Independents: Poorer, Funner, Better.

[Quirk]

Starving GMHs into a background role would be great, if everyone didn't want things that aren't available in the shops. Presently, most of the gear people *want* to buy - and can *afford* to buy - combined - are available only via special order. Some of them are exclusive to specific clans, some are exclusive to "Merchant's choice" - meaning, the merchant can only sell a limited supply of item X within a Y period of time, and he gets to pick who the lucky customers will be (if any).

It's already hard enough to find employees, if you're a GMH leader. The turn-around is ridiculous, especially in Tuluk, for sponsored leader PCs. No one wants to play one, and because they come and go so quickly or there are such long lapses between the last-stored and the new-genned, everyone ELSE gets whiny and pissy, and the newest one to show up bears the burden of his failed predecessor.

That's how it is currently. And you're suggesting we make it even MORE difficult for players to enjoy playing sponsored GMH roles, by basically telling them to not even bother trying to hire anyone because their only job now is to be a vendor, and all his potential hirelings are having fun getting rich and spending sids..as independents.

All these rich fun-enjoying independents are spending their sids on what, exactly? What are they spending sids ON, when there aren't any GMH merchants to buy from, because the players have all given up trying to play one because it's too easy to burn out when you can't find anyone willing to be an employee.

How did we get here? Why are people clamouring to spend sid on specific stuff that isn't in the shops?

Isn't the problem here the result of previous measures to try and make life more desirable for the clanned merchant? In the beginning getting players hooked on speciality items only available from that clan means the merchant has new exciting goods to sell, advantages the independent doesn't. But as time wears on, those items become known and the subject of regular demands. It's the guaranteed or near-guaranteed availability of these items which becomes the weight attached to the sponsored player's foot - when it stops being "can you get me a cool sword?" and becomes "yeah, I want this specific sword" and the merchant knows a special order's needed.

Worse, this leads to an even wider disconnect between the actions of the employees of the House and the House's output. Yes, when Salarr is a massive clan guaranteed to get you every type of weapon under the sun it's hard to deal with a lack of actual PCs hunting and crafting without special order - but when getting things by special order becomes the default, actual hunters and crafters become pointless. It's a profoundly dysfunctional model at every level, and I do not believe the fix is to try to push more players to get involved with it. If we must have Salarr and Kadius, why not have them deal primarily with the contracts that are supposed to make the majority of their profits? Uniforms, bought in bulk; perhaps an occasional nicety for a noble.

And rich indies blowing all their sid on special ordered cool gear is, for me, part of the problem. Cool gear has minimal RP benefit outside occasionally getting to play MacGuffin unless there's some interesting process that leads to its creation - like an expedition to a dangerous place to get unusual materials. On the other hand, bribes, rent, survival expenses and pay for hirelings all make excellent story hooks. Boss couldn't pay what was promised? Meaty conflict right there. The rich indie should be being encouraged to start a group that will spark conflicts and intrigues; instead, we have the opposite, where the Merchant Houses squat applying pressure to any group perceived to be doing the same business as their monopoly and encouraging players to blow their sid on cool gear instead.

[Dalmeth]

That's how it is currently. And you're suggesting we make it even MORE difficult for players to enjoy playing sponsored GMH roles, by basically telling them to not even bother trying to hire anyone because their only job now is to be a vendor, and all his potential hirelings are having fun getting rich and spending sids..as independents.

The inverse of this would be why must several players be slaved to a PC GMH authority so they can feel like they matter?

I honestly do believe that most of these merchants could benefit from having a regular job.  As it stands, selling seems to be something more of a side-thing in between babysitting clannies.

[Harmless]

and cue hate cycle? 

[Lizzie]

How did we get here? Why are people clamouring to spend sid on specific stuff that isn't in the shops?

This is the cynical, jaded me talking. There's a bunch of different "Lizzies" but this one is always itching to answer questions like yours. Please don't think I feel this way about all aspects of the game. I feel this about only some aspects of it.

