Independents: Poorer, Funner, Better.

[Narf]

... Funner's a word now. Just so you know.

Anyways, I know there's a gazillion of these threads but I wanted to focus it a bit on something more positive. I wanted to brainstorm ideas that would simultaneously make independents less able to access unrealistic amounts of wealth, and make them more fun to play.

All ideas on this particular thread should aim for both goals at once. If you want to come up with ideas that just aim for one or the other, make your own thread.

Anyways, some ideas that other people have mentioned that I really liked:

Tickets for Nenyuk accounts:  This would allow people to more easily take independent's wealth away from them, forcing independents to take precautions.

Restrict access to wealth by templars (or provide options for what they can do with wealth that exceed their existing means): This encourages shakedowns, and mostly works like the above except that the independents are less able to retaliate, but also less likely to die as a side effect of the shakedown.

Both of these options have their problems (wealth creep, and causing players to speed walk away when they see PC templars coming), but I think they're at least trying to solve the problem of excessive wealth possessed by indies while simultaneously giving them more interaction.

[FreeRangeVestric]

I'm all for the ticket idea, but I don't see the logic behind exempting clanned PC's from the same system. They'd already be better off for having a (basically) inaccessible place to keep their tickets.

There's also the fact that thieves will become amazingly wealthy, and likely even more fiercely hunted down as well, making the whole "Chase that elf! You know, the only one in the city!" scenario that already happens too much probably more commonplace.

[TimTembo]

A: No coins.

B: An "elite" currency (small bits of metal)? Discuss.

[Zerero]

Force all independents to join the Byn, take away off-days.

[Lizzie]

1. A modest tax on Unaffiliated peoples' bank accounts, beyond the first 1000 deposited.

This would allow new out-of-chargen characters to save some coins, because yeah it's really easy to get rich, but not right out of the box. You still need to buy a few things, water, a mount, bags, etc. etc. and you'd have nothing left over for awhile. So let them save 1000 sids without any penalty at all.  After that, a flat 5% deposit fee for all deposits by anyone who isn't affiliated with a clan.

combined with

2. A new implementation on shop code (I've mentioned this in the past):
ALL characters can sell two of anything, to any shop, during any single-week period. No one can sell more than two of anything, to any shop, within the single-week period. So no more loading up the shop with "5 of each," thus preventing everyone else from selling anything, and making them stuck with their goods and no sids. This helps prevent the reboot-rushers from getting rich while the off-peakers stare at the NPC, frustrated, or worse - be doomed to salt/sift/claydig/cottonpick forever.

3. Another implementation in the shop code: encourage people to buy/sell things in their own city, and not somewhere else, without actually preventing them from buying/selling somewhere else. Nakkis pay more in Tuluk, and get less. Tulukis pay more in Allanak, and get less. Both of them get less and pay more than natives in Red Storm. Everyone except for elven and human tribes that are based out of the tablelands pay more and get less in Blackwing. Call it a global tourist tax on goods purchased and sold.

[Eyeball]

(removed)

[Harmless]

Anyone who isn't politically influential, a merchant with direct GMH or other similar involvement, etc, has no business whatsoever owning more than 10,000 coins. Some people just abuse the "broken economy" and it's kind of irritating. It's especially irritating when these rich indies lord it over everyone else, when they didn't do anything truly special to get it, just did a lot of the tricks that most of us know, but a lot more often.

Therefore, I am fully in support of a strict tax for balances over 5,000. To start. I think, from there, things like forced involvement, at least financially, in clan/city politics would be a good next step, i.e., if you have more than 10,000 coins and you're NOT investing it in your favorite city-state... well, clearly then you're a rebellious sort! etc.

Templars already do this a little, but they are not empowered to do it. By not being empowered to -fairly- taxate, they either taxate unfairly or not at all. This can be remedied by a system that puts limits on what templars can do, but also empowers them to do something like take a portion off whatever is in someone's bank account once a year, with some physical limitation (i.e., needing both parties to be present in the bank at the time, which is easy enough to do with a Half-giant guard facilitating things.)

One time, with a PC I had a few years ago, I had a templar arrest me. Later, I was coerced by the templar to drain some of my bank account and give it to him. I was scared shitless, but I complied -- except that I withdrew a pretty random number of coins to give him, and claimed it was all I had. Of course, my PC was lying about this, but the templar had no coded means, whatsoever, to check what was in my bank account. I would rather they have some ability to just raid my account a little -- it'd feel less like I was getting away with cheating a templar and more like I was being screwed by the man, which is how it should feel in my opinion.

