Independents: Poorer, Funner, Better.

[Lizzie]

It's a lot of stuff to think about.  

This is a little random and doesn't do much justice to your response, but I wonder if Tuluk would have as many problems with getting people in clans if it were... in the center of a desert... maybe even a harsh, inhospitable, dangerous desert.

In a way, Tuluk is an independent character's, especially an independent crafter character's, wet dream.  Outside of the fact that resources are abundant, Tuluki shops are not only more abundant, but by and large, they have way more obsidian than Allanaki shops and, for the most part, even pay way more for things that are sold there. I'm not saying this stuff should be nerfed as much as I am pointing out that it probably heavily contributes to the lack of players in clans.

To the rage of northern players, nobles have done stuff like making free access to stuff like the forest and grasslands possible with only a license or fee... it was ugly.  So were those fucking tokens for individual sales, christ.


Heh, what if the north had a large group like the Byn whose job it was to be resource cops, and they patrolled the surrounding areas looking for poachers, illegal loggers, etc?  It could even be a "coalition force" of multiple groups, maybe, which would foster interaction while discouraging adding a level of complexity and challenge to the game for independents.

It sounds like you've answered your own question. Players in the north, want free access with no restrictions and no fucking tokens for individual sales. They want to play independents who have easy access to more coins, and they want less roleplay and more skill-grinding and NPC vendors. If they didn't want it, they would have put up with the licenses, attended those RP "meetups" at the Citizen's Call and the Arena, and made some attempt to get the shops to carry fewer coins (typo burly this vendor seems to have unlimited funds and just paid JoeGrebber the Independent over 400 sids for a bunch of stinky gith armor, can someone take a look at the NPC?)

That's what players in Tuluk WANT. They are experiencing exactly what they want. The ones who are there, who don't want that, are outnumbered by the ones who do want it. The ones who don't want it, should just store and roll up Allanak characters, where clans have people in them who seem to be involved in stuff. There are fewer active clans, to my knowledge, but the ones that exist are more active. The only problem with that, is the clans that hire hunters, are going to be disappointed because there's just not much hunting to do in the south.

So basically, you have the "coded stuff" players want in the north and the "RPed stuff" players want in the south.

How about a nice game of nuclear war? It'd require heavy staff intervention - it would ALSO require players who create characters who don't die after a week of training or going out to do stupid things, and pissing off their clan members such that they get fired or executed.

Therein lies the problem. Players want individual things. There exists no collective. And because there exists no collective, there can't be a collective opinion. Since there is no collective opinion, there can't exist a collective solution. It brings us right back to where we started.

The only way to make changes to this - is to change the mindset of the players. And as I said in a previous post - good luck with that.

[Kronibas]

Yeah... you say that's what the players there want... but maybe there aren't more players there because that's the way it is.

I definitely see what you're saying about a general consensus wanting it this way or that way, but consensus is not static in a game like Armageddon where players are constantly shifting between the city states.

Quite frankly, the last time I played in Tuluk, I typed:  "idea: re-open the Byn in Tuluk."  Why?  Because all these people from different groups were going to apartments to spar since there weren't enough people in clans to do it with.

I'm sure some people would say opening the Byn or some equivalent thereof in Tuluk would not be a good idea, if but for the simple fact it would reduce the number of characters in clans already struggling for members.  In this instance, I believe that type of OOC engineering backfires. Ultimately, here are some reasons why I think it would be a good idea:

* the number of independent hunters decreases dramatically because they are unable to leave the gates

* players stick around longer because, by and large, they live longer as a result of not going out and dying all the time

* it increases the employee pool for clans because it draws players who otherwise would not play in Tuluk, and it increases the quality of the employee pool as well.  Don't think a mercenary group like the Byn would draw more players to the North?  Uhhh, look at the numbers the Byn has... really, they could stand to be dispersed between the two states, and this is coming from the same guy who says big groups are the best groups.  Sometimes the Byn alone touts a quarter of the playerbase, even when there are 50 people online.