We got here because the constant push for new players over the years, has pushed many of the new players over from "RP-encouraged" or "RP-enforced" games where the whole point of gaming is to get more stuff.  More levels, more loot, more fancy items, more skills, bigger stats.

Many of these new players have found outside means to learn about where to get the best of this that and the other thing, and which items will give them the most/best/highest stat/score/skill bump.

Many of these new players, have since become "not so new" players, and are now teaching the newest batch of new players their methods.

So now we have a game filled with people who I believe truly do want to play an RPI, in the spirit in which it was created - but most of them still play as if it were a non-RPI because the Cleganes of the world have gone elsewhere.

It's the mindset of the players that has caused the game to be what it is. The ONLY true, real, honest-to-goodness way to "fix" it is to shut down and re-create the game from scratch.

Or, we can accept that this IS how it is...and make bandaid adjustments to give players who sincerely don't know any better, a nudge in the "right" direction. More staff oversight, instead of more player restrictions. We aren't even enforcing the restrictions we have, with regards to roleplay.   Higher-ups are urged to -not- PK people who are clearly more interested in gaining their fat loot than they are participating in scenes, even if those people are gaining more and more and more, and wearing better stuff than nobles wear just to show off how much "more" they have.

Now, you can go in game and have people who still can't type a cohesive sentence, telling your character, almost word for word from the help files, how to metagame your skills. ICly - it makes zero sense at all. But they don't care about what makes sense ICly. They care only that they're trying to "help" you learn how to get a skill bump and branch.

It's become a game of "he with the most stuff wins." And I put the responsibility to change it squarely on the players. Including myself, and I've already been adjusting my approach to the problem as I perceive it.

We need to re-teach most of the new players from this past year's batch, and the ones from the year before, how to stop using "I need more loot" as their primary goal. Kill more kryl to get more shells to sell to the shops to make more loot to have a nicer apartment so we have more room to store more shells, while Sue Crafter spam-crafts her way to master so she can make master-crafted kryl-shell stuff and get more sids and get a noble to say how awesome she is so that no one can touch her without risking pissing off the noble, which allows her to master craft something else next month, which makes her more sids, which gets her hunters more fancy kryl-resistant armor, which lets them get more kryl, etc. etc.

The above - is what I perceive the problem to be. I could be totally off, without any semblance of understanding of what the actual problem is, or even if there is a problem at all. But that is my perception of it. In order to "fix" that problem, you need to agree that it IS the problem. And then, you have to change the mindset of the players so they stop doing that. Good luck. I can only fix my own behavior, I can't fix anyone else's. "Be the change" doesn't work when you're trying to set an example to people who have completely different goals. Your example won't help them achieve their goals, and therefore, they don't give a shit that you're setting it.

/end rant

[Kronibas]

I kinda see your frustration.  I think it is important to remember that one aspect of Arm that makes it awesome is that a ton of work has been put into the code over the years, and, well, that a lot of players find that part of the game more entertaining than others.

On a MUSH, coded skill is often nonexistent; they're telnet talkers with roleplay.  There is little to no sophistication of code.

With my admittedly limited perspective, I don't see many players giving the finger to the gameworld by focusing exclusively on code.  If anything, at least where I play, the code facilitates roleplay, plots, influence, etc, and the best players know how to integrate coded goals and more intangible goals.


Also, re: the Cleganes are gone.  Josh is a badass roleplayer.  I ripped off one of his emotes I saw nearly a decade ago just yesterday.  But part of what made him so great to a lot of us was that he was older, he was one of the best writers in the game, and he had been playing Arm for a Long Time, even when people like me were just getting going.  By the time I started playing, he had already fucked over the gypsies and earned a permanent blackmark from the staff, yet he still served as a good role model through his characters, plots, and general roleplay.

