Independents: Poorer, Funner, Better.

[TheWanderer]

[morrigan]

I think some of you are letting certain real world attitudes leak into the game. There's nothing wrong with a character always wanting more than they have. It's "human" nature to want more, more more.  Condemning people for being "greedy" because they don't force themselves to conform to what -your- idea of an RPI mud is all about is pretty much the same as saying it's not fair because so and so isn't playing the way you want them to. If people striving to increase their wealth breaks the entire game, then it's the game that needs adjustment, not people's attitudes and desires.

[Cutthroat]

I think some of you are letting certain real world attitudes leak into the game. There's nothing wrong with a character always wanting more than they have. It's "human" nature to want more, more more.  Condemning people for being "greedy" because they don't force themselves to conform to what -your- idea of an RPI mud is all about is pretty much the same as saying it's not fair because so and so isn't playing the way you want them to. If people striving to increase their wealth breaks the entire game, then it's the game that needs adjustment, not people's attitudes and desires.

Players are consistently expected to adhere to documentation and playing standards. Your argument is flawed because it essentially suggests that if players don't follow these standards then it's not the player's fault, but the game's fault. No one should blaming indie players for doing what they do, because there simply aren't any standards beyond "harsh world" and "low position in social structure". We have literally nothing else besides that to go on - which leaves players to interpret very broadly what their indie can and should be doing.

The best thing would be to figure out what players actually should be expected to do (or not do) as independents. We should be striving, as players, to make players and the game better. That means players and staff having a discussion about things like this.

But ultimately Malken is right about how the RAT discussion was about clans being better, and how this thread is about indies being worse. We should start a new thread to discuss the clan problem, since that is probably more easily fixable than any perceived problems with indies.

[Malken]

I'm just getting annoyed with thread like these because it's always the same thing, over and over again..

Player A: I think we should find a solution to the problem regarding indies being able to make 1000 sids a day. This is why I think it's wrong and this is how they do it: Explains.
Player B: No, you're wrong, maybe they can do 1000 sids a day but the next day I guarantee you they will die from X Y Z's. And it's only a few players who do it.

Player A: I think it's too easy to make money with spicing and maybe we could lower the monetary reward given for jobs like salting, spicing and foraging.
Player B: No, you're wrong. If you want to spice, you need to face deadly storms, an army of 'gikers and many 'meks, you might be able to get away with it for a few days, but I guarantee you it's super dangerous. (while the rest of the smart people who just keep quiet and mostly just read the GDB snickers at that.)

It just gets very frustrating that no discussions ever get anywhere because there's always someone coming back with some extreme example as to why what the previous person wrote about is totally wrong and how they are totally wrong.

[morrigan]

I think some of you are letting certain real world attitudes leak into the game. There's nothing wrong with a character always wanting more than they have. It's "human" nature to want more, more more.  Condemning people for being "greedy" because they don't force themselves to conform to what -your- idea of an RPI mud is all about is pretty much the same as saying it's not fair because so and so isn't playing the way you want them to. If people striving to increase their wealth breaks the entire game, then it's the game that needs adjustment, not people's attitudes and desires.

Players are consistently expected to adhere to documentation and playing standards. Your argument is flawed because it essentially suggests that if players don't follow these standards then it's not the player's fault, but the game's fault. No one should blaming indie players for doing what they do, because there simply aren't any standards beyond "harsh world" and "low position in social structure". We have literally nothing else besides that to go on - which leaves players to interpret very broadly what their indie can and should be doing.

The best thing would be to figure out what players actually should be expected to do (or not do) as independents. We should be striving, as players, to make players and the game better. That means players and staff having a discussion about things like this.

But ultimately Malken is right about how the RAT discussion was about clans being better, and how this thread is about indies being worse. We should start a new thread to discuss the clan problem, since that is probably more easily fixable than any perceived problems with indies.

