how to differentiate between rough dominating sex and rape

[evilcabbage]

Hello Staff,

First I wanted to thank you on the difficulty you go through every day or every time problems come up and the time and agony that it takes you as volunteers to sift through the information and make a judgement.

The other thing I wanted to ask, and since the thread on the discussion got closed too quickly for me to post this is what differentiates rape from rough or just dominating sex? I guess in my mind rape in the past would have been OOC'dly consented to, however IC it would not be. I have on occasion had PCs that had lovers that would enjoy a pretend rape type session (for lack of better words). These sessions were always consented to both OOC'dly and IC and both characters knew exactly what was involved and it was worked out in advance as to what the stopping point would be or where going too far was too far. Are these instances still acceptable?

As quoet from Slvrmoontiger


Rough dominating sex: MM YEAH HARDER YES

Rape: no stop dont not there

Any more questions on a very simple easy to answer questions? Rape rape is what is being banned, not "hey let's pretend" situations.

[ShaLeah]

If rough sex is banned there wouldn't be hardly any sex at all. Heh.

[ale six]

Except in Tuluk.

*ducks*

[Zoan]

Mudsex is so taboo in Tuluk even the Nobles aren't allowed to do it, and Nobles literally have nothing else to do in this game.

[Desertman]

Mudsex is so taboo in Tuluk even the Nobles aren't allowed to do it, and Nobles literally have nothing else to do in this game.

I always thought they were supposed to function sort of like mini Dungeon Masters and hand out quests and give the other players in the world things to do.

I often times find I am wrong about that and their purpose is to sit in taverns, talk only to other nobles, and buy silk.

[Zoan]

They sit in taverns and wear wine and sip fine silks. I've never played a Noble.

[Morgenes]

If both characters have IC consented to it, it is by definition not rape.  Like all adult scenes, you must ask OOC consent for how it will be described (FTB or played out, etc..).  We are working out an official 'definition' of what is rape, but you can guess some of how we are leaning based on this answer.

[slvrmoontiger]

If both characters have IC consented to it, it is by definition not rape.  Like all adult scenes, you must ask OOC consent for how it will be described (FTB or played out, etc..).  We are working out an official 'definition' of what is rape, but you can guess some of how we are leaning based on this answer.

Morgenes, thank you for the reply.

So just because both characters have OOC'dly consented in the past, it means that it okay for someone to pursue them even after IC'dly they say no? Or does each episode require both OOC'dly talking things out and consenting?

[FantasyWriter]

This is what safe words are for.  Double bonus points if you use Armageddon.

[Morgenes]

If both characters have IC consented to it, it is by definition not rape.  Like all adult scenes, you must ask OOC consent for how it will be described (FTB or played out, etc..).  We are working out an official 'definition' of what is rape, but you can guess some of how we are leaning based on this answer.

Morgenes, thank you for the reply.

So just because both characters have OOC'dly consented in the past, it means that it okay for someone to pursue them even after IC'dly they say no? Or does each episode require both OOC'dly talking things out and consenting?

I'm not understanding what you're asking, and don't want to answer until I'm clear.  Can you go into more details about what you mean.  I hear you say:

You IC: I'd like to have sex with you.

They IC: No

You OOC: Is it ok to pursue this as me forcing this on you?

This is not ok.  Forcing sex is rape.

I said the following would be ok:

You IC: I'd like to act like I'm raping you as we have sex.

They IC: Ok.

You OOC: How would you like to role play this out?

They OOC: FTB please

That is ok.

[slvrmoontiger]

If both characters have IC consented to it, it is by definition not rape.  Like all adult scenes, you must ask OOC consent for how it will be described (FTB or played out, etc..).  We are working out an official 'definition' of what is rape, but you can guess some of how we are leaning based on this answer.

Morgenes, thank you for the reply.

So just because both characters have OOC'dly consented in the past, it means that it okay for someone to pursue them even after IC'dly they say no? Or does each episode require both OOC'dly talking things out and consenting?