*shrug*  I think there are some good leaders in this game.  Characters don't need well-written, literary emotes to be solid leaders.  I mean, look at LoD.  Did he emote?  Yeah.  Were they good emotes?  Yeah, I still use one emote regularly that he always did, just because it always stuck with me.  But they weren't Clegane emotes, and 95% of the playerbase's won't and never will be.  People stand out for all sorts of reasons.

Roleplay vs. code... What you may not know is that LoD relied heavily on the mercantile system/code in general and was labeled as a huge effing twink by some people.  And that's bullshit because he used the code to facilitate and reinforce roleplay; those people were just either jealous or had a limited perspective.  If someone like him can catch shit for using the code to facilitate interaction/plot/whatever, anyone can.  Usually, the people casting judgment have a flawed or limited perspective.

Random note:  I don't think nobles should feel very threatened by PCs with overt displays of wealth.  Do you think Bill Gates is jealous of a million dollar bling bling necklace owned by Lil Wayne? No... he probably thinks he's a dumbass for spending his money unwisely, and if not, he'll think of another reason to think Wayne's a moron.

[long live miley cyrus]

Armorcrafting for the Sand Lord in Storm is broken. My human of above average intelligence with advanced armorcrafting usually broke even or lost ten to thirty sids a day, which for a pc counting sids can be devastating. Maybe it was never meant to be a self-sustaining job, but it honestly looked like it should.

Around that same time, a spice grebber frequently kept ruining the idea of a struggling spice grebber for me with always telling me things like, "I only made two small today damn it," and they were not in any way giving me the impression that they were any worse off than the tailors. They were probably advanced or master forage, I do not know. Yes, people should totally be able to afford skimmers, but I think it should take a damn long time, and being a struggling but proud unskilled Storm worker is like 50% of the hardship for me in that town.

[Kronibas]

Armorcrafting for the Sand Lord in Storm is broken. My human of above average intelligence with advanced armorcrafting usually broke even or lost ten to thirty sids a day, which for a pc counting sids can be devastating. Maybe it was never meant to be a self-sustaining job, but it honestly looked like it should.

Around that same time, a spice grebber frequently kept ruining the idea of a struggling spice grebber for me with always telling me things like, "I only made two small today damn it," and they were not in any way giving me the impression that they were any worse off than the tailors. They were probably advanced or master forage, I do not know. Yes, people should totally be able to afford skimmers, but I think it should take a damn long time, and being a struggling but proud unskilled Storm worker is like 50% of the hardship for me in that town.

Haggle would have made the Sand Lord stuff more lucrative.  Materials bought in shops often are very limiting in terms of profit compared to gathering raw materials outside.  Risk vs. reward kinda thing, here.


The thing about leaving Storm for any reason is that it can be exceptionally dangerous without certain a certain guild/subguilds.  And even for those types, there are beetles, scrab, lurkers... other things that drift in from the Sea.

Red Storm is arguably filled with the most dangerous people, like Roadhouse on crack acid and steroids, and this is only matched by how dangerous the outlying environs are.  If people do a job like that for very long without dying, they just might not be a dumbass.

[FantasyWriter]

Yeah, always remember that lone grebbers and hunters are insane. They actually go outside!
Going outside in a place that is named after the abysmal weather next to a giant sea of quicksand-like silt... that's beyond insane.
But hey, insanity pays well until you drown, get your head bitten off by a van-sized beetle, or whisked away by an evil abomination.

[Fujikoma]

You know, reading this bitching about indies making 1k + a day... Makes me feel like you're bitching about some of my characters. Have they gotten to this point? Yes, but it took work, and maybe a little bit of poking and proding at the code to figure out. Is it easy to make 1k+ salting? No, because first you have to brave the harsh sands (where anything, ANYTHING can happen, whether you believe it or not I have seen some scary crap), and slowly work your forage up there. You likely DO NOT want to be salting every stinking IG day, because you should be keeping your ears open for who needs what, and it's dangerous, the whole time my PC is out there my pulse is freaking pounding, l n l e l w l s (even though you're already watching one of these directions), keeping my eyes peeled for Meks, hordes of scrab, the occassional gith, raptor packs, strange breezes, oh shit the sky is falling time to get in!