Except my argument isn't flawed because you supported it in your second sentence. There's no game documentation that says "Commoners do not ever try to make money. They are perfectly happy with owning nothing and scrounging for food."  If the best thing we can do is figure out what players actually should be expected to do, then that means the same thing as the problem being with the game, even if the problem is a lack of documentation and set in stone guidelines. Your response made it sound like I was saying we shouldn't be discussing it, which wasn't my intent. My intent was to point out that there's nothing wrong with greed..in fact Zalanthas is supposed to be rife with it.

[Refugee]

I don't know how to fix clans so they are as much fun as being independent, but I know that some of them do a better job of it than others.  I don't think it's the fault of the PC leaders, but rather the rules that are set up for the clan, which might be feasible for larger numbers but become onerous with only a couple of players.

The thing is to make clans so they are fun to a wider range of player.  There must be a significant portion of the pbase that doesn't find it very satisfying, because this conversation keeps coming up.  But it's likely we don't all find the same things dissatisfying.  

For me, it's not about the coin so much as it is about the restrictions and mostly the forced isolation.  That's me; it's reasonable to accept that there are players who care about getting rich and collecting things.  I don't think it's constructive to criticize what people find enjoyable.  If you want more players, you're going to have to find a way to attract people who like different things.  If you instead just take away what these other players like to do, they will wander away to another game.  

I think giving clanned people a bit more coin would probably help.  I don't think it's going to create inflation because, after all, it's not a real economy.  It's coded.  Besides, so what if a guy can afford a beer every week in the bar?  I like the idea of clanned people being able to have little private rooms.  These are all RP niche things that spread the appeal.  Little things which improve the situation of the players who decide to play in clans, and support the game that way, will feed themselves:  attracting more people to the clan, then the play gets more enjoyable, then you get more people, and so on.

[Zoan]

I dunno if I'm doing it right or wrong but when I play independents I stay dirt-poor. I do everything I can to scrape together money...and then throw it at higher powers than myself just to bribe them into letting me stay alive in their territory.

Is independents being rich the fault of the player, or the establishment? Maybe you Templars, crime bosses et al need to be supremely more ruthless.

[Fujikoma]

An example, one I am familiar with personally:
Byn Runner:
You don't get paid (unless someone loves you, which usually, they can't, because the pay for contracts is only enough to split between the important people like troopers, sarges and the Byn cut, which is completely understandable)
Your mounts cost 20 sid to get out to go on contracts and have an awesome time (sometimes the Sarge or someone else will pay, but it's coming out of their pocket and you start to feel like a burden for risking your PCs life to repel invading Martians)
Some rinthi jerk scraped the stables before your day off, and you have no craft skills
You spend most of your time training, rough circling, scraping dung, chopping tubers, maintaining equipment, which is great for developing in-clan bonds and character development, but terrible for getting to know those outside
There are quite possibly people who are plotting your untimely demise from the bunk next to yours
Just forget ever getting equipment, unless you loot gith or get lucky and the sarge lets you loot another dead runner
Archery or throw? Nope.
Don't get too into that mudsex, it's time to get back to base for ruf circle with all the lonely dwarfs, someone -will- be shattering your barrier soon, especially if you're a vicious beast of a warrior

BUT
When stuff goes down, it's a blast, even if you're just cannon fodder
The sense that your PC is part of something larger than themselves, that you're actually doing something as part of a team
The training is a real step up, and even if you accept a promotion or two you can leave for another job at any time (barring desertion)
If you don't know about concepts like poisons or desert survival you can really learn these skills
300 sid really is not a lot of coin when you can go out and get it, should you find yourself in a bind
Despite all the mucking about and being just another dumb Runner, it's actually quite, quite fun when there's people around

HERE, for me at least, the pros outweigh the cons. But not every character I make is Byn material, some really aren't good for diddly, truth be told. I've had a blast playing through numerous characters in this clan, some who have not survived past two weeks. Would totally do it again, just, exploring new things without being led into a kill-crazy horde off hellbeasts can also be kind of rewarding, in the sense that maybe my next character who has to run from said horde has a chance in Drov of KNOWING WHERE THE KRATH HE IS. Sure there's drawbacks, but come on, a chance at being a grizzled, dirty merc, you know you want to try it, again, and again (or at least, I do, some kind of sick masochism, I guess).