* right now, outside of House Kurac, there is no (to my knowledge) group in the North who is as openly accepting of most races, so it would help people who want to play social undesirables.  Not every character should be cut out to be GMH, legion, or noble house material.  Some of us, some of the time, want to play seedy, dirty, smelly, "normal" Zalanthan people... not well-to-do, well-dressed, and politic-oriented characters. People should not be forced to play in Allanak because they want grit.  Most of Zalanthas should be grit. It should be the rule, not the exception, but clanned avenues for this type of character are almost nonexistent in Tuluk.

* with a larger military populace, there might be more conflict between the states.  There does not seem the potential for conflict between the city states when everyone is playing some indie character who could give a shit less about the war, resulting in things like the Citizen's Call apparently being unpopular.  Attract players who thrive on that sort of playing with a mercenary company, not necessarily the T'zai Byn exactly, and I think we would see more of this.

[Patuk]

I'm just dropping in to say that the arena got closed because independents kept using it as a totally safe and risk-free haven to spar like crazy.

I guess this describes the thread nicely.

[Malken]

Kronibas, I can unfortunately kill your opening back the byn in the north suggestion rather rapidly; it won't happen due to IC reasons and due to the fact that northern Byn has always been unpopular in the north, it's just very "anti" northern players mindset, but, yeah, mostly for some powerful IC reasons.

[Fujikoma]

Staff remove/close nice thing because people who don't understand skill gains are abusing it to basically hell and back? Sounds backwards. How about dropping them a few echoes as hints, followed by a message "Hey bucko, you do know you only learn X every Y per Z, why don't you go smoke some tho and relax?", and if that doesn't work, how about AN ACCIDENTAL DECAPITATION WITH A SPARRING SWORD/AXE, whoops! How'd that happen?! "Nooooo! Amosa, I loved you, I'll never be the same, again..." so Derp rides out in a funk and gets bahametted, and word gets around that overdoing any one thing is bad.

So I've never seen the problem. At least in the Byn, though, there was always someone to nudge me in the right direction. Some of it can sound like downright superstition to someone who comes from a "non-RP enforced hack-and-slash PvP kill-em-all omg loot faster! Kill, kill kill!", like me, yes, believe it or not, I've NEVER gotten into RP before and never thought I would, but you guys changed me for the better in that regard, so thanks. But yes, coming from this mindset the player will think "Why would they do that? But more, WHY WOULD THEY DO THAT AND NOT SAY IT IN THE OPEN?!", it's all somewhat alien.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting the problem, do you just mean like, sparring 24/7 no RP no tavern sitting no OMG you broke my head I better come back in a week or two when I feel better? Just find a couple sadistic admins to watch and engineer "accidents" for those who engage in such behavior openly disrespectful of the game world. I know I've suffered a few "accidents", why not share the love?

[Riev]

I would agree, Fuji, but there is a sort of consensus that in Tuluk, even SPARRING is looked at as barbaric, and needless, and why wouldn't you choose to go play an ivory flute poorly, with bad meter and rhyme in the Circle? Sure everyone needs fighters, but do we really need to SEE you bleeding and bruised? Our sensibilities are too high for that. (sarcasm)

Byn in the North would never work, for similar reasons. Shoveling shit? Being the "scum" of society? Byn hires jailed murderers, and thieves, and the worst of the worst. In Tuluk, if you're really that bad.... they just cut the rot from the fruit. Byn, as its designed, does not and will not work in Tuluk.

Unfortunately, I agree with Kronibas in that many indies love Tuluk because of the way it IS. Resources abound, food is cheaper, water is cheap as dirt (all things considered, when you can make so much coin). But its still not ABOUT coin. If your clan is low, its because of the Patron/Partisan system in Tuluk. Its a great idea in practice, but essentially what it breeds is a group of independent PCs, all who work for a different Patron, but otherwise supply nothing to the RP of said clans. On the other side of things, why would you be a Lifesworn Employee when you can get 90% of the benefits by just being a partisan?