I am not sure I like the idea of just having nenyuk shave coins off the top, because it's too stiff and coded and gamey. I like the idea of taxation plenty if it means more plots, so I think allowing templars to happily raid accounts is a better implementation of the same idea.

[RogueGunslinger]

I actually don't get this topic title. Independents are richer, isolated, and die quicker. Sometime they're more fun, because they have the freedom to go out and kill  scrabs/supply themselves with the things they need. And sometimes they're less fun because you don't always get in on a wealth of roleplaying opportunities like rough circle/RPT's and more people for interaction.

Somehwat off topic, and just a though, but they both have problems that could possibly be alleviated by just having more players concentrated in an area. More player density means more Sergeants around to do fun stuff with, more independents around that you can organize with, more opportunities in general for roleplay with eachother, and make coins from those opportunities and die less because they wouldn't get bored and feel the need to do somethign stupid. /pipedream

[Narf]

I actually don't get this topic title. Independents are richer, isolated, and die quicker. Sometime they're more fun, because they have the freedom to go out and kill  scrabs/supply themselves with the things they need. And sometimes they're less fun because you don't always get in on a wealth of roleplaying opportunities like rough circle/RPT's and more people for interaction.

Somehwat off topic, and just a though, but they both have problems that could possibly be alleviated by just having more players concentrated in an area. More player density means more Sergeants around to do fun stuff with, more independents around that you can organize with, more opportunities in general for roleplay with eachother, and make coins from those opportunities and die less because they wouldn't get bored and feel the need to do somethign stupid. /pipedream

The purpose of the thread is to brainstorm ideas that will make independents more fun to play /and/ limit their wealth.

It's a brainstorming thread.

There should be ideas here, and they should be pitched in such a way that they accomplish both goals. If they are not meant to accomplish both goals they need to go in a different thread (one that is in my opinion, doomed to degenerate into another hate-cycle thread)

[williamson]

Anyone who isn't politically influential, a merchant with direct GMH or other similar involvement, etc, has no business whatsoever owning more than 10,000 coins.

I completely disagree. Consider the bounty hunter that kills someone for a large bounty. They can make a huge fortune in a single day. You may or may not be in a clan playing a bounty hunter. Consider a fearsome raider, an Allanaki city elf merchant, a talented burglar, an Allanaki bard, characters that live in Red Storm, or a whore. They could all have reasonable ways to make a lot of money and never be in a clan. Trust me people. The way to encourage people to play in clans is to make clans better and not to think up ways to screw over independent characters.

In the end, you really can't stop characters from making money because it's capitalism. If you do something (spy, raid, steal, hunt, trade, whore, con, guard, assassinate, entertain) to make money, eventually people that play a lot and survive for a long time are going to accumulate wealth. I think a lot of players see wealthy independent characters and make the mistake that they made all this money by spam crafting and hunting scrabs for two months. I've played Arm for 20 years and played in many of the clans in the game. I've also played a lot of independents. It's much easier to make a lot of coins in a clan then out of one. Just don't think you're going to make a lot of coins by joining a clan alone. Eventually, you have to quit sparring, tavern sitting, and mud sexing and do something within your clan that makes money.

[Harmless]

It's fine and good to have more than 10,000 coins, but you need to keep it a secret; you're hinting at that, by citing things like bounty hunters, bards, etc... all types who can earn tremendous sums doing clandestine activities. The problem is that their ability to hide their wealth is perfect, by depositing it in the bank.

I'm cool with secret bounty hunters and assassins and the like having ridiculous sums to their name. I just wish that it wasn't as simple to hide that fortune as ">deposit 10000".

To amend my statement:

Anyone who isn't politically influential, a merchant with direct GMH or other similar involvement, etc, has no business whatsoever owning more than 10,000 coins conveniently, such as in a bank.

There, I fixed my point, williamson. Counterpoints? Also, remember -- this is a brainstorming thread!

[ShaLeah]

Four tiers of economy pricing:

• Price A if you're clanned that store - cannot haggle
• Price B if you're clanned a TEMPLAR, SOLDIER or a NOBLE HOUSE. - can haggle, better chances
• Price C if you're clanned any other GMH within the city - can haggle, normal haggle according to character haggling
• Price D if you're unaffiliated - haggle penalty, slight disadvantage
Make the areas with the greater ease of hunting a greater danger of hunting alone.
Unaffiliated commoners would lose say 15% of their sid deposited in order for it to be kept safe. All others would be charged no fee.