I have since been trying other clans, but one has a terrible and lonely location, and just is not fun if you're not playing when everyone else is. I've just managed to kick my Byn withdrawls, but every now and then the urge strikes, and I have to stop myself.

[long live miley cyrus]

God, the Byn is awesome.

Its the most restrictive clan in the game, but it manages to have as many players who've logged in at least ten days ago as the rest of the clans combined.

Let's try to pick that apart and see what aspects of it are so damn attractive which can be transplanted to the other types of clans.

Fujikoma already did some good work on that.

[morrigan]

I suspect that the rough and tumble, fighty aspect of the Byn is what draws people to it. As pointed out above, one of the problems with the restrictions on clan members' behavior is the schedule, which can become very tedious when there are only one or two active players in said clan. Maybe if we had fewer clans so that more people would be in the same clan, it would help people maintain interest in the clanned role. I don't know if that would work out though, and personally I'm generally against closing off more and more options for players. It's a tough question. I don't even have good suggestions, just observations about my thoughts on the subject.

[Fujikoma]

God, the Byn is awesome.

Its the most restrictive clan in the game, but it manages to have as many players who've logged in at least ten days ago as the rest of the clans combined.

Let's try to pick that apart and see what aspects of it are so damn attractive which can be transplanted to the other types of clans.

Fujikoma already did some good work on that.

Thanks! But I must insist, the Byn model works for the Byn, for GMHs, the Kurraci Fist, I've never played in a noble house, but I imagine they're different too. The appeal of the Byn is not just the image, the inclusiveness to other races (only outdone in this sense by Kurac), the opportunities for conflict, the sheer grit of it all is amazingly fun, and there's usually something going on, because the Byn gets mad contracts.

Everything else is different, different image, different focuses, different goals, different recources, and different restrictions, the mold cannot be fit to other clans. The only improvements I would suggest for the Byn is a mounted combat field with a stable and an archery/thrown range, but I imagine this hasn't been done for whatever reason. The main thing with the other clans is the pay doesn't stack up against the indies (i can only speak for indies in Allanak), but the indies, if they're doing it right, aren't ALWAYS guzzling down sids from the salts (and if they are a big, fat arrow/monster whatever is going to find them eventually) and a fair portion of those sids are going to keep their assess covered, and to aquire items which make their difficult lives more manageable, like comfortable desert wear, tents, water, food, an apartment (if you can find one). I think someone already called me an idiot in another thread for my perception of the hazards indies face, well, they were pretty damned hazerdous to me (NPCs certainly not so much as PCs, JEEBUS! the angry PCs I've encountered have been CRAZY), I don't know what game they're playing. But generally if you move around intelligently and stay unpredictable, don't overdo it, an keep your wits about you, you can avoid some of them, but not always. Sooner or later something really nasty is going to catch you... And maybe you get a mixture of lucky and the rewards of not just spam-foraging by paying attention to your surroundings and get away.

If you're a hunter, and not a grebber or salter, suppose that's different. I haven't been on too many indie hunts, so I really can't say. But Salters were pointed out as a broken method of earning coin, but after a while of salting your butt off, more coin from one days worth of salting is a just reward for experience, means the less time you need to spend busting your hump to make ends meet and pay off everybody you need to, and more time you can spend enjoying the company of other PCs and pursuing various really interesting plotlines (yes, they are out there, not easy to find), and when those run out, shoot, join a clan. The more sids on hand, the more are available to tip those poor Runners that survived to the destination so maybe they can have a few drinks and/or affford the next contract's stables fees, or even save up for that mace they've had their eye on for a while, or buy a humble gift for someone special to them. I don't know, just a thought.