And, even that being said, OTHER than being an indie partisan... what options are there for someone that DOESN'T want to make a Lifesworn Tenneshi? What if you want to do a job, contracted, for a few years, but use it as background for something else? Byn is good because you can say "4 years of Byn Training". Salarr can say "I was a Contracted Hunter for <x> years". Most other clans DEMAND a Life Oath, and if you don't take it well weren't you just wasting their time? And now you can't get another job because you're "a flake".

Just my thoughts.

[Malken]

And, even that being said, OTHER than being an indie partisan... what options are there for someone that DOESN'T want to make a Lifesworn Tenneshi? What if you want to do a job, contracted, for a few years, but use it as background for something else? Byn is good because you can say "4 years of Byn Training". Salarr can say "I was a Contracted Hunter for <x> years". Most other clans DEMAND a Life Oath, and if you don't take it well weren't you just wasting their time? And now you can't get another job because you're "a flake".

Just my thoughts.

The "flake" part is SO true, and I think it's a huge part as to why I'm wary of joining a clan even WHEN they offer me a one-year probation where they can either kick me out or I can leave without any problems. Problem is, I think I suffer from PTSD because once, when I accepted such an offer, the noble felt like after a week of play in his clan I was trusted enough for him to pour down all of his secrets and plots down my nobody's throat, and when I wanted to leave because I didn't like the schedule-heavy day-to-day activity of the clan, I was told by said noble, "Well, you know all of my secrets, I can't really just let you leave now, can I? *slay*", the other PTSD I suffer from is when I played in Tenneshi (long, long ago, so it's not related to any recent Chosen), I was also given a year long probation, but when I realized that it wasn't for me, the Chosen was all offended by my decision to leave and promised me that I would never find work in Tuluk again, I was targeted a fluke, someone who couldn't handle responsabilities and pretty much a pariah of the city.

Now, I understand that these simply be bad luck on my part, but as I said, it left me with a real bad taste in my mouth.. I understand now that with threads like these, such an example probably only happens rarely and I should try and get over it.

[evilcabbage]

Though every time I hear something like, I prefer not to deal with nobles, they ask for a lot, but cant afford me. I die a little on the inside.

I'd be killing a motherfucker real fast if he ever said that in front of me <_<

But yes. To reiterate some points: Indies can make ludicrous amounts of coin, clannies don't APPEAR to get great influence... but if you're just fucking a recruit bumfuck or cadet or trooper or what the fuck ever, you're not GOING to have enough influence to really compete with an indie. When you hit Corporal/Second Hunter/Corporal/Next rank where influence starts to matter, that's when you actually REALLY start to see that people notice you, because you actually do wear some cool shit at that point and you ARE better than most indies. Most indies will fucking die off before you make that point, rich as they may ever get, or they'll fuck with the wrong guy and that guy will have influence and get that indie guy nicked in a heartbeat. Bam. Now you're top dog again.

[Fujikoma]

Though every time I hear something like, I prefer not to deal with nobles, they ask for a lot, but cant afford me. I die a little on the inside.

I'd be killing a motherfucker real fast if he ever said that in front of me <_<

But yes. To reiterate some points: Indies can make ludicrous amounts of coin, clannies don't APPEAR to get great influence... but if you're just fucking a recruit bumfuck or cadet or trooper or what the fuck ever, you're not GOING to have enough influence to really compete with an indie. When you hit Corporal/Second Hunter/Corporal/Next rank where influence starts to matter, that's when you actually REALLY start to see that people notice you, because you actually do wear some cool shit at that point and you ARE better than most indies. Most indies will fucking die off before you make that point, rich as they may ever get, or they'll fuck with the wrong guy and that guy will have influence and get that indie guy nicked in a heartbeat. Bam. Now you're top dog again.