[FreeRangeVestric]

Why does Nenyuk care one iota if you're initiate hunter/militia recruit/Byn runner Amos/Talia? This bank tax only on the unaffiliated thing seems entirely artificial and silly to me, and as I said in that other thread (but I'm never one to shy away from harping on about things!), hurts the independents who are playing legitimately far worse than it hurts the ones everyone feels are a problem.

That said, I think a bank tax in general would add a lot of intrigue to the game, by forcing people to find other, less failsafe ways of keeping their 'sid. I just see no reason why it should be limited to independents alone. Maybe make it so that the highborn and clan accounts are exempt, but beyond that, it is a bad idea in my opinion.

[Wish]

I like the changes proposed in the RAT thread that suggest making Nenyuk behave in any way like an actual bank (however remote the similarities).  Right now the bank is an ooc convenience for player wealth organization with no social, political, or economic repercussions - an escaped mul visiting the Luirs branch is treated exactly the same as the richest Kadian merchant in Tuluk.  Mount stables, with their ability to keep mounts in stasis forever for a flat fee of 20 coins worldwide, behave more realistically than the Bank of Nenyuk.

Balance caps, taxes, physical proof of wealth or identity, levels of account privilege...these are all great starts.  I hope someday we'll see some of them implemented.  Changing the way money works at the source might do a lot to make the economy feel more robust and realistic, and make endgame wealth a bit more challenging to manage for independent players.

Right now the Bank of Nenyuk in no way differs from a bank on any hack and slash mud, and given that Armageddon is the best RPI out there, I think that's a shame.

[HavokBlue]

Are indies with 10,000+ coins really as common as people in this thread make them out to be?


I guess I'm just awful at the economy.

[Eyeball]

(removed)

[X-D]

I agree with the "artificial" feel.

Also, what exactly is unrealistic amount of wealth? When you consider that a mug of ale can be 30 coins then 3k really is not much at all...So, What, 5k, 10k, 100k? And what exactly makes it unrealistic?

Also, is this really an issue...I mean come on, so Amos the indy has nice armor and 100k in the bank...So what? First off, odds are Amos will be dead in another couple weeks and a week later nobody will even remember who he was, the game world keeps on turning. And I don't see it as an issue. 1 in 100 indies make it any real amount of time with real money, and maybe 1 in 1000 have that AND some influence.

As to the ticket idea...explain to me exactly why Nenyuk would want to lose the main source of income? They would not, as it stands, when a PC (and supposedly npc/vnpc) Dies, all money reverts to Nenyuk. If they had tickets then that money would never revert to them but to whoever got the tickets. They would never submit to that big a cut in the bottom line.

Oh, as to the haggle...Eh, most PCs do not have or use it anyway.

As to the "No business whatsoever" Get real, all the GMH's and other things started from nothing....if no indy had reason to have 10+ in the bank then no merchant houses, not even the bank would exist.

Really, the only 2 ideas I could get behind...you want it harder for the indies?
#1 KILL THEM! Abuse them, rob them...murder corruption betrayal...be the change.
#2 More desert/wilderness baddies, both PC and NPC, hidden, running, grouped, poison...Fireants and gith death squads back in game.

Lastly

There should be ideas here, and they should be pitched in such a way that they accomplish both goals. If they are not meant to accomplish both goals they need to go in a different thread (one that is in my opinion, doomed to degenerate into another hate-cycle thread)

If you really think you get a thread where everybody has to agree with you, your idea etc...then you are sadly mistakin as to how the GDB works...and rather lame thinking as well. Because trying to have such a thing makes it look like we all agree with the idea that there is even a need for this thread/ideas.

Oh and Havok...No, they are not common.

[Harmless]

I can say one thing for sure, wealthy PCs are overrepresented on the GDB.

[Wish]

As to the ticket idea...explain to me exactly why Nenyuk would want to lose the main source of income? They would not, as it stands, when a PC (and supposedly npc/vnpc) Dies, all money reverts to Nenyuk. If they had tickets then that money would never revert to them but to whoever got the tickets. They would never submit to that big a cut in the bottom line.

Please don't make the assumption that because other players cannot codedly retrieve coins from the bank when you die that the coin of dead pcs is Nenyuk's main source of income.  There is no vault somewhere with the obsidian coins of ten thousand dead newbies piled high to the ceiling like Scrooge McDuck's tower.  The dead pc coin thing makes NO IC sense,  which is just fine - because as I said in an earlier post, Nenyuk currently makes about as much sense ICly as the bank in any hack and slash mud.  Sometimes an ooc convenience is just an ooc convenience.  Sometimes the code is just the code.  And that's perfectly okay to accept and understand. 