In the other thread, someone was reccomending to bring the pay of GMHs and others more in line with that of salters at the top of their game, minus food, water, shelter, etc, and throwing in more percs like private rooms (so you're not kanking in the stable behind the dungpile terrified of being noticed), permission to leave the gates and such if you know what you're doing. These sound very reasonable to me, however, I've rambled too long about why being able to make this kind of money quickly with a significant investment of time is important in a thread that's for the opposite purpose. So I should stop.

[Refugee]

Man, the Byn...

You never know what the heck you're going to get into.  That's great!  Always something happening soon.

There's almost always someone to play with.

They get a lot of staff attention.  It's often brutal, but great fun.

[Malken]

I'll tell you why the Byn is so popular, there's always something to do, something EXCITING and things that are often never the same as the week before and this!


They get a lot of staff attention.


They get a lot of staff attention.

They get a lot of staff attention.

[RogueGunslinger]

I think people like to play in the Byn because they know there's likely easy interaction with lots of people. Sort of circular. More players/player density would make other clans enjoyable for a lot of the same reasons that Fujikoma just listed.

I've played in lots of different clans over the years, and while I'd accept X-D's list of changes in a heart-beat, I think people only tend to have problems with schedules and pay when there's nobody to interact with. Because when those clans are booming with good roleplayers, I've always had a great time, regardless of if my character could buy ale in on his days off or have the best gear.

[FantasyWriter]

A good leader who keeps their underlings busy and entertained will bring all the boys and girls to the yard.

Zoan was correct just above... If you think an independent PC is getting too rich/influential report them to the nearest templar/noble/GMH/criminal organization.  These people are generally more than willing to relieve an unprotected purse of its burden.   You may even get a reward or protection of your own out of the deal, especially if done on a regular basis.

There are lots of ways to fix this "problem" OOCly, there is just as man, if not more ways to handle it in the game.

All you people who are griping about how rich independents rob the game of interactions, get out there and interact to get the problem you see solved; stop expecting others to do things for you out here when you can do them in there.

[BleakOne]

Staff attention is awesome, but I've had some boom times in clans I've been in with not much special staff stuff going on.

[Scarecrow]

The Byn is great because there's lots of people, you get to go on adventures, and you become badass if you can survive a year IC with them. It's also a great way to learn the geography and animals of Zalanthas without being a solo explorer who gets their brainz eaten right away.

[X-D]

But remember...when you join the Byn, you know that is what you are getting, hell, that is the reason to join.

Other clans who have many of the rules of the byn and the byn schedule, but not the byn lifestyle...well, they just pale.

Besides, one other great thing about the byn...and I think it figures into the thoughts of most people that play there...I can quit ANY time.

Hey sarge, I am done...Alright, give me your clan gear...here ya go...Sarge has dumped you...later. And if you have been a trooper for a while, often they even give back the three hundred you paid.

Five years later if you want, you can rejoin, often as a trooper again and at no fee..

All those reasons and more make the Byn my fav clan.

[Fujikoma]

But remember...when you join the Byn, you know that is what you are getting, hell, that is the reason to join.

Other clans who have many of the rules of the byn and the byn schedule, but not the byn lifestyle...well, they just pale.

Besides, one other great thing about the byn...and I think it figures into the thoughts of most people that play there...I can quit ANY time.

Hey sarge, I am done...Alright, give me your clan gear...here ya go...Sarge has dumped you...later. And if you have been a trooper for a while, often they even give back the three hundred you paid.

Five years later if you want, you can rejoin, often as a trooper again and at no fee..

All those reasons and more make the Byn my fav clan.

This, very much.
But I must admit I greatly enjoyed the Kuracci Fist. The thing that sucked about it was OMG NO ONE IS EVER HERE I'M GOING CRAZY! And when they are "Get to training, Recruit!"
Which is why I think it would be great if we could flood Luir's with tentdwelling grebbers and hunters with loyalty to niether city state, with humble storage lockers for their things. SO KURAC WOULD HAVE PEOPLE TO INTERACT WITH BESIDES THE RARE TRAVELLER. For me to run a kickass indie? Well, that's a small part of it, but mostly I feel Luir's is a great place and could be enjoyed much more fully with a slightly larger player population. Spice, desert elves, breeds not getting crapped on at every opportunity, awesome desert gear available for those fortunate and/or clever enough to amass the coins without travel to distant lands (but good luck getting that sweet Salarri stuff in a timely manner). Suddenly, there's people here, the lonely Fist member who's stuck tavern-sitting has someone to talk to, the Kuracci Merchant can sit around and chat when orders aren't flooding in and they aren't stationed somewhere.

