Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines

[slvrmoontiger]

Just wanted to make sure that Help Consent gets corrected completely so its not confusing. This is what I found on the website. I believe the bolded line should be removed to make it correct.

Consent
(Rules)
There are few restrictions on roleplay in Armageddon. If you choose to roleplay adult situations, that is fine. However, before instigating such an act with another player, please OOC to make sure that the role play is consented to. If someone is instigating roleplay that makes you uncomfortable, please OOC that they should stop. If they continue despite being told to stop, please wish up. This rule is not meant to be abused in order to allow characters to escape death/torture/etc. Perhaps a good analogy is the movie ratings system: some people may wish to see the details acted out in a way which would deserve an R rating while another, younger player might prefer that the details be communicated in an OOC fashion and left offstage.

Rape/Sexual Torture plotlines are not to be played out in the game. You may choose to place such a storyline as background to your pc at creation, however, this cannot be played out in the actual game world. This extends to accusations of rape, as well -- You may not accuse another PC of raping your PC or another PC (or NPC/VNPC for that matter). If you do so, your character will be stored and a discussion will be opened via the request tool as to further action. You may not ask for consent to rape another PC, as these plot lines cannot be pursued in ArmageddonMUD.

In the case of mutilation, an action that would cause a character to lose their ability to function in some way, the victim may request that they be killed by the precedure. It is then the instigator's responsibility to attempt to kill the victim, or take some other appropriate course of action. The victim should not request other punishments, bargain, or otherwise discuss the situation out of character beyond this provision.

If you act out a graphic sequence without first obtaining the other player's consent, and the player then complains within a reasonable amount of time (so that the runlogs can be checked and the complaint verified), you will be banned. If you fail to get consent before a rape plotline or an act of rape, you will be banned. In either case, You will be banned for thirty (30) days for the first offense, permanently for the second offense. If the Producers deem an act that is a first offense especially egregious, you will be permanently banned. Please use common sense and have respect for other people's sensibilities.

See Also:
rules, Producer

I believe that would be the correction that needs to take place. The "you" should then be capitalized to make it the first word of the sentence as I have put above.

[Adhira]

Thanks slvrmoontiger, good catch. Will fix that.

[Calavera]

I'd like to note that for the record, this was not a unanimous decision and there was a lot of consideration put into it. We're aware that discussion around plotlines of this nature in the past has resulted in a lot of interesting and character-developing roleplay for the people involved, such as the log Delirium is referring to. A blanket policy change is always the last resort when people continue to push the envelope because nobody wants to enact a change that affects all players on account of the actions of a few.

Unfortunately it was an issue that was cropping up often enough that it became evident the measures we had in place were not enough.

[Yummri]

No, I have read everything and I am fully relieved that this has been removed from play. In my 3 months here I've had to deal with this a few times. So I can only imagine what staff go through.

But I would like to clarify something. Because while against rape I've never really minded torture as a whole. It fits the setting. So when you say you can't rp sexual torture. Do you mean?

Torture that involves violation of the various sexual organs or just penetration?
Can you rp castration or severing someone's chest so long as it is not an act of rape.

Basically I would like a clear definition of sexual torture (assuming normal torture is still under the consent rules) so that I'll know if people are crossing the line and whatnot.

[HavokBlue]

I'm not a fan of closing this off to consenting people, but in my time playing the game I don't think I've even heard the word 'rape' mentioned, so it doesn't really affect me.

I understand that rape is a horrible thing and that it's shitty to live with and that we may have players living with the awful consequences of such acts... murder and violent assault are equally horrible and shitty and we may have players who have dealt with those things too. I guess I just have trouble understanding the mindset that most people seem to have that rape is the single worst offense you can commit.

[tiptoe]

This:

I understand that rape is a horrible thing and that it's shitty to live with and that we may have players living with the awful consequences of such acts... murder and violent assault are equally horrible and shitty and we may have players who have dealt with those things too. I guess I just have trouble understanding the mindset that most people seem to have that rape is the single worst offense you can commit.

I understand the reasoning behind banning it, but I don't necessarily agree with the decision. I've had characters that were raped in game. While it's not something I really enjoyed, it made for some real character-defining roleplay. I feel like taking out the chance that it could happen to your character completely eliminates an entire aspect of character growth/regression. I suppose it had been happening more than I realize, but in the time I've played it's happened only twice to my characters. And both instances were years ago.

