I'm not saying I want a bunch of traditions to just pop up overnight and expect all PCs to act as if they were sacred to their culture all along. If anything, I'd see a tea ceremony, if one was documented, regarded in the same sort of vein as we often treat a game like izdari. Plenty of PCs will mention playing izdari, or having been taught, but it isn't as if everyone even among the high classes plays virtually, and almost nobody ever actually roleplays out playing izdari in game, because it'd be fairly laborious and uninteresting. Still, though, the game is better off for having izdari in the documentation and having a defined set of rules. If we introduced a tea ceremony (or other sorts of ceremonies/rituals) I expect we could treat them in the same vein. They're there, they've always been around, and they just haven't been worth mentioning "on screen" until now.

So while I don't disagree that it can be more fun to start such things in game, I just wanted to make the point we shouldn't make that a rule. Even with the topic of IC rituals and such aside, I'd still love to see more documentation on some of the more objective questions about tea I asked in my last post, and that definitely I think does not need to be introduced in game. It was the "why does this matter?" and the "everything new should show up in game first" opinions that drove me to write my original post.

[IntuitiveApathy]

So while I don't disagree that it can be more fun to start such things in game, I just wanted to make the point we shouldn't make that a rule. Even with the topic of IC rituals and such aside, I'd still love to see more documentation on some of the more objective questions about tea I asked in my last post, and that definitely I think does not need to be introduced in game. It was the "why does this matter?" and the "everything new should show up in game first" opinions that drove me to write my original post.

I agree with Jherlen - I don't see why this has to be black or white, and why something like this can't organically evolve with a combination of some starting points with documentation and/or in-game play into something greater.

Why should we care?  Not everyone cares about everything in the game.  Some people care about tea enough to make something of it - I think that's great and to discourage that (or any other interest) discourages growth of the game overall.