Massive tent orgies, sacks filled with gemstones, pelts, easy critters, carrus standing on piles of loot, infuriated, murderous desert elves finally given flocks of insolent invader scum to set their sites on, loot piles in holes, raptors and gith feasting on the bones of those too brave to know better, BODIES EVERYWHERE.

Sorry, got a little carried away there.

[Kronibas]

Why is the Byn successful?

Other players, partially, in my opinion.  Enough of them so that someone in the clan is almost always around.  Other players = fun.  You guys can play in Tuluk with your 5 people clans, but I don't think that's very fun, diversity aside.  Again, chocolate and vanilla ice cream.


How do you get players to stop doing shit like crafting constantly?  Put them in a clan where there are actually other players to interact with on an inner-clan level, and they may put down their chisels to go do fun stuff.


RE:  staff attention.  Staff attention is fun because it gives something for a clan as a whole to rap back and react to, providing an impetus for roleplay and FUN.  Characters can and do provide similar impetuses, though, and to me, staff interaction is a great supplement for a clan... but if that's why players choose the clan, they're missing out on a whole lot.

[Malken]

How do you get players to stop doing shit like crafting constantly?  Put them in a clan where there are actually other players to interact with on an inner-clan level, and they may put down their chisels to go do fun stuff.

You keep saying that, like in all of your posts related to this topic, but the point of these threads is to find WAYS to get players into said clans.. Saying that players will come if there's awesome leaders in it is all good, and we agree, but that's just wishful thinking that suddenly there's going to be a whole bunch of clans being lead by great leaders.

The same with you saying that players will want to play in clans that there's already a whole bunch of players in it. Well, we agree with that also, but we need to get players INTO these clans to begin with, and, again, that's the whole point of these threads, to find ways to get players into the clan.

Aside from lack of time due to RL life, what makes you think that the great leaders of the past are not willing to play leaders currently? I think that's what we're trying to pinpoint, in a way.. I don't think the problem is the leaders.. There's some great leaders right now as in the past, yet we're having this discussion and the clans need lifeblood, so we need to find ways to get more people in.

[Kronibas]

I smell what you're stepping in and agree with a lot of it, but I dunno if there are any hard and fast answers or solutions.

Play time has a whole lot to do with it.  Having multiple leaders is a good way of striking against this, but the staff preemptively combats this by calling for multiple leadership roles.  Uhhh, maybe call for 3 leadership roles instead of 2?  Heh...

For me, I dunno... a solution might be trying to find ways to make playing in smaller clans more fun.  If there were more avenues for interaction besides sitting in a bar, this might be easier, but I'm not sure.  So, what might an example of this look like?  The Citizen's Call in Tuluk seemed like a REALLY good stab at this.  What if there was a place where people from different clans and, to a reasonable degree, different backgrounds could get together and train, maybe even in a clan vs. clan fashion, on a regular or semi regular basis?  Figuring out a way to pull this off without total cheese-dickiness is the hard part, IMO.

If you look at the Byn, it's really attractive because combat characters and even not-totally-combat characters can get together and always have a spot to congregate at set times, unlike a noble or GMH, where a player might login and, even if there are other PCs, they might be out doing their own thing for the entirety that the player in question is logged in for.

[Kronibas]

If you can find a way to foster interaction without lumping everyone into a big wad, it would help with this.  That's not really a small order. Being in a big wad really makes it easy to do fun stuff, a lot of it.  It is a fast track to make a clan very, very fun (successful).  Having said that, it would be neat if this fun could be had without one clan totally dominating others in terms of sheer numbers.  One way to do this is to make it not a chore for clans to interact with each other on a regular basis... outside of bars, that is.