Maybe it's just me, but I've definitely been more upset when my characters were murdered than when they were raped.

[James de Monet]

I guess I just have trouble understanding the mindset that most people seem to have that rape is the single worst offense you can commit.

It's viewed that way because of how personal it is.  It's psychologically awful for the victim in a way that simple violence could never really be.

I'm all for this change, even though I think the preponderance of rape in a world like Zalanthas, where there are few consequences, would be much greater than ours, where the consequences are very high.  Even recognizing the realism and likelihood of it, I just couldn't want to do that, IG.  I don't need that level of realism.  It makes me uncomfortable.

That being said though, I just realized that this means I lose the very best threat off my list of threats to use if I ever play a crime boss IG.  Nuts.  It was a jaw dropper.

[bcw81]

In nearly four years of play the only time I have heard of rape once. And that was between two very consenting PC's. I can see the reasons behind banning this, but at the same time I can't see how this is a problem. If there's no consent, ban the asshole who broke the rules. If this has to deal with bringing people into the plotline... Well, like Havok said, how is that worse than murder or torture? At that point in the story the act is done and all that's left is the cleanup.

And again, I need to ask staff for an answer on this:
As a soldier type PC, is saying "I want to go murder, rape, and pillage the enemy holdings and citizenry!" against the rules?

[Adhira]

bcw81 - if a soldier type PC is saying that then we probably aren't going to ban them. But then, it's really not that hard to just say  "I want to go murder, and pillage the enemy holdings and citizenry!", is it?

Again, this wasn't a quick decision.  It is primarily based on the fact that we as staff do not wish to deal with the issues that arise in this area.  We have tried other ways to deal with it, they are not working. I'm sorry that some people are feeling we've removed something from the game that they did not wish to see removed.   You will find staff in some agreement with many of the assessments here. Yes, murder is horrible too. However, murder in this game does not result in the amount of player angst and staff time that this topic does.

[Qzzrbl]

Whelp.

The gith sure got a lot less scary.

Are we still cool with taking advantage of corpses/critters?

[jstorrie]

We already make many compromises that favor fun gameplay over 'muh realism,' and this one makes more sense than most of them. Good policy change.

[Patuk]

Even if I'm not someone who'd ask for the banning of storylines of these myself, I can see why the decision's been made, and I'm not really going to miss it.

On the other hand, one of my characters has been accused of rape before, and it lead to ridiculous IC silliness to the point where staff told me to send in a character report on the spot explaining what went on. I can see how, should such cases be more common, staff would get tired of dealing with it.

[Cutthroat]

While I think it should always be a potential threat to be considered by PCs (even if only virtually, just as we assume that death by chest decay or childbirth is possible), I understand the reasons for not wanting to deal with it in the non-virtual world, and support the decision to ban that avenue of roleplay. 

That said, how hard-line are we being? Would allusions to the potential of it happening (as opposed to actual threats) be treated as a rule-breaking action?

Unfortunately, this seems a bit muddy/awkward to enforce in the kind of gameworld we have, where such actions are commonplace and a very real threat (and with an entire sub-race, half-elves, often born of the act). There is going to be a grey area no matter what, and honestly I liked where we had it before; it existed, but you weren't forced to participate in such a storyline if it wasn't something you were able to stomach playing out (nor would I, personally, ever want to).

Thank you for wording that better than I ever could have. A hard line against this is a bit... Aggravating in the world we play in. If anything, I think instead of a hard line, this should just require the same type of consent dismemberment requires - In that if someone says no, it's not happening. Not virtually, not faded, just not happening. And that should extend to any form of accusations of rape or the like (maybe sent through staff in occurrences where you might not want to let the person know you're accusing them.)

A hard line really does muddy the waters.

Except for consent for accusations, that already was the rule. Looking at it from a plotline generation perspective, while it was technically IC to rape someone, or sic a mob on someone by accusing them of rape, or ruin someone's reputation, etc., it really brings things down in terms of what is possible for plotting. Staff gave people in Allanak and Tuluk a wide variety of tools and methods for PCs to act out against each other (and recently improved that in Tuluk with the new shadow artist system). Why should we have access to this lowest common denominator of plots, which is frankly uncreative and more OOCly disturbing, when there are simply more interesting things to do?