I'm not understanding what you're asking, and don't want to answer until I'm clear.  Can you go into more details about what you mean.  I hear you say:

You IC: I'd like to have sex with you.

They IC: No

You OOC: Is it ok to pursue this as me forcing this on you?

This is not ok.  Forcing sex is rape.

I said the following would be ok:

You IC: I'd like to act like I'm raping you as we have sex.

They IC: Ok.

You OOC: How would you like to role play this out?

They OOC: FTB please

That is ok.

Okay so this is what I mean

The dickheaded man OOC: "I'd like to have sex with you."
The pretty, sweet woman OOC "Okay."

Great it happens...

Two weeks later (IG weeks)

The pretty, sweet woman sends a telepathic message to the dickheaded man "I'm going to be exclusive with my mate from now on so we won't be having sex anymore."

A few days later (IG days)

The dickheaded man decides to get the pretty, sweet woman drunk. And then starts rubbing under her skirt while she's asleep and drunk.

What is this considered? Some would say this is sexual assault, which is also considered rape in some books. How does Arm define this?

[MeTekillot]

Can we just change 'rape' to 'sexual assault'? What does them formerly having sex have to do with anything?

[LittleLady]

I think, according to the example, it's that fact that ooc consent was given, then ic'ly consent seemed to be taken away. Then, despite no more consent being given the person was taken advantage of.

[slvrmoontiger]

Exactly the case.

[Morgenes]

I was trying to clarify for the simple question of 'is IC consentual rough play or roleplaying of rape OK?'.  I've answered that question because by definition if both sides are consenting to sex, it is not rape.  There are many questions that you can ask including what if they're drunk, or under age, or change their mind, etc..  again, I'm not answering that.  Staff is working on trying to do our best to define this, but it is not an easy answer as it involves defining both 'rape' as well as 'sexual intercourse'.

[slvrmoontiger]

This is what safe words are for.  Double bonus points if you use Armageddon.

*groans* This is soooo far from being funny and so very gross and detestable.

[slvrmoontiger]

I was trying to clarify for the simple question of 'is IC consentual rough play or roleplaying of rape OK?'.  I've answered that question because by definition if both sides are consenting to sex, it is not rape.  There are many questions that you can ask including what if they're drunk, or under age, or change their mind, etc..  again, I'm not answering that.  Staff is working on trying to do our best to define this, but it is not an easy answer as it involves defining both 'rape' as well as 'sexual intercourse'.

Morgenes,

I'm sorry, I guess I misunderstood what you were asking for. Thank you for the information about rough sex that is allowable vs rape that isn't. I'm sorry I misunderstood what you meant.

[Lizzie]

It sounds to me:

If the *characters* are consenting to sex -
then neither of the *characters* are being raped.

If both *players* consent to the above, then there is no problem being created.
If one of the *players* does not consent to the above, then the above cannot happen (or should be faded).
If one of the *players* does not consent to the above, and the above happens anyway, then it should be reported as a player complaint - not of rape - but of unconsented IC sex.

ALSO

If the *characters* are consenting to a rape situation...
then the rape situation is occurring, and this is now against the rules. Consent cannot be given for an IC rape, because IC rape is now verbotten.

HOWEVER

If the *characters* are consenting to a roleplay of rape (Amos and Malik into kinky BDSM play, sure, with safewords and everything)...
then hm. Maybe it's allowed. Maybe it's not, because if Pof Malik gets pissed at Pof Amos one day, Pof Malik could send in a report complaining that his PC was raped - and the logs would indicate that it happened. Should probably get a call on this in advance - I've heard of actually several instances of players who are just really into kinky BDSM roleplay in game and select partners who play their characters as into it as well - until things get out of hand.

[evilcabbage]

He can't say he was raped or send in the character report because he ICly consented to it and the logs prove that, and staff would probably wreck him for wasting their time like that.

[Lizzie]

He can't say he was raped or send in the character report because he ICly consented to it and the logs prove that, and staff would probably wreck him for wasting their time like that.

You're not allowed to ask consent for a rape scene, and you're not allowed to consent to a rape scene. The waters get muddied, when the characters (as  opposed to the players) are enacting a rape scene because the characters (as opposed to the players) are into BDSM and this is just fun kinky sex for the characters.