Much as I am loathe to agree with a cabbage... I must do so here.

While I have seen some badass, seemingly long-lived indies (a certain trading group comes to mind, and if they were part of a group, they weren't really indies), once they're gone the market for everything kind of suffers. Most things you can find that some developed indie merchant would previously take off your hands, as you're squeeking to get by, grebbing your poor little heart out for stones you're going to sell for much less than you would get from the vendor (vendor's full, gaiz, WHAT DO WE DO!?!? AGHGHHGHG!), you're still making it, and slowly saving your coin, until the indie merchants are no longer around, then you go to a house and they turn their nose up and say "Thanks, but the House provides for all my material needs" and you're stuck with a heavy sack of rocks and a sinking feeling as you realize your niche is gone, you must go out on the salts, sacrifice your harsh life immersion, and become gloriously rich in order to get by, and then get bitched about on the gdb.

Yes for merchant house stalls buying large amounts of materials at discount prices. I will fill your warehouse so full you will be like "OMG WTF WHO DONE THIS MESS?!", and still maintain my integrity as a humble rock peddler.

[Nyr]

Just gonna poke my head in this thread briefly and that's it.

I've only ever noted issues with PCs that gather coin as independents with no seeming interest in using it to further any plotting, roleplay, or whatever.  It seems to the observer that the goal is just to amass coin.  That's it.  However, this occurs very infrequently.  It is something we keep an eye on from time to time, but at best, it is a minor annoyance.  That's why I made a sideline suggestion about possibly taxing indie bank accounts when they hit a certain level.

Laura, but before ShaLeah even wrote that, I myself wondered... Well, what about GMH family member and nobles?  They have their own freaking bases, is it fair that they can take up apartments, too?

IC social role considerations aside, sponsored role type characters typically use places like that for their minions.  At least, when I played a GMH family member, the only reason I rented apartments was for the use of minions.  That seems a lot better than a loner magicker taking up the space.

Still, let's say you have 4 Allanaki nobles, 2 templars, 2 GMH bosses, and maybe an industrious Byn sergeant all renting apartments to have on reserve for their henchmen or nefarious plans.  8 PCs?  Well, that's over half of the desirable real estate in Allanak, hypothetically.  It adds up.

Actually, nowadays, we tend towards telling nobles and templars that they get their own estates or housing and they are not to use up any other housing.  If they need a space for their lackeys, their lackeys need to go out and get that, not them.  Besides, if this thread is about making things poorer/better/funner for independents, wouldn't the lack of a place to put your stuff be "poorer?"

Apartments as a whole are something that are on the table to be reviewed, and not in a piecemeal method.  Hopefully it can be seen to this year.

This thread has made me anxious in some ways to show people in my clan it's worth being there.

Yep, this is a good takeaway from this for some clans, I hope!

and cue hate cycle? 

Yeah, sorta seems that way...

Higher-ups are urged to -not- PK people who are clearly more interested in gaining their fat loot than they are participating in scenes, even if those people are gaining more and more and more, and wearing better stuff than nobles wear just to show off how much "more" they have.

I have a feeling that this urging is not happening.

Around that same time, a spice grebber frequently kept ruining the idea of a struggling spice grebber for me with always telling me things like, "I only made two small today damn it," and they were not in any way giving me the impression that they were any worse off than the tailors. They were probably advanced or master forage, I do not know. Yes, people should totally be able to afford skimmers, but I think it should take a damn long time, and being a struggling but proud unskilled Storm worker is like 50% of the hardship for me in that town.

At best the bulk spice buying code was a patch on a problem.  Really, all automated jobs need to be given a cap on what the player can expect to get in X period of time so that no one can "get rich quick" by exploiting archaic code on automated jobs.  Nathvaan and I have talked it over a bit recently, hopefully it can be reviewed sometime soon.