[Pale Horse]

My first impression was that in a supposedly "harsh world" eliminating one of the possibly more pervasive acts of harshness from the hands of the player-base will, by the act-ban alone, take away from the "harshness" just by removing even the possibility of fear of it happening to "them/their character."  It was the freedom and even the option to have to deal with harsh consequences that was one of the reasons that drew me to the game in the beginning; that someone respected us enough to handle it and leave it open.

That being said, almost anyone in the military can tell you that any of the "stupid rules" we commonly have to comply with are due to the actions of a few that became enough of a problem for leadership, beyond the measures put in place that the majority found to be acceptable and so lived with, that they had to institute a blanket ban.  Someone ruined it for everyone.  I am not a fan of blanket bans, but I understand them and have sat in on meetings where the decision was made.  It is never an easy thing and I will respect our Staffs' decision.

I'd like to go on the record and state that I consider rape to be an enormously vile act, and I am glad I have not had an experience where another player asked to role-play the scene.  If in reality you and another consenting adult enjoy the role-play, that is your business.  I will (or would have, before the ban) exercise my own option of declining such.

Edited for grammar and typos.

[Barzalene]

 :'(I'm glad. Lately its been pervasive, inspiring (in me) anger, eye rolling and feelings of general ickiness.

It happened, recently, with such frequency that I wondered if there wasa sadistic pay off. I think there was. I'm glad it got shut down.

[joyofdiscord]

This is fantastic news and a great Christmas present!  Explaining Arm to friends just got a whole lot easier.

I'm not worried about the pervasive harshness because this particular type of harshness was so heavily gender-colored in a world where we're supposed to have equality of gender.  I almost always witnessed plotlines like this as the last resort of a male PC to put a female PC in her place, and it usually comes across as a cheap way to add drama.  We have no shortage of harshness and cruelty to unleash on each other.

Has no place in the game, adds very little or nothing, and the few plotlines that may have been enriched by it are a small price to pay.  The consent compromise, while well-meaning, can come across as extortion because it sounds like "let me do my rape emotes or I'll kill your PC."

Thank you staff for this great decision!

[Desertman]

Gage Gritshaw was a hardcore rapist to the point that it was the only way he could get his jollies.

Never once roleplayed a rape. Never sexually assaulted a PC other than this one time I put my junk on some dame's face in a sparring match. But that was more for comedic relief for a group and nothing sexual.

But a lot of virtual NPC dames got the raping from Gage Gritshaw.

Why? Because Gage Gritshaw was the UGLY side of things manifested from the virtual vnpc world into the PC world.

He was the reason you don't let your kids go out at night. Because there are worse things than death.

Death is so common place in Zalanthas, killing people doesn't get you villain status. It gets you criminal status. It isn't the same thing. Murderers are a dime a dozen.

Theft is such a low end crime on the morality scale as the be laughable.

I suppose betrayal can still garner up the sort of emotions needed to make someone truly disgusted by your PC, but, it isn't the same. But still, in the PC world, it is the norm, it isn't the exception. Most of the time it is yawn inducing at best.

Torture is possibly on the same villain scale as rape, but only if the torturer is truly good at what they do, and even then, you would have to do it in front of an audience to get the sort of lasting affects you want on the general population's psyche. Most of the time if you tell someone you tortured someone and you are a torturer, it is again so common place on Zalanthas as to make them take another drink and ignore you.

You know what makes people truly fear you/disgusted by you/really hate your PC on an OOC level? The kind of reaction you want from the person behind the keyboard when you are playing a villain?

Tell them you are that part of society that not even most hardened murderers will back up.

I did a fair amount of psychology research into the mindset of real life villains before I wrote up that character and decided to play him. You know the one group of psychos that even the other psychos are disgusted by in prison?

The rapists.

I'm not even sure which side I'm arguing for here to be honest. I just wanted to throw out the idea that "censoring" things is a slippery slope, especially when they are universally censored.

Gage Gritshaw could not exist without me being banned in this new system. You will never see that sort of villain again. They are no longer allowed in the game. And that PC never once roleplayed a rape or anything related to a rape. Not once.

Then again, when I tell you I researched the psychology of how to truly disgust even the most disgusting of individuals to make the people behind their keyboards at home have an emotional response to my PC.....it might be a good thing that I can't do that anymore. Maybe I was going too far.

I do think that saying, "Well, you can't even reference the idea that your pc was raped in the virtual world or that your pc was involved in a rape in their past in the virtual world." Is a bit too much.

In the end I don't suppose it has much to do with rape. It has more to do with the idea that my roleplay is being censored, when no pc's are even involved and I'm not even doing anything to anyone else's characters.