And by the time you can make 1k sid in a day salting, do you really want to? You've invested some time developing your character, greasing the right palms, making friends and secret alliances, these things take work, you've also got customers for the fruits of your grebbing from other places, because that time you spent -not- making money actually turns into -making- money after a while, by providing much needed goods and services to those who would either be forced to go out themselves or SOL. The more time you spend doing the same thing, in near to the same place, the more chance someone will notice. Trust me, raiders are scary, rogue gickers are scary, you've got things you've got going on that matter to your PC more than stuffing Nenyuck with coin. And where does all that coin go? Bribes, GMHs for goods, feeding and watering the less fortunate, rent, bailing a friend out of a desperate situation (if even possible), drinks to curry favor and generally be thought of as alright. This money YOU DO NOT KEEP, it goes to entertaining and providing for those clans YOU DID NOT JOIN, and WHY? Because it's something to do, it's a realistic objective for a PC who's found a way to wheel and deal their way into coins. This PC knows they're not going to live forever, they're surrounded by death, misfortune, jealousy, enemies around every corner, and no one to bail their butt out when Senor Prissypants decides, OOC, that so and so is doing too good to live, UNLESS they take steps to make sure they're covered.

So no, you don't want to salt every stinking day of the week and stuff Nenyuk full of coins, because it's scary dangerous, even off-peak, and the whole time, you're spending your money on other people (partly OOC because you know they can't make the money to buy drinks, etc., but a convenient IC excuse exists) because you're just that kind of person. Hammering independents for their coin is not going to make GMHs and such any more fun, but take coin out of their pocket, prevent the Byn from having independent contracts, lower the amount of goods available to independent merchants and houses which may need something they can't seem to aquire for whatever reason, and reduce the materials available at a reasonable price to clanned players who make money on the side to pay their rent and buy drinks and special treats through crafting and such.

This is just my opinion, feel free to disagree, this is what I have seen in my limited experience, and if there are rich indies running around, I haven't seen many of them last all -that- long before they ran afoul of something, but I don't generally play in Tuluk and Luir's needs more business and interaction anyway because for the people stuck there every day all day it can get BORING. Make clans more fun by increasing pay to where they can reasonably entertain themselves in their free hours, cut them more slack on schedules, maybe let them perform certain activities under certain strict conditions that will allow them to patch the holes in their income, because RPing a slave with three hours a night of freedom and maybe a couple days off an IG week (which is a RL day, for cripe's sake!) in order to RP with clan outsiders, make contacts, mudsex, etc., is freaking lame and totally no fun after a while. Saying "Those indies risking their butts out there all by themselves to bring things in and sling coin around to us that don't have as much" because you're jealous is not productive. If salting 1k a day is all that safe and you think you'd like that better compared to getting your delicious meals and water and a roof over your head, places to keep your things, and potential instant friends, all without having to really work for it aside from find some recruiter's mind, then by all means, quit your job and hit the salts.

So yeah, most of my PCs end up in clans, being an indie is hard work, and even with the coin, few truly appreciate what your PC does, and then they get swallowed by some huge monster in one bite. Maybe there are indie players lining Nenyuk with coins, wearing silks and trying to pass themselves off as nobility, but I never see them, and I doubt they'd last long if they appeared in public like that. But as I said, there's a certain city I don't play in.

/rant

[long live miley cyrus]

I think a person can be a good fighter and have decent knowledge of the gameworld and have lived for a while, while still being one of those people Lizzie was talking about, who, when I talk about how hard it is for spice grebbers, says something like, "What? I'm disappointed if I don't make four hundred sids a week spice grebbing." Not the exact words, but close to it.