Staff remove/close nice thing because people who don't understand skill gains are abusing it to basically hell and back? Sounds backwards. How about dropping them a few echoes as hints, followed by a message "Hey bucko, you do know you only learn X every Y per Z, why don't you go smoke some tho and relax?", and if that doesn't work, how about AN ACCIDENTAL DECAPITATION WITH A SPARRING SWORD/AXE, whoops! How'd that happen?! "Nooooo! Amosa, I loved you, I'll never be the same, again..." so Derp rides out in a funk and gets bahametted, and word gets around that overdoing any one thing is bad.

It was never the intention for there to be a place for people to spar each other in public with no consequences.  The idea was for it to be used for training for Arena events.  Since it was being used for generic sparring rather than for Arena events, it was closed off.

[sprucebark]

I get the biggest rush out of playing an independent because every day I have to keep my eye on the prize. Survival. Some clans can deliver on that daily and some just can't.

I do think some tweaks on the economy are in order where some items are ridiculously priced only because they have a value not everyone knows about. You wouldn't know its value so you wouldn't expect so many coins for it. In the end however, what I really want to know is how the independent grocer manages to sell from his own building without being picked apart on the GDB?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I actually really like the GMH material buyer idea. That's really, really good.

[Chettaman]

I actually really like the GMH material buyer idea. That's really, really good.

Also love it.


to make indie gameplay better - my suggestions:
1- my first suggestion is prepare your character in advance. If you make a warrior/acrobat his skills will revolve around fighting. That is all he can do. Your skill set doesn't allow you to be anything other than a fighter. ... or does it? Already you've chosen a combat role. But you don't have to use any of those skills. You could say... perform tricks for money, contorting your body in ways people can't believe. You could be a hooker. A famous musician! A poet. A spice dealer. An explorer. The maker forbid, a hunter. You could even become a trader, you go out and buy things from one place then leave to sell them in another for more money! - you can especially do this after raiding.
The point is. If you create a character and you're not having fun. Maybe you hired the wrong actor for the role you imagined.

[FantasyWriter]

In my experience, the occasional PCs thrown into a long term situation or goal that they are codedly suited for can be an interesting challenge and lead to some pretty cool.... work arounds.

Not that I like playing conartists or anything...
The short, bearded man looks around suspiciously before going back to his card trick.

[Darrell]

I think being an indie should be a tooth-and-nail miserable experience unless you've got 5-6 dudes in your crew and you're pretty heavily into your indie career.

Only if hard work and uncertain safety is miserable. From an OOV perspective, the player might be looking for a more adventurous experience despite the risk to life and limb. It ready is more dangerous. But joining the Byn to be stuck inside the walls, while safer! might be just a bit too boring for some.

Having said that, I enjoy the challenge of a tough economy. Having to work at staying alive builds investment in the characters' life. But don't consider it punishment for people who prefer less intense social contact. Loners are a part of the society, too. Definitively add to the challenge without trying to make it punishment for playing solo.

Some things that might help:

• Expiring a room for grebbing at a random quantity. It can regenerate its capacity like bushes do. This would force grebbers to move around, thus increasing their likelihood of encountering mobs.
• Taxes are always natural weeds in the gardens of wealth. If somebody is making money, somebody else is going to tax it.
• Territorial disputes for crafters. Salaar might hire thieves or assassins or bully boys like any other noble or merchant House. Selling your weapons on my turf...?

Some folk are just partial to routine work and they will make money simply by being steady producers. As somebody said, so what? Let them spend a fortune to open a bazaar tent or run a wagon and build up a more complex trade system to keep them traveling and busy. Wealth can add interest if there are outlets for it (like sticky fingers, wagon route raiders or local crafters hooking up with traveling merchants)...

[Barsook]

• Expiring a room for grebbing at a random quantity. It can regenerate its capacity like bushes do. This would force grebbers to move around, thus increasing their likelihood of encountering mobs.

I think that might work.