[Malken]

For me, I dunno... a solution might be trying to find ways to make playing in smaller clans more fun.  If there were more avenues for interaction besides sitting in a bar, this might be easier, but I'm not sure.  So, what might an example of this look like?  The Citizen's Call in Tuluk seemed like a REALLY good stab at this.  What if there was a place where people from different clans and, to a reasonable degree, different backgrounds could get together and train, maybe even in a clan vs. clan fashion, on a regular or semi regular basis?  Figuring out a way to pull this off without total cheese-dickiness is the hard part, IMO.

If you look at the Byn, it's really attractive because combat characters and even not-totally-combat characters can get together and always have a spot to congregate at set times, unlike a noble or GMH, where a player might login and, even if there are other PCs, they might be out doing their own thing for the entirety that the player in question is logged in for.

I think the Byn is as popular as it is in part because the Byn represents most of what the "average" mud player is looking for in an online game. You get a lot of combat, you get a whole bunch of friends and people to gang up on others with and you get to on "adventures" often enough that you know that when you log in you could witness something totally cool. Do you get the same feeling by logging daily in a clan like Kadius or Tennshi? (Just randomly picking names, here..) I don't know..

You also mention a place where people of all clans and races could hang out together and train, well, there was the arena that was almost exactly like that, but it was shut down by Staff a few months ago. (Not sure if there's an IC reason or not for it..) and you also mention the Citizen's Call, but unfortunately that was never a popular thing with the Tuluki playerbase (Not really sure why either.. I think it's because people had no idea what it involved.. No one wanted to be that lone indie guy being trained to go against the Allanak army) - But yeah, the guy who brought the Citizen's Call idea is a saint in my book. Stuck with his role forever, tries to make things happen, etc.. Not his fault he rest of the players he's stuck with are not going along.

Now I don't want to put blame on Staff (I really am not!) but sometime it feels like they are trying really hard to split the playerbase into smaller portions.. (without going too much into details, like what's happening these days in Tuluk - mind you, it could totally be player-driven only, as well, I have no idea..) or like I said, closing down the arena where people would often gather, train together and where inter-clan interactions were often found (for better or worse)

So what do the players want! That's the question indeed..

Sorry I'm typing and replying fast, this topic interests me a lot because I'm a mostly indie type of player and I really want to be convinced to play in clans, because I know that's where the "real" Armageddon fun can be, yet it just doesn't mesh with my type of playing. (I don't really enjoy being that poor slob with no money who constantly is told to spar and that wearing a House cloak should be reward enough), I want to be in a clan where people will be extremely jealous that I managed to get myself in, and I want people lining up for weeks, if not months, just to have a chance to be in as well. Right now, when I look at other clanned characters, there's absolutely nothing that my indie character would be jealous of, in fact, he often feels a little sad for these people who are just giving up their life in exchange of "food, water and a place to sleep".

[Kronibas]

It's a lot of stuff to think about.  

This is a little random and doesn't do much justice to your response, but I wonder if Tuluk would have as many problems with getting people in clans if it were... in the center of a desert... maybe even a harsh, inhospitable, dangerous desert.

In a way, Tuluk is an independent character's, especially an independent crafter character's, wet dream.  Outside of the fact that resources are abundant, Tuluki shops are not only more abundant, but by and large, they have way more obsidian than Allanaki shops and, for the most part, even pay way more for things that are sold there. I'm not saying this stuff should be nerfed as much as I am pointing out that it probably heavily contributes to the lack of players in clans.

To the rage of northern players, nobles have done stuff like making free access to stuff like the forest and grasslands possible with only a license or fee... it was ugly.  So were those fucking tokens for individual sales, christ.


Heh, what if the north had a large group like the Byn whose job it was to be resource cops, and they patrolled the surrounding areas looking for poachers, illegal loggers, etc?  It could even be a "coalition force" of multiple groups, maybe, which would foster interaction while discouraging adding a level of complexity and challenge to the game for independents.