With regards to those people, I think its more of a perception problem for a few than a coded problem for everybody, and that regardless of what happens to moneymaking in the game, if these people don't drop the rpg Swimming-In-Money mentality, they'll find ways to exploit the system.

Nobles should be absolutely swimming in money, though. There should be a thing where they can drop by Nenyuk's, and withdraw anywhere from 1 to 1000 a RL day without having to do anything. That way, a pc noble, who is not all-powerful and still beneath upper nobles or whatever they're called, can regularly eat foreign food at the most expensive tavern while taking a somewhat morbid interest in paying for mercenaries to kill a random criminal hiding in Luir's/Storm. All the while complaining that their 3,000 sid shoes hurt their feet during the occasional walk to Nenyuk's. And so walking to the bank once a RL day doesn't become a weird thing, this money can accrue over time.

EDIT: I'm not complaining about spice grebbers making a lot and getting used to it; I just think it runs counter to the echoes you see in the tavern, and the local culture that's reinforced by the occasional room description and npc mdesc.

[Quirk]

I'm broadly on the same page, Lizzie, but personally, I think people carrying the D&D/rogue-like attitude of "need more loot! need better loot!" into the game only become a real problem when the game starts bending to satisfy this urge in ways that hurt storytelling.

I strongly feel that the whole point of an RPI is the stories that are created. Stories need hooks. Greed is a pretty good hook. But something needs done with that hook: Greedy Amos wants a weapon better than anyone else's so Amos spam-forages in a remote location to earn five thousand sids to special order the top of the line sword from Salarr is, frankly, a terrible story. There are lots of ways to make it a better story. Greedy Amos goes to Crafter Malik, and Malik tells him that the best sword he knows of was made of bahamet shell and Amos will have to bring him some. Greedy Amos has to deal with an elf who's reputed to be a great swordsmith. Greedy Amos cashes in a favour to have a sword stolen from someone important. Greedy Amos rolls into town rich with the proceeds of some unsavoury endeavour, and a cut-throat competition for Amos' money begins between Crafters Malik and Talia.

When PCs are playing mobile vending machines which can magic up the best gear without running any risk or getting anyone else involved, we're seeing a terrible waste of greed as a story hook. When the mobile vending machines are then trying to jump in to stop some of the stories that could use that hook coming to life, we've got to an odd, bad place. I don't think it's an altogether new place, but it might be manifesting in some worse ways than previously.

I don't think the game needs torn down and started over, although Arm 2.0 had many good ideas and a better understanding of some of these issues. Within the setting, there are better stories to tell. The bazaar of Allanak is surely full of them: stories featuring feuds and struggles for survival and the fractured tribal enmities of the elves. The dullest part of the game lies in the static relationships of the richest Houses. Allowing those to retreat into the same VNPC space Nenyuk occupies and letting smaller organisations tell more daring stories on a smaller scale would make a huge difference. It wouldn't take a great deal to start such a process: perhaps some eminent Salarri or Kadian, listening to the protests of younger members of the House, decides that dealing with the many incessant requests of those of low social class is a waste of time when most coin in the House's pocket comes from the large deals cut with Great Houses and city-states, and decrees that the House will no longer deal with such people. A space would open up for PC competition, and smaller organisations would jostle to supply the grebbers and hunters in much the same way as a trip round the bazaar would suggest is already happening.

[Barzalene]

I think there is an interesting distinction to be made. I don't think the targets of this conversation are the people who are playing independents because they have an indie concept or because they don't enjoy clans. I think the "issue" are the people who say they are playing indies for the wealth opportunities.

Maybe that is obvious and goes without saying, but there have been a few posts that made me think it might be worth clarifying.