If they do this - then there is proof via the logs that a rape scene happened. Even though it was supposed to be fun for the *characters* (as opposed to the players), that the characters were just really into rough sex and the characters were consenting, and it wasn't actually really and truly rape ICly..

the logs can be edited to show otherwise (meaning - just start the log one line -after- the lines that ask for and give consent - and you now have a big-ass serious hard-core rape scene).

And this is where things get murky. So the question remains: are *characters* allowed to *roleplay* consenting rape scenes as part of a BDSM lifestyle? Or is kinky rough sex depicting rape, but being actually consenting sex - not allowed anymore?

FYI: I am totally and utterly not into rape scenes, and I usually fade to black even on normal sex scenes, and I usually do -not- consent to torture scenes. But some players are into it for whatever reasons - whether because it enhances roleplay, or because they like to fap, or whatever - it doesn't involve me personally. But knowing that Amos *cannot* rape my character - that it can never happen, it will never happen, and the player will get banned if he does it...kind of makes it feel less believable. The tantalization of the possibility of danger, is often much more attractive than the danger itself. When you eliminate the possibility, you eliminate an entire dimension of roleplay.

[Malken]

the logs can be edited to show otherwise (meaning - just start the log one line -after- the lines that ask for and give consent - and you now have a big-ass serious hard-core rape scene).

In the very tiny slight chance that a player would be so fucked in the head to remove their consenting line after "baiting" someone into raping them, Staff can always check the system logs (after the other player swears on their mother's grave that they DID have consent), and ban the lying player from ever playing the game for life + 1.

Considering that the chance of this ever happening is probably so tiny, I really don't think it's a problem.

[Lizzie]

This is my point though (sorry, I tagged it along at the end of the example):

But knowing that Amos *cannot* rape my character - that it can never happen, it will never happen, and the player will get banned if he does it...kind of makes it feel less believable. The tantalization of the possibility of danger, is often much more attractive than the danger itself. When you eliminate the possibility, you eliminate an entire dimension of roleplay.

Sort of like knowing that sponsored roles in (x/y/z) clan must be mundane only. It's kind of an OOC downer knowing that there's no way in hell that my boss, or my worst enemy, or my best pal, *might* be a mage or a mindbender, that this is not a possibility at all, and it was announced as such on the GDB so EVERYONE else knows it too.

[Mood]

omg is this real

[ShaLeah]

omg is this real

Sadly.

[Narf]

deleted cause I failed my reading comprehension test.

[Desertman]

What if your character is a big mean bad man who is known for bashing in skulls, and the dainty little creature you are wanting to breed with is only saying yes because they are scared of you?

The big bad man says in Sirihish, "So, sure is dark out tonight. Let me walk ya' over into this building. Keep ya' safe." Sinister grin.

The dainty basket weaver says in Sirihish, "Umm, ok...ummm...I'm not to sure......"

The big bad man frowns and says in Sirihish, "I'd be awfully disappointed if ya' turned me down."

The dainty basket weaver says in Sirihish, "Ummm, sounds good then. Which way?"

OOC: Consent to the sex?

OOC: Yes.


We just reached a grey area. It isn't rape, but it isn't exactly jumping up and down and eager for it either. One could argue it is being done out of fear. But no one is being physically forced or even openly threatened, in fact they are being asked and they are agreeing, both in character and out of character. It is the big bad man's reputation that is imposing enough to garner fear. The guy bashes skulls for a living, everyone is afraid of him. One could argue any person he has sex with is only doing it out of fear of the guy because he is evil and a skull basher and everyone knows it.

Very grey area.

(Just sort of playing the Devil's advocate and pointing out possible system issues.)

[BadSkeelz]

Replace "The big bad man" with Noble, Templar, your unit's sergeant, really any authority figure, and you have to ask the same question.

[Desertman]

Replace "The big bad man" with Noble, Templar, your unit's sergeant, really any authority figure, and you have to ask the same question.

Good point.