Discussions about how to make Nenyuk at all realistic are great, but realism is the key word here.  There's nothing realistic about Nenyuki bankers instantly knowing with Force powers when some half elf with 300 sid in his account snuffs it, or Nenyuk taking every last thin coin of that Oash noble who ODed on spice at a Fale orgy.

[HavokBlue]

Well, yeah there is, because the Way exists.

[MeTekillot]

I think being an indie should be a tooth-and-nail miserable experience unless you've got 5-6 dudes in your crew and you're pretty heavily into your indie career.

[X-D]

Please don't make the assumption that because other players cannot codedly retrieve coins from the bank when you die that the coin of dead pcs is Nenyuk's main source of income.  There is no vault somewhere with the obsidian coins of ten thousand dead newbies piled high to the ceiling like Scrooge McDuck's tower.  The dead pc coin thing makes NO IC sense,  which is just fine - because as I said in an earlier post, Nenyuk currently makes about as much sense ICly as the bank in any hack and slash mud.  Sometimes an ooc convenience is just an ooc convenience.  Sometimes the code is just the code.  And that's perfectly okay to accept and understand. 

Discussions about how to make Nenyuk at all realistic are great, but realism is the key word here.  There's nothing realistic about Nenyuki bankers instantly knowing with Force powers when some half elf with 300 sid in his account snuffs it, or Nenyuk taking every last thin coin of that Oash noble who ODed on spice at a Fale orgy.

Well, I should not have said main, because it is not the main source of income. But it is respectable.

As to it not making sense...Huh...how is that now?   Lets see, Malik the grebber breed deposits 300 coin...Malik Never reclaims the coins...Nenyuk need not know he is dead or care...Why, because there are thousands of Maliks, eventually the amount of unclaimed coin is more then the amount of coin that can be claimed, this allows nenyuk to use that coin because they can still cover any possible withdrawal...Hell, banking today IRL works on less.

As to Nenyuk not making sense to you in an IC sense...Maybe you should read the docs or ask staff...Nenyuk is a working house...it makes perfect IC and monetary sense...if you know everything they do.

Or maybe Get one of the players who might still be around from when it was open for play that played a nenyuk PC to explain it to you.

Though, on the Oash noble comment...They would only get his Private savings...remember, all houses/clans etc have accounts as well...So, unless Oash itself goes defunct...Nenyuk never gets to keep that fund.

[Zoan]

So now you have all the money in the world...now what?

Yawn, independents.

[X-D]

Exactly.

[Dar]

Personally. I dont think the goal is to make the gameplay of indies somehow different. The goal is to make joining a clan more interesting and rewarding then remaining indies. Which in a sense, might involve harming indies. Want to avoid the harm? Go join a house. Simple.  So it's not that independents are extremely rich. It is that independents tend to be significantly richer then house members. Which is fine. They worked hard for their coin. But that does not make the clan membership more fun and rewarding, but it should be.


As far as it being artificial for indies needing to pay fees for Nenyuk services, while hired employees do not. That is actually pretty simple. Hired employees 'do' need to pay the fee, except the house they belong to negotiated a corporate payment and is paying those fees as a house whole. Much like trading licenses. An Indie needs a license from templars to trade stuff. A house member does not, because the house 'itself' pays the tax of its employees.  Though in my opinion, this feature will hardly make joining the house any more enticing, so meh.

The idea to entice joining the houses is, amongst other things, to allow the house members be more economically and influentially powerful then independents. That is not always so. Plenty of people are making it better. Preferential treatment, choosing the unconnected for beat downs and shake downs, it's wonderful. Though possibly not enough.

Granted. Eventually there comes an unconnected grebber who knows the gameworld enough, twinked enough, and played enough to become capable of procuring items one can 'not' get easily as a house member. Very rare gemstones, very rare materials, etc. Those people rack up influence 'quick', simply because they're one of the few sources of 'whatever', and 10 other house members will not be able to do, what this 1 guy can. Change the grebber into burglar, or assassin, or spy, or traveling merchant, the meaning stays the same. But ... those people also die. Most of what they do is dangerous, and in the end they are "supposed" to be expendable.

As long as people keep in mind the social hierarchy (and many do), it wont be so horrible. Though every time I hear something like, I prefer not to deal with nobles, they ask for a lot, but cant afford me. I die a little on the inside.