[Synthesis]

Eh, every time I've played in a GMH or a noble house, there have always been tons of plots and stories going on.  Sure, the GMH special-app PC spends a lot of time sitting around vending items, but that's because a) it's one of his IC jobs, b) he gets money for it, c) making people happy with their items makes them happy to do things for you, d) it's too dangerous to actually go out and do the things you've ordered your minions to do, and e) he's spending a bunch of time in the bar anyway because 90% of the command & control job can be handled via the Way.  This idea that GMHs must be stagnant because the family member always seems to be idling around the bar is, from my experience, completely wrong.

As far as the "vending machine" aspect is concerned, the fact that GMHs can request items out of storage is largely a matter of convenience for everyone, because a) not every GMH special-app is a crafter, b) even if they were a crafter, there's no guarantee they'd have the appropriate skill, and have it trained well enough to craft the item in question, and c) a good majority of GMH items aren't linked to a crafting recipe in the first place (and nobody wants to go through such a massive database and fix something that quite frankly doesn't need to be fixed).

[Fujikoma]

I think there is an interesting distinction to be made. I don't think the targets of this conversation are the people who are playing independents because they have an indie concept or because they don't enjoy clans. I think the "issue" are the people who say they are playing indies for the wealth opportunities.

Maybe that is obvious and goes without saying, but there have been a few posts that made me think it might be worth clarifying.

Is possible, but some of the "solutions" will seriously harm legitimate business, in the interests of hurting a few players who aren't playing the game correctly.

[Bogre]

As far as Lizzie's rant goes, it is not a new phenomenon at all. A lot of the older players long ago were just as item/promotion/skillpower centric as are new players now. And there was a significant lot of them that were experienced enough to know the code extremely well and use it to their advantage. It's a symptom of playing a coded RPI. Hell, when I started, loot and gathering shit was one of the biggest things I loved about the game. We're not suddenly getting a horde of newbies that are somehow any different from the ones we got in previous years.

What makes Arm great though is that you can actively play a character who runs around in a loin cloth with a bone club and still have fun.

Personally, I don't think it's the killer gear that makes people play independents. House and GMH guys always have the badass stuff (I mean, sure, you can bring up the certain POS looking items that actually has badass stats but whatever), and the independents are running around in whatever they can manage to afford from the NPC shops. Personally, I think the House armors are some of the neatest-looking stuff in the game. (Tor Scorpions look hawt, ya'll).

One thing that could be interesting would be to de-link the Nenyuk accounts. So no depositing 5000 coins in Allanak and withdrawing them in Luirs, you have them all separate. Have your ass drag them around. I'm less sure putting taxes or whatever on the accounts would help much.


I've also said this time and time again: Nobody remembers your indie get rich quick chars that last 2 months. People remember Sergeants and Byn Lieutenants and people that make the game shine.

[Bogre]

And yes, I think a bigger issue than the money is that independents have all the opportunities to go play hide and seek with mekillots that they want. Clanned chars are a lot more restricted, and you might feel a lot more attached to not letting them die. Independent characters might link to a bigger 'throwaway character' mindset, where the player is just having fun without the responsibility.

[ShaLeah]

And yes, I think a bigger issue than the money is that independents have all the opportunities to go play hide and seek with mekillots that they want. Clanned chars are a lot more restricted, and you might feel a lot more attached to not letting them die. Independent characters might link to a bigger 'throwaway character' mindset, where the player is just having fun without the responsibility.

In fairness, playing devil's advocate, truth is that clans are only as restricted as the current leader is. I know of leaders who let their people have freedom, fuck the past. Balls to the wall.

[FreeRangeVestric]

And yes, I think a bigger issue than the money is that independents have all the opportunities to go play hide and seek with mekillots that they want. Clanned chars are a lot more restricted, and you might feel a lot more attached to not letting them die. Independent characters might link to a bigger 'throwaway character' mindset, where the player is just having fun without the responsibility.

In fairness, playing devil's advocate, truth is that clans are only as restricted as the current leader is. I know of leaders who let their people have freedom, fuck the past. Balls to the wall.