I am 100% on board with banning rape from the game in the sense that it can no longer happen between two PC's. That wasn't going to affect my roleplay anyways. Ban the crap out of it. I don't want to be involved in that, and I really don't think most other people do either.

The whole, "You can't even reference rape in a virtual sense now to play certain types of PC's.", is just sort of "soft-core" to me. That doesn't feel like Armageddon or Zalanthas.

[Barzalene]

There is still cannabalism, infanticide and (what I liked best about GG) a general willingness to step past people's boundaries and be mean. It doesn't sound as horrifying. It actually does make people uncomfortable.

[Barzalene]

There is still cannabalism, infanticide and (what I liked best about GG) a general willingness to step past people's boundaries and be mean. It doesn't sound as horrifying. It actually does make people uncomfortable.

Even I will admit this sounds a bit wimpy when you say it out loud. But it really can be disconcerting when someone violates the norms that are taken for granted.

[Inks]

I'm for banning PC rape plots,  but against banning it and being able to mention it in a vnpc way, as desertman said. I am really worried soon we won't be able to cut out someone's eye and such.

I have never played a rapist and it doesn't interest me but I dunno,  I guess imms have been seeing a lot of rape lately and they see the big picture, I am a bit worried about the world seeming less scary though.

[Lizzie]

There is still cannabalism, infanticide and (what I liked best about GG) a general willingness to step past people's boundaries and be mean. It doesn't sound as horrifying. It actually does make people uncomfortable.

There's still cannabalism, infanticide, and the willingness to be mean, until the next wave of over- and under- sensitive players shows up and butt heads. This didn't used to be a big issue. Sometimes change is a good thing. Sometimes, it's nothing more than the slippery slope to Disneyfication. I think we're right on the edge of that slope. I really hope we don't spiral down.

[KankWhisperer]

I am usually the first to poo poo such changes but considering I've never seen a rape in 10+ years and only heard about it maybe three times I can barely muster a "meh".

From recent experience I blame us players for doing it then treating it with our Western values. "OMHL he's a rapist, do something!" Mob ensues and hijacks all other role play while filthy witches run free, slaves are maimed and beaten bloody, murderers stack up the pile, and everyone ignores the small children with bloated bellies starving in the blazing sun.

[Cutthroat]

Slippery slope is a fallacious argument in this case. There is a "middle ground" in that staff isn't seeking to ban other types of plots or actions, nor do they have a habit of doing so. They are not even focused on rape per se, just in eliminating the abuse of rape as a plot device in the game. If the only sure way to do that is to ban its use then that is how it should be.

[Desertman]

Slippery slope is a fallacious argument in this case. There is a "middle ground" in that staff isn't seeking to ban other types of plots or actions, nor do they have a habit of doing so. They are not even focused on rape per se, just in eliminating the abuse of rape as a plot device in the game. If the only sure way to do that is to ban its use then that is how it should be.

- You cannot ask someone for consent to rape their pc.
- You cannot accuse an PC, NPC or VNPC of raping your character.
- You cannot sit in a tavern and tell the story of your PC being raped.
- You cannot play out a rape storyline even if the other person you are playing with is consenting.
- You cannot persecute another PC, NPC or VNPC for rape, because rape should not be part of an active storyline.
- If you include rape in your pc's background it should remain as that, background.  You can use it to shape your pc's world view, you cannot use it as a motivation to kill all tall, muscular men because they have reminded you of a terrible situation.

I bolded the areas that are being eliminated from the game regardless of the fact they wouldn't be PC to PC plot devices. They would be PC to VNPC/NPC plot devices, and atmospheric at best.

I suppose I could sit around roleplaying my entire storyline with my VNPC rape offenders/victims, but, I doubt I would be submitting requests to have resolutions put in place to keep my VNPC and NPC offenders from offending me further, since I sort of control them.

[boog]

I can see why it was stopped, staffwise. I admin(ned) on other games that don't EVER allow this sort of thing and when it crops up once every half a decade, it's a PITA to deal with.

But, then, I can also see the players' views, that is has eliminated a facet of a harsh world and that it stifles character development and the fact to be scared of a certain part of the world.

Being a victim of this IRL has never made me reluctant about it happening in game, but I can certainly see how it would for other players. I most certainly could.

So, I dunno. I'm on the "I don't know what I'm fighting for," argument with D-man here.