Not entirely true. My leader PC was told to enforce what I think of as the biggest 'restriction' that people complain about clans having straight from the staff, when even the most loose deviation from the 'don't leave the gates without a higher-up' rule was being discussed.

That said, I don't really have a problem with that sort of restriction, since they have mostly been enforced for realistic reasons in my experience.

[Malken]

The whole point of what begun in Armageddon Random Thoughts was not how to kill every ways for an indie to make money but how to make Houses in general MORE attractive for a larger part of the playerbase.

This has turned into a ridiculous back and forth that leads absolutely nowhere and, in many cases, is simply eye-rolling worthy.

[Patuk]

I dunno. I never bothered to check whether or not the people under my sponsored role kept to the schedule/stayed within the gates or not, and staff never really seemed to mind in that case. On the other hand, I died rather quickly, so maybe there wasn't the time.

[Malken]

I dunno. I never bothered to check whether or not the people under my sponsored role kept to the schedule/stayed within the gates or not, and staff never really seemed to mind in that case. On the other hand, I died rather quickly, so maybe there wasn't the time.

I need to know what sponsored role you've played because I find it highly hard to believe that Staff would not care if you started allowing all of your clannies to go outside the gates if they were not supposed to and could do what the hell they wanted.

What kind of leader were you anyway if you "never bothered to check" what they were doing in the first place?

Remember that in any of the roles you play, you are not King Borsail or Prince Salarr, you are just a low almost-nobody kind of guy who was lucky enough that the 20 smart brothers he had in front of him in the succession lineage are all dead and the family has no choice now but to give you a chance.

You don't make the rules, you need to enforce what your higher ups have decided what would be better for the people under you. Not giving a flying fuck about what your clannies are doing is just as worse as telling them not to do anything and telling them to spar all day long. It's not because you think you can tell them that they are free as a bird to go forth and prosper that Staff won't animate Senior Salarr and tell you to knock it off and start acting like a leader.

[Patuk]

I dunno. I never bothered to check whether or not the people under my sponsored role kept to the schedule/stayed within the gates or not, and staff never really seemed to mind in that case. On the other hand, I died rather quickly, so maybe there wasn't the time.

I need to know what sponsored role you've played because I find it highly hard to believe that Staff would not care if you started allowing all of your clannies to go outside the gates if they were not supposed to and could do what the hell they wanted.

What kind of leader were you anyway if you "never bothered to check" what they were doing in the first place?

Remember that in any of the roles you play, you are not King Borsail or Prince Salarr, you are just a low almost-nobody kind of guy who was lucky enough that the 20 smart brothers he had in front of him in the succession lineage are all dead and the family has no choice now but to give you a chance.

You don't make the rules, you need to enforce what your higher ups have decided what would be better for the people under you. Not giving a flying fuck about what your clannies are doing is just as worse as telling them not to do anything and telling them to spar all day long. It's not because you think you can tell them that they are free as a bird to go forth and prosper that Staff won't animate Senior Salarr and tell you to knock it off and start acting like a leader.

Please don't tell me what I was doing on a character you may not have known at all, let alone in building arguments off of it. It won't have you convince anyone.

But then this is the gdb, so I guess convincing people is out of the question.

[Malken]

You come into this thread and write a tiny two line sentences, half of which is you telling us that your PC didn't care/bothered to check if your clannies left the gates or stuck to schedules and you're telling me I'm making shit up? Wow.

The only reason I'm replying to you is because I certainly don't want future leaders to think that what you did with your leader sponsored role (which I'm taking from your own words) is something they should do if they want to attract more players in their clans.

[Patuk]

Someone posted that they had staff chase them when they dropped some of the more restrictive rules in their clan. I reiterated by saying that I did not experience such strictness myself.

If you feel the need to add to my story from there in assuming my thoughts and other actions, fine, but don't expect me to like it or agree.

[williamson]

Let's try to stay on topic and keep our disagreements polite before the thread gets locked.